Jump to content

Talk:Christ's Hospital

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

band captain

[edit]

"The current Band Captain is Michael Baskerville, or "Bean" to his peers." is it really necessary to list the current band captain, especially considering other school posts (like the senior Grecian, or even permanent adult posts like headmaster) aren't listed? Is it really appropriate to put a child's name on here, especially when he's otherwise no one of consequence? And isn't it "beans" anyway? Perhaps a section on the traditional posts held at CH would be better. Amo 19:26, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that any pupil's names should be listed, especially for particular positions, since they generally change at least once a year. Far better to provide more info about the school and its traditions (my connection with CH is that one of my sons is an Old Blue, well not that old really) Murray Langton 19:49, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Uniform

[edit]

Can We get some images of the uniform, its a very unique part of the school and this page would benefit from a image showing what it looks like, I don't have any good quality images myself but im sure someone out there does

Bluecoat School usage

[edit]

Are we sure that Bluecoast School identifies only this one school. In History of Manchester this term seems to designate a different school. This may be along the lines of several schools in the U.S. referring to themselves as "The University", as UofVa is sometimes called, for instance. WVhybrid 23:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of schools opened up in the model of CH. they copied it's charitable ends and it's style of dress and were also known as bluecoat schools. some of them still are, even in their formal title (unlike CH).Amo 15:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There are several bluecoat schools, however CH is The Bluecoat School. It is bow also the only one that retains the bluecoat uniform for everyday use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.199.207 (talk) 11:22, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Money

[edit]

Do all people have to pay now? I didn't know that. Also, I reckon some of the contributors (myself included) are pupils or old blues, since they know so much, like about Beans being Band Captain (I didn't know that; only that this year it's Geoff Janes)...

The school is not charging some people on their means, now they are doubling some people's fees... leaving them almost nothing a month for their parents to spend on food etc and other essentials out of their hard earned money. For your sake, do not bother with this school.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.107.16.155 (talk) 21:46, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of OBs

[edit]

Suggest we make category Category:Old Blues (in Category:People by schools in England) to replace list. Man vyi 09:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Or perhaps just a page, like List of Old Blues. Aboyall 18:55, 19 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I created the Category:Old Blues, but it was later renamed to Category:Christ's Hospital Old Blues (see the CFD discussion here). But it need not replace the list, which is also worth having, as it can and does include notable OBs who don't yet have a Wikipedia article. Xn4 02:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled

[edit]

Împortant alumni, oldish school, good article Victuallers 15:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thornton

[edit]

Under Accommodation - lists Houses - Details provided are incorrect for Thornton. Thornton named after Richard Thornton (1776 to 1865) who was a Merchant and Trader. He was at CH from 1785 to 1791. It is not named after Edward Thornton.Charlie52 (talk) 16:32, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Christ's Hospital (GAT Allan, revised Morpurgo) - the cited source - states (p.96 in my edition): "That a block was named for Sir Edward Thornton, an obscure diplomat, could be forgiven to an age which did not expect to find an ambassador among the products of a school whose sons were by definition born to families not blessed with the wealth or status... the sanctification of Edward Thornton has always been a blasphemy." The Thornton, regrettable though it might be, is indubitably Sir Edward. GAT Allan was at Housey in 1902 as a boy and later served as Clerk of the Foundation - a reliable source, I'd say. Man vyi (talk) 19:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Old Wykehamists, Old Etonians, etc. to become "Alumni of... "?

[edit]

Please see the discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2011 February 10#Former pupils by school in the United Kingdom. Moonraker2 (talk) 14:16, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

coat of arms

[edit]

The coat of arms depicted here is incorrect. The rose should be white, or in heraldic terms, argent. Escoville (talk) 12:30, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Traditions

[edit]

A pupil of Christ's Hospital , who is often the Senior Grecian, has the right to present a 'Loyal Address' to the sovereign on his or her way to or from their coronation. The first recorded instance was on August 3rd 1553 to Queen Mary and the latest on June 9th 1953 on the steps of St Paul's Cathedral to H.M. Queen Elizabeth II. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.43.213.15 (talk) 19:52, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ (sourced from 'Christs Hospital 400 years old', published by Christ's Hospital in 1953. No ISBN number recorded)

Referencing

[edit]

