Talk:Czech Republic/Archive 13

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Archive 13

What arguments for keeping Czech Republic as the name - still stands strong today?

More and more, the country is referred to as Czechia. I myself was a part of the RM discussion, which rejected the move. I am interested in whether we could have some comments surrounding the page name arguing for why it should be not be changed. If not, I think it's in it's place to once again reconsider the page name.

Bests, thomediter Thomediter (talk) 16:43, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Please see the above discussion, #Rename to Czechia as Germany, France, Slovakia or Poland, and all the previous discussions in this talk page's archives before suggesting a move, and, if you do suggest a move, have evidence that the situation has evolved since this was last discussed here only 8 months ago. Please do not antagonize everyone with this article on their watchlist by rehashing old arguments without consideration as to whether there are new developments that would warrant a different outcome. Largoplazo (talk) 16:52, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Fwiw, Google trends hasn't changed much since last discussion. Consider checking and considering again 6-12 months after the 2024 Summer Olympics, since the last Eurovision obviously didn't do the trick [1]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:27, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

And the Czechia still lives! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:35, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång It has died today. Today I wrote there, today they solved it. Often, it is better to try to correct mistakes and alert the person making them rather than mocking them. But it was still just a false problem, why not allow Czechia on Wikipedia because someone random used it with "the", another false problem will appear right away >:| Chrz (talk) 15:05, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Still funny that it was the about-page of that org. Oh well, there's always memorials like [2]. Fwiw, I don't consider me mentioning a typo at their website "mocking" the Czech Olympic Committee. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:59, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Consider writing the EU next, there are 4 "the Czechia" at [3]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:12, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Change "Czech Republic" to "Czechia". And they did. The word "The" is not used on signs and plates even for countries with "the," right?! I don't know what's so special about "that" org. It's as if this one subpage is supposed to be more important only when it's wrong. Now that it's right, it's OBVIOUSLY insignificant and secondary >:/ I also wrote to the EU, now we'll see the differences in communication with institutions. Although again, if (when) the EU page gets it right, it will miraculously become insignificant. Chrz (talk) 20:34, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree a lot with what Chrz is saying Thomediter (talk) 21:47, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I am not trying to restart RM, I just wish the practice would end where insignificant obstacles are put in the way, meaning sources that have a miraculous power "against" but then have no weight "for". Either they are important for any party in the dispute or they are not important at all and it's not worth discussing them here. Chrz (talk) 22:31, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Eventually, the page will be re-named Czechia. Remember it took quite a few RMs (and years) to finally get Burma re-named Myanmar. GoodDay (talk) 20:36, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Racism. I'm completely serious. There are no reasons to deliberately use an old and rejected name now that the proper name is widely used and accepted everywhere. Except if you have a sense of superiority over the people of Czechia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.18.223.41 (talk) 22:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Then you're completely serious about something ridiculous. To the best of my knowledge, Czechs are white. Charges of racism usually arise in situations involving white people actually or reportedly discriminating against non-white people. If that's not the case here, which race of Wikipedia editors do you think are discriminating against them?

Where did you get the idea that "Czech Republic" has been rejected? It remains the country's official long-form name! The only change is that they adopted an official short-form name as well.

I'm looking at the web page of the Czech Convention Bureau. They refer to the country as "Czech Republic". Are they self-racist?

When you say "There are no reasons", the reasons have already been explained at nauseating length in previous discussions on this matter. They don't disappear just because one person declares them not to exist.

None of the points you've made here have any connection to reality. Largoplazo (talk) 22:49, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

That's an official page of the country's state tourism agency, and it uses the term "Czech Republic" all over.[4] — kashmīrī ^TALK 06:09, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Throwing around words like "racism" is not the way to make friends and influence people on Wikipedia. This discussion has gone on for a very long while, and it's not going to go away soon, and sometimes it is annoying, but at least we can say that the main contributors on both sides are acting in good faith and with mutual respect. We will change the name when a majority of voices on this page are convinced by the facts. Doric Loon (talk) 01:13, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 December 2023

Change Central Europe to Eastern Europe 89.24.32.30 (talk) 17:57, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Assuming you mean as in "Czech Republic is in Central Europe." According Central Europe, that seems good enough, though like with "how many continents are there?", there are other definitions. Why would it be better for this WP-article to change like you suggest? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:17, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Calling Czechoslovakia "Eastern European" was cold war thinking, when the iron curtain traced a simplistic political divide between east and west. But both before and since the Warsaw Pact era, the West Slavic peoples have thought of themselves as Central European. Because Europe goes much further East than you maybe think it does. Doric Loon (talk) 14:10, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

It depends on 1) whether Russia (in whole or in part) is accounted for in the various _____ Europe regions, 2) how many such regions you are using, 3) which regions they are, and 4) where you draw the lines. I can conceive of definitions for the Czech Republic to be in eastern, central, or western Europe.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 22:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Both Russia and Czech are Eastern European. Undashing (talk) 03:53, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

You're missing the point. These named regions do not necessarily correspond to literal geographic chunks of particular continents. I have seen geography text books that separate Russia into its own section and then divide the remainder of Europe into various regions. In these systems, the Eastern European region DOES NOT include Russia. Even though, technically, Russia IS (partially) in the eastern portion of the generally accepted continent of Europe. User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 05:34, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Partially my ass. Russia is the largest country in Europe.

And Ethnic Russians are Slavs, native to Europe. Undashing (talk) 06:18, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Um... only part of Russia is in Europe. Thus it is PARTIALLY in Europe. I don't know how you misinterpreted what I said or why it seems to make you so mad. User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:49, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Travel time by car or ferry from the geographical center of Europe, added by Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:56, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Fun fact: Prague is further west than some parts of Germany, Austria, Italy and Sweden. It is two degrees west of Vienna, and four west of Stockholm. Moscow, on the other hand, is a full 23 degrees east of Prague, while Kyiv and Minsk are 16 and 13 respectively. The distance from Prague to Moscow is almost twice the distance from Prague to Paris or London.

So, while everyone is entitled to their own analysis, the idea that Czechia is central European is certainly a plausible one.

Can we just agree that these terms have various definitions that may all be legitimate, and our articles on Central Europe and Eastern Europe are the place to discuss them? Doric Loon (talk) 08:56, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Russia is the largest country in Europe, yet, neverthless, Russia is only partly in Europe. Surely you don't think Vladivostok is in Europe! And where Slavs originate is irrelevant, just as the majority European heritage of today's populations of Australia and the United States doesn't put those countries in Europe. Largoplazo (talk) 16:49, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Expanding the infobox with additional data

Can I have another opinion regarding the current expansion of the infobox with additional historical data? In my opinion, for the need of the infobox, this item should be brief and really only contain Establishment data, not turning point battles etc. FromCzech (talk) 05:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree, although it seems the infoboxes of other countries are also getting bloated with those additional historical events. In any case, I have reverted the changes back to the status quo until there is a consensus of what to include there. Vpab15 (talk) 10:22, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @FeldmarschallGneisenau, who introduced the changes. Vpab15 (talk) 10:24, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

White Mountain wasn't just "a turning point battle." It pretty much obliterated the very existence of the Czech language until the 19th century, when it was artificially revived by German-speaking people with German names and/or surnames. Everything else I explained briefly in the edit reason. Establishment of Habsburg rule over Bohemia in 1526 is an Establishment event. By the way, dis-establishment events are marked in other articles also, such as the Partitions of Poland. FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 21:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The Czech language was never "obliterated" and/or "artificially revived". Not after the White Mountain, not ever. Where is this nonsense coming from? Czech-speakers have always formed at least 2/3 majority of the population of Czechia until the end of WWII. Habsburgs were just another dynasty on the Czech throne. Qertis (talk) 14:18, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Czech-speakers were driven out into the countryside, and then German settlement began in the countryside also. Czech was dying out by the 19th century and was revived. Dictionaries were published and words entirely made up to counter German dominance. Hence why Czech has uniquely many archaic words, phrases or, e.g. chemical or engineering terms which are completely Slavic, because there was an effort to retrace, recreate (and in some cases completely create anew) a pure Czech Slavic language. Charles University opened a Czech section only in the 2nd half of the 19th century FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 23:28, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Noone was driven into the countryside; there was a significant emigration, but it was both Czech- and German-speaking. Czech was not dying out and/or revived. You are severely overestimating the impact purists had on the language. 17th or 18th century Czech is almost indistinguishable from the modern language. Sure, there are new words and words no longer used, but that applies to any language. There are several hundred words intentionally borrowed from other Slavic languages or recreated from older Czech words but they form only a tiny fraction of the Czech vocabulary. And mind you, this was not a Czech-specific thing. Replacing foreign words with domestic (or domestic-sounding) ones was very popular at that time throughout Europe. Qertis (talk) 07:21, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

