Talk:County Londonderry/Archive 1

Archive 1

Naming

How and why was it decided to put this article at Londonderry instead of Derry? -- Kwekubo 01:22, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Londonderry is the official name of both the city and the county. So what name should we use in official articles?

(1) The official name? or, (2) The name preferred by Irish nationalists?

Prior to the recent Northern Ireland troubles, this controversy did not exist. Everybody accepted that the official name was Londonderry. Many called it Derry for short without any political prejudice whatsoever. You could say either Londonderry or Derry without raising any tension in any company.

The objection to the official name Londonderry is a modern thing dating to the late nineteen seventies. It has been stirred up by Irish republican activists to the extent that most people are now afraid to call it Londonderry. Most guide books call it Derry because they are scared of offending Irish Nationalist opinion. The same guide books never have any problems as regards offending Unionist opinion.

Irish nationalists seem to get confused over the fact that their preferred name 'Derry' is not actually the official name of the city. (211.72.91.97 07:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

I agree, the county is called Derry not Londonderry. The city is a different matter and has decided to call itself "Derry" (Although it has never got it officially changed from Londonderry). Out of respect of the majority of its residents, the city should be referred to as "Derry". Duey Finster 21:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a short discussion of this over at Talk:Derry. --Ikari, 19 Mar 2004.

if the city has changed its name then it needs to do so officially. until then wiki should deal in facts and facts alone. once the citi and county has changed its name the wiki page should be up dated and a section on the name change added. untill then both the city if londonderry and county londonderry should be refereed by their legal names. cheers Dave-o-dagenham (talk) 15:56, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

The county is called Derry I guess if you want to remain technical and call the city Londonderry go ahead even though it is in fact just Derry but the county is not Londonderry and is never referred to as Londonderry Sillybopppy (talk) 20:22, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Coat of Arms

The coat of arms showing in the infobox here for Co. Londonderry is the crest of the city (or the city council, I'm not sure) - is this not a mistake? beano 10:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you are right, the county crest should be this. theKeith 11:31, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Well i am going to take doen the one being currently used, as it is for the city and not the county. Also the county would not currently have a COA for it being that it is no longer an "established county" and that any COA to be used would be historical, which i am kinda leary about adding to the the infobox. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 07:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Most of the other Northern Irish county infoboxes have the historic crest. theKeith 09:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

If most equals 2 out of 6 then i would guess you would be right, the only other two that have it are County Antrim and County Fermanagh, previoulsy a user added cret to the pages, but they were the GAA crest for the county boards and not the historic county crests. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Nationalist/Unionist majority

I know Co Derry has a nationalist majority, but is there any fact links to which the exact percentage is given? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Derry Boi (talk • contribs)

Sorry I keep forgetting to sign the last couple of days (Derry Boi 15:37, 31 August 2006 (UTC))

The county is called Derry/Doire. NOT Londonderry. The county existed as Derry long before Northeren Ireland became part of the United Kingdom and there is no reason why the name Londonderry should be recognised. It would be like invading Devon tomorrow and calling it Dublindevon. Stupid idea, isn't it....? (Ste01 02:10, 05 September 2006 (UTC))

Um sorry but you really need to check history. There was never a county called Derry before the creation of Londonderry. County Londonderry was formed from County Coleraine and a few smaller bits of other counties. There never has been a Couty Derry. Ben W Bell talk 06:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm when did I ever say it shouldn't be called Co Derry?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Derry Boi (talk • contribs)

Derry Boi! ~~~~ after every comment, lol. Anyhoo, Ste01, you should take a look at WP:IMOS which contains a little bit of information about the Stroke City/County issue and how we deal with it on Wikipedia. Back on topic and I have no idea where that data comes from but it sounds right. You could look up CAIN at this address.  <font="center" color="#FFFFFF"> Keithology  Talk!  12:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Damn, sorry. Keep forgetting to sign. (Derry Boi 15:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC))

Vote

Is it possible to have a vote as to what the article is to be titled?? while i have no problem with it being titled 'Londonderry' this is certainly not the title most people use when refering to the county. I think that is also possibly the case when it comes to the majority who actually live in the county?194.237.142.21 14:53, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

• This has already been discussed in depth at Talk:Derry. The compromise reached was to call the city Derry and the county Londonderry. Demiurge 15:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The county is called County Londonderry, never had a different name, nothing to vote on. Ben W Bell 15:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

• Yes it did, it just was never officially called County Derry.

ˑ Ben W Bell you clearly are completely ignorant in this issue. I do not feel that your individual small-minded and bigoted views should dictate the name of a county. In a democratic world, the majority vote rules. If a poll was taken with regards to this county's name, you would find its name most certainly is County Derry (CM).

• Change: The county should be called Co. Derry, and so should this article.If this went to a vote, the majority of the city would vote for Derry, and the majority of the county would vote for Co. Derry. (Derry Boi 13:23, 30 April 2006 (UTC))

Sorry but the county is called County Londonderry it's that simple. I personally don't care what it's called, but the fact is that the county is called County Londonderry. Polls don't matter, just the simple fact of what the county was named. Ben W Bell 16:13, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm with Ben on this, historically the city changed name from Derry. Historically, the county changed name from Coleraine (plus bits of other counties). The wikipedia vote came up with a reasonable compromise - it's a pity the vandals cannot respect this. Blowmonkey 20:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, it is supposed to be completely neutral and unbiased, yet at the same time informative, the official names have to be used because those are the keywords people will most likely use when researching such a place, the current compromise where both names are mentioned in the infobox shouldnt cause any dispute —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.240.229.67 (talk) 18:38, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

County Map

The previous map was wholly inaccurate - Portrush is in County Antrim! I've uploaded and added an 1837 map from Lewis's Atlas, comprising the Counties of Ireland, the boundaries of which are the same as those studied by the Commission of 1925 and subsequently made redundant by the Local Government Act of 1971 :) Belacqua Shuah 12:39, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I uploaded a newer county map on par with the county maps for counties of ireland. these maps highlights the position of the county within the island of Ireland as well as Northern Ireland thus satisfying the pattern shown for the other county maps. I am aware that the other maps was just of Northern Ireland counties, however the location of the county on an "island-wide" basis is more beneficial to tourists and is a compromise that should satisfy both Nationalists and Unionists. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  17:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I must say I disagree. No other country in the world shows its subdivisions and also shows neighbouring countries in the map. There is absolutely no reason to include the outline or otherwise of another country in the map, it makes no sense. The outline of Ireland is unnecessary and irrelevant to the counties of Northern Ireland and has nothing to do with it. French subdivisions don't show the outline of Spain or Germany. US states don't show the outline of Canada or Mexico. There is no reason to include another country in the map, and in fact including it implies some kind of greater connection that isn't there. Ben W Bell talk 19:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Like it or not though Ireland was once united as part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and that is where the counties evolved from. But France was never united with Spain or Germany, nor the United States with Canada and Mexico. Djegan 20:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Ben, I am basing this map on that which is used for all the counties of the island counties of ireland article. This is the reason for it and it does not show any kind of connection with the south except for the shared island that we are all a part of! The reason i have included this map is that the prior map looks like Northern Ireland is an island and this is confusing to foreigners and non-Irish/British citizens. To deny the shared history of how the counties formed in the island, and heir relevance to each other both provincial and historically is ignorant, there is nothing to fear from this map! The counties formed from the old provincial kingdoms and administrative counties created by the British, this is shared in common with the south of Ireland too.

I would be interested in other unionist opinions on this matter, as well as nationalist. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  21:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a Unionist opinion on the matter, just a view. If the consensus is to keep the counties in Ireland as well then so be it, I was just putting forward my opinion and the one that had prevailed for a while. Ben W Bell talk 23:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree Rónán, as it was NI looked like an island. The updated map you uploaded is a perfect compromise. It shows the six counties' location within Ireland, and yet it still shows the border very clearly.Derry Boi 00:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Having said that I have a problem with the "province" as Ulster. It simply ignores the reality that the Northern Ireland counties are part of the UK. The current infobox setup is rather nationalist in scope and ignores any UK specific information as appears on Scottish, English and Welsh county pages; for example Oxfordshire. Again I'm wondering if specific NI templates would be the best compromise, because the county infoboxes for the NI counties right now ignore a massive slice of reality. --Blowdart 12:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Blowdart I understand your loyalty to the UK, however you cannot erase the fact that Ulster (Province) is just as relavent as the counties as both are no longer administrative regions, but used in spoting divisions such as rugby, GAA etc. Ulster more importantly existed as a Province long before NI came into existence. Many unionists use the term "Ulster" to represent NI even though this is, in terms of political bounderies, incorrect and maybe insulting to the nationalist community. To say Ulster=NI is wrong and it is upto the Unionist community to refrain from using the term if they wish not to confuse the NI entity with the Ulster province.

--  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  21:58, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

i cringe...

Is it just me because every time I think of this article I cringe at that "County Londonderry/County Derry" title in the info table, it is uneccessary and should simply be "County Londonderry" as per the article title. Djegan 19:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

It'd be so much easier to write County (London)Derry, would it not?

thats the most moronic suggestion yet "(London)Derry", "Londonderry" and "Derry" are two separate names —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.240.229.67 (talk) 18:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

why is it moronic- i guarantee you are not from the derry area, most likely an american, because (London)Derry is how it is written alot around here, along with L'Derry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.195.242.189 (talk) 17:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Name and preferences

Just pointing out that the naming and preferences of different community needs a proper reference. It's been tagged for over two months and has had none supplied. While yes I know it is true, without a reliable reference it is going to be deleted in the future. Canterbury Tail talk 15:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Did you spot there is a whole article about it, full of references, linked from that sentence? Might there be something constructive you could do than making that comment? See [1] - happy now? 86.172.32.146 (talk) 06:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

No need to get wound up about it, references were asked for that is all. Any such claims need to be backed up by references in the article in which they are used. All that was being asked for was the references to them, which I had no doubt existed. Canterbury Tail talk 11:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It would have taken you just one click to find them instead of wasting time here. 86.172.32.146 (talk) 19:15, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

And the reader needs to be able to find it on that page, not the editors. Canterbury Tail talk 20:13, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The reader can find it in one click to the name dispute page. You could have edited this article if you cared so much. 86.172.32.146 (talk) 22:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

South Derry

I'm thinking of making an article called "South Derry".

Now South Derry isn't necessarrilya defined place with an official name. It is a term used by many in South Derry to say where they're from, to describe the location of a town or village, but most reguarly it is used in GAA circles to talk about South Derry Clubs, South Derry leagues, etc. While not really having a specifically defined border, most take it to be the area of South Derry GAA clubs. It is an area like South Armagh is, or North Down is, or East Belfast is, etc. It's never called "South Londonderry", therefore that has no need to be the title. Opinions? (Derry Boi 10:30, 7 October 2006 (UTC))

Why not start your article off as a section of this article called South Derry? Then, later, County Londonderry may eventually become too big and need to spin off South Derry as a separate article.