There seems to be an 'obsession' amongst contributors here in ensuring that every minute tradition of the school is included in the article. All of this fails to respect the 'tradition' and absolute requirement of Wikipedia that all content must comply with WP:V and WP:R, I.e. References must be included. For an article this size and a subject this famous the referencing is appalling. You regular contributors know where these references are, not me. Can we please add references to the article? The subject (the school) deserves it. Atlas-maker (talk) 20:03, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 4 external links on Christ's Hospital. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 08:08, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Date of foundation

[edit]

The lead says "established under a Royal Charter granted by King Edward VI in 1553, ten days before his death" (after my recent edits to text introduced by user:8livesremaining), but elsewhere we give the foundation date as 1552. The school cannot have been founded under a charter that had not yet been granted. Please resolve this contradiction. Verbcatcher (talk) 17:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the charter date. Please restore it if there is a good source and you can resolve the contradictions. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:30, 24 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have referenced the official date given by the Privy Council. Other historical sources suggest that Henry VIII had gifted the Grey Friars' church for the purpose of relief of the poor. His son Edward VI is credited with hearing and acting on a petition to found the hospital. Repairs to the extant buildings were reputed to have been completed by November 1552 in time to provide accommodation for 400 boys. This precedes the official award of the charter. As a body, Christ's Hospital only exists from the date of the charter 26.6.1553. Edward VI died 6.7.15538LR (talk) 21:52, 24 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, 8LR. However, the cited Privy Council's spreadsheet only says "26-Jun 1553 Christs Hospital", so it is not certain which Christ's Hospital it refers to. The Christ's Hospital of Abingdon article says it was "established in 1553 by royal charter". That article is poorly sourced, but the charity's website says "Christ's Hospital of Abingdon was founded in May 1553 by Royal Charter of Edward VI". It is unclear which of these Christ's Hospitals was established under this charter, or it could be both of them.
The school's website says "in November 1552, Christ’s Hospital opened its doors to 380 pupils", and "King Edward VI became patron and founder and a Royal Charter was signed to this effect by Edward just eleven days before his death in 1553." So it seems that the school opened in November 1552 before they had "sorted out the paperwork", and the royal charter was enacted in 1553. This ties up with the Privy Council spreadsheet. However, the school's website indicates that it was founded at the instigation of the king, prompted by a sermon the Bishop of London.
Based on this, we should change the foundation date back to 1552 and give the date of the Royal Charter in the History section. I propose "Christ's Hospital was established as a school in November 1552 at the instigation of King Edward VI. The king's patronage of the school was confirmed by a Royal Charter granted on 26 June 1553, eleven days before his death", citing the existing source and also the school's page linked above.
It would be good to name and link the Bishop of London. If the school's website is correct and the sermon was in 1552, then it must be Nicholas Ridley. However, stating this would break the WP:SYNTHESIS rule, unless we can cite a source that names Ridley as the preacher. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:35, 24 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
John Stow's Survey of London 1598 gives details of relevance. 1. That Henry VIII & mayor and commonality gifted Grey Friars Church in the 38th year of his reign. 2. In 1552 repairs began to Grey Friars house for the poor fatherless children.3. On 25.12.1552 the 340 children (i.e. girls and boys), dressed in russet cotton, lined the street to receive the passing lord mayor. 4. At Easter 1553, the children were seen in the blue they have ever since worn.8LR (talk) 10:09, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Further to the above, from the numerous sources I have referred to, all are in agreement that the Privy Council charter date refers to the Christ's Hospital at Newgate Street. If anyone has access to a work by Lawrence Stone, 'The Educational Revolution in England' 1964, could they please confirm the details for all the other schools who claim establishment from 1553 - there are many! c.f. the extant lord mayor of London at the time was George Barne II and, the Bishop of London and Westminster was the martyred Dr Nicholas Ridley. n.b. I am not sure that we can call the beginnings of the institution a 'school' until after the charter was awarded. As Stow says, the origins were the 'relief of the fatherless poor'.8LR (talk) 14:43, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The school's website says "in November 1552, Christ’s Hospital opened its doors to 380 pupils". Pupils implies a school, but even if it was initially more like an orphanage it was still established in 1552. In my opinion there is too little evidence to justify the change to the foundation date in the article. 1553 is supported by the school's website, by the London Metropolitan Archives source, and it may well be supported by the off-line sources cited by earlier editors. The only support for 1553 is the date of a Royal Charter and the supposition that the school could not have opened before this. I will restore the 1552 date. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:50, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The royal charter, enabled the findings of the Lord Mayor and Aldermen of the City of London's commision, and founded/refounded 3 hospitals Christ's, St.Thomas' and Bridewell [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.199.207 (talk) 11:40, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://search.lma.gov.uk/scripts/mwimain.dll/144/LMA_OPAC/web_detail/REFD+CLC~2F275?SESSIONSEARCH

Date of uniform

[edit]

The John Stow quote given above contradicts our claim that the current uniform has been used since 1552.

