Talk:Cool S/Archive 1

Archive 1

Changes following AfD discussion

Taking notes from the Articles for Deletion discussion, I've changed the page to reduce the focus on drawing instructions, add some notes about the origin and recognisability of the shape, and incorporate another reference. I also drew an alternative diagram to illustrate how to draw the shape. That's available here. I didn't want to replace the existing diagram without discussion, but leave it here for use if it's welcome.

For now I've left out the point made here that a Facebook page dedicated to this has 300k likes. I think it goes some way to documenting the widespread recognition of the symbol but feels a little petty for an encyclopedia article. Mortee (talk) 12:21, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Hey Mortee! This is a little late, but thanks for contributing your drawing! I used it as a base and made a vector version and put that in the article. JackKingsman (talk) 01:47, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

JackKingsman, terrific! Thanks for letting me know. (Looks like you did that a year ago today!) › Mortee _talk 10:28, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Possible origin

This tweet features a logo for Kinsale Crystal (established 1992) that features a Cool S in the middle. Does anyone know of an earlier established use? STUART (talk) 14:20, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't know of any earlier established uses of the "Cool S". Hopefully a reliable source can be produced which discusses the symbol's relation to that brand. –Matthew - (talk) 16:58, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

New Information

The Enkei Logo seems to be the "S" in question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JG Hitzert (talk • contribs) 04:53, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Possible original research

The claim that "Cool S" appears in the painting "The Ambassadors" is unsourced and I can find no reputable sources backing this claim. The symbol in the painting bears only a passing resemblance to the "Cool S," so if no outside sources can be found this claim should be removed from the page. SillyLyn (talk) 11:09, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

The closest thing I can find to source which supports that claim (beyond forums like Reddit and 4chan) is this article here, which seems to be on a conspiracy theory website with no clear author. In any case, the claim has been removed from the article. –Matthew - (talk) 15:22, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Agreed - "The Ambassadors" has a very extensive literature, which afaik does not mention this motif. It appears in an Oriental carpet draped over the piece of furniture. Holbein probably copied an actual rug pretty faithfully. It is a hooked S, with the ends not joining up. Johnbod (talk) 20:04, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I personally saw this in the early 1980s

I personally saw this image in the early 1980s. My earliest specific memory of it is from early 1983, when I was shown how to draw it. I don't have specific evidence of such, but I was out of high school well before the 1990s and first saw it in either elementary or middle school. My older brother reports having seen it still earlier.

Aha! The band Sacred Reich incorporates it into their logo and they were founded in 1985! Their first album (Ignorance) was released in 1987 and included it on the cover.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignorance_(album) Subjugator (talk) 20:17, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Aha! I found a video that refers to (and shows) photographic evidence of it from the 1970s, and while I've not gotten to the point where it is given, it reportedly shows evidence of it back to at least 1890. Subjugator (talk) 20:25, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Sorry. The video is on YouTube by lemmiknow and is named The Universal S. Subjugator (talk) 20:27, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

That video is excellent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQdxHi4_Pvc

—Darxus (talk) 22:14, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

Including Basquiat artwork as example

The Jean-Michel Basquiat piece "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Derelict" features the S prominently, and Fred Hoffman (art historian close to Basquiat) says this was an intentional addition to the piece (see The Art of Jean-Michel Basquiat" by Fred Hoffman). This work was produced just prior to November 1982, along with other works also featuring the S, but it is most prominent in this piece and also Hoffman explicitly tells us it was intentional. I think it would be appropriate to include this in the page, but am aware that it is a copyrighted work so there will need to be fair use declarations etc. which I don't understand how to do.Wikiditm (talk) 11:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

The appearance of the "S" in that artwork may be mentioned in the article as long as an independent and reliable source can be found to support it. Without proper sourcing, such a mention would constitute original research, which is against Wikipedia policy. —Matthew - (talk) 21:44, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for this. My source is the Fred Hoffman book, which is surely a reliable source. He writes (page 210) "while some tags were from this picture surface's earlier incarnation as a part of a window or door, other portions of graffiti imagery were made by the artist. The double "S" markings on the centerpiece resemble other marks and gestures found in Basquiat's paintings from this time, when he was transitioning from street to studio artist."Wikiditm (talk) 08:36, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I've included mention of the "S"'s appearance in the painting in the article, with the Hoffman book as a source. —Matthew - (talk) 16:14, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Should this page be renamed to "The Universal S" instead of "Cool S"?

