Talk:Concrete block

On 23 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Cinder block. The result of the discussion was Moved to Concrete block.

Correct international wikilink

The german wiki article Betonwerkstein links to this article. There it´s described as every kind of concrete product with a processed surface. I really do not believe that this plaster-like stone is a cinder block (Specs (pdf)). Is there any techical term for this product or does it has to be paraphrased ? --84.166.242.48 21:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Construction Specifications Institute in the US has a list of many surface finishes for concrete block. -- Dogears 02:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

04 22 00 Concrete Unit Masonry

04 22 00.13 Concrete Unit Veneer Masonry

04 22 00.16 Surface-Bonded Concrete Unit Masonry

04 22 19 Insulated Concrete Unit Masonry

04 22 23 Architectural Concrete Unit Masonry

04 22 23.13 Exposed Aggregate Concrete Unit Masonry

04 22 23.16 Fluted Concrete Unit Masonry

04 22 23.19 Molded-Face Concrete Unit Masonry

04 22 23.23 Prefaced Concrete Unit Masonry

04 22 23.26 Sound-Absorbing Concrete Unit Masonry

04 22 23.29 Split-Face Concrete Unit Masonry

04 22 33 Interlocking Concrete Unit Masonry

Move article

How are these related to "Besser blocks?" Is Besser block a brand name for concrete blocks? Australian and UK sites seem to refer to Besser blocks a lot. Images of them look a lot like what are called either "Cinder" or "Concrete" blocks in the US.Davidresseguie (talk) 01:29, 2 November 2009 (UTC) "Besser" is the brand name of a manufacturer of the machinery that is used to manufacture CMU. www.besser.com/[reply]

Are these called "cinder blocks" in the UK currently? In the U.S., cinders were added to concrete in the time between the wars to save money on materials. Cinder blocks are too brittle and do not support as much weight as full concrete blocks. The term is still used by (older) homeowners, but you couldn't but a cinder block if you tried. Is this the same elsewhere? In U.S. architecture and construction these are specified as "CMU" and called CMU or "concrete block" on the job site. Is "CMU" used anywhere else?

Proposal: move this document to "Concrete block" and come to agreement on the first sentence, e.g.:

Concrete block, "Concrete Masonry Unit" (CMU) or "breeze block" (mistakenly called a cinder block), is a rectangular block ~~or brick~~ used in construction. -- Dogears (talk) 23:27, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think I completely agree. But it'd sure be nice if we could find a reliable external source to cite on the terminology. —Steve Summit (talk) 12:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Call them what you want but I think that cinder block is the correct term used by young and older construction workers (in the United States of America) for "lightweight concrete blocks". If you have ever picked up a real concrete block you will know without a doubt the diffrence. Real concrete blocks are way heavier than cinder blocks and I rarely see real concrete blocks anymore mabey for footings. Also lightweight blocks (aka cinder block) retain the same structural, fire and insulation properties as regular blocks. From what I have known and read lightweight blocks cost more not less to manufacture but in turn cause less medical bills. If I had to I would call a cinder block a cmu block which would become part of a unit of blocks, mortar and bar to make a CMU. Sorry I don't have references of this information it really doesn't matter to me what you call it but lightweight blocks are often made from cinders and cinder like materials. Greeneyes702 (talk) 23:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the UK, AFAIK, lightweight concrete blocks used to be made as cinder blocks but are now usually aerated concrete. "Breeze block" is a term that essentially means a cinder block but has, unfortunately, become widely used for concrete blocks in general. So, I'd amend the proposed lead to say something like:

A concrete block or Concrete Masonry Unit (CMU) (often mistakenly called a "cinder block" or, in the UK, a "breeze block"), is a rectangular block used in construction.