It's just the fact that the purists had German names and German was their first language... FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 08:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

The fewer the events, the clearer the purpose. The infobox was really designed to have one date, independence (date of sovereignty), although that clearly breaks down in some situations. CMD (talk) 01:28, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

According to who? FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 01:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article. (That is, an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below.) The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. Of necessity, some infoboxes contain more than just a few fields; however, wherever possible, present information in short form, and exclude any unnecessary content. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 01:52, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

You are free to check out how it looks in the infoboxes of the United States, France, Russia, Poland, Romania and basically any other. That was the intention behind my edits, to bring the Czechia page closer to what every other country page looks like. Currently it looks like the infobox is deliberately omitting key events from Czech history.FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 02:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

The articles you linked all contain infoboxes with establishment history and changes in the country's rule. None of them contain battles, even if it was a "turning point". '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 02:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Serbia does, just phrased differently. Just look around. Anyhow, I hope there's no debate about including the establishment of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and the subsequent establishment of the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic in the infobox. I don't understand why the infobox is so poor right now.FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 02:26, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any battles in Serbia's infobox. However, the inclusion of the Protectorate can be discussed with other editors. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 02:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Fine. And the inclusion of the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic too. I concede your point on not featuring the Battle in the infobox. However I still think the Hussite Wars and Habsburg suzerainty should be included.FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 02:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Info box not the place for military accomplishments Moxy🍁 03:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not a military accomplishment. The Hussite Wars started in reaction to increasing German-language domination over Czech lands and resulted in an outburst and flourishing of Czech national culture, albeit as a sort of swan song when Czech culture began being curbed after the fall of the Hussite period, establishment of Habsburg suzerainty and then after the Battle of the White Mountain when Czech culture started to be actively suppressed and the lands re-Catholicized and Germanized. Similar events interwoven with military engagements are described in the infoboxes of Serbia etc.FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 03:26, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Because of this the country was formed? Moxy🍁 03:32, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

There is no such very strict criteria, it's just a list of key events in the history of a country. See: infoboxes on any other country pages.FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 03:36, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

The fields in question are to support the |sovereignty_type = field, they are not for listing all historical events. CMD (talk) 03:43, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm far from listing all historical events Czechia was involved in. At the very least however, establishment of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, as well as the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic and Habsburg overlordship, should be highlighted.FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 04:02, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Infobox establishment events - the Protectorate and the CSSR

For there to truly be no consensus against including the states of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic in the history of established states on Czech soil, there must be good arguments against including these omitted events from the current page's infobox. I think the case for including these is self-evident, so I wonder who can be against and why. If, apparently, it turns out everyone is for it, it means there is consensus and this urgent change will be re-applied swiftly. Please state your case. FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 21:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not seeing how satellite States are related to the formation of the current country? Moxy🍁 22:13, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not a "sovereign established states" list though. Just what states were established on Czech territory since what date. The Czech Republic is a direct continuator and successor of the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic, of the Czech portion specifically.FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 23:12, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, how they are related? What I wrote at the beginning of the first discussion about expanding the infobox applies. Even you did not consider these events important during the first batch of your attempts to expand the infobox. FromCzech (talk) 04:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not Czech. It's not my job to be cognizant of every important fact about this country immediately. But I remembered these 2 important events anyhow.FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 23:12, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Anyone? No arguments? FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 22:55, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

How is being a puppet of Nazi Germany an important step in developing sovereignty? It seems rather the reverse.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 23:17, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not a sovereignty list, only establishment list. List of established states on Czech soil. FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 04:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It is a sovereignty list, it's specifically a list of events that established sovereignty. CMD (talk) 05:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Are we really just spouting our opinions as facts set in stone now? Let's be serious. A cursory look over other country pages show that within the Czech page, some major whitewashing of history is brewing. The Czechs got divvied up by Western Europe in 1938. And became the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia in 1939 and supplied Adolf's army until 1945 and was the last stand of the German army. Then the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic was established. The current Czech Republic is a direct legal successor of the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic, specifically its Czech part. Direct continuation, same state really, only with a name change. FeldmarschallGneisenau (talk) 14:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The description of article

why is changed the article description? There could be "Country in Central Europe", same like other neighbor countries or different language versions of the article (for example German) 2A00:11B1:1014:9338:93E3:E743:76DF:B190 (talk) 20:36, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Bohemia is not Czechia

Frequent mistake is present in the English text, claimimg that ...[Czechia is] historically known as Bohemia... In fact, the territory of Czechia is composed of Bohemia, Moravia and part of Silesia. These are historical countries, nowadays without any authonomy nor reflected in recent administrative borders. Still, they maintain some cultural and language specifics, and many people feel strong affiliation to "their" country. Particularly the inhabitians of Bohemia sometimes call the whole country as Bohemia (Čechy), which is often felt as haughty by Moravians and Silesians. On the other hand, some people refuse using the newly established term "Czechia" (in Czech: Česko), as they incorrectly consider it as an English translation of "Čechy" (correctly: Bohemia). 81.19.4.195 (talk) 12:44, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

The keyword is "historically" - before the 20th century the whole Czech lands were known in English as "Bohemia", as it explains in the reference. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 12:51, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Even more important than "historically" is that this is talking about ENGLISH usage, not Czech. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:53, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Maybe this issue should be mentioned in the FAQ? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:22, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I am absolutely dumbfounded that this question keeps coming up. I would think that the obvious fact that English and Czech are different languages would be enough to explain it. User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:53, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Many countries have different historical names. By this kind of logic we should write "historically known as Ruthenia" in Ukraine article and "historically known as Muscovy" in Russia article. --UA0Volodymyr (talk) 09:31, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

If that "historically" has already surpassed the psychological threshold of 100 years (1918 Czechoslovakia), I guess it is acceptable to omit this information from the introduction and include it in later sections. Chrz (talk) 10:47, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:LEAD, that's not unreasonable. I don't see a lot about Bohemia in the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:02, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

The country was known as Bohemia for more than 1000 years until 1918. If we have Persia or Siam in the lead sections of Iran and Thailand, Bohemia should be in the lead section here. Qertis (talk) 10:56, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

WP:OTHERCONTENT only means so much, but those are not unreasonable comparisons. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:15, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Both Iran and Thailand were renamed as existed states. Bohemia before 1918 and Czechoslovakia after are completely different state units. UA0Volodymyr (talk) 11:32, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't that argue against the idea of Czechia as a "timeless name", then? User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:11, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

"timeless name"?! UA0Volodymyr (talk) 15:36, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

It's an argument that proponents of using Czechia in Englsh often make. That Czechia applies equally to the entire past of the country.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:39, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Bohemia and Czechia are two names of the same country. Both were used interchangeably for centuries. It is explained in the source article. Qertis (talk) 21:23, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

But it's not used currently. A bunch of the names were used for Ukraine, along with just "Ukraine" until 1945, when the UkSSR was completely recognized by its UN membership: Little Russia, Ruthenia, Malorossiya etc. etc. UA0Volodymyr (talk) 21:30, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to bring it up and discuss here: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Ukraine, this is not the place. Qertis (talk) 21:39, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

No. I just don't think that this kind of old name should be mentioned in lead at all. UA0Volodymyr (talk) 21:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

From here: "When this title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article. These may include alternative spellings, longer or shorter forms, historical names, and significant names in other languages." Qertis (talk) 21:56, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Anyway that's not a name of Czechia as a current country, just of the historical state on this territory and the part of the Austro-Hungary. UA0Volodymyr (talk) 22:05, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

It's the same country. If it hadn't changed its name and still was called Bohemia/Bohemian Republic (translated into Czech literally as "Česká republika"), you wouldn't even think to question it. Qertis (talk) 00:17, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Siam 1939, Iran 1935. Ancient too... Chrz (talk) 14:37, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

