Talk:Daoshi

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2019 and 23 March 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Qjhua, Wtrandal, Irbirb15.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:02, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

archived talk

/archive 1 by Dcattell (talk) 21:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Town Daoshi (zh:岛石镇)

Note that there's also a town named Daoshi - see zh:岛石镇 --katpatuka (talk) 18:03, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Mistranslation

HI @Timmyshin: Unfortunately, the recent move from "Daoshi" to "Taoists" was mistaken. Many dictionaries and encyclopedias translate Dàoshi 道士 as "Daoist priest" or "Daoist master". Are there any RS that translate it as "Taoists"? Keahapana (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I see what you are saying now. Is it OK to move it to Taoist priest (the unambiguous common name per [1]) and disambiguate Taoist/Taoists? Timmyshin (talk) 00:39, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I think it should be Daoshi, which means more than "Daoist priest". As you know, most Chinese words don't have one-to-one English translation equivalents. For instance, Wenlin gives: "道士 Dàoshi {E} n. ①Daoist priest ②fortune teller; diviner ③virtuous person". While Google Ngram is wonderful for comparing English variations like "Daoist priest" and "Taoist priest", it doesn't work with Chinese romanizations, searching for "Daoshi" not only finds 道士, but also 到时 "by that time", "on the contrary", 导师 "teacher", etc. Best wishes, Keahapana (talk) 19:02, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Timmyshin: I think that the title should be kept daoshi for the reasons expressed by Keahapana. The basic translation of daoshi provided in the lede should be "Taoist" (since tradtionally there are no lay "Taoists"). Not all of them are "monks", so "Taoist monk" should not be given as a direct translation of daoshi.--Aethelwolf Emsworth (talk) 12:17, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Timmyshin: Please restore the title to "daoshi" and revert all the cases in which it was replaced with "Taoist priest" in articles. Both me and Keahapana have put forward reasons according to which "daoshi" is a better choice.--Aethelwolf Emsworth (talk) 14:01, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

• Hi, I don't know why but I missed your ping in March. I'm afraid I don't see a valid reason in favor of "Daoshi". Keahapana's argument that "Daoshi" can mean many disparate things (also see katpatuka's post on this page) is actually reason to NOT use it per WP:AT. As my Ngram shows, "Taoist priest" is also far more common in English-language literature than the ambiguous "Daoshi". Are you concerned that "Taoist priest" refers to something different (which I assume is what you are suggesting but I'm not sure)? The different meanings of "Daoshi" can be taken care of by a disambiguation page, which I will create right now. Timmyshin (talk) 21:41, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Regardless of where the article is located, Daoshi should at least be a redirect to this page. The other uses are minor and should be relegated to a disambiguation page. -Zanhe (talk) 19:54, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

@Timmyshin: If we have necessarily to use an English word in place of the Chinese term as the title of the article, let's use "Professional Taoist" or better simply "Taoist", with the literal meaning of daoshi being "master of the Tao" — note that with the Western suffix "-ist" it means one who lives "according to" or "by" the Tao, so it perfectly renders the Chinese term. In Chinese there are no "Taoist priests" (note that "priest" originally means "presbyter", i.e. "elder") in a Western sense simply because traditionally there are no masses of "lay Taoists". The things may have been changing since the mid-20th century, but this is still the norm among the vast majority of the Chinese, and the use of "Taoist priest" may give the false impression that in Taoism there is a distinction between "priests" and "laypeople". Then the lede should specify that daoshi may be celibate monks living in monasteries or married priests living among the population.--Aethelwolf Emsworth (talk) 18:14, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

"traditionally there are no masses of "lay Taoists" Do you have a source for that? "Professional Taoist" is uncommon in English per Ngram. Timmyshin (talk) 02:16, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

"Daoshi" is the only appropriate title for this page, as already discussed. Like Fangshi, there are too many translations for an English title. Keahapana (talk) 20:00, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, articles titles are based on WP:COMMONNAMEs. As already discussed, "Taoist priest" is far more common than "Daoshi" in English-language literature. And contrary to what Zanhe says, looks like at least 1/4 of the Gbook hits for "Daoshi" are about the 7th century Buddhist author of Fayuan Zhulin (i.e.道世), therefore it also fails WP:PRECISE. If there are many English translations you can include all in the article, regardless of the title. I see only 1 in Wiktionary though. Timmyshin (talk) 02:09, 27 June 2018 (UTC)