We should then restructure the remainder of the article with subheadings to talk about the various types of block: by material (high/low density, with the latter mentioning aerated and cinder blocks) and by shape (solid blocks, those with cavities to allow either reinforcement or insulation to be added to the wall, those with insulation already present either internally or as an external layer), etc. Casper Gutman (talk • contributions) 23:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a mistake there are breeze blocks and there are cinder blocks and they are concrete masonary units. Aerated block (i think) uses a additive the air rises out of then they cut the block and drill holes in them. However many still use molds and presses to make the shape. I would add the info on diffrent types but I do not think it a mistake to call one a cinder block which are usually lightweight made with a aggregate that is cinders or similar material instead of a regular concrete block made from rock/stone aggregate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greeneyes702 (talk • contribs) 23:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A user above stated that it was now difficult if not impossible to buy cinder block in the US. I know true breeze blocks are no longer sold in the UK (see e.g. here). Of course, they will still be encountered when working on older properties but nine times out of ten the terms are misused. I personally had an experience working for a structural engineers in the UK where a client was very unwilling to accept a design involving concrete blockwork for an external wall -- he'd mentioned to a friend that "breeze blocks" would be used, and the friend (presumably thinking he meant true breeze blocks) helpfully told him the engineers didn't know their job and breeze blocks would not be sufficiently weather-resistant. The client was most unwilling to believe the blocks to be used weren't breeze blocks -- after all, he'd been abusing the term that way forever.... Casper Gutman (talk • contributions) 01:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since breeze and cinder are terms used to describe lightweight concrete blocks they are somewhat unnecessary. I was however able to find a dealer selling breeze block but was unable to add them to my cart. one here. Where I am I can walk into most any dealer and ask for cinder block and they know I mean lightweight block 8x8x16 (length twice height). Calling them lightweight concrete block is probably the more proper saying. Greeneyes702 (talk) 02:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We don't use cinder blocks...

We do not use cinder blocks in the construction industry. We only specify concrete blocks or CMUs. I think the name 'cinder block' has hung around because it rolls off the tongue easier than concrete block. Also, a lot of older homes do have cinder block foundations. I've seen a number of them that are crumbling - so homeonwers know what to call it.

Cinder blocks and concrete blocks look very different - so they are easier to spot. A concrete block looks very dense and solid and a cinder block looks very porous and full of voids.

--Ftw 12:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add to the confusion:

"In 1917, Straub patented CinderBlox, the first concrete masonry unit (CMU)." [1]

So an early manufacturer of what they themselves describe as concrete blocks (CMUs) marketed their product with a name that sounds a lot like "cinder block." It's probably just a mess; I've heard all sorts of different products called all sorts of things.

The aggregates used in making lightweight concrete blocks are often coal cinders or something similar. This is the reason I call them cinder blocks. Greeneyes702 (talk) 23:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article is disappointing. I wanted to find out more about what cinder blocks are and how they're used in the US, esp. NJ. The Merriam-Webster definition of cinder block is "A block that is made of cement and coal cinders and that is used in building." But either M-W is way wrong, or this article is describing something completely different. The article doesn't relate to what a layperson, in the US, describes as cinder block. Why is a cinder block grey when concrete is light brown? What are blocks that are ubiquitous in NJ construction sites? Why don't we hear of "concrete blocks"? I'm a graduate engineer with long ago experience as a Civil Engineer (USAF) and I'm pretty up-to-date, Cinder blocks should be straight forward -- why isn't there a cinder block article? Tenafly11 (talk) 22:39, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

cinder or concrete -- that is the question

I'm starting to get the impression that this article is really about concrete blocks, and that its parenthetical about "mistakenly called concrete blocks" is just wrong. I'm starting to get the impression that the bricks that were once called "cinder blocks" are no more, and that what people call "cinder blocks" today are really concrete blocks. Perhaps the obsolete bricks this article calls "clinker bricks" are the ones that were once called "cinder blocks". (Note, however, that the bricks described at the clinker brick article are quite different than this article describes.)

The cinder blocks I can buy today (in the U.S.) probably do weigh about 18kg, just as this article says "concrete blocks" do. (They are, however, still quite cheap.)

I'd rework the article to say all this, but I'm just not sure. I can't find any independent information about any of this on the web. The National Concrete Masonry Association's website (linked to from this article) is useless.

—Steve Summit (talk) 03:48, 18 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, here's one halfway-decent link: http://www.madehow.com/Volume-3/Concrete-Block.html

