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Talk:Clara Thalmann/GA1

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GA Review

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: The Blue Rider (talk · contribs) 11:42, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Lead

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  • Since Workers' Party of Marxist Unification isn't further referenced in the lead maybe remove the acronym. What do you think?

Biography

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  • Is it know which exact age she joined the Communist Party of Switzerland?
  • Is there any proposal of the Spanish anarcho-syndicalism that Thalmann was specially fond?
  • Even though it's later implied they are a couple, I think it should be made clear in the first mention of Paul Thalmann that he is Clara Thalmann's spouse: she met Paul Thalmann through → she met Paul Thalmann, her future husband, through

Spanish Civil War

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  • A little abruptly that we are introduced to this professional swimmer facet of Clara Thalmann. I suggest adding some sort of background information about her swimming career in the introductory prose at the above section.
  • How did she got involved in the Battle of Barcelona?
  • She was in Barcelona, the coup happened, she went to the barricades. It's really that simple. This same thing actually happened with a lot of the prospective Olympic athletes that were there. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since different sources are being used for each statement, it makes me think that the «although» in Altough, she was only... is WP:EDITORIAL. I don't have access to the sources so if this isn't the case do say so.
  • Is it specified why women had no place in a professional army or were purged from the ranks?
  • To be blunt, misogyny. Republican men generally thought that women should be working behind the lines, often in hospitals, rather than fighting on the front. Thalmann herself said as much: "The women who built barricades and dug trenches … were now sent to hospitals". --Grnrchst (talk) 09:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • If this is said by the sources this could be added to the article, purged...due to misogyny. The Blue Rider 10:07, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not mentioned explicitly in the sources, which is why I didn't write that. It's just the vibe I've gotten from years of researching this area of history. Even the most progressive of men didn't like it when women were empowered. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:43, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per MOS:SEAOFBLUE, two wikilinks right after each other are generally avoided. With that in mind, maybe remove the wikilink from «Battallion» since it's a more well-known term or if you can find a sensical rephrase for that even better.
  • What makes Bolshevik–Leninists worth of a redlink? (optional for the review)
  • What's the relevance of the Friends of Durruti Group being under Hans Freund direction?
  • The Friends of Durruti were often accused of being Trotskyists, or under the control of Trotskyists. Thalmann's thoughts on this in her memoirs led weight to that, even if the allegations may or may not have been accurate. I can cut this if it's not relevant to her biography. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe it could be clarified that them being under a Trotskyist wasn't desirable, something like «believed» → «accused» and removing the German to give more emphasis that he was a Trotskyist, would make it more clear. What do you think? - The Blue Rider 10:07, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm just going to quote from the sources here, in order to better show what's being said on this issue:
    • Alba & Schwartz 1988, pp. 277-278: "Further, there are important elements of the Thalmanns’ narrative that, while absorbing and compelling, do not correspond with the accounts of others. Perhaps the most serious such instance involves the relationship between Moulin, the young member of the Trotskyist group around Munis, and the anarchist grouping of the Friends of Durruti. The Thalmanns’ highly colored account of the relations between Moulin and Jaume Balius, the main figure in the Friends of Durruti, would have the reader believe that the Friends were virtually under the guidance of Moulin; ironically, exactly the charge made by Stalinists. In this, the Thalmanns seem motivated by a “Trotskyist” disbelief in the ability of the anarchists to do anything “really revolutionary” or even commonsensical without the intervention of Marxists. Such considerations have led other commentators, including some eminent historians, to ascribe to Balius a clearly nonexistent former membership in the Workers and Peasants' Bloc (BOC)."
    • Bolloten 1991, p. 872n87: "For an account by the Trotskyists, Clara and Paul Thalmann, of the efforts by Moulin, one of the most active militants of the Bolshevik Leninists, to influence Jaime Balius, the vice-secretary of the Friends of Durruti, "in all-night discussions," to abandon his "innate Anarchist mistrust of the Marxists" and to collaborate with the Trotskyists, see Revolution fur die Freiheit, 189-90.
    Alba & Schwartz's indictment on this leads me to think I should cut it, although maybe it's still worth mentioning with greater clarification. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:34, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • She found herself in a rooftop and what happened next?
  • Mostly they sat there occasionally exchanging fire with the Civil Guards until the conflict was over. Orwell talks about this in Chapter Ten of Homage to Catalonia, although he doesn't mention Thalmann by name. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • By which grounds were they imprisoned?
  • That's the million peseta question that everybody was asking the government at the time. :P We could assume it's for armed resistance against the government, although in practice, Stalinists were actively repressing anyone associated with the Trotskyists at the time. For example, we still don't know the exact circumstances of POUM leader Andreu Nin's disappearance. Often there just aren't specific charges when authoritarian governments are cracking down on dissidents. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

World War II and after

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  • With a wikilink in the above section being added to anti-fascism, this one becomes duplicated so it should be removed.
  • Was the attempt of creating a egalitarian community successful?
  • Working with the New Left's students on what?

