Talk:Christian nationalism

Add Lebanon in the "By Country" Section

Can we start a section on Lebanon? I feel like Lebanon has a lot to go off of as far as Christian nationalism is concerned. I think important groups to mention would be the Kataeb Party, Lebanese Front, Lebanese Forces (Christian militia), Lebanese Forces (political party), and the Free Patriotic Movement. 140.141.4.65 (talk) 21:51, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Please do not add material that is not cited by reliable, secondary sources. See our guidelines on no original research and reliable sources (also, secondary sources). ButlerBlog (talk) 02:08, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

The Case for Christian Nationalism

An IP editor has repeatedly reinserted material regarding the book The Case for Christian Nationalism, which is not a book for an academic or academically-respected press. It is a book that defines and recommends a very specific, xenophobic version of Christian nationalism that cannot be assumed to be the general view of American Christian nationalists. The insertions have lacked third-party sources showing that the quotes being used of are import. It should not be reinserted. -- Nat Gertler (talk) Nat Gertler (talk) 06:24, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

"xenophobic version of Christian nationalism that cannot be assumed to be the general view of American Christian nationalists" So, you think that Christian nationalists are not xenophobic? Based on which source? Dimadick (talk) 08:05, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying that American Christian nationalism is not generally or frequently xenophobic; I'm saying that because an advocacy book with Christian Nationalism in the title calls for xenophobic action, that does not make it a proper source for such statements. Cannot be assumed is meant differently than isn't. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 15:14, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, the situation has changed just in the last few days with the publication of Owen Strachan's "One “Holy Nation” in Christ: Christian Nationalism in Historical and Theological Perspective" in GDJT. He notes (p. 83) that Wolfe's book is "the longest text written in recent days to support CN". The most interesting quote is on p. 59: "In general, the New Testament is — by and large — missing from Wolfe's Thomistic project of political philosophy." StAnselm (talk) 18:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure that says much for inclusion here, but may fit nicely into the book's own article. Nat Gertler (talk) 19:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

It’s looks to be a fine source for the book and the wider phenomenon of Christian Nationalism in the context of this page. 3Kingdoms (talk) 16:20, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I am uncertain of the reliability of the GDJT. It is a fairly new entry to the journal field, published by a ministry rather than by an academic press. However, I am unused to evaluating journals. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 18:08, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Armaly et. al.

This source appears to contradict itself. It says Christian nationalism is strongly related to support for specific and abstract political violence on its own. But it also says At low levels of white identity, perceived victimhood, and QAnon support, Christian nationalism was not a particularly infuential predictor of support for violence. These are just directly in contradiction with each other. Am I missing something? If CN is only a predictor of support for violence only in conjunction wtih these other views (e.g. QAnon support), as the second quote says, then it would seem CN isn't strongly related to support for violence on its own (i.e., in isolation from other views, such as QAnon support), as the first quote says. So both quotes can't be true. Shinealittlelight (talk) 17:29, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I think there's a bit of nuance needed to understand the source. Firstly, the source makes it explicitly clear that CN itself is associated with political violence. As stated, Christian nationalism in the United States is associated with increased support for political violence like that seen at the U.S. Capitol in January 2021. The study goes into studying whether or not white identity, perceived victomhood, and support for QAnon influences the likelihood of violence by followers of CN, in which it finds support for violence appears to be most potent when combined with other individual characteristics. However, CN itself is still strongly related to support for specific and abstract political violence on its own, however, when compared at low levels of support with the previously mentioned influences, it was not a particularly influential predictor of support for violence. However, the source makes clear that the conditional nature of these effects should not be misunderstood to minimize the extent of the risks associated with Christian nationalism, as Christian nationalism, perceived victimhood, and white identity are all positively correlated, this toxic blend strikes us as an empirical reality rather than a hypothetical. Thus, CN itself is associated with violence, and these three influences increase the likelihood of violence. However, saying that without these three influences CN is not associated with violence is false, as the source makes it clear CN is still associated with violence on its own, its just that these cues inflame it. BootsED (talk) 01:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Do you affirm (with the source) that CN is both strongly related to support for political violence but also that CN is not a particularly influential predictor of support for violence? If so, can you please explain how something can be strongly related to support for violence but not a predictor of support for violence? Shinealittlelight (talk) 03:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I think I explained myself in my prior reply. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to be more specific. I also disagree with the phrasing of your question. You are taking a quote out-of-context and removing half of it to prove a point that the article does not make. I also disagree that the source contradicts itself. If there was a contradiction the peer-reviewed study would not have been published. BootsED (talk) 23:09, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not following your reply. You and the source appear to assert that (by itself) CN is strongly related to support for violence but is not a particularly influential predictor of support for violence. That at least appears to be contradictory. Some "peer reviewed" journals are very low quality. I can't say for sure that this one is in general, but it appears that they published an incoherent article in this instance. The way to show that this is not the case is to explain how "strongly related to support" for violence can differ from being "a particularly influential predictor" of such support. Sorry if you tried to expalin this and I missed it. It wasn't for lack of trying to understand what you wrote. I would add that we are currently entirely lacking the admission from the source that CN without these other factors is not correlated with increased support for violence. That's obviously an important admission in the source, and needs to be in our article. Shinealittlelight (talk) 00:34, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

