Talk:Counsel General for Wales

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Counsel General for Wales Discussion. Any law related templates please place here or create a Contemporary Welsh Law stub template.

The appointment of the Counsel General for Wales

If I am not here to input the name of the Counsel General for Wales, it would be very important for another user to input the name and history of that appointed Counsel General. Keep this article well updated. Amlder20 13:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vaughan Gething

The table listing office-holders of the office of Counsel General includes Vaughan Gething, between July and August of 2024.

This is arguably incorrect, and relies on a press report that slightly misses the point.

Whilst there were press briefings to the effect that he would "perform the role of" Counsel General, he was not formally appointed to the post by the King, and there was no vote of the Senedd to approve the nomination (which is required by statute). Indeed, being First Minister at the time, it would have been legally impermissible for him to hold both posts simultaneously (under section 49(9) of the Government of Wales Act 2006).

Under the same section, it would also have been impermissible for any of the statutory functions of the Counsel General for Wales to be "designated" to the First Minister (or indeed any other Welsh Minister). So his position is not even comparable to that of Elizabeth Jones, who was made a "designate" but never appointed.

So it is probably more correct to state that there was a vacancy between 16th July and 7th August.

Given the process of appointment, some thought may also be given to determining the dates of appointment of the Counsels General and other Welsh Ministers. The requirement for Senedd approval is important, and it doesn't always happen as soon as a First Minister announces the nominees/appointees. 194.60.38.228 (talk) 12:19, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He was acting counsel general for that period, as he was taking its roles. This should be clearly denoted that he was not actually the full officeholder, as it is with Elisabeth Jones as only being CG Designate, I agree, but it should at least be mentioned he was occupying it's functions. Perhaps something saying that the office was empty, but with Gething taking performing its functions. Something like that. Flatthew (talk) 13:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with this is that he wasn't, as it were, "occupying its functions" - this is explicitly prohibited under section 49(9) of the Government of Wales Act 2006. We're relying on a press release here when it's not accurate.

By contrast, Elizabeth Jones was formally delegated the powers (that's what it means to become "Counsel General designate"). She was able to do so because the First Minister formally authorised it. But the point here is that you can't formally authorise that the functions should be exercisable by someone who is the First Minister, a Welsh Minister or a Deputy Welsh Minister. Vaughan Gethins was the first of those three and therefore disqualified. 194.60.38.228 (talk) 17:17, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think there is a difference between occupying functions and performing functions. If the government were saying he was performing its functions, then he was for all intents and purposes that matter carrying out its functions. If there had been a need for the CG in that time, Gething would have been the lawyer in the room, according to what the welsh government was saying. I think that should be in some way reflected. Flatthew (talk) 18:47, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But the key point here is that someone cannot “perform” or “occupy” the functions of Counsel General if they are First Minister. It is against the law. Gethins would have had no legal authority to do anything the Counsel General has statutory powers to do. 2A0A:EF40:8F2:DA01:9459:FCD0:3C1F:CC5 (talk) 22:45, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTTRUTH, back up your wording with sources, "spokesperson"?? The Standard states "Mr Gething will perform the role of Counsel General". If this is wrong, please find another source with your wording, otherwise it is WP:OR and your interpretation of law. Dank Jae 10:10, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is, regardless, what the Welsh Government had to say on that matter. I'd encourage you to dig deeper into the matter, get an FOI in or whatever. If he could not legally use those functions, but it turns out he did, that would be an issue. But that is what was said. And I don't think we're in a position here to cover it in any other way. Flatthew (talk) 12:32, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Okay so this is a little bit insane. But it appears that references to Gething serving the functions of CG were scrubbed at some point that day from the Welsh Government site. I remember seeing it in the press release, but it is not there now. And looking at other publications, it was there [1] on Nation.Cymru but is not now.[2] I am unclear on what we do with this. Flatthew (talk) 12:58, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]