Talk:Cliff Thorburn/Archive 1

Archive 1

Only player from outside British Isles to win tournament?

Hi, What about Ken Doherty in 1997? Ireland is part of the British Isles.

Televised first, not true first?

Wasn't Thorburn the first player to make a televised 147 break? I'm sure plenty of other players had made maximum breaks before that in the World Championship — Thorburn's distinction was to do it before the TV cameras. Can anybody confirm or deny? R Lowry 09:06, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes he was the first in World Championship play Cliff ran the first perfect 147 break in World Championship play. Steve Davis ran a televised 147, but not in World Championships.

F Kirk, Toronto

Well, I guess we can call that a consensus -- I've updated the article. R Lowry 13:47, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Can sombody tell me who made a 147 in the World Championship before Thorburn? I don't think there were any. I'll be correcting this shortly unless someone says different. Ian Cheese 19:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

John Spencer made the first maximum in competition in 1979. Davis made the televised max in 1982. Thorburn made the first championship max in '83. 88.104.4.129 19:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Cliff's book

His book might make a good source for non-controversial details. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 00:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Family / Not

I'm a Thorburn and my hometown is in Namibia, Windhoek. Since we are just a handful of Thorburn's over the world and every Thorburn i know are connected with eachother, he and i might be connected as well. I'm trying to make contact with him since 2005 and still no success.

Any help please????????

Pool/snooker runs in the Thorburn blood, that's almost all we do except for working.

Regards Schantell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.44.157.115 (talk) 09:34, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

His website is shown as a link at the bottom of the main entry and he can be contacted through that site. --213.202.163.72 (talk) 21:23, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Needs update

Third para from end - Alex Higgins now dead —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spanishroomscrumpy (talk • contribs) 15:59, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Professional titles

Hi all. I am currently in discussion with a user if we can add certain professional titles to this article that can only be found on the following source, Cliff Thorburn's official website, in particular this link: [1].

I myself added these in the past using this source, but I'm concerned it might not be a reliable source as I haven't been able to corroborate them with any other and I removed them. Another editor is now adding them back on, and to prevent any conflict I would like to see if anyone else has an opinion as to whether these titles should be included and if I'm misguided about this source's reliability. I just want to make clear that I have no objections to their inclusion either way. Andygray110 (talk) 00:01, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Thorburn's website would fall under WP:SELFPUBLISH, and would generally be reliable for non-controversial information pertaining to him. However, the purpose of his website is to promote his professional interests so caution should be exercised in accordance with WP:ABOUTSELF. Basically, the way I would approach this is if the tournament has been established as independently notable by other sources (essentially if we could create an article about it here on Wikipedia) then Thorburn's site is probably reliable for the results, unless of course we have a good reason to believe they are inaccurate. Betty Logan (talk) 08:32, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

AndyGray110 removed a number of non-ranking titles from Cliff Thorburn's site.

I would like to reinstate these non-ranking events. He claims there are no sources for these events. There are sourced on Cliff's website. Now my real issue is the same kind of results are dotted all over other players pages from the 60's and 70's and there are no sources listed for them and they are not an issue DooksFoley147 (talk) 12:06, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

• I would like to note that this has been discussed previously in the above talk section, hence the removal of these results. Comments welcome from anyone if they feel anything has changed since the above was last discussed. Andygray110 (talk) 12:17, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

The last time you said you and others had no problem leaving them in and people were happy that they were included as far as I know. DooksFoley147 (talk) 12:55, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

We have a source on Thorburn's website it is better than no sourse and he hardly made them up. You can actually read on Chris Turner's site that Thorburn won the North American Titles. They are mentioned. DooksFoley147 (talk) 12:59, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

North American Championship wins of 1971 and 1972 that were removed are listed on Chris Turner' snooker archive. Do people want to check this out ?. DooksFoley147 (talk) 13:06, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

• I don't see them. I may be mistaken so could you provide the link to the page within his website where these are? In reply to your statement regarding "he hardly made them up", I agree it's unlikely. However, for all we know in theory he could have played a match against his mate and called it the North American Snooker Championship. Who played in this tournament? Was it a professional or amateur tournament? We don't know because there are no other sources to back it up. As for the other results "dotted all over other players pages from the 60's and 70's", could you clarify exactly what pages and tournament? Just because mistakes have potentially been made on some pages doesn't mean it's ok to replicate them on other pages. On this point, a better place for discussion would probably be Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Snooker. Andygray110 (talk) 23:54, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