I am afraid that readers might get irritated or even confused by the extensive overlap between several area articles, such as: South Derry, County Londonderry, Cookstown District Council, Magherafelt District Council.

If you do write a good South Derry article, I editors will be tempted to copy and paste a lot of it into County Londonderry anyway, to make the county article less stubby. Just a thought. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 11:31, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I know I would be tempted :) --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 11:38, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

If we create a new article in this style make sure it does not conflict with WP:NOR, if we are talking about south Derry (note the lowercase) then that hardly deserves an article in its own right. We do not create placename articles for each point of the compass. Djegan 20:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

But South Derry is a place its its own right. If someone asks me where I'm from, I don't say "County Derry", or I don't say "Derry", I say South Derry. It's like saying you're from South Armagh, or as mnay Dubliners say they're from the "Northside" or the "Southside". Especially in GAA circles it is a common term. (Derry Boi 21:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC))

Where would it be? South Londonderry (UK Parliament constituency)? --Henrygb 22:37, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

It appears, at first glance, that "Now South Derry isn't necessarrilya defined place with an official name" (sic) and "But South Derry is a place its its own right" is a conflict in your opinion. Either it is one or the other. If it is a defineable place then it should be possible to show reputable sources. I hope it is not a pov-fork to avoid WP:IMOS. Djegan 15:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Meant to say "South Derry isn't necessarrily a place defined with an official ". BUt it is generally taken to be the area that covers the South Derry GAA league. (Derry Boi 18:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC))

More recently (i.e. to 1972) there was South Londonderry (NI Parliament constituency). [2] gives "The part of the Rural District of Coleraine which consists of the district electoral divisions of Bovagh, Bovedy, Garvagh, Hervey Hill, Kilrea, and Lislea. The part of the Rural District of Magherafelt which consists of the district electoral divisions of Aghagaskin, Ballynease, Ballyronan, Bellaghy, Castledawson, Clady, Desertmartin, Gulladuff, Maghera, Magherafelt, Moneymore, Newbridge, Ringsend, Rocktown, Salterstown, The Loop, Tobermore, and Upperland." Remember that this is for pre-reform districts. I must admit, I would have thought Draperstown was in the south of the county, but apparently it was in "Mid Londonderry". --Henrygb 20:29, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Contrary to DerryBoi's statements, South Derry has been called 'South Londonderry' - in fact South Londonderry used to be the name of a UK Parliament Constituency - how more official can you get? The UUP and DUP also frequently state it as South Londonderry as do many other organisations. South Derry is only the preference of nationalists, or as a short-hand expression by unionists. Mabuska (talk) 18:31, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Derry

Doire/Contae Dhoire is the Irish for Derry/County Derry. There is no direct translation for Londonderry in the Irish language. Just thought I would point that out.--Play Brian Moore 23:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted it, but just seen this comment. My belief is that a direct translation of "County Londonderry" is not unresonable or unprecidented - but if their is little consensus or practice of it in Irish then please feel free to revert my revert. Djegan 17:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no translation of it in Irish. Derry is already an anglicised form of an Irish word. To then gaelicise London (Londháin perhaps) and tack it would seem illogical in Gaelic. Not only that but no one who speaks Irish would ever call the place Londonderry in English anyway, so its never come up. As regards the comment above that most people who search for the county would do so on the official name, that is patent rubbish. Only Unionists in Ireland call it that, and a few people in Britain, and even in Britain Derry is the normal form.

The people who live there mostly call it Derry, most people in Britain call it Derry, and everyone else around the world calls it Derry. Its called Derry. The unionists and few old toffs in Whitehall can call it what they want, but its still called Derry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.85.88 (talk) 17:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone else here hate it when there is such a prefix onto a county?

Not one self respecting Irish person would ever call Derry, whether the city or the county, with the application of "London" before it. To have such a prefix is hated in the Republic and by Nationalist's and Rebulicans in the North. So really is anyone else bothered by applying "London" onto something Irish?

Reply

Few people ever seem to enquire into the heart of this matter. This is all about the bigotry of some Irish catholics who despise anything that is British. They want to have the word London removed from Londonderry, purely because London is British. That is what it is all about.

The word London is in the name Londonderry for very good reasons. It was the City of London that set up the whole City of Londonderry in the 17th century. Any village called Doire, that was there before the walled City of Londonderry was built, is entirely irrelevant. The modern city originates in the 17th century. It was originally a protestant city. Anybody who reads an account of the siege of 1689 will understand the historical importance of this city in the minds of protestants. By about the year 1884, catholic numbers in Londonderry overtook the protestants due to migration of catholics from neighbouring county Donegal into the Bogside area to the west of the city walls.

The catholics control the city today. This is all the more reason why they should show respect to the protestant minority and drop this shameful and divisive dispute once and for all. The dispute is motivated by shear bigotry on the part of some catholics who want to wipe out all traces of the British origins of the city. The protestants managed to cling unto power in the city between 1884 and 1968 despite being in the minority. However, those days are now over. The catholics are in control and that is unlikely to change. Can they not therefore move forward to the future, and stop winding the protestants up. The city is called Londonderry. Drop the matter, and if you want to call the city Derry for short, then do so. But official documents should always call it Londonderry.

If there was any bad government in the past when the protestants were in control, it was due to fear of a loss of control of a city which is a Jerusalem in the minds of the protestants. The catholics who now control the city are in a large majority and they should show magnamity to their protestant brothers and drop the bitterness of the past. The protestants will not get control again. The catholics should therefore encourage the promotion of references to the protestant history of the city as a gesture of goodwill. (211.72.91.97 11:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

If? You speak as if there is some debate on the matter. Wide spread vote rigging, gerrymandering, and employment restrictions were used to grind catholics into the mud. In a city which is 90 percent catholic, only 10 percent of councilmen were elected by the catholic electorate. You know this, if you are of an age, you probably supported it. You sound as if you are nostalgic for it. Unionists can call it what they want, and so can their few remaining supporters in Whitehall. Everyone else on Earth calls it what it is - Derry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.85.88 (talk) 18:11, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Well the thing is the county is called County Londonderry, that is it's name. It's not simply a case that it is a County Derry prefixed with a London, the entire county was created as County Londonderry from County Coleraine. The name of the county hasn't altered since under any official means and therefore is called County Londonderry. Some may like the name, some may not, but the end reason for it being called County Londonderry on Wikipedia is simply a matter of that being its name. Ben W Bell talk 07:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Before the 1960s, most people in the area called the city and county "Londonderry" formally but usually "Derry" informally, and had done for the previous 350 years. This "hate" (and its reaction on the opposite side) is modern and was probably taught. Also note that every county in Ireland was originally created by the English (or the Normans). --Henrygb 16:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

"efore the 1960s, most people in the area called the city and county "Londonderry" formally but usually "Derry" informally, and had done for the previous 350 years."

Don't know where you pulled that from. Derry Boi 16:52, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I assume you know the words of The Sash. This [3] from 1965 will do as an example in reverse where Derry and Londonderry seem to be used almost at random and the emotions are directed at the situation, not the name. The city's coat of arms (with or without a harp) seems to be tolerable to its council and residents, and the top clearly indicates London (though perhaps they don't realise that). --Henrygb 20:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, this "hate" is quite artificial and very difficult to understand even as an Irishman, and ultimately the counties were not an Irish creation anyway. Why should "County Londonderry" be anymore offensive to an Irishman than the English name "County Dublin" or "County Cork"? Djegan 16:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm from the south, and I've always just known it to be County Derry. It's nothing to do with me being a bigot. I reckon that Derry comes more from the fact that 4 syllables to describe your county is a bit unwieldly. I don't find Londonderry offensive, why would I, I don't find London London offensive. The London part of the name seems redundant, only because it's always been know to me as just Co.Derry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.146.200 (talk) 23:40, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Semi-protect

Can someone please semi-protect this page and the Derry page? They are being excessively vandalized with Derry being changed to Londonderry or vice-versa. FF3000 · talk 09:12, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the vandalism is excessive. Yes it happens every few days, but it's not overboard or burdensome. However if others thing it's a good idea I'll put it under at least a temporary protection. Canterbury Tail talk 18:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Subdivisions

Derive tags work like this - language of origin, then what the word is in that language, then what it means in English. Thus Keenaght is derived from the Irish Cianachta - which is English means Clan Cain. Clann is Irish not English. Just like in English Uí Fhloinn is spelt as O'Lynn and thus it should be O'Lynn - Ui Fhloinn is already meantioned in the Irish origin word for it. Tirkeeran derives from the Irish is Tír Mhic Caoirthinn, however in English it is not Mac Caoirthinn it is Cartin or McCartin. Don't mix and match languages when the native is already clearly mentioned before the English meaning. Mabuska (talk) 19:00, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm well aware how the derive tag works. Irish names often have a few different anglicisations. For example Ó Cearnaigh can be anglicised as Kearney, Carney, Carnie, etc. Hence I thought it best to use the original name. But if you want to stick to anglicisations, that's fine.
However, you removed the parishes and townlands without giving any reasons. Why was that? ~Asarlaí 01:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes you thought it best. Having the Anglicisation for the word also makes it far easier for someone to understand how the Irish word is pronounced. Only people with good knowledge of Irish would know that Ó Cearnaigh can be Kerney, Carney, or Carnie - to the blissfully ignorant it could be pronounced O'Cearnag (as in English nag) or O'Carnack (just like Maghera is pronounced by many as Mack-era when its not suppossed to be). Just like Ui Fhloinn; in Ulster its pronounced O'Lynn yet someone not knowing that would think its O'Flynn or O'Fhlon - which is wrong. As i said keep Irish to the Irish part and English to the English part and then everyone can understand. Variations shouldn't matter - the commonly accepted and documented Anglicisation should take precedence, which i have included for them.

On the parishes and townlands i didn't notice i had accdientally got rid of them too when i undid your revision. My apologies on that part. Though the Londonderry townland article is a joke the way its done and laid out. Mabuska (talk) 13:58, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

So whats a traditional county of Ireland and misleading lede...