Later life

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  • What is Paul Thalmann's cause of death?
  • Do you think Stephen Schwartz should be red-linked?
  • Did she participate in the execution of said nuns? If so, this should be mentioned in the Biography section.
  • No, she just felt bad that it happened. Full quote: "Knowing what I know today I would not have agreed with … for example, nuns and suspicious persons being shot immediately. This happened in the heat of battle and was the result of an angry discharge of a generation’s suppressed feelings of impotence towards their exploiters and the fascists who plotted the coup. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:20, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • What's her cause of death?
  • No idea. Again, she would have been 78, so it's not inconceivable that it was just old age. German Wikipedia vaguely suggests she was ill, but I couldn't verify that in the source it cited. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:20, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Selected works

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  • Per WP:MOS-BIBLIO, if translations of the works exist it's recommended that they are also listed.

Stability

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  • There were multiple edits today (21 Oct.), some of them very significant— 2,919 and 16,079 bytes. Is the nominator, Grnrchst, planning to further edit the article? Misread the day, the edits were made yesterday. The article is stable.

Copyvio

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  • Earwig's Copyvio Detector points to 10,7% due to a «Further reading» entry (all sources are books not (fully) available online).

Image

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  • The image is correctly tagged with a copyright status, is relevant to the topic and has a suitable caption.

Sources

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  • Since all sources are books and I don't have access to them, I will be requesting the nominator quotations from some citations. All sources numbers are from this version. If the nominator would be kind to provide below the excerpts that verify the following sources #1, #6, #11, #18, #25 and #30, it would be very much appreciated. Thank you.
  • I have added links where I could for easier verification. For spotchecks:
  • (1) Kruizinga 2020, p. 17: "Clara Thalmann, born in Basel, Switzerland, in 1908 [...]"; Sanders 1997, p. 296: "Clara Thalmann-Ensner: born in Basel, 1908"
  •  Verified Though, aren't names linked by an apostrophe considered to be only one? If so, they should be both mentioned and also in the article title. The Blue Rider 10:17, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you're talking about the use of "Clara Thalmann-Ensner" by Sanders, I'm not sure how common this use is to justify that. Most sources refer to her simply as "Clara Thalmann", with fewer referring to her as "Clara Ensner" or "Clara Thalmann-Ensner". --Grnrchst (talk) 10:36, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • (6) Alba & Schwartz 1988, p. 124: "[...] Clara Ensner, came before [her husband] hoping to compete as a swimmer in the Barcelona antifascist olympics [...]"; Durgan 2018, p. 144n36: "Thalmann had gone to Spain, where she was joined by her partner Pavel Thalmann, as part of the Swiss Workers’ Swimming Club to take part in the Popular Olympics"; Kruizinga 2020, p. 17: "Her interests in Spanish ultra-left politics combined with her love of swimming to bring her to Barcelona in July 1936, where she was to compete in the Workers’ Olympiad."; Physick 2017, p. 17: "We do, however, have on record that two women athletes – Clara Thalmann, a swimmer from Switzerland, and Marina Ginestá, an athlete from France – who were in Barcelona for the games, joined the militias."; Stout 2020, p. 76: "Clara Thalmann, a Swiss German swimmer representing the Arbeiterschwimmclubs (workers’ swimming clubs), had a similar story"
  •  Verified
  • (11) Kruizinga 2020, p. 17: "But not everybody accepted the contemporary gender norms that a women’s place in war was at home or in the hospitals. Clara Thalmann [...] was one of them, although she conceded in later interviews that at the time she scarcely considered herself a trailblazer or even a feminist."; Lines 2011, p. 57: "Clara Thalmann, a Swiss volunteer and anarchist who fought with the Durruti Column on the Aragon front and later published her memoirs of the war, estimated during an interview in 1976 that whomen constituted 2 percent of the members of the militias on the front lines."
  •  Verified
  • (18) Alba & Schwartz 1988, p. 180: "The Bolshevik-Leninist Section (SBL) consisted almost entirely of foreigners. At the beginning, the Trotskyists had been mainly led by Fosco, the Italian Trotskyist charged with relations between the POUM and the antifascist refugees, and had managed to establish fairly good relations with the party, thanks to the flexibility and enthusiasm of such individuals as Pavel and Clara Thalmann [...]"
  •  Verified
  • (25) Kruizinga 2020, p. 21: "They were released only following an urgent appeal from the Labour and Socialist International, and immediately left the country. Apparently, there was no longer a place in Spain for their brand of anti-fascism, which fell foul of both established political and gender lines."; Stout 2020, p. 113: "The Thalmanns attempted to flee by boat shortly after the May events and were captured. Fortunate enough to be in contact with friends in Switzerland, they were released and moved to Paris [...]
  •  Verified
  • (30) Bolloten 1991, p. 860n12: "Paul Thalmann, another Trotskyist and onetime secretary of the Communist youth in Switzerland, who fought with the POUM militia, alleges in an interview published in 1976: "There was a strong right wing in the POUM that made short work of the Trotskyists; they also shot some—this, one should also know" (Clara Thalmann and Paul Thalmann, Revolution fur die Freiheit, 380). However, when questioned by me in 1984, Clara Thalmann stated emphatically that she had no knowledge of the executions alleged by her husband, Paul."
  •  Verified
I hope these excerpts were helpful. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:51, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They were very much helpful, thank you very much. The Blue Rider 10:17, 22 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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