1974 Championship

Thorburn's 13–11 win over Julien St Dennis is listed as the "professional championship" on Chris Turner's a well-known snooker site. Looking at Canadian press articles from 1974, it looks like this was actually not a professional event - there were 18 entrants (Vancouver Sun, 21 October 1974, p. 23) and there were not that many Canadian professionals at the time. At the moment this event is under both amateur and professional events in the article - can anyone settle this? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 15:21, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Only two players competed in the professional tournament in Ottawa on November 1st, Thorburn and St Dennis maybe that it why there is some mix up 92.251.129.196 (talk) 00:38, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I think the same players played in both finals in 74. Professional players like Thorburn and werbeniuk played in amateur national events after turning pro back in those days as you can see from the results 92.251.129.196 (talk) 01:15, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Do you have a source for the 1 November date? (CueTracker, which is not regarded as a reliable source here, has 1 Nov but also has a disclaimer "Dates tournament was held unknown" for "1974 Canadian Professional Championship".) The Star-Phoenix (24 December 1974, p.19) says "In October, Thorburn won the Canadian snooker title he lost in 1973 when he defeated Julien St Denis" but there is no mention there or in other newspaper sources I've seen of a separate professional championship. (And Werbeniuk, not St Denis, was the other Canadian professional at the time, as far as I know.) Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 10:53, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Actually, Turner's site says "The first official Canadian Pro Championship was in 1983 but there was an unofficial one held three years earlier". Clive Everton and Ian Morrison both also also state in books that 1983 was the first official event. Corrected above. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:25, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

That is not right either because if you look in Kirk Steven's players profile on Turner's site it is claimed Steven's won the Canadian professional championship in 1979 and 1981 but these results are not listed in the tournament results section. Turner has made mistakes also remember, his word is not gospel. 92.251.234.178 (talk) 12:43, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I also know Thorburn won the 1974 World Masters in Australia and the 1980 Lada Snooker Championship. Can you help me find sources for these please ?. I am sure the Lada was a 4 man event and Thorburn beat Higgins in the final. Regards 92.251.234.178 (talk) 12:46, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

All sources can have errors. Do you have any approximate date or further details for those 1974 and 1980 events? I couldn't find them in Morrison's 1989 book, which has a wealth of info on lesser-known tournaments.

I found an interesting section earlier today: Everton, writing about snooker in Canada, said "Until the late seventies ... Championships were promoted from time to time but with no national governing body or affiliation to world governing bodies to lend them any kind of official status, such event were subject to the whims of promoters and a maelstrom of personal squabbles." (Guinness Snooker: the Records, pp134-135). Regards BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:44, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

No dates or sources but I don't know how to find them like you tbh. I see from Everton's book that Canadian Championships did go ahead before 1980, so I believe the 1974 event did happen 92.251.234.178 (talk) 15:39, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

CBSA and newspaper sources confirm (to my satisfaction, anyway) that Thorburn's win against St Denis in 1974 was the "pro-am" event, not a professional one. I couldn't find anything on the "1974 World Masters in Australia" or the "1980 Lada Snooker Championship" despite looking for them in several books and some newspaper archives. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:21, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Selected sources (requiring Newspapers.com access):

The Ottawa Journal, 9 October 1974 (newspapers.com link) says that "The Canadian Snooker Championships" will take place the following week, featuring 18 players who won local or regional tournaments. Top seeds will be Bill Werbeniuk, Thorburn, Robert Paquette, and Julien St Denis.

The Gazette (Montreal), 10 October 1974 (newspapers.com link) has pretty much the same info as the previous day's Ottawa Journal

The Vancouver Sun, 16 October 1974 (newspapers.com link) reports on the "Canadian snooker championships" saying that Thorburn defeated Fred Pepper, and listing four other results.

The Ottawa Journal, 21 October 1974 (newspapers.com link) reports that Thorburn defeated Julien St Denis 13-11 in the final of the "Canadian snooker championship", having been the top seed of eighteen entrants.

No matches on Newspapers.com for "'Cliff Thorburn' 'Julien St Denis' snooker" found between 21 October and 21 December, when the The Calgary Herald (newspapers.com link) mentions "in October, Thorburn won back the Canadian snooker title he lost in 1973 when he defeated Julien St. Denis"

BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:53, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

• A list of "Open Snooker" champions from the Canadian Billiards and Snooker Association (link) includes Thorburn as 1974 winner, with St Denis as runner-up.
• Chris Turner's snooker archive says "The first official Canadian Pro Championship was in 1983 but there was an unofficial one held three years earlier." (link)
• In The Hamlyn Encylopedia of Snooker, Ian Morrison says that "The first official Canadian professional championships were held in 1983."
• CueTracker is not regarded as a reliable source for Wikipedia. It currently includes a 1974 Canadian Championship as a "Pro-am National Championship." It doesn't appear to list a 1974 Canadian Professional Championship.

BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 01:32, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I think you are worrying too much about it to be honest. There were lots of unofficial events back then. Kirk Steven's won two professional Canadian championships that are listed on some sites and not on others this would give him 3 in total instead of one. Where are you finding all these old articles anyway ?. 31.200.188.162 (talk) 16:56, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

This seems quite likely to be a gray area as some events were never really defined as professional or not. However the sources Benny has mentioned seem to agree on it being pro-am (which is probably what it was.) However, there is a difficulty with this as what constitutes a professional tournament with amateur players in it and a Pro-Am? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:51, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

It also says that events were independently run back then so it would be like a non sanctioned wpbsa event nowadays. It could well be a non ranking event also with a group of players who knows. Various events down the years have had professionals and invited amateur wildcards playing in them especially in the 80's events in the World Series in China, Thailand, India etc . They were all classed as non ranking events even though amateurs played. Not everything has to be a pro-am either remember. 31.200.190.47 (talk) 13:55, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Does anyone have a source that says this was a professional championship? I would have thought that the Canadian Billiards and Snooker Association (archived) source would have been enough to show that it was either amateur or pro-am, considering this CBSA source has a completely different list of winners to the Canadian Professional Championship from 1980 onwards. (1974 was added to that Wikipedia article in February, without any source being cited.)

• I have seen no evidence at all that there were two separate events in 1974 where Thorburn defeated St Dennis 13-11 in the final.
• My suggestion is to call the tournament in question the "Canadian Open Snooker Championship" and move it to "Amateur finals". (1974 newspapers usually call it "Canadian Snooker Championship"; CBSA has "Open Snooker"), and amend the names of the subsequent "Canadian Amateur Championships"
• If we keep it under "Non-ranking finals" then the other events currently listed as "Canadian Amateur Championship" under "Amateur events" should be moved there too and retitled "Canadian Open Championship" or "Canadian Open Snooker Championship" or whatever
• We can add a footnote to the effect of Everton's comment about lack of official governance, and may need to add one to distinguish the 1974 event in question from the 1974 Canadian Open.

BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:02, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

No it was an unofficial non-ranking event ran independently as we read above and do not move it to an amateur final, the other Canadian Amateur finals do not need to be touched. It was a different result from the Canadian Amateur final 11-9, with a different score. Just leave it is as a non-ranking event. Why does this event bother you so much ?. 80.233.56.46 (talk) 17:15, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

It seemed to be an unofficial Championship like the ones kirk Steven's won in 1979 and 1981 which are referenced on the Chris Turner site, these were also non-ranking which should be added, just leave the Thorburn event of 1974 as a non-ranking event. Nobody is going to even bother to worry about changing other amateur events from Canada to any other section. I really think you are worrying about this issue too much tbh 80.233.56.46 (talk) 17:20, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

I've opened a dispute resolution case as I don't think we're progressing much here, and an independent view will probably help. (Lee Vilenski FYI, as you commented above.) Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:06, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Cliff Thorburn/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MWright96 (talk · contribs) 20:57, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Will review Thorburn's article as thanks for reviewing the 2002 Masters. MWright96 (talk) 20:57, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Lead

• The Reference in the lead after Thorburn's birth date is not needed there but in the prose
• "and winning the prestigious invitational Masters three times," - the word highlighted in bold is non-neutral
• Maybe the third and fourth paragraphs can be merged into one

All addressed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Early life

• Any more information about his parents?

I've added a little based on Black Ball Farce & Cue Ball Wizards and a Guardian article. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 01:04, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

• "He left school at the age of 16," - what school did Thorburn go to?

Couldn't find this information in any of the sources. I thought it might be in one of the 1950's articles about his lacrosse career, but it wasn't as far as I could see. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 01:04, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

• Wikilink snooker on the first instance only

Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 01:04, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

• "He spend time with Fred Davis and Rex Williams when they toured Canada in 1970," - typo; should be spent

Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:06, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• "he reportedly made a maximum break of 147 against Fred Hardwick." - in a tournament match, exhibition match or a practice game?

