Talk:David Raymond

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A fact from David Raymond appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 23 May 2024 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the 2024 inductees to the Delaware Sports Museum and Hall of Fame include a man with Down syndrome who has lifted 425 pounds (193 kg) (pictured), an "average gymnast" turned Olympics judge, a "preeminent sportswriter", the state's "greatest high hurdler", the "inventor" of the modern sports mascot, a record-setting 10-year-old, a champion gymnast, an Olympic field hockey player, and a pro baseball player in five countries?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2024/May. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/David Raymond.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 23:26, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

( Comment or view )

( Article history links:

)

Jonathan Stoklosa with then-U.S. vice president Joe Biden

... that this year's inductees to the Delaware Sports Museum and Hall of Fame include someone with Down syndrome who can lift up to 425 pounds (193 kg) (pictured, left), an "average gymnast" turned one of the world's best gymnastics judges, Delaware's "preeminent sportswriter", the state's "greatest high hurdler", the man who "practically invented the modern sports mascot", a record-setting 10-year-old, a U.S. champion gymnast, an Olympic field hockey player, and a professional baseball player in five countries? Source: see all the respective articles
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Grave with the Hands; Template:Did you know nominations/National Women's Basketball Association; Template:Did you know nominations/Iona Allen; Template:Did you know nominations/Drew Golz (2/3); Template:Did you know nominations/New England Revolution in international competition; Template:Did you know nominations/Ukraina, North Dakota (2/2); Template:Did you know nominations/List of presidents of Centre College; Template:Did you know nominations/Chesterfield Market
- Comment: Trying my craziest DYK nomination ever! Have been working on all the inductees for this year, only just realized that it'd probably be an awesome mega-hook (there has been precedent for similar things in the past; see Wikipedia:Did you know/Multiple Article Hook Hall of Fame). Note that two do not yet qualify (Van Sickle, Brumbaugh - why I haven't bolded yet), as I still need to 5x expand them, but I needed to make the nomination now so the oldest one (Raymond) would still be eligible. I also have a date request if this goes through: the hall of fame is inducting the mentioned sportspeople on May 23 this year. I think it would be really neat if this could be scheduled for then. Thanks!

Moved to mainspace by BeanieFan11 (talk).

Number of QPQs required: 2. DYK is currently in unreviewed backlog mode and nominator has 152 past nominations.

Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:56, 21 March 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Reviewing.
Despite what the bot/tool says, you owe 10 QPQs as you seem to already be aware.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:10, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for offering to review – just note that ~~Van Sickle and~~ Brumbaugh are not yet ready – I'll make sure to 5x them within the next three days (nominated now so as to not exhaust 7-day eligibility of Raymond). BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:12, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - Gotcha. Well done.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I forgot to say let me know when all the articles are ready for evaluation.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
5x expanded Caitlin Van Sickle (calculated it needed to be 7,725+ – currently ~8,200). Just Brumbaugh left to do. BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Expanding Brumbaugh is taking longer than I thought, but I'm almost certain I can have it done by the end of tomorrow. BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:26, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Was able to finish Brumbaugh tonight. Needed to be 10,725, now is at ~13,000 bytes. @TonyTheTiger: All the articles are ready for review now. (Still have to do the QPQs, of course). Also, tell me your thoughts of the date request I mentioned? Thanks! BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Collapsing individual article reviews as everything was addressed. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The DYK tool gives the following results:

David Raymond, 3177 characters created by BeanieFan11 on March 13, 2024
- WP:AGF on hook quote claim.
- Maybe revise 'the man who "practically invented the modern sports mascot"' to 'the "inventor" of the modern sports mascot'
- 41.9% copyvio result stems from direct quotations that are presented with proper WP:ICs.
Jonathan Stoklosa, 1996 characters created by BeanieFan11 on March 18, 2024
- I am a former competitive powerlifter myself. I have deadlifted 600 lbs, but that was a career personal best. I can not now. I think "can lift up to 425 pounds" should be changed to "has lifted 425 pounds" (sources confirmed)
  - Changed the hook. BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:22, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- 14.5% copyvio result stems from poor paraphrasing. Often times the exact phrasing of the source is used, but not at a too problematic level. Better paraphrasing is encouraged.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:42, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - Any better? BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    - The new copyvio result is 9.1% so yes better.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:58, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cheryl Hamilton, 2574 characters created by BeanieFan11 on March 17, 2024
- Can we tigten up "turned one of the world's best gymnastics judges" to "turned Olympic games judge", which has a more encyclopedic and neutral tone (sources confirmed).
- 18% copyvio result from quotation and Official terminology and names.
Kevin Tresolini, 2647 characters created by BeanieFan11 on March 21, 2024
- Can we shorten 'Delaware's "preeminent sportswriter"' to 'a "preeminent sportswriter"'? (sources confirmed)
- 9.9% copyvio result all good.
Eric Cannon, 2496 characters created by BeanieFan11 on March 17, 2024
- I am trying to understand his greatness. I know in swimming top 8 is All-American and 9-16 is honorable mention All-American for each event (learned researching Kelly Hecking). I know A-A is for track and am not sure about hmA-A. Are his six A-As all top 8? Were any top 3? I assume at least one was. I would also link to NCAA Division I Men's Outdoor Track and Field Championships, NCAA Division I Men's Indoor Track and Field Championships and specific years as well as Delaware Interscholastic Athletic Association. (sources confirmed)
  - It doesn't seem clear all his placements, although he won silver at least once per [1]. Could you specify where I am to link each of those terms? I'm not quite seeing where I would do so. BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    - The individual years are not fleshed out on WP. Those are just links for the prose of the article not for the hook. It is just an article improvement suggestion beyond anything you need to do for DYK. I think I need to add those links to the Wilcher article too.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- If he had multiple top 3s, you could do something like what I did at Randall Cunningham II with medals in the infobox.
- 3.8% copyvio result all good.
I am the Thomas Wilcher article creator. You have motivated me to dig up some NCAA results. Here are two indoor All-American (top 8) finishes: [2], [3].
Here is where to find the outdoor results: https://www.ustfccca.org/meets-results/meet-history?series=3369.
Gary Chelosky, 1942 characters created by BeanieFan11 on March 19, 2024
- Source confirmed.
- 3.8% copyvio result all good.
Marcy Levine, 2075 characters created by BeanieFan11 on March 20, 2024
- NCAA women's gymnastics tournament? Link it. Even only one National or international championship deserves some medals bling in the infobox. Maccabiah Games and maybe AIAW too. (source confirmed)
  - Linked. Tried adding in the medals as well. BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:05, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- 3.8% copyvio result all good.
Caitlin Van Sickle, 8266 characters moved from User:Knope7/sandbox/Caitlin Van Snickle on August 11, 2016, expansion began 22 edits ago on March 22, 2024
- previously 1547 characters (required 7735 for 5x)
- Source confirmed.
- 18% copyvio result from quotation and Official terminology and names.
Cliff Brumbaugh, 14345 characters created by Deiz on June 8, 2007, expansion began 38 edits ago on March 24, 2024
- previously 2143 characters (required 10715 for 5x)
- The phrase "10 hits, four RBIs, two hits and one home run" can not be right.
  - Fixed. BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- This infobox could host more highlights, MVPs and All-league or All-start honrs.
  - Per the Del. Sports HOF, Brumbaugh was a five-time minor league all-star and four-time all-star in Asia; however, the years aren't mentioned. We know three of the minor league all-star selections (1995, 1999, 2010) – he also was MVP in at least 1995 and 2010. As for the Asian leagues, it seems we know 2003 and 2004, but the other years are less certain. We also know a bunch of honors from HS/college. What do you suggest? BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Source confirmed.
- 12.3% copyvio result from poor paraphrasing.
  - Are you referring to the Baseball-Reference.com link? Its just two basic sentences that I'm not sure could be reworded differently, and the match is half a machine-generated part at the end, while the other half, I'm not sure how they consider that a match. Thoughts? BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    - The issue is the verbatim copying of the phrase "Brumbaugh was drafted by the Texas Rangers in the 13th round of the 1995". Just paraphrase that.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:34, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      - Is this better? BeanieFan11 (talk) 03:13, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