That's an article about the current country, not a part of the Austro-Hungary before 1918. Ukrainians in the Western Ukraine controlled by Austro-Hungary also were called Ruthenians before 1918. UA0Volodymyr (talk) 11:26, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand that revert. Among today's readers, few will seek this state under the name Bohemia, which has not been known for over 100 years and thus practically no one could have recorded it under that name. One can learn about its historical name in a different chapter rather than immediately in the introduction. Particularly if it's not relevant to the article's text. Chrz (talk) 14:32, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Before the 1918-1945 and creation of the Ukrainian People's Republic and Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic and second's UN membership the land of Ukraine were called by a variety of names, from "Ruthenia" to "Little Russia". UA0Volodymyr (talk) 14:46, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Basically, every article here on Wikipedia and elsewhere concerning the history of Czechia/Czech Republic uses the name, including the entire History section in this article titled Bohemia covering those 1000 years of the country's history. Anyone interested in the Czech Republic, even briefly touching upon its history, will encounter this name. However, Bohemia and Czechia/Czech Republic do not share an etymological connection or similarity, so for someone unfamiliar, this can be confusing, and therefore, it is appropriate to clarify this connection right in the lead section. Qertis (talk) 21:50, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

In the context of the comparison with Persia and Siam on one hand and Muscovy and Ruthenia on the other, one consideration is that there are still a reasonable number of people alive who knew of the former two as Persia and Siam whereas everyone who ever knew the latter two as Muscovy and Ruthenia is dead. The situation with Bohemia today is nearly the same as that of the latter two. So if the purpose of mentioning an earlier name in the lead is to indicate "this might be the name you know it by", no one, or virtually no one, alive today knows the Czech Republic as Bohemia. Largoplazo (talk) 12:06, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, we might have read A Scandal in Bohemia. Though TBH, at the time I read it, I don't think I gave any thought to that Böhmen was something like Tjeckoslovakien. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:33, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

That story illustrates a difference between Bohemia and Muscovy. The name Bohemia (like Siam and Persia) has a presence in Anglophone culture that Muscovy (and Ruthenia) lacks. -- User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:48, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

"Siam

is gonna be the witness

to the ultimate test

of cerebral fitness." Anglophone culture. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

The King and I. Siamese twin. Siamese cat -- User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:26, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

@Khajidha "Our ship hath touched upon the deserts of Bohemia.". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:22, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I have reverted this, user Qertis still trying to reinforce his claim. Literally no one in English thinks about Bohemia speaking about Czechia. Historically Bohemia is inaccurate. Beshogur (talk) 10:33, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Qertis (talk · contribs) you must be convincing yourself with your "strong arguments" putting blog like source from 2016. I don't see anyone supporting your claim. Beshogur (talk) 11:12, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

[5] Qertis: Every country in Europe is divided into historical regions. Not a single article mentions them in the lead. Plus it is already in the "Name" section

how come you changed your mind?

also reverting other users since 2021 keeping this page hostage.

[6] 2021 rv, sourced

[7] 2021 partial rv. Properly sourced and of utmost historical significance and prominence.

[8] 2022 Undid revision 1073575089 by 2003:D8:8F26:7E00:A4E2:3416:DF74:6391 (talk)

[9] 2022 Undid revision 1074975954 by Itsyoungrapper (talk) After a week of no response to my arguments in talk I am restoring the lede.

[10] 2023 Undid revision 1207644279 by UA0Volodymyr (talk) Bohemia was renamed only a 100 years ago. Muscovy or Ruthenia are very different cases. Bohemia/Czechia is more similar to the renamings of Iran/Persia or Thailand/Siam

So stop edit warring. Beshogur (talk) 11:17, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

That Czechia was historically called Bohemia is a well sourced fact, not a "far fetched idea", which is obvious to anyone even remotely familiar with the history of this coutnry. This: [11] is not a "blog like" source, its an article by a noted Czech historian and diplomat who specializes in this topic. Here is another, even more comprehensive source (in Czech): https://www.pressreader.com/czech-republic/lidove-noviny/20170701/281973197671948 And yes, stop edit warring. Qertis (talk) 11:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I can't even copy the text to translate. Anyways how come a country consisting of three regions (incl. one Bohemia) is known historically as Bohemia. This does not makes sense. It's like calling Spain, historically known as Castilla. Yes, vast majority of this area might be called Bohemia, but Czechia being Bohemia is far fetched, and does not makes sense. Persia and Iran were interchangeable. Even your source "Czech Radio" says While Bohemia would have been a historically sound option, it doesn´t correspond with the formal name, and moreover, it is now commonly used only in the narrow sense, as the name of Bohemia proper, not including Moravia and Silesia. Beshogur (talk) 11:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Right click and copy. It makes perfect sense. That's how many other European countries were named as well (Austria, Poland, Switzerland, Sweden, Finland, etc.). Almost any large enough country in Europe consists of historical regions. Often the most important (core) one gave name to the whole country. Czechia was for centuries called Bohemia (officially "the Crown of the Kingdom of Bohemia"), while the region was sometimes called Bohemia proper to distinguish it from the country. The last sentence merely says that "Bohemia" and the "Czech Republic" (the current formal name) do not correspond to each other ethymologically so "Czechia" is the better short name of the country today. Qertis (talk) 12:12, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Kingdom of Bohemia

Lands of Bohemian Crown

That's not true. That sentence has nothing to do with etymology, it says it doesn't correspond with formal name

I'm not very into HRE history but "Lands of the Bohemian Crown" means lands belonging to Bohemian crown, located in Bohemia, which includes other two regions. Beshogur (talk) 13:23, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

It is true and has everything to do with etymology. One name derives from the Celtic tribe of the Boii (Bohemia), the other from the Slavic tribe of the Czechs. The author says that it would have been odd (and, frankly, unprecedented) to have formal and short name with different roots ("it doesn´t correspond with the formal NAME"). Please, read the sources, it is explained there in detail with references to the primary sources, if you are interested. I will just add here that Czechs were historically called Bohemians and the Czech language was called the Bohemian language until the early 20th century. Also, Bohemia and Czechia were used as synonyms for centuries (in Latin and later in English), as the names of both the region (Bohemia/Czechia proper) and the country. It is all there. Qertis (talk) 14:30, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

While you are correct overall, you are incorrect on one point. Having formal and short names from different roots would not be entirely unprecedented. Greece is formally the Hellenic Republic. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Oops, true. Thanks for the correction. Qertis (talk) 12:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I seem to remember that Switzerland used to be formally called the Helvetic Confederation in English as well, but Swiss Confederation seems to be the current usage. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested Move 11 Jul 2024

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Czech Republic --> Czechia

There's been a spirited debate over the course of several months, and it's been over a year since the last move request. Czechia is increasingly becoming the common name in reliable sources: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/czechia/

If we don't move it now we will probably move it eventually, much like the Kyiv/Kiev debate. So I say we get it over with and rename the article. SVeach94 (talk) 11:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment The proposal's claim that "Czechia" has become increasingly common is presented without evidence beyond one source (CIA), which adopted it, IIRC, early on—it isn't a new development. Also, it's a weaker claim than is required to justify the move, which is that "Czechia" has become more common than "Czech Republic". Finally, "getting it over with" isn't a thing. There's no reason to do something before it's time to do it. In short, the proposal as given doesn't justify the move and places the burden entirely on others to do so. Largoplazo (talk) 13:27, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Note: Some have requested we wait until after the Olympic Games, and this discussion will likely last until after they are over, so it seems like a good time.

Discussion

• Move per above. SVeach94 (talk) 11:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• Comment Whatever the outcome, I suggest the closer adds a one-year WP:MORATORIUM on the issue. Interestingly, Czechia did have a recent spike on Google trends. I have to say that the Note: above doesn't make much sense to me. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:34, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  "Whatever the outcome"? Are you concerned that if the proposal succeeds this time, it will be followed by repeated requests to move it back? Largoplazo (talk) 13:18, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  I can see that happening. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:23, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  • Oppose for now. If you look at the interest over the past 30 days, you’ll see the recent spike was actually three individual (progressively smaller) spikes on the 18, 22, and 26 June, the days “Czechia” played at the UEFA Euro 2024. The trends after the 26th, however, look pretty much the same as before the 18th. The spikes were, no doubt, the result of the country being referred to as “Czechia” throughout the tournament. We’ll almost certainly see a similar spike during the Olympics (where the country will also be referred to as “Czechia”), the question is whether or not that trend continues after they are over. I certainly think we should wait at least two months before making a decision. Brainiac242 (talk) 18:28, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• Move - The IIHF has been using Czechia, since 2022. GoodDay (talk) 11:48, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• Move - We've just had the European Cup, and Czechia was used by preference there (see UEFA website). Czechia has always been the better title in terms of the five key article naming criteria, especially "concision" and "consistency with other articles", but so far it has failed to achieve consensus because of the equally important (though never "sole") threshold of Common Name. This is changing so fast now that I see no point in continuing to play Canute and order the tide back.Doric Loon (talk) 14:23, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
• I see the general consensus above to see the impact of the Olympics was ignored. That seems a shame, it was a good idea. CMD (talk) 15:32, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  @Chipmunkdavis Indeed, we had actually agreed to wait till the autumn. Doric Loon (talk) 18:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  Alright, let's just shut this conversation down. It goes against what we already agreed on. Chrz (talk) 19:21, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  I think it actually hasn't been listed ad a formal RM yet anyway... The necessary templates aren't at the top of this section. So we could just archive it and reconvene in a few months...  — Amakuru (talk) 21:06, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  No objection, but the OP should probably voice an opinion first. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:20, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  OK, but something has to change one way or the other. Either this needs to be closed, or the OP needs to open it as a real RM discussion for a full 7+ days. One thing that cannot happen is for an "informal" discussion such as this one, only visible to those who watch the page, to result in the move of a long-term controversial page.  — Amakuru (talk) 08:51, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

