Talk:Cumbrian toponymy

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General Distribution of Brythonic Elements Map

Lovely looking map however pretty misleading. What about the strong number of Brythonic names in the Irthing Valley? What about the cluster around Cockermouth - Blindcrake, Tallentire, Redmain, and up the A595 Blennerhasset, Blencogo etc - the map appears to miss these. Also it seems to show that there are lots of Brythonic names (more than the Irthing Valley e.g.) in the Furness Peninsula and South Cumbria where they are almost wholly missing - Roose, Cark, possibly Cartmel is all there are. I would suggest that the map is redone accurately based on the English Place Names volumes - Cumberland, Westmorland - never seen the Lancs one. Barcud Coch (talk) 13:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Goidelic Influence

I think a strong case can be made for Glencoyne to be Brythonic rather than Goidelic —Preceding unsigned comment added by Barcudcoch (talk • contribs) 13:49, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As pointed out St Sancton - in Kirksanton and ??Santon Bridge was Manx but said to be the son of the British Ruler Sawyl Ben Uchel himself son of Pabo Post Prydain, said to be commemorated in Papcastle nr Cockermouth. Sancton was a Briton.

Also, the name Padrig in Patterdale is in fact a Brythonic name - St Patrick was a Briton - and so its usage in Patterdale and Aspatria may represent the names of local Britons rather than immigrant Gaels. Barcud Coch (talk) 14:04, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ekwall in English Place Names definitely prefers Brythonic over Gaelic for Glencoyne. Knock may look Irish, but there is a modern Welsh cnycyn meaning "hillock" or "mound" which suggests the same root existed in Brythonic - and other placename evidence suggests the vowel shift o > ə was absent in Cumbric. As for Rathmoss, isn't Old Norse rauðr + mosi "red marsh" more likely? Paul S (talk) 19:00, 29 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody has appeared to support the hypothetical Gaeldom in Cumbria, so I'll remove the posited names, including Kinn which has Brythonic cognates in Welsh cein and Cornish keyn Paul S (talk) 01:43, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can see, the Gaelic influence in Cumbria comes as a by-product of Norse settlement from the Gaelic world. Patterdale, Kirksantan and Aspatria are all Norse names, the last two Gaelic-influenced 'inversion compounds'. To me it seems much more simple to assume any Celtic elements came along with an establish Hiberno-Norse culture than to see evidence of British influence. Sanctan and Patrick may have been British in origin, but their cults are distinctly Gaelic. The name Gospatric suggests a Cumbric interest in St Patrick, but it isn't recorded until the 11th century (after the Norse could have re-introduced the Patrick cult to Cumbria). What's more Gospatric seems to be modelled on Gaelic names in Gille etc - there are no Brythonic equivalents.

W. cnycyn < cnwc can't be an historically Welsh word. I. cnoc is < PC *knokk-, which would give W. **cnoch/cnwch. Final -c hardly ever occurs in Welsh words, except when they're borrowed. I agree about Rathmoss. Psammead (talk) 09:17, 19 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ravenglass

Does Place names of Cumberland not suggest the -glas is Celtic? (green/blue). I personally think a case can be made for it being Cumbric/Welsh Yr Hafn Glas (the Green Haven - with Hafn as a loanword from Norse) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Barcudcoch (talk • contribs) 13:52, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some years later I know feel Ravenglass is in fact Rhyn + glas - green peninsula Barcud Coch (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:08, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is the listing of Windscale forbidden?

Why would such a notorious toponym in the whole of Britain nevermind Cumbria not be listed? Seemingly also hard to find Windscale's etmology on the web - so far the only thing I have found anything on its etymology and therefore Windscale is before its nuclear disaster. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.151.234.70 (talk) 22:12, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Abbreviation key - overset "NF" with "AN" for the abbreviation for Anglo-Norman

Seeing as there has never been such a thing as Northern French, overset "NF" with "AN" to stand as the abbreviation for Anglo-Norman

Most Norse seems to be Old English

A very large number of the so called 'Old Norse' terms are equally found, if not more often found, in Old English. This is also a far, far more likely origin for them. I.E Dale, Beck, Thorpe, even Thwaite is cognate with Old English þwitan. There's also really not much evidence on what the article calls a 'huge [Norse] influence' in Cumbria outside of the very shaky linguistic argument and evidence of settlement primarily on what was at the time considered less valuable, even waste lands. Infact it's generally considered unlikely there was very many Scandinavians (especially Viking, of which the distinction is highly important) in Cumbria whatsoever. There definitely were some, but not at all the large diaspora that is implied and definitely not a huge presence spanning the many rivers, mountains, hills and plains as it suggests.

Further, it's argued (I.E Higham's work dating 1984-1986 on Cumbria and specifically Anglian and Scandinavian settlement) that many of the potentially Scandinavian/Viking toponyms, even if they are Scandinavian, are likely far later than would chronologically make sense for Viking settlement. It's important we don't confuse Viking with Scandinavian in general and especially not Norse-Gaels who we know probably made up most of the 'Scandinavian' element anyway. Also, the Gaelic/Irish element seems to be downplayed far too much in the article in contrast to the supposed Viking influence. This strikes me as odd, too.

Overall, I would heavily recommend that the uncertainty be added into the article, i.e 'It's possible some of these toponyms come from Old Norse cognates...' etc etc. and a restructuring of the paragraph pertaining to Scandinavian settlement as a whole, with the list of 'Old Norse' toponyms being heavily revised so as to not lump in so many Old English cognates, of which I found multiple that are generally regarded as primarily OE in origin and not Old Norse, that are erroneously attributed to ON. I'd also suggest emphasising the Norse-Gaelic aspects of the origins of most of the 'Viking' settlers.

With the permission of whomever is the authority here, I'd happily do it myself in the coming weeks/months, and will happily source as heavily as I can. 86.5.160.43 (talk) 22:18, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]