- - The date request window is 6 weeks, I believe. So you can only request dates within 6 weeks of the date that you nominate a hook. You can read further about special occaision requests at WP:DYKSO.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:03, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    - Crap! I was never aware of that! And just two weeks off. Is it possible to IAR, something? One of the main reasons I nominated this was in hope that it could be set for that date... BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:06, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      - It says exceptions to the six-week limit can be implemented by way of a local consensus at WT:DYK. I'll open a discussion about it once the reviewing is done. BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:09, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Collapsing lengthy ALT talk that is moot with the below proposals. BeanieFan11 (talk) 03:13, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The way revisions work you do not usually change any version. Instead, each revision is presented as a distinct nomination preceded by ALT# with number starting at 1. On occaision slight variations might not change number, but rather add letters like ALT2B.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:31, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ALT1 ... that this year's inductees to the Delaware Sports Museum and Hall of Fame include someone with Down syndrome who has lifted up to 425 pounds (193 kg) (pictured, left), an "average gymnast" turned one of the world's best gymnastics judges, Delaware's "preeminent sportswriter", the state's "greatest high hurdler", the man who "practically invented the modern sports mascot", a record-setting 10-year-old, a U.S. champion gymnast, an Olympic field hockey player, and a professional baseball player in five countries?
ALT1A ... that this year's inductees to the Delaware Sports Museum and Hall of Fame include someone with Down syndrome who has lifted 425 pounds (193 kg) (pictured, left), an "average gymnast" turned one of the world's best gymnastics judges, Delaware's "preeminent sportswriter", the state's "greatest high hurdler", the man who "practically invented the modern sports mascot", a record-setting 10-year-old, a U.S. champion gymnast, an Olympic field hockey player, and a professional baseball player in five countries?
- OK, then with the gymnastics update, there'd be:
- ALT2 ... that this year's inductees to the Delaware Sports Museum and Hall of Fame include someone with Down syndrome who has lifted up to 425 pounds (193 kg) (pictured, left), an "average gymnast" turned Olympic Games gymnastic judge, Delaware's "preeminent sportswriter", the state's "greatest high hurdler", the man who "practically invented the modern sports mascot", a record-setting 10-year-old, a U.S. champion gymnast, an Olympic field hockey player, and a professional baseball player in five countries?
- ALT2A ... that this year's inductees to the Delaware Sports Museum and Hall of Fame include someone with Down syndrome who has lifted 425 pounds (193 kg) (pictured, left), an "average gymnast" turned Olympic Games gymnastic judge, Delaware's "preeminent sportswriter", the state's "greatest high hurdler", the man who "practically invented the modern sports mascot", a record-setting 10-year-old, a U.S. champion gymnast, an Olympic field hockey player, and a professional baseball player in five countries?
- BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:36, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How about, so we don't end up with a million ALTs, I'll list each of the different options for each article below and we'll decide what's best? So:
- David Raymond: (a) the man who "practically invented the modern sports mascot", or (b) the "inventor" of the modern sports mascot
- Jonathan Stoklosa: (a) someone with Down syndrome who can lift up to 425 pounds (193 kg), (b) someone with Down syndrome who has lifted up to 425 pounds (193 kg), or (c) someone with Down syndrome who has lifted 425 pounds (193 kg)
- Cheryl Hamilton: (a) an "average gymnast" turned one of the world's best gymnastics judges, or (b) an "average gymnast" turned Olympic Games gymnastic judge
- Kevin Tresolini: (a) the state's "preeminent sportswriter", or (b) a "preeminent sportswriter"
- Eric Cannon: (a) the state's "greatest high hurdler"
- Gary Chelosky: (a) a record-setting 10-year-old
- Marcy Levine: (a) a U.S. champion gymnast
- Caitlin Van Sickle: (a) an Olympic field hockey player
- Cliff Brumbaugh: (a) a professional baseball player in five countries
BeanieFan11 (talk) 20:44, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Your hook is generally confirmed with all facts cited properly. Please tweak it per my suggestions and propose new ALTs.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:43, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the review - will make sure to get to everything soon. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:09, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All articles are well-cited.
All articles are generally neutral.
A few articles need better paraphrasing. Some elements of the hook need to be more concise. I have also made some cleanup suggestions surrounding infobox improvement possibilities.
QPQs pending.