  If @SVeach94 didn't start this WP:RM#CM correctly, they need to fix that, sure. Per comments in this thread, I think they should also consider withdrawing it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:57, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - while it might be that some sea change would follow the Olympics, and it would certainly have been better to wait at least until then, but in any case this request is entirely lacking in any sort of evidence, sourcing or other things which are essential if a long-term title is to be changed. Anyway, on the substance of the question, when we assess ngram evidence up until 2019, the common name was overwhelmingly in favour of the current title, Czech Republic.[12] There's a slight uptick from when the name Czechia first started being recommended, around 10 years ago, but nothing substantial enough to suggest that five years on Czechia might have overtaken Czech Republic. That's not to say that some sources don't use Czechia, of course they do. But a much larger volume use Czech Republic. Or at least they did at the last RM, and no evidence has been given here to suggest otherwise. When WP:COMMONNAME is met by a large margin, that's the only policy we need assess, as it follows from the policy page that this offers the best evidence of the other criteria being met.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:03, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

  "They" may have persuaded the Czech Olympic Committee and CIA Factbook, but how much does that matter compared to [13]? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:29, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

• Wait Your impatience may have just ruined it for the whole next year. >:( Edit: Since the proposal was not formally submitted and it ignores previous agreements, I suggest ending the discussion and resuming it no sooner than September 2024. Alternatively, we could formalize the discussion about the move and keep it open until September. I am not happy that the proposer put the entire burden of proof on the supporters, while himself only brought such a non-argument that was never enough in a previous RM. >:-| Chrz (talk) 10:44, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
• Move - We will move it sooner or later anyway, the scales seem to be tipped already. Though I would suggest to wait at least until the end of the Olympics as was proposed earlier. Qertis (talk) 07:30, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
• Close this informal discussion and wait +-2 months. Due to the unofficial nature of the request, there is no point in commenting further. Apparently, waiting has its supporters both among opponents and supporters of the move. The gentleman's agreement to wait until after the OG should be followed. FromCzech (talk) 09:00, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

  As @FromCzech put it, we had a gentleman's agreement and should stick to it. I think in fact we have a consensus about that. I am going to add a "close discussion" tag, because otherwise this will drag on. Let's say we'll revisit it in October. Doric Loon (talk) 14:04, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 July 2024

Categorize as Category:Central European countries Geapply (talk) 14:23, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Done – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 15:20, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Renaming to the Czechia

Can I change the title of the article to one-word Czechia? Considering that this country is under this name on the websites of the UN or the EU and several others, I think it is time to do it. Czech politicians are also using this designation more and more often on foreign trips. I've also seen it on TV during some sport. Even the article on the Czech Wikipedia has the one-word title "Česko". https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Cesko

So I would do that if it's not a problem. Andypos (talk) 01:08, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

You would need to start a formal move discussion as prescribed at WP:RM. If you do that, you should understand that

• This change has been proposed numerous times and has continued to fail to obtain a consensus.
• The criteria on which the decision should be made are primarily those expressed at WP:COMMONNAME. So a move nomination should be based on a solid guidelines-based demonstration that the criteria for a name change have been met. In particular:
  • It's not a matter of showing that some or many uses of "Czechia" exist but that they predominate. Maybe they do now, but that needs to be assessed.
  • Other sources, like the UN and the EU and sports programming have their criteria for reflecting new names. Wikipedia has it's own criteria.
  • Czechia was using "Česko" for itself years before it even came up with "Czechia" for the English-speaking world, so that isn't relevant.
• You should familiarize yourself with previous discussions to avoid treading ground already trodden. See the latest one at Talk:Czech Republic/Archive 12#Closure of "Rename to Czechia" discussion.
• That was only eight months ago, and these discussions are draining to all who have this article on their watchlists. It would be respectiful of other people's time and effort to wait a while longer. The situation just isn't likely to change that dramatically that fast, and there's no obligation to catch relative usage slipping over the threshold the instant it happens.

Largoplazo (talk) 02:32, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation. Andypos (talk) 18:23, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Btw, just noticing the heading of this thread, I do not think you will get agreement to change the article-title to "the Czechia". ;-) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:47, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Can I suggest we don't revisit this until after this year's Olympics? The situation is actually changing very fast, and reporting on the Czech participation in Paris is likely to give a very up-to-date metric for common usage. Let's wait and see what that looks like. Doric Loon (talk) 09:14, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Make it 6-12 months after, but yes, it will be interesting to see what impact that has. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:29, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, agree, as well as the Olympics this year we also have Euro 2024, another ice hockey championship, and an EU parliament election, so hopefully that'll provide enough contemporary sources for people to move on from the Google ngram that only goes up to 2019. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 09:39, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

If these events have enough effect on the google trends, that could happen. It would be nice if ngram could be arsed to update, though. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:32, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, the IIHF began using Czechia in their 2022 tournaments. GoodDay (talk) 23:35, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

According to WP:COMMONNAME and WP:OFFICIALNAMES we have to wait for the majority of reliable secondary sources (in English language) to use Czechia instead of Czech Republic. I support the use of Czechia as soon as possible (with a new check every 6/12 month).

• Czechia became an official name for the English language along with the original Czech Republic in April 2016.
• The Czech Ministry of Foreign Affairs also just published this guideline in January 2024, in order to instruct which form of the country's name ("Czechia" or "the Czech Republic") is preferred for international use - and in what contexts.

I recommend we all start promoting this guideline to be respected towards all reliable media in the secondary ressource field. The guideline instructs that we shall all start to use the country name Czechia instead of Czech Republic in all places of published international text in English language - except for "treaty texts" where the long version name "The Czech Republic" is still preferred. Danish Expert (talk) 17:19, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

The guideline from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Czech Republic is not to instruct foreigners, it's about use "when presenting the Czech Republic abroad." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:33, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Correct. I just removed the word "foreigners" from my reply. Danish Expert (talk) 17:35, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

You said "I recommend we all start promoting this guideline to be respected towards all reliable media in the secondary ressource field." Do you, for example, want Wikipedians to complain to The Times when they use "Czech Republic" in their articles? Btw, WP:REDACT is good guidance. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:43, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I would promote existence of the Czechia guideline to all news papers, as some are not aware of this new guideline, but not complain. It is hard to complain, when the name of the Embassy of the Czech Republic in Washington D.C. still has not changed its name. Although, I can not help to mention, that all media write Slovakia, despite their embassy name also is Embassy of the Slovak Republic in Washington. :-) Danish Expert (talk) 18:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

We're not here to promote anything, we're here to produce an encyclopedia. And that encyclopedia should reflect the world, and the way reliable sources present the subjects that make up the world, it is not its job to attempt to influence anything. See WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 18:24, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

This is not an encyclopaedia. An encyclopaedia gives correct information and doesn't wait for Google Trends to produce an arbitrary result

This entire discussion is racist against the people of Czechia 120.18.96.112 (talk) 02:32, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Per that guideline you linked, the embassy probably wont change its name either. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:31, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Without promoting anything, I then just have to note, that ECB since 2020 and the European Commission since 2020 both have started to use "Czechia" instead of "Czech Republic", so we have more and more sources starting to use "Czechia" as times go by. Danish Expert (talk) 20:06, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

We would expect them to, they are official sources linked to the EU. CMD (talk) 01:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

You still seem to be missing the point. That guideline is for CZECHS to follow when writing about their country. It has no bearing on how the outside world writes. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:28, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

It is meant to inform the foreign audience as well. Jan, Deputy Foreign Minister of Czechia. 89.177.41.144 (talk) 09:31, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