You are right; they are concrete block, CMU, and have no "cinder" in them, at least in modern US construction. I will start the changeover. --Justanother 21:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, did the deed. I looked on Google for present-day use of cinder but did not have much luck. Is it still used? Can someone add a bit about cinder, perhaps historical? --Justanother 21:43, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure the same situation applies in the UK: breeze blocks (the same as cinder blocks) are no longer available, as their role in providing lightweight construction blocks has been filled by aerated concrete blocks. However, the term is widely used by the general public to refer to concrete blocks in general. I think it's probably useful to have cinder/breeze block redirecting here, but the lead should reflect the differences between the different types of block and the fact that the terms are often confused as many readers will arrive here by typing breeze/cinder block when they mean concrete block! I added a reference with more info on the UK situation Casper Gutman (talk • contributions) 15:05, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cinder is a term for an ash leftover from burning coal, and Cinder Block were made by a process of mixing this cinder with cement and then turning the mix into hollow-core blocks. The material behaves a bit differently than concrete blocks, but there's little to no modern testing on the material because the coal companies improved their burning techniques and cinder was no longer produced as a by-product, and cinder blocks disappeared shortly after. Best guess on the timeline for the cinder block's demise was in the 1960's. A fellow named Francis Straub patented the cinder block process in 1913. references: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1144&dat=19270814&id=0kAbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=P0oEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4206,6503480 http://masonrydesign.blogspot.com/2010/03/what-is-cinder-block-it-conjures-image.html - Perrin Ehlinger, AIA — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scupperer (talk • contribs) 15:25, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I can remember when I was a child in the UK in the 1960s my family had an extension to our house built with breeze blocks. I was told at the time they were made out of power station 'slag'. They were dark blue-grey in colour and visibly very porous. I suppose it stuck in my mind because to a child they seemed weird, and nothing like normal bricks.109.156.127.206 (talk) 18:19, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sizes?

It would be nice to have a chart of standard CMU sizes in this article. Anyone? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.149.184.142 (talk) 15:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I also believe it would be helpful to mention their modularity with brick sizes. In the US one CMU block is both the same width and depth as two bricks plus a mortar joint.

Width CMU 15 5/8 in. = (2)Brick 7 5/8 in. + (1)Mortar 3/8 in.

Depth CMU 7 5/8 in. = (2)Brick 3 5/8 in. + (1)Mortar 3/8 in.

Anyone have any insight on how this works in other countries? Ahp378 (talk) 14:04, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

History

When were they invented? And when did they come in to common usage?

--According to family lore, my great great grandfather, Luke Thomas Lowe of Bristol Tennessee held patents for a "cinder block" molding process, along with patents for other inventions. I did not want to add it to the article, but if anyone has the ability to do research, or could point me in the right direction, it would be great. Obviously this patent has long since expired, but apparently an original "mold" still exists in my great uncle's care.

76.99.57.160 01:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)Jeffrey A. Haines[reply]

patents are easy enough to search..find it then you can source it. Gjxj (talk) 19:48, 1 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

E-How has a very good article on the history of concrete blocks with timeline and names, about both solid and hollow-core blocks, which I can't link because of wikirules. Anyway, according to the article, hollow core concrete masonry units (Today known as CMU) were first patented in 1900 by Harmon Palmer, but I've heard that they were around earlier, but often custom molded and poured on site at jobs since about 1880. Palmer was just the first one bright enough to patent the idea, mass produce, and license. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scupperer (talk • contribs) 15:10, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

- Perrin Ehlinger, AIA — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scupperer (talk • contribs) 15:11, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree the article is badly in need of a history section! Seems that (though earlier construction blocks of concrete were used in Ancient Rome, then Portland cement blocks in the 19th century) the first of what we'd recognize as the standard type worked on about 1890, became mass produced just after 1900. Some other links for history: [2] [3] -- Infrogmation (talk) 17:26, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I Googled this article for the sole purpose of determining the history of CMU's, which to this point, I've only ever known as "cinder blocks." The article was informative in that it informed me of the right nomenclature, but the original reason for my visit is unresolved. I agree with Infrogmation that this article is badly in need of a history section. Fhbarfield (talk) 14:15, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removed Links to Manufacturers

This is not a billboard. Because this article is about a non-proprietary technology or product, links to product literature are not appropriate, and therefore I have removed several links to the websites of concrete block manufacturers that I found on here. If this were an article about a specific product which is uniquely produced by one company, then a link to that company's website would be appropriate. However, linking to a manufacturer of "concrete block" from a "concrete block" article is far too general. That would be no different from a cookie manufacturer linking to their webpage from the "cookie" article, it would be blatant solicitation, and would fill up the article with irrelevant information.