POV Info

I deleted a recently-added paragraph that clearly violated WP:NPOV and WP:ATTACKPAGE and is not representative globally. For content as inflammatory as this, much stronger WP:RS sourcing (rather than one citation per claim) should be found before reconsidering its addition. --1990'sguy (talk) 02:29, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed - adding a new book discussing South Africa isn't justifiable. You can't say that Christian nationalists are white supremacists from a global perspective. Christian nationalism is a form of religious nationalism, not ethnic nationalism. Would a Christian nationalist in Nigeria be a white supremacist? I suggest that if there is country-specific material, it be added to those sections. desmay (talk) 13:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes. The literature supports that white missionaries historically assumed themselves at the top of a hierarchy and acted accordingly. I can provide a dozen more citations. Skyerise (talk) 19:27, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

No. Read WP:BRD. Your edits haven't been accepted by two editors and the onus is on your to get consensus for the material you're adding. It's not appropriate for you to keep shoving material that does not have consensus in the article. The article is not about white missionaries is it? It's about a religious Christian nationalism. You need to explicitly discuss exactly what it is that you want to add here. desmay (talk) 20:05, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to criticize the sources then. WP:BRD is an essay and it is not binding. Skyerise (talk) 20:06, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I feel as it was properly cited, the South African portion maybe not but it is true Christian nationalism may attract white supremacy, obviously not all believe in this but some do that also believe in Christian nationalism. Wiiformii (talk) 20:08, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

@Wiiformii:, if that's added it needs to be made clear. Obviously, white supremacy wouldn't have anything to do with Christian nationalism in Ghana, would it? desmay (talk) 20:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Christian nationalism doesn't only exist in the United States now does it? Plus the article you linked literally says "Christian nationalism is a growing force in Ghana" Wiiformii (talk) 20:14, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

That's correct. So if there is a country in which white supremacy and Christian nationalism are tied together, that needs to be made explicit. The black majority of Christian nationalists in Ghana are obviously not white supremacists. desmay (talk) 20:16, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Actually, that's a naive assumption. See this article: "the general rule is 'lighter is better'." Racists prefer lighter, even in Ghana. Skyerise (talk) 20:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Your link makes no mention of Christian nationalism. Conflating that with Christian nationalism is WP:OR and your novel synthesis, in violation of Wikipedia policy. desmay (talk) 20:22, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

On a talk page. If you throw alphabet soup at me all the time, it impedes discussion. Where was I suggesting adding anything to the article? Just pointing out that "obvious" assumptions are often untrue, and I don't think you know as much as you think you do if that's how you choose to respond to a talk page comment. Skyerise (talk) 20:25, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough, although I do not have many strong opinions, I feel as @Skyerise knows more, I just saw this edit on the recent edits page but in all honesty I do not know much, but I hope you guys find consensus. Wiiformii (talk) 20:17, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