If I want to book a vacation in Central Europe, will the travel brochures talk about Czechia or the Czech Republic? If the news mentions a new NATO base or missile installation, will it be described as being in Czechia or the Czech Republic? If I am watching hockey, will the team be called Czechia or the Czech Republic? These are the sorts of things that show actual usage, not government bureaucratese. So far, it seems that only the last of my three examples has switched. And even there, other sports have not made the changeover. User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@Khajidha Well... [14] still has "Czech Republic" in the URL, but it has "Czechia" in the headline. So watch this space. Doric Loon (talk) 14:44, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@Khajidha: The country's state tourism agency, actually right now have websites up in 2 versions! They want to maximize their tourism promotion - reaching as many as possible. Hence, they operate both www.czechtourism.cz (Promoting Czech Republic for those who learned the old English name of the country in 1993-2016), and www.visitczechia.com (Promoting Czechia for those who learned the new English name of the country in 2016-2024). Please note, that the international .com version of the tourism website (most likely having the highest traffic) promotes "Czechia", while the .cz domain (most likely with less traffic) has the job of promoting "Czech Republic". Danish Expert (talk) 17:36, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

That's a strange analysis. As you can see, even www.czechtourism.cz has the heading TRAVEL PROFESSIONALS FROM CZECHIA. You keep imagining everything in black and white and expect that a page either has to have only one version of the title or only the second version of the title and that it means something. Also, be aware that czechtourism is an "agency", while visitczechia is an "advertising campaign", so... Strange analysis. Chrz (talk) 17:54, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

As a general reply to this debate, I can btw today also recommend a read - and potential add of additional sourced content - to this relevant Wikipedia article: Name of the Czech Republic#Adoption of Czechia. The article keeps track and give a summarized update of how widely Czechia is currently used. Danish Expert (talk) 18:51, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Most of the people who contribute here have been following this issue for a very long time (and know your link), from the times when the name was ridiculed for not even existing, to the present day, when they had to admit that Czechia officially exists and is used by many sources, but they are waiting for "majority usage", which in translation means "when my favorite newspapers will use it". Chrz (talk) 19:08, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@Chrz: Here is a quoted repeat of my first reply in this debate (my post above from 17:19, 26 March):

"According to WP:COMMONNAME and WP:OFFICIALNAMES we have to wait for the majority of reliable secondary sources (in English language) to use Czechia instead of Czech Republic. I support the use of Czechia as soon as possible (with a new check every 6/12 month).

• Czechia became an official name for the English language along with the original Czech Republic in April 2016.
• The Czech Ministry of Foreign Affairs also just published this guideline in January 2024, in order to instruct which form of the country's name ("Czechia" or "the Czech Republic") is preferred for international use - and in what contexts. The guideline instructs that the country name Czechia should be preferably used [by secondary sources] instead of Czech Republic in all places of published international text in English language - except for "treaty texts" where the long version name "The Czech Republic" is still preferred.

I respect and accept Wikipedia has to wait for the majority of all reliable secondary sources to be aware of and having adopted the new Czechia name, according to the guidelines of the Czech Ministry of Foreign Affairs. My reply and proposal in this specific debate, was just to highlight that its relevant to have a new check made every 6 month or 12 month. I would give such a proposal my full support. Because we apparently have a rapidly growing number of reliable secondary sources that recently have started using the "Czechia" name as the preferred name over "Czech Republic". Danish Expert (talk) 20:51, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

In terms of the number of sources, it may have already exceeded the majority, but not in terms of the importance of those sources. (Because newspapers are considered to be the language of common use, while organizations are biased because they cowardly subvert the will of the state.) It probably doesn't make sense to repeat the discussion every six months, as long as the opinion prevails that it can't be changed without newspapers on board. Chrz (talk) 21:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

And if you want to start a new round of discussion about the move, I would wait at least until the Olympics. Maybe it won't be so overwhelmingly in favor of the name Czechia there (and it also depends on how well they do) and journalists will again be rewriting the results "from English to another English", but it makes more sense than now, in a time of relative calm. Chrz (talk) 21:58, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Sub-debate

As a matter of context, I knew nothing about this "Czech Republic" vs "Czechia" battle before March 25, where my proposed edit change of "Czech republic" to "Czechia" in the text body (not article name) of the Enlargement of the eurozone article was reverted by Brainiac242. I made the edit change from "Czech Republic" to "Czechia" in the article text, because many (if not most) of the newest secondary sources had published content about "Czechia and the euro" and not "Czech Republic and the euro". I even only made this edit attempt 1 time, after also having conducted a rapid google search to look into this issue, which introduced me to the Czechia guidelines published by the Czech Ministry of Foreign Affairs. So I was in good faith, when I did my edit on March 25.

• My own personal agenda is not about the use of Czechia in article titles (or the title of this Czech Republic article). I only have the interest to investigate/check, when exactly the Wikipedia policy can allow me to use "Czechia" in the article text of the article Enlargement of the eurozone.
• According to Brainiac242, there is no difference between article text and article titles, as he argued very briefly in the reverted edit reasoning, that "Czech Republic" shall be preferably used rather than "Czechia" throughout all "article titles" and all "article text" at any place at Wikipedia, for as long as the main topic Wikipedia article Czech Republic has not changed its name to Czechia.

Is Brainiac242 correct? Do I have to wait the long time for the main Czech Republic article to change its name to Czechia, before I start to use Czechia instead of Czech Republic in the Enlargement of the eurozone article? Or do I only have to proof existence of a majority of reliable secondary sources within the specific topic "enlargement of the eurozone" that have used "Czechia" instead of "Czech Republic", within the most recent timeframe (i.e. 2020-2024), before being allowed to us Czechia in the article text of the Enlargement of the eurozone article? Danish Expert (talk) 20:51, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

MOS:GEO is very clear. A place should generally be referred to consistently by the same name as in the title of its article. In this case this means Czech Republic is the appropriate name. Kahastok talk 21:04, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I love to follow the debate here. It seems to me that Wikipedia will be the last man standing and using the long name. 89.177.41.144 (talk) 09:35, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

If you've read any of the discussions at all, you'd know that by definition it won't be the last because the guidelines provide that it will switch when a majority, not all, of reliable sources are using the short name. Largoplazo (talk) 10:54, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Take a look at Czech Republic men's national ice hockey team. Even though the team competes under the name Czechia, wikipedians simply cannot stand for the hockey team to be named differently than the state (in the title of the article and not even in the infobox) and in an effort of total unification, they forcibly unify the terminology across Wikipedia even where it contradicts the sources. Because they are allegedly dictated to by the aforementioned recommendation. But to be completely fair, it is graciously allowed in some places, although it is possible that it is just an oversight of the unifiers. Chrz (talk) 21:53, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I’d just like to point out that Danish Expert did NOT, in fact, simply “use "Czechia" in the article text of the article Enlargement of the eurozone”. They replaced every single mention of “the Czech Republic” with “Czechia” in Czech Republic and the euro, Template:Euro accession map, Template:Exchange-rate regime for EU members, Template:Non-euro currencies of the European Union, and yes Enlargement of the eurozone. Even moving “Czech Republic and the euro” to “Czechia and the euro”. Claiming every time that “The new name "Czechia" replaced the old name "Czech Republic" as the most officially preferred name to be used for the country in April 2016; and as per the published guidelines issued by the Czech government: https://mzv.gov.cz/jnp/en/czechia.html , we shall all start to get used and use the country name Czechia instead of Czech Republic in all places of published international text except of "treaty texts"; just like we now always write "France" instead of the "French Republic"”. Good faith or not, this wasn’t an isolated and reasonable change, it was a full-on attempt to change the way the country is referred to in Wikipedia.