Pictures

I'm not sure what value the 3rd and 4th photos are adding to this article, and maybe even the 2nd. They show construction that includes CMU's, but don't really illuminate anything about how they are installed or designed. Does anyone have a picture of speed blocks being installed, or of a half complete reinforced wall clearly showing rebar? I think these would be more valuable. Steve Carlson^Talk 06:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Text from "See also"

Someone added the following to the "see also" section. It doesn't belong there and I don't have time to figure out how to fit it in better just now, so I'm removing it to this page for consideration. Anyone?

fine gravel aggregate a.k.a. screenings is a large portion of the mix design in a cmu using upwards to 75% screenings and 25% sand i would also like to give you a list of standard u.s. sizes which when ordering or measuring its width height length 8 8 16 is the standard 8 8 8 also knownas a half block 8 8 16 knock out or bondbeam is used to run your rebar through the courses they have a notch "knocked out" of the top, 8 4 16 or a half high a.k.a a 4" cut

Misleading information

The following section:-

When the rebar running vertically through a concrete block wall is anchored, as is usually the case, into the foundation or floor slab before the wall is built, it presents a potential problem in assembling the wall, since every block might need to be lowered from the rebar tops to its resting place in the wall. This problem is solved by using a style of open-ended block whose plan form resembles the letter "H", commonly known as a mortarless head joint or speed block. Speed blocks can be maneuvered between the reinforcing bars and tilted into place; the vertical spaces are then filled with concrete as with ordinary Concrete blocks.

Is totally misleading, of course rebar is anchored. What's the point otherwise? Lap joints in rebar have been around since the first reinforced concrete, are we expected to have full height vertical bars set into the foundations? .

After using this method of construction for over forty years I have never heard of let alone seen glazed modular blockwork. I think this section should be removed or the poster cite some references. Glazed brickwork - yes but (in Victorian era buildings prior to cheap ceramic tiles), but not these things. billbeee (talk) 12:32, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Casper Gutman (talk • contributions) 08:57, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

breeze blocks

"breeze blocks" were not so called because breeze is a synonym for ash. They were called breeze blocks because they were used to build breezeways.

why on sizes?

Didn't see a answer to why standard sizes/dimensions were chosen. Isn't this a fundamental question? Why are concrete blocks so thick as opposed to standard bricks? Why the need for air space in concrete blocks and not standard bricks? Etc... Rtdrury (talk) 01:05, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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2teknikl+notoxic?

Lower density blocks may use industrial wastes as an aggregate. 81.11.206.69 (talk) 11:03, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

UK CMU vs. US CMU

Based only on what I've seen on house construction type programs it seems like solid CMU's are the standard in the UK and CMU's with holes for grouting are the standard in the US.

This is the substantial difference in how the nature of the blocks used in the two regions. I'd like to see some discussion of this in the article and some discussion about what is standard in other areas. I'd also like to see some discussion of the trade offs between the solid and non-solid blocks.

I'm from the US and have never seen solid blocks used. The advantages of the blocks with holes for grouting seem overwhelming to me. The blocks with grout holes are lighter so they can be made larger which makes it faster to build a wall, the holes can be filled with re-bar and concrete quickly, which can create a wall that is much stronger than a wall built only with solid blocks and if less strength is required not all the holes need to be grouted. It is not clear to me, that for most applications solid blocks have any advantages but it would certainly be interesting to find out why solid blocks have continued to be used in some places.

In Canada, we call them...

...cinder blocks! At least, non-masons in Eastern Ontario and English speakers in Quebec do. I've never heard anyone say "masonry unit", and when people say "concrete block", they usually mean solid poured blocks (e.g. the giant ones you shut down a road with). This is of course anecdotal, but the bit in the article about this is without refs, so no difference there. 50.101.248.225 (talk) 03:36, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OED reference broken

Both the original *and* the archive link are broken. I'm not sure where to find a new one. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 20:45, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tabook unit Schoolpadi,Veliancode, Ponnani, Malappuram, Kerala Openinig.