Please see this issue i've raised at WikiProject Ireland over the intro to Irish county articles and on some specifics related to this article which i believe are misleading and controversial. Mabuska ^(talk) 00:22, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Northern Ireland county maps

There is a discussion ongoing about the locator maps for Northern Ireland counties — see here.
~Asarlaí 19:51, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Lede

I think the lede could be improved in this article. The MOS prefers 4 paragraphs and I think that a re-ordering of the information may be better. I suggest the following order of paragraphs be: 1, 4, 3, (2 + 5). Bjmullan (talk) 19:38, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

no objections to that proposal, certainly agree that the two small paragraphs should be merged. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:44, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Daire not Dhoire

I think that User talk:Tomtwenty may be vandalising the page by claiming that "Dhoire" is the origin of the name. I have now added a reference to prove that I'm right. It always said "Daire" on the page until Tomtwenty changed the name, and two other users have reverted it, User:Mabuska and User:Tameamseo. Mabuska has left a message on Tomtwenty's talk page about the situation, but the user has ignored it.--FF3000 (talk) 16:39, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually it always said Doire until about two weeks ago, and the reference you provided states doire is also correct. Canterbury Tail talk 20:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

No, the point is that instead of "Daire" or "Doire" being used, "Dhoire", with a h was being used. That is incorrect Irish.--FF3000 (talk) 22:18, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Okay, not saying you're wrong as I never paid much attention in my Irish classes, but I see Dhoire all the time in relation to Derry. The city airport, city etc. Are these all incorrect? Canterbury Tail talk 11:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

The "h" is used if you use a word before it e.g. Aerfort Dhoire, which translates to "Derry Airport", or Cathair Dhoire, which translates to "Derry City". It is known as the séimhiú, and is an important feature in the Irish language. However, when the word is used on its' own i.e. if you wanted to say simply "Derry", then "Doire", without the "h" is used. Basically you could say that "Dhoire" means "of Derry".--FF3000 (talk) 19:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, can you find a better reference that explains all this, and shows the correct name source? A good reference is worth it's weight and will finish all this under the grounds of verifiability. Canterbury Tail talk 21:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Have tried lots of different searches, but I can't get what I'm looking for. Current reference is OK though, as it explains what is mentioned on the page.--FF3000 (talk) 22:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

ff3000 is correct. Doire is the correct Irish translation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.67.178 (talk) 12:19, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

For the county this issue is a no brainer. County Londonderry is a not an anglicisation of an older Irish name for the county, as previously it was County Coleraine. Rather Contae Dhoire in the Irish translation for County Londonderry as is correct.

Daire on the other hand is correct for the city article. The IMOS in regards to Irish in NI settlement intros is to have the derivation of the place in the lede and the modern Irish translation of a place in the infobox. "Derry" in modern Irish is Doire, however Doire is the modern evolved form of Daire. "Derry" was long in existence before this word evolved into Doire. Dhoire i believe is the correct Irish form to use in this context. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:58, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

County Derry

In Ireland ,the country where this county is situated, the County is ALWAYS referred to as Derry. The city is sometimes referred to as LondonDerry, generally by Unionists and British people. But the county is, was and always will be Derry.

Here are the three official crests of Derry: http://www.emerald-isle-gifts.com/images/articulos/rug07dy.jpg http://www.abitofhome.ca/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/4010906.jpg http://faughanvale.gaelsport.com/graphics/Kearney%20Hasson%20and%20Bradley%20Doire%20Crest%20Med%20size.JPG

None of which mention London.

The County is called Derry, the city can be called LondonDerry if that is peoples wish. But NOBODY in Ireland calls the county LondonDerry. This semi-protection on the name County LondonDerry is a joke. Perhaps English people would like to pretend that it's called LondonDerry but it's not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.67.178 (talk) 12:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

In the United Kingdom, the country in which the county is located, the county is called County Londonderry. People in the Republic of Ireland can call it whatever they want, it has no influence on the name of a county in another Country. And it's has always officially been County Londonderry, County Derry is not official. Canterbury Tail talk 14:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Just because Britain are occupying part of IRELAND, does not make it part of Britain. And no, it has not always officially been County Londonderry. It was renamed by some British people who had never even been there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.184.67.178 (talk) 14:25, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

It's not part of Britain, it's part of the United Kingdom and everyone agrees and acknowledges that even the Irish government. Beyond that is personal politics which have no place on Wikipedia. Yes it was not always County Londonderry, it was renamed from County Coleraine, and took some parts of Fermanagh and Antrim to create the new county of County Londonderry. It was not called County Derry prior to the creation of County Londonderry, it was County Coleraine and has different borders. Historically there has never been a County Derry, just County Londonderry. The history is all quite well explained at County Londonderry. Canterbury Tail talk 16:40, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You mean Tyrone not Fermanagh :-P The land of the barony of Loughinsholin which is about a quarter/third of the county, used to be in Tyrone - the rest formed County Coleraine, and prior to that it was known as O'Cahans Country. County Derry? Has never existed. Hardly occupied either seeing as most of Northern Irelands inhabitants are happy being in the UK. But oh well you can't please everyone. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and yes, the English version of history is lovely isn't it. --86.184.67.178 (talk) 17:49, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Not the English version of history, it's the history version of history. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't true. Anyway this isn't constructive to the improvement of the article. Canterbury Tail talk 21:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The history version of history? Firstly, that doesn't make sense. Secondly it's complete garbage. It's the English version of history. Simple as that. I don't like it BECAUSE it's not true. --86.183.195.76 (talk) 00:38, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Mark Sheridan (talk) 15:40, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

With what? Check all the references, there was never officially a County Derry in the history of Ireland or Northern Ireland. Canterbury Tail talk 17:03, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Hmm lets see, before there was County Londonderry as named by King James I, there was County Coleraine (minus Magherafelt district), then before its creation in 1584/5 the area was called O'Cahans Country, a minor kingdom that was part of the greater O'Neill kingdom, named obviously after the O'Cahans (now O'Kanes). Before that it was Ciannachta. No mention of a County Derry in its history British or pre-British. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:51, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

You're point? I'm not looking for your silly history lessons, I'm just saying the majority call it Derry since Derry has a Nationalist majority since about the seventies thanks to a few controversial (Bloody Sunday) British acts. Sorry for the off-topic patronising, I just couldn't resist. Mark Sheridan (talk) 19:59, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

The political motivations of the people of Londonderry has nothing to do with the its name. County Londonderry forms part of Northern Ireland which forms part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Until that situation is changed, what a bunch of nationalists think or want should make no difference. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:22, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

My point? Silly history lessons? Its ignorants who don't know their history or even true history that lead to years of terrorism and sectarianism here. Who cares if the majority of Derry call it Derry, the majority of Northern Ireland call it Londonderry. Its official name is Londonderry. Until that changes the county and city will still officially be Londonderry. Derry City Council has failed endlessly in their attempts to officially change the city name its not going to change in the forseeable future other than on Wikipedia.

Unfortunately BritishWatcher it is political motivations that has to do with the name problem - its anti-British flvaour at its greatest. If the city had of been named Derrie as King James I had originally intended or called it New Derry or Newtownderry - there would be no problem today - its only because it contains London the capital of the big "enemy" that there is a problem despite the fact its only in remembrance to the London companies who built the city. Ancient Derry for a silly history lesson was built on the west side of the Foyle and after the Irish destroyed it, the English built a new Derry on the east side of the Foyle so they aren't the same settlements in technicality. The Irish destroyed Derry, if they hadn't it would never have had to rebuilt across the river and renamed in honour of the companies who built it. So whilst nationalists complain, its Irish who led to its present naming. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:17, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Why is County Derry mentioned in the infobox? Before it was called County Londonderry, it was County Coleraine so where did County Derry come from?Factocop (talk) 09:55, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Despite the fact it has no basis in history and is a prime example of anti-British racism as there was never a County Derry before County Londonderry unlike the city, meaning there is no other grounds for the removal of "London" from it, its no doubt because its used by a large minority in Northern Ireland, by a foreign state (RoI), and by a sporting organisation which does have a lot of supporters (GAA). Mabuska ^(talk) 13:50, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

And it is also widely used by that well know anti-British establishment The British Broadcasting Corporation [4]. Bjmullan (talk) 13:59, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

You know sometimes i have to admit even if your joking or not, the BBC is quite anti-British sometimes lol. Though the usage of the term as an alternative to County Londonderry is well documented and sourced so it can't be ignored on a whim Factocop and has merits for inclusion. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:08, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

How dare you Mabuska speak about Auntie like that ;-) Bjmullan (talk) 14:24, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Ill admit that it does have merits for inclusion but I cant help but stumble upon the tiny little insignificant mountain of FACT that is, the County was never called County derry! It is a struggle but I guess given that I have been on Wikipedia for a while minus the time spent blocked for false accusations of sockpuppetry...I should be use to FACT being dismissed so easily. I think the only way around this is for me to pen a book titled 'Northern Ireland as it is' and use that as a source?Factocop (talk) 15:37, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry Factocop but that idea would fail on two points WP:OR and WP:COI. :-) Bjmullan (talk) 15:44, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. How would anyone know that Factocop is the alias of a soon to be world famous author of the book 'Northern Ireland as it is' ?Factocop (talk) 09:23, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Random comment -- Percy Grainger, a well-known Australian composer, named his arrangement of the Londonderry Air "Irish tune from County Derry". This dates from approximately 1908. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:21, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Irish Translation

Why is it not allowed to have an Irish Translation for County Londonderry?Factocop (talk) 16:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

There is a Irish translation for the county but in Ireland and in Irish it is called County Derry and that is how it is translated. If you do a Google search for "Contae Londain Dhoire" you will get no results but on the other hand "Contae Dhoire" will bring back 8,730 results. Hope this helps. Bjmullan (talk) 16:26, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Are you saying we should remove the translation all together given that there is no translation for County Londonderry and the only tranlsation there is, is for a county that doesnt exist given by another country?Factocop (talk) 16:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

If there are no objections, I will remove the Irish translation in the interests of neutrality and accuracy....?Factocop (talk) 09:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

There is no Irish name for County Londonderry, and no valid rationale for removal of the native name. O Fenian (talk) 09:52, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

The native name is County Londonderry so dont worry, ill not be removing it? what is wrong with putting the irish words for London and Derry together?Factocop (talk) 10:02, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

The native language of Ireland is Irish. If you have a reliable source for there being an Irish name for "County Londonderry" provide it, if not I will not indulge you any further. O Fenian (talk) 10:09, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Can you help me O Fenian? Are you by any chance 1 of the 3% of people who live on the Island of Ireland that can speak Irish fluently? if so can you help me concatenate the irish words for County, London and Derry? Also given that County Derry has never existed in the history of Ireland, and prior to being named County Londonderry it was called County Coleraine, why is the native irish name not a tranlsation of County Coleraine? Although given that the counties were divided up by the english, surely then the native name would pre-exist even County Coleraine? You can try and indulge me but I feel ill be left disappointed...but not surprised.Factocop (talk) 10:42, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

O Fenian can't help you Factocop as to do so would be WP:OR. There is NO direct translation for County Londonderry used in the Irish language. The Irish translation IS Contae Dhoire. What part of that do you not understand? Bjmullan (talk) 10:46, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps Factocop you can explain why you removed the translation? Please do not remove it again without first getting consensus here first. Bjmullan (talk) 10:57, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