@Skyerise:, do you understand that it makes no sense to broadly paint Christian nationalism as being associated with white supremacy when Christian nationalism exists in African countries? If you want to add that to country specific sections, then that's fine but you should provide the original quotes from the citations here so that they can be examined and discussed. desmay (talk) 20:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

As I pointed out above, even in black majority countries, 'lighter is better' is the prevailing attitude of racists, whether they be Christian or other. Skyerise (talk) 20:22, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Shadeism is not the same as white supremacy. Either way, your argument offers nothing in support of the assertion that Christian nationalists in Ghana are white supremacists. You can't make the claim that there is overlap of Christian nationalism with white supremacy when many Christian nationalists are non-white. At this time, please share direct quotations from the books you want to cite in the article so people in this discussion can see if they support your claims. desmay (talk) 20:31, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Peer-reviewed journal articles are not a strong enough source? Also, the material removed has nothing to do with Africa and Ghana. Saying, "because this doesn't relate to Africa and Ghana several peer-reviewed journal articles are not good enough and a whole section of the page must be removed" is ludicrous. BootsED (talk) 23:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Christian nationalism has manifestations globally, including countries like Ghana, Zambia, and Brazil. Do you think that white supremacy is a part of the Christian nationalist movements there? The ideology section is not just about the United States. White supremacy is not an integral part of Christian nationalism everywhere in the same way that displaying Christian symbols in the public square is. If you think that white supremacy is an issue of Christian nationalism in the US, add it in that section, but not in the general Ideology section. desmay (talk) 00:06, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

There's been some work done on the page and I and Desmay have moved a lot of the America-centric information to the United States section. I agree that better sources for Christian nationalism in a global sense are needed. BootsED (talk) 00:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

United States-specific material dominating core article sections

I have just moved United States-specific material out of the Ideology section into the US section.[1] The citation used for that material names specifically, in the abstract, "Christian symbols, values, and policies enshrined as the established religion of the United States".[2] desmay (talk) 20:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I have tried to WP:GLOBALIZE this section by adding material from the London School of Economics article that discusses Christian nationalism in various countries.[3] To follow WP:NPOV, if we are going to discuss a specific manifestation of Christian nationalism, we must mention the country that that specific manifestation is happening in. desmay (talk) 21:00, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I've added some material regarding Christian nationalism in Brazil too.[4] This distinguishes between various manifestations of Christian nationalism, which aren't the same in every country. desmay (talk) 21:10, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

We definitely need an article on Christian nationalism in the United States. StAnselm (talk) 21:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Yep. Support creating a separate article and summarizing it here. It's just going to become a bigger and bigger part of discourse in the US at least through this year's election given Project 2025 and the trajectory of conservative politics in the US. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

That's probably a good idea. BootsED (talk) 23:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Jarble:, who made the initial redirect from Christian nationalism in the United States to the United States section of this page. If you have more information about this redirect and its history please let us know. I believe consensus has formed that a separate page for Christian nationalism in the United States is needed due to the size of the existing section and its increasing prevalence in American politics. I see that there is also a category for this topic along with an unused template that suggests to me this page previously existed but was folded into this one. Also, would it be possible to redirect existing links for Christian nationalism#United States to this new page as well? I would do this myself but I am unfamiliar with redirects and don't want to mess anything up. Thanks. BootsED (talk) 00:44, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

@BootsED: That redirect has no history and no talk page -- it's just a redirect. The only mention of the sidebar I can see, which kind of explains it, is Talk:Nick_Fuentes#Extended-confirmed-protected_edit_request_on_29_May_2024. Once the new article is created, we would put links under the heading in this article and summarize it here. If you want to be cautious, create a draft of the new article and get input before moving it to mainspace. It would be a good idea to ensure there's at least more information in the new article than there was here. But there's no obligation to draft if you'd prefer to just get started on the new article. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 12:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)