I also did not argue “that "Czech Republic" shall be preferably used rather than "Czechia" throughout all "article titles" and all "article text" at any place at Wikipedia, for as long as the main topic Wikipedia article Czech Republic has not changed its name to Czechia”, or that “there is no difference between article text and article titles”. I simply reverted their edits saying “See WP:COMMONNAME, WP:OFFICIALNAMES. The name change has been proposed plenty of times at Talk:Czech Republic, and has always been rejected”. Brainiac242 (talk) 01:46, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware that this assessment does not allow for changing the text of articles. These arguments are used for moving the primary article, or as arguments for specific contexts. Centralized discussions are the best place to address these issues, and where the use of synonyms for certain historical or other contexts can be allowed. MOS:GEO does not imply total unification in all circumstances; context plays a role, if it is so evaluated in the discussion. Chrz (talk) 10:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

I honestly don't understand this whole problem. Why don't we move Czech Republic to Czechia? What I understood is that Wikipedia wants a proof, that it is used sufficiently. What other proof do we need? The most important official and global platforms already use it, what's the problem? Having read all the comments, discussions and so on, I feel like many people fail to realize that we if don't change it right now, it will take just more and more time to finally observe the usage. What is there to discuss? Malinskt (talk) 22:00, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Because doing so would require a consensus. Previous discussions, such as this one, have failed to do so. CanonNi (talk) 23:45, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem is the users who are actively trying to undermine efforts to rename the page, saying that Czech Republic is still used in English more than Czechia. However, the use of the long (political) name is largely due to the fact that the country name is presented that way on Wikipedia, which is the main source for a lot of people. --Unloose ^(talk) 11:40, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Alternate hypothesis: WP:s use doesn't matter that much, there are other sources of English text. However, if you are correct, the title will never change. "efforts to rename the page" can also be seen as problematic, since they eat up time and energy. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:48, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

It that case, in order not to "eat up time and energy" it should be changed right away. Those who support the change to Czechia have plenty of evidence, such as the websites of EU, NATO, UN, CIA and so on. What is more important than that? Those who are against the change do not have those contra-evidence, merely opinions. Also, I need to highlight the fact, that supporters of the change need proofs, but supporters of the Czech Republic do not? That doesn't make sense. Also, yes, there are still some people who refer to the country as the Czech Republic, but that's mostly because any article mentioning the country uses the name Czech Republic and it is not permited to use Czechia. This is very much Kafkaesque. Malinskt (talk) 12:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

"What is more important than that?" Actual, day-to-day usage in English. Not bureaucratese. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:16, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

How do you measure that? People use what they see, currently they see Czechia on Google, Apple maps. Malinskt (talk) 10:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

And the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the one who wants to change things. This is not some strange Wikipedia-only trick to control reality. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:25, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, at this point I don't think it is "who wants a change" but more like "who doesn't want a change". As said above, the change has already happened. Wikipedia therefore should be updated. Malinskt (talk) 10:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that's one of strangest premises I've ever read on Wikipedia. Do you think every time people want to refer to a country, they check Wikipedia to verify what it's called today? Or that they say to each other "Ooh, I don't know if I should call it "Czechia". I'm scared of what might happen to me if I use it before Wikipedia has retitled its article." It's a miracle people knew what to call countries before Wikipedia existed, isn't it? That we managed the transition from Ceylon to Sri Lanka and Constantinople to Istanbul? Largoplazo (talk) 12:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I am fairly concerned that it goes like this: 1) They see e.g. sport event where Czechia is used, they call it Czechia, 2) they search for something where Czechia is mentioned, but it is Czech Republic, 3) they get unsure and use Czech Republic, because that's what they saw on Wiki and "perhaps Czechia is just a nickname". 4) Because of that they might use it on social media. 5) Other person sees Czech Republic... Perhaps it doesn't have such an influence but it slows the proces down. Don't forget, they don't have to search the country, but just some article that mentions it, and it's ridiculous when it's about pre-1993 history and the Czech Republic stands there like if it travelled through time. Malinskt (talk) 12:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't Czechia before 1993 either, so your "ridiculous ... travelled through time" works against you as well. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:04, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it does. Why do we say that Chopin was from Poland? Why do we say that Bach was from Germany? Why do we say that DaVinci was from Italy? None of those existed and yet we use those names. The same goes for Czechia. It is definitely more accurate to say Czechia in historical context than "The Czech Republic" which refers to a country founded in 1993 only. Yes, you can say "... from *place*, now part of the Czech Republic..." but why? It takes more space, it interrupts the flow and so on. Malinskt (talk) 14:10, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The point is, that adopting the name Czechia for the current state doesn't automatically mean that that word becomes commonly used for past iterations of the Czech state. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:13, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, checking the articles of those gentlemen, we DON'T say that Bach was from Germany or that DaVinci was from Italy. They are listed as being born in the duchy of Saxe-Eisenach and the Republic of Florence, respectively. Chopin is, admittedly, anachronistically listed in the infobox as being born in Poland instead of the correct Duchy of Warsaw, though the facts are spelled out in the article. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:25, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Are we talking about everyday speech or wikipedia only? I was referring to everyday speech. On top of that, wikipedia says „Leonardo di ser Piero da Vinci (15 April 1452 – 2 May 1519) was an Italian polymath of the High Renaissance", it says ITALIAN despite Italy not existing at that time. Having a look on the Florentine Republic, we see that „...early modern state that was centered on the Italian city of Florence in Tuscany, Italy." and it doesn't say „nowadays part of Italy". That being said, in this context where „now part of the Czech Republic" or anything of that kind, we could simply use "Czechia" Malinskt (talk) 07:53, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Italian in that context is a cultural term, not a geographic one. And I do agree that the Florentine Republic article is wrongly phrased.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:28, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, "it slows the proces down" assumes that the process actually needs to proceed. I don't understand what the problem is. English and Czech ARE different languages. They ARE allowed to call things different words. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

It's been proceeding 8 years, since then numerous important platforms started using it. I really haven't found any reason why not to move it to Czechia. You're arguments aren't anti-Czechia either. I will just wait till the olympics as many of you suggested. Malinskt (talk) 08:00, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Finally, if they read past the title, they will see that Wikipedia says "also known as Czechia", so how would the page name here stop them from using Czechia? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:10, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that is true, but other articles do not say "...in a town in the Czech Republic (also known as Czechia)". But yeah, if it isn't moved after the olympics, I don't see a reason why not add it there. Malinskt (talk) 07:41, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Because saying that for every occasion of mentioning the country would be redundant. For example, we don't say ...in a town in Guangdong (also known as Canton). CanonNi (talk) 08:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

That's perhaps a plausible scenario up to a point, but I'm skeptical about step 3. I'm imagining they come here, see "Czechia" mentioned, say to themselves, "Oh, the country has a shorter name, like United States instead of United States of America", and then they return to the context in which they encountered "Czechia" and, from their exposure to that, "Czechia" becomes normalized for them. Except that I imagine that the viewers who sees "Czechia" and need to run and look it up aren't, by and large, the same people who are writing about Czechia in current reliable sources. The New York Times and The Independent aren't following Wikipedia on this. Largoplazo (talk) 16:37, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Remember that, while individual editors might have their preferences, Wikipedia as an institution is neutral on what the country should be called.

I don't actually believe that Wikipedia is as influential as the argument supposes. But even if it is, it doesn't matter. Unless you are suggesting we campaign for a name change - which we're not allowed to do - then the question of how much influence Wikipedia has on the name used by the rest of the world is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Kahastok talk 17:34, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

If we want to do our best to minimize the impact of Wikipedia on the surrounding world, we could at least modify the first sentence from a vague "also known as" to a more decisive "short form", or as in the UEA case "or simply". Chrz (talk) 11:23, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

You are right. This is a good idea.

"The Czech Republic, also known as Czechia, is a landlocked country in Central Europe." --> "The Czech Republic, or Czechia (official short form), is a landlocked country in Central Europe. "

This would be probably the best solution. Malinskt (talk) 11:29, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The article title and the first mention of the name clearly indicate which name is the so-called "common" one. The carefully chosen words for the alternative form at least do not downgrade its importance - from "historically" through "rarely" and "also known as" to "or", which I would see as the last step before renaming.

The Czech Republic, or Czechia, keep it simple :) Chrz (talk) 11:39, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem is currently, no other country article uses the same "xxx", or yyy" format. Most use the "yyy, officially the xxx" format. Therefore, I suggest keeping the lead in its current state until the article has been moved. CanonNi (talk) 12:00, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

(IMHO) no other country uses the same "xxx", also known as "yyy" format. One original format is considered acceptable, while the other is seen as problematic. Chrz (talk) 13:28, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

That's not true. For example, the article of East Timor states, "East Timor, also known as Timor-Leste, officially the Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste, is a country in Southeast Asia." CanonNi (talk) 13:35, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Either way, WP:OTHERCONTENT. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the reminder. CanonNi (talk) 13:45, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Consistency, unified format.