So it has to be a direct translation? ok I understand.Thanks. At least, shouldnt the Irish Translation be cited or referenced? I think ive made a good point though that the native name for County Londonderry would pre-exist any english involvement? I dont think it is right to have an Irish Translation of the city given by a body from another country ie. Republic of Ireland, given that the ROI government refuses to acknowledge the silent 'London' in Londonderry and up until recently refused to even print Londonderry on irish passports. Is there an irish language council for Northern Ireland? The current Irish Translation would be correct if the county were called Derry but the fact still remains that it is called Londonderry. I will accept an Irish translation for Londonderry or an irish name prior to english involvement but I will not accept an irish translation for a name only used by the nationalist community, GAA or the ROI government and associated bodies. It is not neutral and to remain the same would be politically biased.Factocop (talk) 11:02, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

You will find that Irish is an official language of Northern Ireland, and is used by the Northern Ireland Assembly. English is not an official language of Northern Ireland, for the record. O Fenian (talk) 17:00, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Err ... great.Thanks O Fenian. Any relevant points to make?Factocop (talk) 22:44, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok given that there has been no response to my previous posts and no constructive argument generated, I think it is safe to remove the Irish name.Factocop (talk) 19:08, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Please do not remove it. Your tone here has, at times, been less than appropriate. Please read WP:3RR. Djegan (talk) 19:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

If you want 'proof' etc try this. Don't put your poor choice of comments into action. Go it alone if you want - but there will be consequences for sillyness. Djegan (talk) 19:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I have left a note at Factocop (talk · contribs) talk page asking him not to remove the translation again and to bring his concerns here. Bjmullan (talk) 19:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If I may make a mention that although I have found a couple (literally) of results in an Ask Jeeves search, 1 from the derry city council Irish translation and the other from the Irish Times for Contae Londaindhoire, even I know that although Londaindhoire is the direct translation of Londonderry, it isn't correct. It's a bit like the word for 99 in French does not directly translate to the English words ninety nine. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 19:32, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi Bjmullan, can you answer the questions I posted on 11:02, 22 October 2010?19:26, 27 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Factocop (talk • contribs)

• The Irish language is not a literal language were we have an exact translation of any given word, you won't find a translation for LDerry as the county in Irish is called Doire. Mo ainm~Talk 19:31, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Hopefully Factocop the input from both Mo ainm (talk · contribs) and The C of E (talk · contribs) will clear up the reason why Contae Dhoire is used. BTW CofE I do like your 99 example. Ninety nine is translated to Quatre-vingt-dix-neuf in french or put another way 99 = 4 x 20 + 10 + 9. Don't you just love the French :-) Bjmullan (talk) 19:44, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

My point was that I dont think that a source from another country should be recognised as reliable given that the country in question is at times anti-british. I understand the Irish translation is not literal but it is still biased and non-neutral. Can you find a source from Northern Ireland that supports the Irish name of the County?Factocop (talk) 23:34, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. There is no political test for sources - you can't debunk something just because your biased. It is recognised. Djegan (talk) 09:26, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

So based on your biased, the sources stay? can you answer my questions from 11:02, 22 October 2010? Just say no, if you can't but dont dodge the discussion by going off on a pointless tangent. Thank you.Factocop (talk) 09:37, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Read the wikipedia policies then come back to me. You are clearly so frough with detestation for the Irish language that you have lost sight of reality. You comments above don't always put you in a good faith light. Djegan (talk) 09:45, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

No not at all. I have no problem with the use of the Irish language given that I am from Northern Ireland but it would be nice if the Irish name could come from a source of Northern Ireland rather than a foreign country, that is all? can you answer my questions from 11:02, 22 October 2010? That would help this discussion a great deal.Factocop (talk) 17:57, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Hopefully the following will help Factocop. The answers to his questions:

1. So it has to be a direct translation? - In this case no, the translation is not direct. There is no rule only what the other langauage uses. The other example given above was 99 in English doesn't have a direct translation in French but 1, 2, 3, 4 , 5 ,6 do.

2. At least, shouldnt the Irish Translation be cited or referenced? - Yes it should and I have included a reference from the National Museum of Ireland. If you look at the reference in Google Chrome and ask Google to translate the text you will see Is ann do mhuincí simplí de stialla órga casta chomh maith leis an muince órga aoibhinn a fuarthas ar an gcladach ag Brú Íochtair, Contae Dhoire turn into There is simply mhuincí golden strip complex along with the beautiful golden necklace found on the shore at Lower Pressure, County Londonderry.

3. I think ive made a good point though that the native name for County Londonderry would pre-exist any english involvement? - I think this is a statement rather than a question.

4. Is there an Irish language council for Northern Ireland? - Kind of. As part of the Good Friday agreement a North/South Implementation body was set up to promote both the Irish language and the Ulster Scots language. More information can be found here.

If you are still unsure about anything please ask but please do not revert without getting consensus here. Bjmullan (talk) 19:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

To give a little interest to this, I have actually found the use of a direct translation. I found this from the Irish Times (which I gather is a majority nationalist newspaper in Northern Ireland) which seems to use Londaindhoire. However as Bjmullan has stated there are other sources which use Dhoire. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 08:11, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

The Irish Times is published in Ireland and also distributed in the North. It is a shame Factocop will not be able to use that to add the translation to the Derry article (it does not give a county name) since he rejects sources from so-called foreign countries. O Fenian (talk) 10:24, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

"Londaindoire" - i always knew there was a more accurate and non-bigoted and politically-motivated Irish translation of Londonderry! :-P Interestingly the Irish Times might now be a nationalist newspaper but for most of its history it was a proudly Unionist newspaper before its takeover. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:00, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

The article isn't really about very much, except that he is saying that Northern nationalists and unionists have more in common with each other, in the same way that people in Cork and Kerry do. That he goes on to say that partition is so deeply entrenched that the only times this is breached is when you have Armagh or Tyrone in the All-Ireland Final, or when Mary McAleese was elected as President! He is also saying that Partition is a fiction, when you take into account all the Southerners who go up there to do their Christmas shopping! The actual paragraph can be translated into English as "Londonderry [sic] welcomed Sorley Maguire in the 1990s and even though their soccer team is in the doldrums at the moment, they play in the Irish League, apart from that mini-league between Belfast and Craigavon. No doubt, they do their shopping in Doire Calgaigh (ancient name for Derry)." Mo ainm~Talk 11:11, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Well there is an actually used Irish form for Londonderry - "Londan-Doire" - that is attested in Irish poetry according to the Oxford Companion to Irish History. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:00, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Dhoire\Doire

This is just a question regarding the Irish name for the county, I know the city is Doire. Are they used differently grammatically or is there another reason for two names? :: Keith :: 18:42, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

"Doire" = "Derry"
"Dhoire" = "of Derry"
"Contae Dhoire" = "County of Derry"

In other words, "Dhoire" isn't a separate word, it's just the genitive of the same word. Hope that helps. Rinne na dTrosc 22:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually the "h" is an aspiration due to the word "condae" that comes before it. You cannot have it meaning "of" in a singular form "Dhoire" in Irish. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  17:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Side note; I hope I'm writing this in the right place: shouldn't it read 'Doire/ Londaindoire' as it is in English & Ulster Scots? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.95.161.72 (talk) 19:59, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 77.101.85.181, 17 November 2010

{{edit semi-protected}}

TAKE ALL REFERENCE TO LONDONDERRY OUT OF THE BODY OF THIS ARTICLE AS IT HAS NOT EVER BEEN CALLED LONONDERRY GEOGRAPHICALLY NOR EVER WILL BE AND THIS IS A POLITICAL TERM TO START SECTARIAN ROWS.

THANKS PEACE MUCH LOVE

77.101.85.181 (talk) 00:53, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Declined. Please read the article. Canterbury Tail talk 02:03, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

There has never been a county derry. It has always been known as County Londonderry and current consensus is that co. Londonderry is the name used in Wikipedia for County Londonderry. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 12:39, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Typical sectarian ignorant bigot. Decline request. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:54, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Why not just put in both separated by a '/' as a middle-ground? Alternatively, the following might be a possibility: "(London)Derry". The following is from another wikipedia page on the matter and may be useful.

That's not done because it is to avoid Stroke City style. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 08:19, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Media

The BBC guideline for news broadcasts is that the city should be referred to as Londonderry during the initial reference, and then both terms interchangeably. Account may be taken for the context. Other UK broadcasters tend to follow suit.

The University of Ulster's media guidelines state "we should be conscious of the audience for whom we are writing so the terminology should be varied according to the audience."

Media in the Republic of Ireland always use "Derry".

The style guides for different newspapers address the dispute variously:

The Times

"Londonderry, but Derry City Council; and Derry when in direct quotes or in a specifically republican context (this latter rarely)"

The Guardian

"Londonderry: use Derry and Co Derry"

http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Derry/Londonderry_name_dispute

In response to 77.101.85.181 - why must people with no knowledge of the simplest facets of Irish history always make demands that end up making them look stupid? I really don't understand it. Do they not read the article before commenting or just see the name and go red. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:59, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

What I love about you Canterbury Tail, CofE and Mabuska is that you will actual reply to the rubbish requests while the rest of us just ignore them. I raise my hat to you! Bjmullan (talk) 23:12, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Then why the response if you like to ignore such topics? A talk page notice would of sufficed instead :-P Mabuska ^(talk) 10:58, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

References

Contae Dhoire -vs- Contae Londaindhoire

I am not opposed in any way to using both Derry and Londonderry in English, as both phrases exist side-by-side in this day and age; but as previously discussed here, I agree that the term Londaindhoire in Irish is manufactured and non-existant in the natural language, so I think it should be kept as what the county/city is known as naturally - simply Doire or Contae Dhoire. This is not by any means intended to be a controversial statement or intended to offend, but rather stating a fact of matter.

The modern day Irish Doire, as you may know, refers to Doire Cholm Cille, Columbkille's Oak Grove, and Doire is the shortened version which is the standard and non-disputed term for the city and county in Irish.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.217.49.29 (talk) 12:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's quite correct. There are enough issues to be dealt with, instead of making up new and irrelevant terms that can only confuse people.Hohenloh (talk) 03:49, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

What...! I'm in favour of people using the Contae Londandhoire spelling, as it show that the irish gaelic language respects people how wish to call the county and city by it's offical name of Londonderry/Londandhoire, thought due to the irish rule of spelling, the 'i' before the second 'n' would haved to be removed as it break the primary rule of slender with slender, broad with broad. If your all so anti Londonderry why not change the county's name back to its original of County Coleraine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.42.35 (talk) 20:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Stick to official names rather than scrupulous ideas. It takes up the time of people who are trying to improve articles on Wikipedia.--Theosony (talk) 04:20, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It is not the job of Wikipedia to tell the Irish how to speak their language. Making up names is very misleading and will further confuse outside readers. Whether you like it or not, Irish has a settled name for the place, that is not a matter for debate but a verifiable fact. While the Derry/Londonderry kerfuffle will roll on as to its English naming, there is no debate or controversy in Irish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.85.88 (talk) 18:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Nationalists only have a problem with the name Londonderry because it includes the name London in it, and thats the simple reason why they don't have an official Irish version of it. If King James I had decided to call the city Derrie as he originally intended or lets just say call it New Derry (seeing as the old one was destroyed by the Irish in the first place and thus they created the whole problem) i bet there wouldn't be a problem or single issue with it today. Its simple bigotry over the name London, which was only added afterall to give acknowlegdement to the fact it was the London companies that rebuilt the place. Mabuska (talk) 11:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Well of course nationalists have a problem with London being in the name, because the English messed around with an Irish name. And the Irish didn't destroy the old Derry. The British just destroyed it when they carried out the plantations, and if the plantations hadn't have been carried out there would be no such thing as Unionists, instead the native Irish would still be there today. Also, this carry-on about "official names" is ridiculous. The article about Germany is called "Germany", for example, while the official name is "Federal Republic of Germany". The common name is the most important, and "Londonderry" is only very rarely used outside Northern Ireland. Every tourist I've met refers to the place as "Derry", and Derry also yields more results than Londonderry on Google, with Derry getting 8.72 million results and Londonderry getting 6.56 million results. And "Londaindhoire", by the way, gets 63 results. FF3000 (talk) 12:09, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually your wrong. England captured Derry is 1566, and lost it 1567. They captured it again 1600, and a new town was built in 1603, still called Derry at this time. This new town however was destoryed by the Irish, under Cahir O'Doherty in 1608. It was after this that the Plantation of Ulster would occur and a second new settlement was built, with it being called Londonderry after the London companies who built it and given a city charter in 1613. So yes the Irish did destroy Derry with it being rebuilt and renamed afterwards. Even the Derry Wikipedia article states that Cahir O'Doherty destroyed Derry.