There are 6 pictures with exactly the above caption in the article. What is Tabook? What is Schoolpadi? Kerala is India but what is "Kerala Openinig"? Very confusing and looks almost like a bad commercial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.217.122.7 (talk) 15:17, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

General quality

How about the fact that they are often used for economics and that it is inferior to a poured wall even when grouted and rebarred. B137 (talk) 22:50, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I'd like to add that in moderately wet climates, homes built from this material - whatever you call it - are damp and cold. But it's a very inexpensive building material compared with wood and prestressed reinforced concrete. It is a vastly inferior, cheap building material. Haryadoon1 (talk) 08:11, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 23 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Concrete block. Consensus seems to have developed for a move to Concrete block, with ngrams supporting the WP:COMMONNAME claim. (closed by non-admin page mover) Skarmory (talk • contribs) 03:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Concrete masonry unit → Cinder block – This has been discussed before, but not for a long time: almost everybody says "cinder blocks" or "cinderblocks." Google Ngrams confirms this. I see arguments that "concrete masonry unit" is preferred in the construction industry, but WP:COMMONNAME says that doesn't matter. Let's rename. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 21:02, 23 June 2023 (UTC) Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 21:13, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support since this is the English language Wikipedia, not the construction industry Wikipedia we should go with the commonly used name, which according to Google Ngrams is cinder block.--65.93.193.94 (talk) 00:50, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Except that the dictionary definition of cinder block [4] is a specific kind of block, and not the generic topic. --- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 04:36, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  Funny that you're citing Merriam-Webster as an authority on the "correct" way to talk about a thing. They don't want you to do that. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 03:12, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose cinderblocks are a specific type of concrete masonry unit as well as a generic term for them. Shouldn't cinderblock be used for the specific type of block that is made with cinder and fly ash? [5][6][7] -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 04:36, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Alternative use concrete block as "cinder block" has a specific technical meaning -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 04:36, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can I get "Oppose" opinions to address the WP:COMMONNAME issue please? The terminology subject matter experts use isn't automatically more "correct" than familiar usage. Wikipedia article naming rules say familiar usage is how we name articles, even if the experts find it technically incorrect.

Also, if you're going to go to the trouble of digging up all those citations, maybe take the time create an account and sign in. Discussions with a anonymous user can get a little frustrating. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 18:00, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Concrete block" is pretty frequently used, and does not suffer the technical error that "cinderblock" suffers from in the generic.

And how is it frustrating discussing this? Is it because you prefer to use PING?

There's a motion to ban IP users again, you might have seen it at WP:VPP#Request for Comment: Should editing on Wikipedia be limited to accounts only?

-- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 04:25, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I favor such a ban. I have to say, I'm curious about the fact that two anonymous users, both from Montreal, are arguing opposite sides of this issue.

Asking you again to address the WP:COMMONNAME issue. Unless you can give a good reason why we should ignore it, that policy will determine whether this rename happens. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 05:23, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it curious, it's not like Montreal is some backwater where users are thin on the ground. It's one of the centres of the software industry, with several game studios, and the traditional Canadian electronics industry, plus one of the higher education focii of Canada.

Banning IP users hasn't happened yet, it has been a perennial issue since Wikipedia was established over from Nupedia.

See Necrothesp per COMMONALITY; also you never checked the primacy of concrete block, for which it is the most common term in use for decades, per your own favoured [8] Google ngrams.

There's also the conflation of results in you ngrams for the specific technical term and the generic term, which doesn't distinguish, thus doesn't actually show, that cinderblock means CMU and not block made with cinders in its aggregated usage stats.

-- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 04:03, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I know Montreal isn't a backwater -- I have family there. But there are 200 thousand cities in the English-speaking world. When you have two anonymous editors, who both work on similar things on Wikipedia, both live in the same city, and both arguing on the same topic, my Weird Coincidence alarm tends to go off. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 21:08, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Concrete block. The current title is weird, but there are various names for this item (in Britain we would call it a concrete block or a breeze block, not generally a cinder block). But concrete block is universal. WP:ENGVAR and WP:COMMONALITY. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:05, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OK, a little research has won me over to the Concrete block camp. Google Ngrams Confirms that "concrete block" is the dominant usage.

I want to explain why it took me a while to come around. This will document the edits I plan to make. I came to this article because I kept seeing "cinder block house" or "cinder block building". I don't recall ever seeing "concrete block building" or "concrete block house".

But that's subjective, so we need to look at the Ngrams for ... building and ... house. These show that "concrete block ..." was dominant -- 30 years ago. Nowadays "cinderblock ..." or "cinder block ..." is the dominant usage. Of course, that's technically incorrect, since cinder blocks are mostly not preferred as a structural material. But usage matters too, and we need to mention that in the text of the article.

ATTENTION ADMINISTRATOR. We seem to have a consensus for a move to Concrete block, not, as I originally proposed Cinder block. Isaac Rabinovitch (talk) 20:56, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.