Ehm, not the same, it would be: Democratic Republic of Timor-Leste, also known as East Timor, is... Chrz (talk) 15:21, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

You are getting confused as to what the formats here and at East Timor are. It isn't longform then shortform or vice versa. It is most commonly used then other. In East Timor's case that puts the short form first. Here, it produces the reverse. But they are still the same pattern. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:39, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, East Timor has three names, one of them introduced as "official", Czech Republic has only two and none of them is identified as official. That's why I don't think it is the same pattern at all, the Czech Republic has a completelly unique word order, name order and number of names, that's why it might deserve its own "or", "or unofficially", or whatever between those two names on different level of "officiality" (formality). (Maybe that UAE case is the closest, although "Emirates" and "Czechia" are not from the same pond, used by different type of sources.) Chrz (talk) 17:03, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

That's because other countries have the name of the article as their short name and then it is added that the full name is for example Slovak Republic.

Name: Slovakia. First sentence: Slovakia (/sloʊˈvækiə, -ˈvɑːk-/ ^ⓘ;Slovak: Slovensko [ˈslɔʋenskɔ] ^ⓘ), officially the Slovak Republic (Slovak: Slovenská republika [ˈslɔʋenskaː ˈrepublika] ^ⓘ), is a landlocked country in Central Europe.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean with "unofficial". The official name of Czechia is Czechia (short form) and the Czech Republic (long form). That's why it should be "or", not "also known as".

The "officially" is a big bug in Wikipedia because both name, political and geographical, are official. Malinskt (talk) 17:11, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

If Wikipedia uses "officially" for "long formal official". I used "unofficial" for the other cases (official short or some unregistered but used nickname), but I would rather not use that word in the text. Chrz (talk) 17:23, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

"Officially" should probably be "formally", because what is meant is the form used in treaties and such. "Kingdom of Whereveria", "Republic of Somewheristan", etc. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:04, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

In fact, all this discussion about longforms and shortforms is misguided. The general pattern is common name followed by full formal name. There is no provision for the "short official name" because it would almost always be the same as the common name. That's why it took so log to get Czechia added here. It doesn't fit in either slot. It was only when usage increased that it was put in the lead-- User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:15, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The difference is simple: Slovakia has been the normal name for that country in English since it gained independence. Things are a bit different here as Czech Republic became the normal name for this country upon independence and while there is a push to make the shorter name more common, it has been only partially successful. Funnyhat (talk) 22:20, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

That's only partially true. Czechia was in fact used in 1990's too, but then, I don't know what happened, but they stopped using it or what and also did not add to to te UN register in 1993. Malinskt (talk) 10:43, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and that's the problem. The current commonly used name is Czech Republic, not Czechia. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 10:45, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Also not true. Let me repeat myself for the hundredth time. If anything, both are used just as much. But Czechia is on Google maps, Apple maps, many other platforms use it (AirBnB, Bolt, Youtube, WhatsApp) so I would not be that confident about it. Malinskt (talk) 10:47, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Today for the first time Czechia is leading on google trends in US. So it’s getting closer … :-)

[15]https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%201-d&geo=US&q=czechia,czech%20republic&hl=cs Stapaben (talk) 07:23, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Uh... That actually shows Czech Republic as the more common term. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

That one should be static and Czechia is leading again and now it is worldwide :-)

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2024-06-17%202024-06-18&q=czechia,czech%20republic#GEO_MAP Stapaben (talk) 13:08, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

That is something I would support. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Voting?

• Czechia, officially the Czech Republic,
• Czech Republic, or Czechia,
• Czech Republic, also Czechia,
• Czech Republic, or simply Czechia,
• Czech Republic, informally Czechia,
• Czech Republic, or informally Czechia,
• Czech Republic, short form Czechia,
• keep Czech Republic, also known as Czechia,
• something else

I think I ordered it by how much weight the alternative name carries (where "alternative name" refers to the name not chosen as the article title) and IMHO it deserves to be moved higher. Chrz (talk) 21:57, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if it's general English, my dialect, or just me, but "Czech Republic, also Czechia" just seems incomplete/incorrect to me. It looks like some sort of typo for "Czech Republic, also known as Czechia". -- User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 01:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

as well as Chrz (talk) 08:13, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

"The Czech Republic, as well as Czechia, ..." feels like the CZ, and Czechia. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 08:15, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Conjunction (grammar) - I am searching for non-exclusive meaning - "both are OK and you can use both in the same text". For example using both spelling "Vietnam" and "Viet Nam" in the same text would not be good. If switching between East Timor and Timor-Leste in the same text is cool, IDK. Chrz (talk) 09:27, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

In that case "The Czech Republic, or Czechia for short, is a ..." might be a good idea. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 09:33, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Keep in mind of WP:NOVOTE. CanonNi (talk) 01:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I vote for "Czech Republic, or Czechia..." and then, once it's moved, "Czechia, full name the Czech Republic..." Malinskt (talk) 20:14, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The current opening ("The Czech Republic, also known as Czechia) works best. I don't see how any of the others improves on it. It avoids any judgment about formality and just states the two names. Funnyhat (talk) 22:22, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Let's make it consistent with other articles about countries on Wikipedia. The best alternative in that case is: Czechia, officially the Czech Republic. -- Unloose ^(talk) 10:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

That breaks MOS:LEADSENTENCE, which says If possible, the page title should be the subject of the first sentence.

I see no issue with the current form, and I don't see any improvement in the options above. Kahastok talk 10:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

And we are getting back to the problem. Czechia should be the title of the page. Malinskt (talk) 10:44, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

When it's allowed. Open an RM on this page's title. GoodDay (talk) 17:14, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Anyone who wants can open a WP:RM#CM now, if that's what you meant. IMO it wouldn't be a good idea, but that's me. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:33, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Correct, see my opening response to this greater discussion. Basically, "We just did this, please give us a break." Largoplazo (talk) 16:41, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Hm, almost two months ago. Time flies. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:51, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

BTW Following up on your message in the archived discussion:

Consider writing the EU next, there are 4 "the Czechia" at [16]. 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I did, "the Czechia" is gone. When you wrote that, it was supposed to be an argument against Czechia, but now that they're using the name without 'the', it suddenly becomes an uninteresting source, right? Chrz (talk) 11:31, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång Could you please provide a comprehensive list of your concerns so we can take care of what we can before the next RM? First it was the UN that posed an obstacle. Once that was addressed, sports became the issue. When we managed to address that too, the Eurovision Song Contest emerged as a concern. And now, I see in the comments below that Miss Czech Republic is suddenly another hurdle to overcome. Surely, no country has such a level of uniformity as is being demanded of the Czech Republic/Czechia. Even the United States or the United Kingdom... Chrz (talk) 16:36, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

My comment on Miss Czech Republic was an attempt at humor. My concern is mostly that we should be on the right side of WP:COMMONNAME. I don't remember bringing up UN, sports or Eurovision as obstacles, but my memory is not perfect. Fwiw, I don't see re-naming as a "right/desired" outcome (or the opposite) and what prevents it as "obstacles". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:51, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not implying that you specifically have been raising these "obstacles" one by one. But the overall impression I get is that the reasons for not moving are gradually being revealed and there always seems to be a new resource with "Republic" which is magically somehow so crucial that it simply cannot be moved. Or perhaps everyone has been attempting humor so far. I'm curious to see how this plays out, with sports sources pro-Czechia against some (majority/minority?) news outlets that stubbornly rewrites "one English" to "another English". Chrz (talk) 17:50, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

These have never been presented as you are describing. Each of those things was mentioned as an example of high profile uses that might lead to a wholesale shift. I don't know why you seem to think that "obstacles" are constantly being set up and goals are being changed. The requirement has always been the same: predominant usage in English.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 23:49, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

And I'm saying: tell me what other high profile uses you consider high profile, and if it's homework for Czechia, we can still fix it before the next RM, especially if it's just random omissions or typos like 'the Czechia' on some websites. I wouldn't expect a name change for Miss CZ, but eg. the program Visit Czech Republic was successfully renamed Visit Czechia a while ago, another high-profile achievement, and you're slowly starting to fish from the medium profile sources. IMHO most of the things that the country could change on its own have been changed. Now it's just a matter of how successfully foreign-language sources have become accustomed to and accepted the change. Chrz (talk) 08:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

BTW I just noticed that Ivory Coast has been recetly moved. Perhaps we can draw inspiration from that case for what might convince Wikipedia to agree to the move, even though some editors will continue to be tirelessly opposed. And maybe we'll be disappointed that in their case it took since 1986... But on the other hand, in the case of Czechia, at least we're not cramming French characters into English... I'm going to dive into the discussion there - whether it was a straightforward case of common name, or whether it was more complex evaluation... Chrz (talk) 09:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

If there is an editor who is tireless on this issue, its you:[17]. And apart from the other editors with many edits on this talkpage, you don't do much unrelated stuff:[18]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Oh joy:Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2024_July#Côte_d'Ivoire. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Even if it were my sole purpose in life, it wouldn't change the situation one bit. Yes, I can already see that the opposers of Côte d'Ivoire's name change are not going to let it go. We'll probably face something similar even if Czechia succeeds in the RM here. Chrz (talk) 11:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that RM discussion won't be very helpful. In the case of Czechia, it's an attempt to push through an English name, while in the case of C.d'I, it's an attempt to push through a name that was originally French. In C.d'I, Ngram supposedly wins (main argument) and has been doing so for a longer time. For Czechia we don't have data for the last 5 years to verify if the situation has improved or what the trend curve looks like. And on top of that the significance of Ngram is being downplayed in the discussion, saying that it only contains books and specialized books, while Wikipedia collects lay expressions from the "general public" like from newspapers. Chrz (talk) 15:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

• Can't we do it already? To me it is obvious it will happen sooner than later. The edit wars this small thing produces are among the most pedantic possible. Super Ψ Dro 23:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

  If you think the time is right, start the WP:RM#CM. If you haven't read it yet, this was the last one: Talk:Czech_Republic/Archive_12#Closure_of_"Rename_to_Czechia"_discussion.