Not all people of Plantation stock are Unionists and not all Unionists are of Plantation stock - thats gross simplification of a complex matter and such a statement beggers belief.

Also just because Derry appears more often than Londonderry on Google doesn't mean its more popular, just like the fact there are more Londonderry settlements in the USA than Derry settlements shouldn't be used to say that Londonderry is more popular. I can also easily say that i've met many tourists too that say Londonderry, which i have. Many Unionists, the Apprentice Boys (and even some Protestant bands) use Derry themselves, mainly as the shorthand for the city and none of us ever had a problem with use of the name Derry until nationalists made such a big deal out of it.

The nationalist problem with 'London' isn't because the English messed with an Irish name, its because its the name of their enemies capital and feel that it is a mark of domination, which if was the case what made Derry so special to be picked out?? Why not Londonbelfast, Londonbangor, Londonlarne or even Londondublin the capital of the island?? Because they weren't built by the London companies, who didn't even have permit in counties Antrim and Down during the Plantation.

The nationalists also don't have a problem with the name of their county's being messed around by the English. I've heard no complaints and calls to revert County Londonderry back to County Coleraine. I've also never heard any calls from nationalists from the Barony of Loughinsholin (present day Magherafelt District) for them to be reincorpoated back into County Tyrone which is where it belonged before the English granted it to the then new County Londonderry.

Also don't forget that in your search results, it will contain words that include that word, so places such as Ballinderry and Edenderry etc. will be added into the results meaning you can't use it as a tool to determine whats more popular.

Like i said, if James I had called it New Derry the nationalists wouldn't have given a toss.

Finally you say Londonderry isn't used much outside of Northern Ireland?? What proof do you have? Other than anything coming out of the Republic of Ireland i've heard Londonderry used more by media outside of Northern Ireland than Derry, i've even heard CBS News in America saying Londonderry instead of Derry.

Mabuska (talk) 19:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes but a settlement did exist before the plantations, Derry, and then the London companies rebuilt it, not for the native Irish but English and Scottish planters. And yes, nationalists do not like the English messing with their names, and "London" being in the name is a mark of dominance, which the Irish don't like. I can't understand why the King did this, because now it has become a big dispute, and to give an example, the allies helped rebuild West Berlin after WW2, but Berlin wasn't renamed.

Of course they would never bring up a vote in Derry to decide the name of the city, because if the majority had their way, it would be Derry. FF3000 (talk) 22:06, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Who said a settlement didn't exist before hand? I never did. The simple fact you can't understand the simple notion of adding a prefix to a settlements name in respect and honour to the The Honourable The Irish Society (the London companies) who rebuilt the entire settlement means there is no point in debating this matter. I must also add Londonderry was built from scratch as the Walled City was built on a new location on the left side of the River Foyle whereas the Irish destroyed original Derry was situated on the right side of the River Foyle. You could easily claim it was an entirely new settlement thats only link to the old Derry was its proximity and addition of Derry to its name. Berlin wasn't entirely destroyed and rebuilt on an new location by a corporation based in one city.

If the issue of chaging names was the reason which you state then why is their no complaints from nationalists over Draperstown in County Lononderry? It was originally known as either Cross of Ballinascreen, Moyheeland, or Burboy, however was named after the Drapers Company when they took over it and built a new settlement. It is regulary referred to and known as Ballinascreen to locals anyways yet they haven't complained about the fact its officially known as Draperstown, which like Londonderry was only named such in recognition of its builders. An Dun Mor (Dunmore) was renamed Randalstown after the Marquis of Antrim, Randal MacDonell, and there have been no complaints about that either from the now nationalist majority village. In fact the Irish for it now is Baile Raghnail which means Randals Town. No doubt there are many other such settlements in Ireland. So that blows the notion of Irish disliking English altered names out of the water.

Finally don't assume that all Irish think like you do. In fact don't assume to know what the Irish like and don't like, you are one person with your own opinions which may or may not have support with others. Not all Irish are nationalist/republicans. Though most don't like to admit it, Unionists are just as Irish as nationalists. I'm an Atheist, inclined towards pro-Union, support the usage of the name Londonderry but i consider myself Irish. Your statement 'which the Irish don't like' is just the same as saying that everybody who considers themselves Irish feels the way you do which is wrong as i don't feel the way you do. Please refrain from such assumptions and stereotyping. Mabuska (talk) 17:45, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

But doesn't being "Irish" mean that you see yourself as a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, or in other words, a nationalist? FF3000 (talk) 18:04, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Yet another stereotype. Nope it doesn't at all. It all depends on context. You can be Irish and not a citizen of the Republic of Ireland or a nationalist. Irish means someone from Ireland, which is the name of this island, so everyone on it is geographically Irish regardless of political affiliation or relgious beliefs. And not all citizens of the Republic of Ireland are nationalist, there is still a small minority of Unionists who haven't emigrated as well as people who don't care about unionism or nationalism. Mabuska (talk) 21:53, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

There aren't any unionists living here. There are British citizens here, I know, but no actual "unionists". FF3000 · talk 11:38, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Another bold statement that doesn't cut ice. The Orange Order still exists in 9 republic counties and their members would consider themselves unionists, in fact the Orange Order by essence is a unionist organisation, and they still hold a 12th of July every year in Rossnowlagh in County Donegal. And then there is also the An Comhortas Aontachtóirí Éireannach - the Irish Unionist Alliance which is a unionist organisation based in the Republic of Ireland, and also the Reform Movement. So unionism still lives in the Republic of Ireland despite the ignorance and prejudice that has been thrown at the small minority over the years. Mabuska (talk) 21:51, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, if there are, then there must be very few, because I most certainly haven't heard of unionists living here --FF3000 · talk 23:12, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Being a looked over minority what do you expect? Also the Protestant community which has seen some bitter bigotry thrown at them even by Eamon de Velera, its not surprising most left the country and most of those remaining keep to themselves. Mabuska (talk) 19:31, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

We don't give them bitter bigotry. I know some protestants who live near me (although they aren't unionist). We treat them no differently. Eamon de Valera just hated protestants because of the bigotry than England showed towards Ireland. FF3000 · talk 19:43, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

You mightn't but others do. Graham Norton famously stated that growing up as a Protestant in the Republic of Ireland was far harder than being openly gay. Also in 2005, the Mayor of Cork invited the Orange Order to participate in Corks St. Patricks Day parade - the Orange Order had be pull out for safety reasons due to threats of violence from republicans. Then there was the whole Love Ulster in Dublin fiasco - the amount of bitter people that showed up that day to riot was disgraceful, whether or not it was right for the thing to have been even held in Dublin in the first place isn't the issue here. Also your stereotyping again - just because someone is Protestant doesn't mean that they are unionist.

Oh yeah, on your statement on Eamon de Velera - lame excuse. You state that he hates (Irish) Protestants because of Englands policies? Would he not hate the English instead? His hatred of Irish Protestants can't be put down to politics - many Irish Protestants where lynchpins in the whole Irish Independance political scene. It was a Protestant that recruited Michael Collins into the IRB. It was a Protestant who wrote 'A Nation Once Again'. Charles Parnell was also one. It was a Protestant that founded 'The Gaelic League' that quite literally saved Gaelic culture and many prominent nationalists including Eamon de Velera himself can trace themselves back to that movement. It was mostly Protestants that founded the 'Young Ireland' movement which introduced the Irish Tricolour. It was a Protestant who coined the term 'We Ourselves - Sinn Fein'. It was a Protestant who first envisaged an Irish Republic. So his hatred of Irish Protestants has to be beyond the political reasons. His statement that 'Ireland is a Catholic nation' also didn't help. Maybe he was jealous of how much the Irish Republic and Irish Republicanism owe Irish Protestantism lol. Mabuska (talk) 15:01, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

You can't be living in the past. The Protestant minority today in Ireland are just part of our society. And de Valera saying that Ireland is a Catholic nation isn't offensive. We are a Catholic nation because approx. 95% of us are Catholics. England is a Protestant nation, even though there is a Muslim and Catholic minority. Stating that we are a Catholic nation simply means that the vast majority of the population is Catholic. FF3000 · talk 18:07, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

As i've already stated above, you might say that they are part of your society but events such as the Cork St. Patricks Day parade and other things shows many other people don't accept them. And even if events happened in the past they still affect people in the future - look at how an Irish Catholic grimaces when you mention Cromwell or Internment - thats living in the past but it still is part of the national conscience.

On Eamon de Velera's speech it depends on viewpoint - was he talking about the Irish Free State or about the island of Ireland? No republican would ever use the term nation to mean only the Irish Free State (the Republic didn't exist for another decade at the time, and so all of Ireland was still part of the British Commonwealth) as to them the whole island, all 32 counties is the nation - and de Velera was a republican, and so its open to debate which he was referring to. No matter the case anyhoos, yes Roman Catholism would still be the majority, but at the time in the 1930's the majority was smaller and he was making his anti-Protestantism clear with the statement. You can defend it all you want by using the stats but to de Velera there was no religious equality, defend if you can the following religous descrimination from Eamon de Velera:

- "If I had a vote on a local body, and if there were two qualified people who had to deal with a Catholic community, and if one was a Catholic and the other was a Protestant, I would unhesitatingly vote for the Catholic"

- When Mayo County Council refused to appoint a graduate of Trinity College Dublin to a post in the county library, de Valera supported the decision on the grounds that the candidate was a Protestant and that the Catholic community, which had a 98% majority in the county, had a right to insist on a Catholic being appointed.