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) Iffy★Chat -- 10:05, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

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Cool S → The Universal S – I think it should, who else agrees? Michael14375 (talk) 09:39, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Oppose. Never heard the name "Universal S" until the 2019 video essay by the same name. As far as I can tell the author came up with that name to illustrate the myriad of names it has been called. "Cool S" has plenty of historical usage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Codl (talk • contribs) 11:27, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• oppose - no evidence given which satisfies WP:TITLES. --Netoholic @ 20:32, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. What's the reason for changing this? › Mortee _talk 22:25, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. While I do think the name "Universal S" has been boosted by the referenced video essay, the name Cool S has been in use for longer, and the fact that this Wikipedia page shows up when you search for Universal S on Google is probably fine for now since it isn't hard to draw the connection from Universal S to Cool S. -Gavintantleff (talk) 15:10, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Changing the name to be literally "universal" doesn't change its universality or lack thereof; I acknowledge the same argument could be made for the current title but I'd be inclined to bow to precedent over changing it. JackKingsman (talk) 16:01, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

References

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Formatting

Is Cool S (and various alternatives) considered the title of a minor work, as it seems to be presented here? MOS:VATITLE says to use italics, not quotation marks, for titled works of art, but this doesn’t seem to fit the description there. Should the quotation marks be removed? Is there a reason for them? —96.8.24.95 (talk) 17:08, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

(same user as above) If there are no objections, I’ll be removing the extraneous formatting of the name. —151.132.206.250 (talk) 16:52, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Possible Earlier Usage

I noticed that the S in “Springfield” on this 1886 Illinois Watch Co. watch appears to be the “Cool S”. The watch is shown 25 minutes into this YouTube video.

The serial number is shown in the video as well, which dates it to 1886, predating the earliest usage currently shown on this page.

I’m not a watch expert, but trying to find another one like this on Google Images yielded many different “S”s, so I’m not sure if they were unique each time or if they just changed the “S” a lot over time.

LoyalSage (talk) 14:03, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I found identically stamped movements when searching “1885 Illinois Pocket Watch Movement Grade”. In high definition the flourishes on the “S” are more visible and it looks less like the Cool S. See this pocketwatch database site for photos

97.113.140.78 (talk) 21:08, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Los Angeles graffiti Howard Gribble 1973.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:07, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Olive Oil Jean-Michel Basquiat.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:52, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Olive Oil Jean-Michel Basquiat.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:37, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Earlier variation of the cool S

Not exactly it, but pretty close! https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ce_est_ung_tractat_de_la_noble_art_de_leguille_ascavoir_ouvraiges_de_spaigne_(1527_af) NarF snw (talk) 13:43, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

This page:

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ce_est_ung_tractat_de_la_noble_art_de_leguille_ascavoir_ouvraiges_de_spaigne..._page_11_(recto)_MET_DP355627.jpg#mw-jump-to-license NarF snw (talk) 13:45, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

WP:OR, WP:NOTFORUM. Veverve (talk) 14:12, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Mechanical Graphics (1890)

https://thesthing.com/blogs/news/1890-mechanical-graphic-frederick-newton-willson "Some claim a very close similarity whilst others claim the S is too rounded or flat. Whilst you can argue that there are certainly 6 lines to start off this particular S, we're not so convinced this specific design is closer than others we have discovered at different stages of the timeline. What is more apparent to this story, is Frederick Willson was a pioneer of graphical lettering and his expert influence was a driving force during the early 1900's. One can certainly dream up a scenario where the professor dedicated times in his lesson to teach his students how to draw 'the S' (his S) and perhaps that started off a ripple effect that tapped into the addictive nature of drawing it. But to say it was THE origin of 'The S' is a big stretch." — OttoMäkelä (talk) 12:48, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The Ambassadors - Hans Holbein the Younger - Oil on Oak (1533)

We see a well defined image of this symbol in an oil painting from 1533. | The Ambassadors (Google Arts & Culture) 24.152.210.234 (talk) 18:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

WP:OR. Veverve (talk) 19:49, 26 July 2023 (UTC)