  Like I said somewhere above in this long thread, I'd wait until 6-12 months after the Olympics before starting a new one, there seems to be a hypothesis that this will have an impact on CR/C use. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:23, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, it has been said more than once that it should wait until after the Olympic Games. It is probably not necessary to wait a year after their end, but there is no reason to be impatient to open the debate before the Olympics are over, if it is to be as unambiguous and uncontroversial as possible. FromCzech (talk) 07:34, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  The Associated Press is resisting and rewriting occurrences of "Czechia" to "Czech Republic", including official sports tables. Therefore I'm unsure if the Olympics will change anything. On the photo, the Olympic winner will be dressed in "Czechia" attire, but AP will stubbornly write "winner from the Czech Republic" underneath, and other news sources will just copy sourced AP. Chrz (talk) 16:59, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  Should we do the same on Wikipedia? Malinskt (talk) 12:02, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

  According to the recommendation, the common name should be found and is written EVERYWHERE. If there is a case where two comparable names compete with each other (and it can even be estimated which one is used in which context), it is possible to create a specialized rule for a specific country, as was the case for Macedonia. However, there is probably no longer the will for this, and even the strongest opponents probably sense that soon the common name "Czechia" will be used for Wikipedia. And then it will be the end of the Republic according to the rule of the common name. Chrz (talk) 22:28, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

  I absolutely agree with you. Czechia has been in use for quite some time and nowadays (this year) all sport events, the one held in Czechia included, always use the name Czechia. It is far more than obvious that "the Czech Republic" will be omitted soon. Also, a reply to "common use": just look at Instagram comments, and everyone will see that people use Czechia almost with no exception.

  We can wait just till the Olympics end, but no more; or we can also start it right now. Malinskt (talk) 07:58, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think "the Czech Republic" will be omitted soon, I think mixed use in sources will continue for a long time. Some people still make the gaffe of calling the present country Czechoslovakia. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:15, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  One theory suggests that it is evidence of how poor and poorly chosen the political name "Czech Republic" is/was, because it failed to displace Czechoslovakia. Another theory says that Czechoslovakia was simply a more significant country... it certainly lasted longer than the current smaller republic. Chrz (talk) 17:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

  I have to laugh so hard. Wikipedia keeps begging me for money, and I won't give it a cent until censorship and other Soviet practices end. All sports use the short name and thanks to a few comrades we still have the name Czech Republic. You are clumsy. 46.135.30.118 (talk) 11:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

The window of opportunity

• The WMF will get back to you when they have chased all commies off en-WP. However, they are currently still looking for Hussites, so it may be awhile. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

  Probably a bit of both. User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:55, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Wow. I've read this whole discussion and the sheer level of arrogance, rigidity and hubris has made me end my financial support of Wikipedia after years of contributing. Congrats. 185.63.99.54 (talk) 18:12, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

The Czechs maintain the formal name "Czech Republic" for themselves, so damn them to hell for their arrogance, rigidity, and hubris, right? As for arrogance, it seems to me that it describes the sentiment of someone who reacts with spite when they don't get their way. Largoplazo (talk) 19:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

"...it will lead to no change unless it's demonstrated that "Czechia" has overtaken "Czech Republic" in recent reliable sources written in English."

So blaming it on the Czechs directly contradicts what you repeatedly write elsewhere, which only confirms that this is not rational argumentation, but argumentation from a position of entitlement. Also telling me, a Czech, what "the Czechs" want is a clear disdain. 185.63.99.54 (talk) 19:47, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't blaming it on the Czechs. I was using sarcasm to point out the absurdity of your describing the use of "Czech Republic" as arrogant and rigid, as though the Czechs have figuratively sent that name into fiery oblivion and are beseeching everyone else, imploring everyone else, to stop using it and are outraged by its continuing use. Largoplazo (talk) 01:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

They're just racist at this point. They don't care about accuracy - Czechia is the official name of the country - just their arbitrary policy 120.18.96.112 (talk) 02:37, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

You clearly don't know what "racism" means, and "Czech Republic" is still the official long form name of the country, so if that's racist, then the Czechs are being racist against themselves. Largoplazo (talk) 04:19, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

As a supporter of the name Czechia, I reject this argument. It doesn't help, it harms. Chrz (talk) 17:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

We care greatly about accuracy. Accuracy in reflecting actual English language usage. "Official" means nothing. When the native English speaking population of the world predominately uses "Czechia" we will change. That's just how languages work. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@185.63.99.54: Even if it is true that you have contributed financially to Wikimedia (unusual for someone who doesn't have a username, but whatever), that does not give you the right to buy or extort content. Many of those writing on this page have contributed freely of their time, which for me is a far more valuable resource than money, and they don't cite that as a reason to pull rank. Please don't use that kind of argument here. It just discredits you. Doric Loon (talk) 11:28, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)#Ngrams_updated

For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:47, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

As you might expect, the new data doesn't show that much of a difference from the previous... still a massive lead for Czech Republic in usage: [19][20][21] I can't imagine there being a case for moving this any time soon, at least based on this evidence. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 18:48, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Ouch... Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:35, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Do I sense a malicious joy in that message? Well, firstly, it's clearly up to 2022, even though we know that in many sports (the main driver of usage) it started being used much later. And secondly, I followed the case of renaming Cote d'Ivoire, and there the dominance on Ngram for the renaming wasn't enough, they even mocked Ngram saying it only contains books, which is insignificant. Ngram is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition. The decreasing trend of the republic and the increasing trend of the non-republic can still be seen there, although at a linear pace it would take a long time. It's enough for the BBC and CNN to step up and it's done... Which might be tomorrow, maybe never, nevertheless, the case can be built on other foundations besides Ngram or two news sources. Chrz (talk) 22:10, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I like to think I'm not malicious on this issue, but I did find it ironically humorous. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:43, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

You need to know what kind of ngram sources are being combined. If these are 2+ year old books (and not online news), it's unlikely that they will contain a name that has only been used regularly since around 2022+. Especially in sports, you can expect phrases like 'Czechia wins' or even just 'Czechia'. Chrz (talk) 08:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Just Google, last year, English

"Czechia wins" 776x, "Czech Republic wins" 1040x

"Czechia won" 911x, "Czech Republic won" 2730x

"Czechia has won" 340x, "Czech Republic has won" 691x

The sources would still need to be weighted, but the results are better, if you absolutely must use that phrase. Chrz (talk) 08:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Another angle:[22] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:30, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

"maybe never". Remember that. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:47, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

BBC and CNN would be helpful, but I suspect it wouldn't satisfy you anyway. The argument can be made even without their involvement. I'm not sure why they would continue to stubbornly decline indefinitely. Unless, of course, the Czech Republic were to reconsider and no longer pursue it. Chrz (talk) 20:20, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Does the Czech Republic pursue it? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:51, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Given that the state registered it in as ~ many places as possible, I'd say it's true. A couple of years ago, you (not you you) mentioned here how 'Visit Czech Republic' hadn't been renamed yet, and how you still saw 'Czech Republic' on jerseys. So, the situation is different now. As an example. The transition to the new name is gradual, which was one of the complaints back then - that people don't like sudden changes. And they don't. It's not like other renamings because, as you know, this isn't a complete name change for the country and the 'old' name is still valid. Chrz (talk) 18:29, 29 August 2024 (UTC)