In effect its religious discrimination by use of democracy as the excuse. Thank god Northern Ireland and the Republic have both by on large moved on from such pathetic discrimination especially by backward bigots like Eamon de Velera and James Craig. Defending such bigots only nails your flag to their mast and thus opinions.

Mabuska (talk) 16:46, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The reason why a lot of us look up to de Valera is because he played a major role in gaining independence for Ireland. He refused the United Kingdom at first and then in the 1930s he broke the remaining links that Ireland had with Britain. If it wasn't for him we might have never gained full independence from the UK. Even if he discriminated a bit against Protestants, and wasn't exactly a perfect saint, he did a lot of work for Ireland. Even look over to America, where they look up to George Washington for getting their independence from the UK. He was no saint either, as he had black slaves on his farm (the worst possible kind of racism).

And of course we hate the likes of Cromwell. What he did still has effects on Ireland as it is today. He invaded at a time when Britain was losing its' grip on Ireland. And if it wasn't for that, we could have had a 32-county Ireland today! FF3000 · talk 15:36, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Fascinating thought this discussion is, how does it have anything to do with improving the article? Canterbury Tail talk 15:46, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Lol nice homourous touch Canterbury Tail :-) I'll respond on FootyFanatic3000's user page Mabuska (talk) 20:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I thought sticking to official names was part of the problem. Condae Londandhoire sounds fine to me. I've never heard it, but that doesn't mean is cannot or should not be used. Languages change ater all. D.de.loinsigh talk 21:57 03 March 2009 —Preceding undated comment added 21:56, 3 March 2009 (UTC).

However, Wikipedia's core tenant is verifiability. If it cannot be reliably referenced then it cannot be used. Someone doing a translation isn't reliable. Canterbury Tail talk 13:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Londaindoire is a modern translation of 'Londonderry' into Irish Gaelic, appearing from the 90's onwards. It is correctly spelled with out the 'd' of Doire (earlier spelled as Daire) being aspirated to a 'dh (ḋ in Gael Script)', this is due to a rule in compound words that the combination of 'n' + 'd' doesn't require an aspiration due to the weird sound it would produce. Theoretical you could use a hi-fin, but they don't appear often in Gaelic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.151.1 (talk) 15:28, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

"Londonderry or Derry" vs " Londonderry/Derry"

Regarding this revert I don't see how Wikipedia:IMOS#Derry_.2F_Londonderry would have discouraged my edit. "named after the city of Londonderry or Derry" could be misunderstood to mean that we're talking about two different cites, "Londonderry/Derry" is clearer. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 15:31, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

It's the part where it says try to avoid the Stroke City style. Agreed the current one is not great, it would be much better if it was something like "Londonderry, also known as Derry" as that avoids the Stroke City style and clarifys that it is one city that is also known by an informal name. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 15:47, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

OK, I guess it's "Londonderry, also known as Derry" for now. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 16:32, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

One Thing

I know this sort of thing has been gone over before but I have an issue with the wording in this article. It says when the county was created it was named after it's main city of Derry (later Londonderry). However when the county was created the city was called Londonderry by that point so this sentence is very misleading. Maybe it should be slightly reworded so it was named after its main city of Londonderry (which has subsequently been renamed back to it's orginal name of Derry). Ben W Bell 12:39, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

You are correct. The county has never been called Derry, it was created from the previous County Coleraine, which with parts of Donegal, Tyrone, and a bit of Antrim, was called County Londonderry, after the walled city. :: Keith :: 15:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

But the county shouldn't be called "Londonderry", because the city was known as "Derry" before the British took our country. London is situated in south-west England, and I don't know why they squeeze it into Derry. We in the Republic frown at anyone who ridicoulously call the place "Londonderry". It is merely a reminder of the brutality of the Ulster Plantations, when the native Irish were cruelly treated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Footyfanatic3000 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Footfanatic, you clearly do not know the history of Derry/Londonderry. The London prefix comes from the fact the CITY that was granted a Royal Charter in 1613 had been established by guilds from London. From the Derry article:

'Planters organised by London livery companies through The Honourable The Irish Society arrived in the 17th century as part of the Plantation of Ulster, and built the city of Londonderry across the Foyle from the earlier town, with walls to defend it from Irish insurgents who opposed the plantation. The aim was to settle Ulster with a population supportive of the Crown.'

135.196.157.83 (talk) 14:18, 24 January 2014 (UTC) Faust, 24/01/14

Population of County Londonderry in the 2011 UK Census

Whilst one must be cautious when one speaks about population figures for any of Northern Ireland's counties (because data are no longer collected on a county basis), a relatively reliable estimate can be made using the figures and maps provided by the Ordnance Survey and the figures from the 2011 Census freely available from NISRA.gov.uk. As an overview, many Local Government Areas' boundaries (drawn up in the 1970s) fall into line with the old county structure (eg. Limavady District Council area lies entirely within the bounds of County Londonderry). Where this is not the case, Electoral Wards prove an invaluable agent to plug the gaps (eg. Cookstown District Council is mostly in County Tyrone, but some parts of the northern rural hinterland are in County Londonderry; The Loop is one such electoral ward - The Loop is in Co. L'derry but is administered as part of Cookstown District Council area). Sometimes the electoral ward boundaries were drawn (or in other cases redrawn) in such a way that they are split by counties. In this instance one can use the Census Output Areas (or their new 2011 equivalent: the Small Area which are almost always synonomous with one another) to break up the Electoral Ward into its constituent parts (eg. the Small Area N00001949 (previously known as Census Output Area 95KK020005) is in County Londonderry, but also forms part of Atlantic Electoral Ward, which is part of Coleraine Borough Council area - parts of Atlantic Electoral Ward are in County Antrim). On the rare occassion that the borders of the Small Area/Census Output Area are not in line with the old County boundaries, I have either chosen or excluded any given area depending on where most of the Small Area lies and where most of the population of that given area live (eg. Small Area N00002018 (formerd out of the old Census Output Areas of 95JJ110001, 95JJ110003 and 95JJ110010) is split between Counties Londonderry and Antrim, but one can see on NISRA maps that about 3/4 of the land and roughly the same fraction (if not more) of the population reside on the County Londonderry side of the old county boundary). Thus insofar as possible I have only included those statistical areas that lie within the County Boundaries in order to arrive at the figure of 247,132. I must stress that this is only an approximate figure as certain Small Areas have been included in the 247,132 figure which have small amounts of territory outside of the county, and some Small Areas which have portions of themselves within County Londonderry have been excluded because most of the Small Area lies in another County. In all, these factors may well even each other out. Nonetheless, the actual figure could be out by a hundred or so. If anyone has any queries or suggestions please get in contact. Cuirfear fáilte roimh chomhfhreagras i nGaeilge. Correspondance in Irish is welcomed.

• County Londonderry:
• Londonderry (city) 107877
• Limavady 33536
• Magherafelt 45038
• Coleraine 59067 except the County Antrim portions thereof (5786)
  • Royal Portrush -2032
  • Atlantic: only
    • N00001948 (previously 95JJ020001) -216
    • N00001950 (previously 95JJ020003) -230
    • N00001955 (previously 95JJ020009) -285
  • Dunluce -1990 in County Antrim except the County Londonderry portion thereof
    • N00002001 (previously 95JJ090001) 376
  • Hopefield -3770 in County Antrim except the County Londonderry portion thereof
    • N00002014 (previously 95JJ110002 & 95JJ110009) 974
    • N00002018 (previously 95JJ110001, 95JJ110003 & 95JJ110010) 1,387
• Cookstown: (excluding the County Tyrone portions thereof) only 7400
  • Coagh
    • N00002095 (previously 95KK020002) 485
  • Lissan
    • N00002121 (previously 95KK070002) 454
    • N00002122 (previously 95KK070003) 523
    • N00002124 (previously 95KK070005) 346
  • Moneymore 2646
  • The Loop 2946

TOTAL: 247132 Co. Londonderry, NI, UK D.de.loinsigh (talk) 17:08, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source that has published this figure? If not I would think that trying to combine the different areas to try and arrive at a population figure for Co. Londonderry would be a violation of WP:SYNTHESIS or at the very lest the more broader WP:ORIGINAL. -- Jamie ^u_t 17:51, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Such original research has been done before in different things, but I do agree that we would need a reliable source, or any credible source that states this figure. The however is that council boundaries and the wards that they consist of are not based on county basis but on the amount of people in an area so that each ward is divided roughly into the same amount of people. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:27, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Poll on renaming "Derry" and "County Londonderry"

• Poll: Talk:Derry#Poll on renaming "Derry" and "County Londonderry" —Italay90 (talk) 09:16, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

• MAY 2015 - RfC on renaming the County Londonderry and Derry articles to County Derry/Londonderry and Derry/Londonderry respectively —Italay90 (talk) 10:29, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Irish language

Surely there should be a section on the efforts to revive the Irish language in the Slaughtneil/Carntogher district? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Culloty82 (talk • contribs) 17:15, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

It's already covered at Gaeltacht#County_Londonderry. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:51, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2017

(London)Derry

}} 89.100.132.124 (talk) 18:32, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

"historical" and time frames

I think we should be more specific with time frames on this in the introduction. In any Irish context, "historical" can mean just about anything and is far too vague. This entity only existed from 1631 until 1972 specifically. While most of it derives from landscape stolen from the Ó Catháin (as County Coleraine) some of it had been part of County Tyrone for a time and then was artificially tacked on, so it isn't really 100% analogous to a prior existing native kingdom as some counties were. Claíomh Solais (talk) 15:55, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

The territory subjected to the plantation was forfeited by Irish earls who broke the terms of the Surrender and Regrant deals they agreed on at the end of Tyrone's rebellion, thus the territory (including that of some of my ancestors) was not "stolen". No more than the Cenel nEoghain "stole" it from the Airgialla and Ulaid, or their sept Ó Catháin who "stole" their territory from the Ciannachta Glenn Geimin and Fir na Craibhe.