The Ottawa Journal doesn't say, but I found a little article about it in Billiards and Snooker magazine for September 1970 that makes it clear it wasn't in competition. Amended the text. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 01:04, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

• "He won the North American championship in 1971, making six century breaks during the tournament, equalling the record for century breaks in a single tournament" - repetition of both the words "tournament" and "century breaks"

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:06, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Early professional career

• "Thorburn played John Spencer in a series of three exhibition matches in 1971, and although he lost all three matches," - repetition of "matches"
• "and on the day he arrives," - day of his arrival,
• "losing the quarter-final 12–19 to Eddie Charlton, and, the following year, lost 14–15 to Higgins" - repetition of "losing/lost"
• Wikilink session on the first instance to the relevant snooker-related article
• "winning against Willie Thorne and Graham Miles to reach the final, where he won 8–6 against Taylor." - repetition of "win/winning"
• "Thorburn reached the final of the 1978 1978 Masters" - duplicate mention of the year "1978"

All addressed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 19:08, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

1980 world snooker champion

• "then lost 3–5 to Griffiths in the Quarter-final." - the word in bold doesn't need to begin with a capital letter in this instance

Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• wikilink interval to the relevant article

 Pending I couldn't find an appropriate entry in Glossary of cue sports terms, or a suitable standalone article for this. Is there any target that you can suggest please? BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• "with Higgins taking the following to the make it 11–11." - following two to level at 11–11.

Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• "before Higgins squared the match at 15–15." - equalised at 15–15.

Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• "and made a 51 break after than to win the title." - typo; should be that

Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• "Thorburn is generally regarded as the first player from outside Britain to win the world championship, with Horace Lindrum's win in the match 1952 World Snooker Championship usually being disregarded." - repetition of "win"

Done. Also removed stray "match." BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• What's the reason given for Lindrum's 1952 world championship victory being disregarded?

I've added a footnote to attempt to address this. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 01:16, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

• "Thorburn decided to move back to Canada." - return

Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:02, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

1983 world championship maximum break

• Wikilink table to billiards table
• "with Thorburn emerging as the winner,13–12." - needs to be a space between the comma and the number "13"
• "on the day that he made his maximum break." - how about on the day of his maximum break.

All addressed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 19:13, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

1984 to 1989

• " where he met Thorne, with Thorne winning five frames in a row after the pair had been tied at 8–8." - repetition of "Thorne"

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:16, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• "to win 13–8." - think there are several words missing from this sentence

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:16, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• Wikilink penalty points to the relevant article on the first instance only

Linked to "foul" in cuegloss. Let me know if there is a better target. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:16, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• Think the second and third paragraphs should be merged together

Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:16, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• "In 1988 Thorburn was fined £10,000 and two ranking points," - think there's a word missing to introduce the loss of two ranking points

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:16, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

• The fourth and fifth paragraphs I believe should be merged together

Done. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:16, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Later years

• "In 2010, Thorburn returned to the UK to compete on the Snooker Legends Tour where he faced Alex Higgins, Jimmy White and John Parrott." - sentence is lacking a reliable source to verify that it's correct

Reworded and added a source. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:31, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Personal life

• You can mention that he is an 1995 inductee of the BC Sports Hall of Fame with the appropriate reference

Added. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:06, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Performance and rankings timeline

• There needs to be some text above the table so that the reference is not a floating one

Removed floating ref. Refs pending for New Zealand Masters, Pot Black (most years), and 2 x Canadian Professional Championship. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 19:24, 4 January 2021 (UTC) Added refs for previously-unsourced results. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:00, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Ranking finals: 10 (2 titles, 8 runners-up)

• Same issue as the one in the above sub-section

Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 19:28, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Notes

• All four notes need to be cited to reliable sources

Added. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:58, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

References

• The authors can be linked where appropriate with the authorlink= field in the relevant references
• Reference 26 "Embassy world professional championship" is lacking the page numbers
• It should be stated in Reference 39 "Assetereum Masters Seniors Championship 2018" that is source is from YouTube through the via= field
• The page numbers for Reference 42 "A Billiards and Snooker Compendium" need to be spaced out
• Reference 54 "Other National Professional Championships – Canadian Professional Championship" is missing the accessdate

All addressed. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 19:54, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Shall put the review on hold to allow the nominator to address or query the points raised above. MWright96 (talk) 13:11, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Many thanks for the thorough and constructive review, MWright96. Apologies for the silly errors that I'd left in. Let me know what else is required. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 01:18, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

@BennyOnTheLoose: Now promoting to GA class. MWright96 (talk) 08:56, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

References