Can someone with the perms switch the image to this high-quality version found here? I don't have the permissions. Bremps... 06:19, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:26, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TonyTheTiger: I believe I've addressed each of your comments about the quality of the articles. I also completed all 10 QPQs. Let me know if there's any other issues. BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @TonyTheTiger: In case you didn't get the previous ping. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:55, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
QPQs look good although you have not signed off on my third article yet.
Where is the latest hook?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:51, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- @TonyTheTiger: Responded to Brumbaugh; you said for Cannon the medals thing was something for outside of DYK, so I hope you'll be alright if I just make that a task for later?; as for the ALTs, here appear to be the possibilities:
  - ALT3 ... that this year's inductees to the Delaware Sports Museum and Hall of Fame include someone with Down syndrome who has lifted 425 pounds (193 kg) (pictured, left), an "average gymnast" turned Olympic Games gymnastic judge, a "preeminent sportswriter", the state's "greatest high hurdler", the man who "practically invented the modern sports mascot", a record-setting 10-year-old, a U.S. champion gymnast, an Olympic field hockey player, and a professional baseball player in five countries?
  - ALT4 ... that this year's inductees to the Delaware Sports Museum and Hall of Fame include someone with Down syndrome who has lifted up to 425 pounds (193 kg) (pictured, left), an "average gymnast" turned Olympic Games gymnastic judge, a "preeminent sportswriter", the state's "greatest high hurdler", the man who "practically invented the modern sports mascot", a record-setting 10-year-old, a U.S. champion gymnast, an Olympic field hockey player, and a professional baseball player in five countries?
  - ALT5 ... that this year's inductees to the Delaware Sports Museum and Hall of Fame include someone with Down syndrome who has lifted up to 425 pounds (193 kg) (pictured, left), an "average gymnast" turned Olympic Games gymnastic judge, a "preeminent sportswriter", the state's "greatest high hurdler", the "inventor" of the modern sports mascot, a record-setting 10-year-old, a U.S. champion gymnast, an Olympic field hockey player, and a professional baseball player in five countries?
  - ALT6 ... that this year's inductees to the Delaware Sports Museum and Hall of Fame include someone with Down syndrome who has lifted 425 pounds (193 kg) (pictured, left), an "average gymnast" turned Olympic Games gymnastic judge, a "preeminent sportswriter", the state's "greatest high hurdler", the "inventor" of the modern sports mascot, a record-setting 10-year-old, a U.S. champion gymnast, an Olympic field hockey player, and a professional baseball player in five countries?
- Thoughts? BeanieFan11 (talk) 03:13, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First, the image file is properly PD.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:48, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave it to the promoter to decide between the various tweaks. I would prefer the shortest just because of the overall length of the hook, but the promoter is free to make the final choice. I remain intrigued and await further detail on Cannon as time permits. Nothing is necessary now though, but keep in mind when this goes on the main page, it may be the most pageviews that any of these pages ever receives. You may want to put everything you can into it before the main page run to get feedback from all those eyeballs. Everything is in order for a DYK run. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Great. Thanks for the reviews. I'm going to open a discussion about getting this featured on the requested date, as mentioned at the DYK guidelines. So to anyone looking at this: don't promote yet! BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:28, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - Follow-up: the consensus was in favor of allowing the special occasion request, so this can be promoted for the requested date when the appropriate prep becomes available sometime in the next few days. (Promoter: please be sure to add a comment to the hook in prep so people know it's a special occasion request and don't try to move it to another date. Thanks.) BlueMoonset (talk) 04:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    - At 471 prose characters, I think even ALT6 can be made more brief; it's currently the length of three long hooks. While I'm admittedly not sure of reducing "professional" to "pro" in Brumbaugh (though "five" to "5" is standard at DYK), the Stoklosa "someone" can certain be "a man", and "turned Olympic Games gymnastic judge" in Hamilton can easily be "turned Olympics judge"; I've also removed "U.S." from Levine, since she wasn't the U.S. Champion but she won an event in a national collegiate championship, taking it down to 438:
      - ALT7: ... that this year's inductees to the Delaware Sports Museum and Hall of Fame include a man with Down syndrome who has lifted 425 pounds (193 kg) (pictured, left), an "average gymnast" turned Olympics judge, a "preeminent sportswriter", the state's "greatest high hurdler", the "inventor" of the modern sports mascot, a record-setting 10-year-old, a champion gymnast, an Olympic field hockey player, and a pro baseball player in 5 countries? —BlueMoonset (talk) 05:33, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]