Now on topic. The county is a historic county in that it no longer exists for official administrative purposes, but that is all. It is used for quite a lot of other things however meaning it is still present somewhat. Other than that I don't see what point you are making or what the county's territorial extent has to do with the term historic? Mabuska ^(talk) 17:00, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

And just to put it out there, the portion of Tyrone made part of Londonderry was part of the Clandeboye O'Neills territory not the main Tyrone branch. Prior to the shiring if western Ulster it had the alias Brian Carrach's Country and was where the Clandeboyes originated from. Prior to the Cenel nEoghain conquest it belonged to the Ui Thuirti before being "artifically tacked on" to Tir Eoghain. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:35, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 10 May 2018

It is county Derry, not county Londonderry. This page has caused untold controversy in this country in the last couple of days, causing untold violence and suffering to those in support of the county being called by its real name, so change it to put an end to the suffering of nationalists and unionists alike. Please. Mynamejeffe (talk) 16:56, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see the notices at the top of this talk page. Thank you. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 17:18, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Load of bullcrap. As someone from the county I must ask... what violence and suffering in the last few days? Where's the evidence of it? Also if you can prove there was a County Derry before the creation of County Londonderry then maybe you'd have a case for "real name" but wait nope impossible. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:26, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, we are calling the article by its real name, it’s the people who wish to refer to it as County Derry who are making up names. I suggest you read the article on how the county was named and created. Canterbury Tail talk 23:56, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2019

Offically the county itself is called Derry. The city is called London Derry. It is very important that this misinformation is changed as if I search up the county Derry, the first thing that google shows me is "County LondonDerry" which is incorrect, this adds to a lot of confusion. This is like calling Kerry(the county) Dingle(as in the large town in it), or saying that the state of Pennsylvania is called Philadelphia. The Derry-LondonDerry debate has been going on for ages and misinformation like this is just not needed. It just doesn't make any sense. Even looking at maps of Ireland and looking at the 32 counties, you can see that the county is Derry. Here are some maps for example: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a0/e8/7a/a0e87ab26fda1c4d3f5c70f6a5e35e54.jpg

                                      https://i2-prod.rsvplive.ie/news/irish-news/article11411777.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/map-ireland.jpg
                                      https://i.pinimg.com/236x/6a/26/0a/6a260ad3de45c2edbf1d8f6e9d39aa18--galway-corks.jpg?b=t

Now we can also see from articles that the county itself is called Derry, but the debate is over the name of the city e.g is the city Derry or LondonDerry Here is one of the articles: https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/why-is-derry-also-called-londonderry The first sentence you'll see is "t is a dispute almost as old as that between Ireland and England. What is the proper name for the city that sits on the banks of the River Foyle?" Now as you can see that says CITY, the CITY may be called London Derry But the COUNTY is Derry, so it should say County DERRY not londonderry. We also know that in 1613 when Derry was invaded that the charter said "that the said city or town of Derry, forever hereafter be and shall be named and called the city of Londonderry." Again here when the name was officially changed, only the City of Derry was changed to London Derry, but it is still very much Derry.

Now that we've established that the COUNTY is called DERRY, we should move onto the CITY. Now moving onto the city of Derry, which in 2015 was voted to be renamed Derry, therefore London Derry is no more Sources: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/council-votes-to-rename-londonderry-as-derry-1.2296065 https://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0724/716882-derry/

In conclusion, this information is very confusing and very misleading and it should be changed. Fixingthis111 (talk) 20:56, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

You are unfortunately woefully misinformed here. County Londonderry is the official name of the county, and has been since it's formation. It was formed from County Coleraine. Even the article above on Irish Central that you reference states this. Please read the article for more information and accurate references on this matter. And what other countries outside the UK call the county is irrelevant. Thanks. Canterbury Tail talk 21:16, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 December 2019

They both should be Derry/Londonderry CookieCrumbleYummy (talk) 20:39, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Technically both names are correct and it should be Derry/Londonderry as In GAA they play as County Derry — Preceding unsigned comment added by CookieCrumbleYummy (talk • contribs) 20:40, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. Moreover, see the Big Important Notice in Red at the top of the page. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 22:59, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2020

County Londonderry to County Derry KingMattVII (talk) 20:05, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Please read the article and refer to the talk page header regarding the editor consensus reached about the naming of this article. Don Spencer^{talk-to-me⛅} 20:13, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Origin of the name

Should the intro not explain the origin of the county's name? It would bring it in line with all the other 'Northern' counties. For example, at County Antrim it says "(named after its county town, Antrim)" and at County Tyrone it says "from Irish Tír Eoghain meaning "land of Eoghan". For this one we could just say "(named after the city of Derry or Londonderry)" / "(named after the city of Londonderry or Derry)". Thoughts? ~Asarlaí 23:01, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

So as it stands it says Londonderry, Derry named after Londonderry, Derry, if you are going into the origin of the name it came from the Gaelic name for a place of Oak trees Doire. Also Antrim is an exception in that it is a "newer" county established after English became the dominant language.Mo ainm~Talk 23:11, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

County Londonderry was the last county in Ulster to be created, so how does that arguement work? Mabuska ^(talk) 10:32, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

We had a discussion about this a while ago (I think it was on WP:Ireland). My preferance was to hav the Irish name in the lede of each county article (i.e. Contae Aontroma). Someone suggestd that we use derive insted (i.e. from Irish Aontroim meaning "solitary dwelling"). However, that would be inaccurat becaus the whole county wasn't named after a "solitary dwelling". So, the final agreement was to say it was named after the town. The same also applied to County Armagh (named after the town of Armagh), County Down (named after the town of Downpatrick) and County Derry/Londonderry (named after the city). ~Asarlaí 23:38, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

After a hefty discussion we agreed to use derive tags for Northern Ireland as Irish has no official status unlike in the republic. Places in the republic have official Irish names and these are used in the ledes. Counties like Londonderry, Antrim, Down etc. don't derive directly from Irish as they are named after settlements. It is these settlements that derive from Irish (or partially) - so we state where they get there name from, i.e. County Antrim named after Antrim town. County Tyrone however derives directly from Irish and not a settlement so we use the Irish derive tag. As Asarlai said, it would be inaccurate to use an Irish derive tag for County Antrim or similar as that is not where its name derives from.

I think the "named after" was left out of this article due to the issues here over Londonderry/Derry. I think it would only be right and accurate for this article to be a sole exception to the IMoS. For the purposes of explaining the name of the county in the lede, it should be permitted to say "named after the city of Londonderry" as to just say Derry would e inaccurate as the reader will think... "then why isn't it called County Derry".Mabuska ^(talk) 10:30, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Mo ainm has gone ahead and changed it to "named after the city of Derry" without discussion. Agree with Mabuska that it's going to be very confusing for readers to read that County Londonderry is named after a city that apparently isn't called Londonderry. If you don't want to pipelink Londonderry to Derry, it should at least say "named after the city of Londonderry, commonly known as Derry" or something similar. JonChapple^Talk 10:44, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I did a bold change. Mo ainm or someone will probably revert it, but i really do think this is a situation where we have a good reason to ignore the "no strokes" rule. Stating "Londonderry or Derry" makes it sound like its origin isn't certain and that Londonderry and Derry are two different places. Derry is misleading as how does Londonderry derive from just Derry. As just stating Londonderry for the city will send nationalist editors into a mighty tizz, as the IMoS must be upheld at all costs to enforce the myth - stating Londonderry/Derry might be the best solution. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:57, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

If you wan't to change the IMOS take it to the talk page of the MOS. I removed both LDerry and Derry but was reverted as it isn't factually correct as the origin of the name is form the Irish language. Mo ainm~Talk 11:25, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Editors should read the notices at the top of this article. This article is also subject to a 1 Revert Rule and should be observed. --Domer48_'fenian' 12:06, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

If it is to have an explanation - and I have no view as to whether it needs one - then it should have a sensible one. It cannot be named "after" the city if the city and the county were created at the same time. Antrim, Armagh and Down pre-dated their associated counties by hundreds of years. The derivation of the name "Londonderry" is "London" - after the city of London - and "Doire" (as Mo ainm says) - after the old monastic settlement. Or possibly "Derry" after the angllicised name of that settlement. Scolaire (talk) 12:52, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

How about County Londonderry or County Derry (named after the city of the same name)...? ~Asarlaí 13:57, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I'd support it. It's a good compromise. JonChapple^Talk 14:41, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Disagree per WP:EASTEREGG, if your linking to Derry then say Derry not hide it, as I stated at the start I don't think it adds anything to the sentence as as it is not wholly correct as the name originates from the Gaelic name Doire. Mo ainm~Talk 14:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I've explained this. Co. Londonderry derives from Londonderry which derives from Doire. Just as Boston, Massachussetts derives from Boston, Lincolnshire which in turn derives from an earlier settlement called St Botolph's Town. Boston, MA isn't named after St Botolph's town, it's named after the English Boston. Co Londonderry isn't named for Doire, but for the town named for Doire. JonChapple^Talk 14:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

So you are now admitting that the origin of the name is Doire? And I'm not understanding your logic on the Boston analogy. Mo ainm~Talk 15:09, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I've never denied that the origin of the English (London)derry is from Doire, that's a well-established fact. The name of the city was created by Anglicising Doire. The name of the county was created from that Anglicisation. It's named after something that's named after something else; just like the Boston > Boston > St Botolph example. Co. (London)derry > the town of (London)derry > Doire. JonChapple^Talk 15:25, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

How is Boston derived from St Botolph? Mo ainm~Talk 15:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

http://www.boston.gov.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=256&Itemid=3530 JonChapple^Talk 15:32, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) My definition of derived must be different to that blog writer. So what is your proposal Jon? Mo ainm~Talk 15:41, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, just because it's derived from Old English and not Irish Gaelic doesn't make it any less derived. Unless you're referring to the city's uncertain origins, in which case, it's true that no one really knows whether Botolph did ever establish a monastery there but we do know the name Boston comes from his in some way. My proposal is to go along with what Asarlai is suggesting, below. JonChapple^Talk 15:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

So you want to link it to the Derry article but you don't want it to display Derry you wan't to hide it away in an Easter Egg. Mo ainm~Talk 16:00, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, not ideally. I'd rather pipelink Londonderry to Derry, seeing as how the county article is at Co Londonderry, but it'll only all kick off. Unfortunately this is a necessity due to some people's hard-headedness. JonChapple^Talk 16:03, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Nothing to do with hard-headedness, Wikipedia works on the concept of consensus and the consensus that we have is that it is Derry for the City and L/Derry for the county, you can take it up with the IMOS and try to change the consensus if you wish. Also I'm sure we have a lot of editors who think this article should also be called Co. Derry. Mo ainm~Talk 16:09, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I understand the principle consensus thanks, and I'm aware of the MOS, but I think we should make an exception for this particular sense. Manuals of style are there as a guide, but aren't unshakeable rules and there should be an element of common sense applied too. IMO, this is one of those occasions when it would be OK to do something different, owing the fact we're trying to say the city's named after the county and the name's don't match! However, it'll never happen, as I've said, due to stubbornness from a certain group, so I'm supporting Asarlai's proposal below, which will hopefully be a compromise reached by consensus. JonChapple^Talk 16:16, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I know the feeling, the stubbornness of certain groups is one of the annoying things about Wikipedia. Mo ainm~Talk 16:22, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Let's not get off-topic here. In my opinion, as I'v said before, it's inaccurat (but not untrue) to say that the county's name comes from doire. We all know that the county was named after the settlement, and that the settlement was named after an oak grove (doire). However, that doesn't mean that the whole county (which is over 800 sq mi) was named after an oak grove. The county was named after its main town - just like counties Donegal, Antrim, Armagh and Down. Therfore, I think the best solution is to write County Londonderry or County Derry (named after the city of the same name). ~Asarlaí 15:36, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

See WP:EASTEREGG and also WP:OR of course it is possible it was named after an oak grove and of course it is possible it was named after the main town/city, a source would be nice anyone got one to say that it is named after the main town? Mo ainm~Talk 15:45, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I think it's much more likely that a whole county would be named after its main town, rather than a wee oak grove somwher near the mouth of the Foyle. It shouldn't even need a source, but here's one anyway. ~Asarlaí 16:14, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

So the suggestion is to ignore the consensus reached at Irish manual of style, among editors or put another way "make an exception" to suite an editors personal point of view using original research to do it. To lend support to this idea, using personal attacks against editors who disagree and failing to assume good faith. I can't see how an editor could hope to float this boat, but unless we see supporting sources it will not get far.--Domer48_'fenian' 17:46, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

You'v totally lost me ther Domer... What consensus is being ignored? What's this "exception" to the IMOS? What's the point-of-view/original research being proposed and who is proposing it? Who has made personal attacks, and against whom? Who is your post directd at? ~Asarlaí 17:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm lost too. I can't see any OR or POV, just stating the facts as they are. Nor do I see any personal attacks. JonChapple^Talk 17:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Now why should we ignore the consensus and change IMOS. If that s what is wanted here then take it to the IMOS talk page and try it. The facts as they are, are that the place was originally called Doire and the name Derry was derived from it then the big bad English made a claim to it and changed the name. It is also still known as Co. Derry.Mo ainm~Talk 18:10, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how it fails WP:EASTEREGG or WP:OR. How is it original research to state the obvious that the county of Londonderry is named after the city just like most counties are named after their county town or a promiment place? Also how is Asarlai's idea an easter egg link? It makes it clear its on about a place of the same name, its not taking the reader to an entirely different article thats only related to a very small degree from what the link implies i.e. jet engines <- that is an easter egg link.

No-one is saying that the IMoS should be changed or altered and to try to claim that is rediculous. A suggestion was made that this might be the only instance plausible where it'd be right to ignore it on grounds of accuracy for one tiny sentence.

Domer's claims i find also very wierd as if he hasn't bothered trying to read and understand the context of the above suggestion in regards to the IMoS. Hardly PoV pushing to ensure one bit of historical accuracy especially when the IMoS would only lead to confusion "Londonderry, named after the city of Derry" - yes makes sense, wouldn't that make an ignorant reader think the county should be called Derry then? We could do it a different way: "named after the city of Londonderry (Derry)". That way it looks like it should be Derry and only has Derry highlighted. Or we could do it the way i did it orignally when i was altering the ledes of county articles to match the consensus in regards to place name origins - just leave it out for County Londonderry. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:14, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

The county is called Derry and there are hundreds of sources to back it up the way there are hundreds of sources for LDerry so we use the IMOS to prevent edit wars. Mo ainm~Talk 18:22, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

What does this have to do with anything? No one's trying to change the name of any articles. See also the box at the top of the IMoS page (use common sense) and WP:IGNORE. JonChapple^Talk 18:16, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Because you are using one POV on the name of the county LDerry when it could also be called Derry. Mo ainm~Talk 18:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Where? JonChapple^Talk 18:33, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, you're the one POV-pushing. "The county is called Derry..." JonChapple^Talk 18:35, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

I am not pushing any POV, I am going with consensus on the IMOS. The county is called Derry but it is also called LDerry. I would ask you to strike that personal attack please. Mo ainm~Talk 18:39, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)To prevent POV pushers consensus was reached to use LDerry for county and Derry for city, this article is named using one of those POV's. And you wish to ignore this consensus to use the POV of LDerry for the city. Mo ainm~Talk 18:37, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Just kick this to back to WP:IMOS, is editors want to change the consensus reached there. --Domer48_'fenian' 20:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Same old tricks eh? Try to make it sound like its all about tying to change the IMoS or rename the article to deflect the issue away fom what its actually about. Maybe trying to provide a solution rather than trying to make this out to something it isn't would be better than the same old typical tactics. Also is the IMoS only for when using LDerry or Londonderry Mo ainm? It does state to use common sense and common sense here would dictate that Londonderry should be permissable when highlighting the origin of the county's name (the city). Or as i said which you all typically ignored trying to deflect the issue and accusing each other of PoV - leave it out altogether as i originally did before Asarlai raised the issue!

@ Scolaire - just because both are first found mentioned in the same charter, doesn't mean that the city isn't the inspiration for the county name. After all County Derry never existed beforehand and King James had to get the name for the county from somewhere. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:48, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

• Compromise solution I have copied this compromise from IMOS by Valenciano, what do editors feel? "...both variants of the county's name come from its county town, which is alternatively called Derry or Londonderry." Mo ainm~Talk 09:35, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't providing a possible solution feel better? I can agree to that with slight alterations:

"...both variants of the county's name are named after the city, which is alternately called Londonderry or Derry."

Why the omission of the county town? Because Coleraine was County Londonderry's county town. Secondly as we are mentioning County Londonderry first before County Derry, shouldn't we put the city names in the same order for a form of sentence cohesion? Mabuska ^(talk) 13:43, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 17:18, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I’d settle on a slash Paolorausch (talk) 01:09, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 28 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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County Londonderry → County Derry – I realise that some people may be reluctant to re-open this issue, last discussed in 2004. However the current guideline where we refer to the city as Derry and the county as Londonderry, far from being a reasonable compromise, looks more like a judgement of Solomon. As the article notes, Londonderry no longer exists as a county, it may be that the most important body which still recognises this county is the Derry GAA (Gaelic Athletic Association, referring to the county not the city). In the past the justification might have been that the city had a Catholic majority and the county had a Protestant majority, but this is no longer the case. I am not proposing to change the current guideline where we respect organisation's decisions about which name to use. PatGallacher (talk) 13:31, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

See the style guide for The Guardian and The Observer, important British newspapers. It used to have the same guideline as Wikipedia currently has, but a few years ago it changed it so that the county and the city are both Derry. [5] PatGallacher (talk) 13:44, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

• Yes WP:DERRY says that the London prefix is used for the county so this would require wide discussion with Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration notified. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:58, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose this is one of the best and most durable compromises we have on here. Besides that, the county officially remains Londonderry. I'm not sure why the style guide of one Manchester newspaper has any more weight than other sources. The BBC seems to do as Wikipedia does, referring to the city as Derry but the county as Londonderry (here, 3 weeks ago.) One of the largest local newspapers remains the Londonderry Sentinel. The other local newspaper, the Derry Journal continues to refer to the county as Londonderry (news story this week.) For me, local sources like that carry more weight than a Manchester-based newspaper. I don't see any reason to revisit this. Valenciano (talk) 18:03, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

• There is also the County Derry Post, published by Iconic Newspapers. PatGallacher (talk) 20:34, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

There is. But the fact that even a nationalist-leaning newspaper like the Derry Journal refers to the county as Londonderry shows that there hasn't been a clear cut move to County Derry. The current compromise works fine. Valenciano (talk) 17:59, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Also the the Ordnance Survey (zoom out) appears to use "Londonderry" for both (as does Britannica)[6][7]. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:05, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. Given the long history of discussions surrounding the naming of this article, the contentious nature of the topic, and the explicit naming guideline located at WP:DERRY, I don't think that a standard RM discussion is the appropriate way to go about moving this article. I suggest that if editors are really serious about wanting this article moved, then they should start a RfC at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles about changing the official guideline. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:08, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Rreagan007, also note that Britannica uses "Londonderry". Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:19, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

  Although EB (and Geographic Names) might not have been published after newspaper style changes per NAMECHANGES (we probably don't know) there doesn't appear to be sufficient evidence of a common name change or that the longstanding compromise should be broken. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:37, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. U.S. Board of Geographic Names, recommended by WP:WIAN, gives "Country Londonderry" and "Derry." The nominator argues that a move is required because a name change occurred recently. That makes it all about which name is the most up-to-date. The encyclopedias and the mapmakers get the names they use from BGN. 3K008P9 (talk) 15:54, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

The British Ordnance Survey does not get its names from the US Board of Geographic Names. "The Ordnance Survey has always assumed responsibility for deciding what place names are to appear on its maps [my emphasis] and how they should be spelt. ... there is no national body in the United Kingdom responsible for the naming and spelling of places which appear on official maps or other documents." Here at the OS website. It is rather sweeping to state without qualification that "encyclopedias and mapmakers" follow the BGN. 85.238.91.38 (talk) 05:07, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

• OK, I've notified the collaboration and MOS per Rreagan007's comment but I agree a RFC should be used but I can't see this request being successful. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:57, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

  There was also a RFC at Talk:Derry/Archive 7#RfC: Renaming the Derry and County Londonderry articles in 2015. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:33, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. This has been round the houses so many times. At this point, "Assume Good Faith" be damned, it's just shitstirring. If it were up to me, any editor who tries to overturn The Compromise would be instantly and permanently banned. --Nicknack009 (talk) 19:15, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose, nothing new. And there was never a County Derry, historic or otherwise. Doire the Irish settlement yes, the county was a settler creation, hence the London-, whatever some might prefer. So this compromise makes sense, is historically respectful, and the ceremonial county was never changed from Londonderry, even if with little function now. SeoR (talk) 20:12, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose As per above Fob.schools (talk) 20:16, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose as per WP:DERRY. If there is a change needed, the discussion should be around the guideline first. It would then filter down to this article. ~ Ablaze (talk) 07:13, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. The current status quo is by far the best place to stay. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:16, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. The county may not be used as a governmental entity any longer, but it still exists as a geographic one. It's still the address location of everywhere inside it, still used by the post office and still a geographical locator. The geographical references to the places within it hasn't changed to the governmental districts from an addressing perspective. And anyway, if it were to be totally discontinued, why would we suddenly change it to a name it never was? Canterbury Tail talk 13:23, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 4 August 2021

2A00:23C8:6F86:300:F942:1B30:194F:AE36 (talk) 17:53, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

No county in Ireland is called County Londonderry

 Not done: See discussion above ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:08, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

It's actually called derry

51.171.64.205 (talk) 03:41, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — IVORK _Talk 05:40, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 September 2021

Remeove the term " LondonDerry"

Derry/Londonderry is used to name the town of Derry/Londonderry.

Londonderry is not used to cover the county as a whole which is what this page represents. The County is Derry but the town is called Derry or Londonderry depending on your background.

Regards Pádraic Padraic15 (talk) 06:28, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

For god's sake, let it go. WP:DERRY. Virtually the entire talk page is this request, over and over and over, being refused, over and over and over.

There has never been a county officially called Derry. The town was originally called Derry and was later renamed Londonderry. The county was founded as Londonderry, having formerly been called County Coleraine. --Nicknack009 (talk) 07:00, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Indeed. Though clearly County Londonderry is far larger than that of Coleraine as it included parts of other counties. I'm more surprised that for requests like this one that they didn't bother to read the article first of all it would have refuted their view and need to post this request. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:02, 3 September 2021 (UTC)