In the year 1552, began the repairing of the Grey Friars house for the poor fatherless children ; and in the month of November the children were taken into the same, to the number of almost four hundred. On Christmas Day, in the afternoon, while the lord mayor and aldermen rode to Paules, the children of Christ's hospital stood, from St. Lawerence lane end in Cheape towards Paules, all in one livery of russet cotton, three hundred and forty in number ; and in Easter next they were in blue at the Spittle and so have continued ever since.

— Stow, John (1598). Thoms, William J. (ed.). A Survey of London, written in the year 1598 by John Stow (New 1842 ed.). Whittaker. p. 119.

Unfortunately the source cited in the article is not available online, however I have found this issue on Amazon. The cover suggests that this is not an academic journal but is a magazine aimed at the general leisure market. This is not the most dependable type of source and is reasonable to discount it.

Presumably the blue uniform mentioned by Stow for Easter 1553 is more-or-less the current uniform. I will change the date to 1553, citing Stow. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:24, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Allegations of paedophile abuse

[edit]

Now that four members of staff (so far) have been charged with crimes up to and including rape, should this be included? Ride the Hurricane (talk) 23:54, 20 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but only with great care and watertight sourcing. These sources are reliable:
Verbcatcher (talk) 01:13, 21 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in mind that Wikipedia is not the news. We do not need a running commentary. If these people are convicted it will certainly need to be included.Charles (talk) 08:15, 21 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Charlesdrakew: One of them has pleaded guilty, so I think it should now be included. I have revised an IP editor's addition. Verbcatcher (talk) 02:16, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree.Charles (talk) 07:57, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that this is highly relevant and should be in the article. agtx 14:30, 27 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Does Roger Martin's name need to be in bold? I added the info about his arrest a few weeks ago but did not put it in bold to allow for the presumption of innocence. I wonder what others think? By all means he should be bold if convicted, but for the moment I'm not sure whether it's ethical to have his name as prominent as the convicted men's names.--MorbidStories (talk) 16:06, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge with The Doyle School of Design and Technology

[edit]

should be included in the main article. Not appropriate for a separate article DGG ( talk ) 05:32, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure about the reference, given that its not independent of the source. Anyone looking for confirmation would go to the school website anyway. Regardless, agree with merge, so   checkY Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 20:15, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it called a hospital?

[edit]

Why is the school called a hospital? Did it ever have patients? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.138.90.39 (talk) 03:16, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Because when it was first started in 1552 it was a hospital for vulnerable kids in the City of London, to provide accommodation and education for them. The word hospital had a broader meaning back then, it used to mean a place for people to lodge. Wymanb (talk) 03:52, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sexual abuse section

[edit]

I have restored the sexual abuse section in Drmies' version, which is even shorter than the short version I had intended to cut it down to. The abuse occurred over decades and multiple staff were found guilty and sentenced to prison terms; this goes beyond the norm and I thus do not agree that a short section constitutes undue weight. The other objection raised is that the school itself was not implicated: however, this is a boarding school and the BBC states that the abuse took place at the school. The 13 July BBC source: "found guilty of raping a 16-year-old pupil at Christ's Hospital School ... the sexual abuse at the school spanned more than 30 years and involved 22 victims". 5 July: "about their exploits with the boarding school students". Gotta go, sorry! Yngvadottir (talk) 13:38, 29 September 2018 (UTC) ... OK, home from work; I'm afraid my break ended abruptly. Press Association article in The Independent: "[Two other teachers] were both jailed in the last year after admitting offences at the school between the 1960s and 1980s." The Times, November 2016: "The claims involve nine separate cases of alleged sexual assault on boys and girls at the school". Yngvadottir (talk) 17:29, 29 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As long as the copy makes clear that the abuse took place at the school (haven't read it, and would rather not), I'm fine with a short bit in the history section. My biggest problems with the original were TOPIC, BLP and WEIGHT. Doc's version didn't address TOPIC. It's clear that it is topical now, so as long as WEIGHT hasn't been reintroduced by creating a subsection, as far as I'm concerned, we're done. Thanks to both Yngvadottir and Drmies. John from Idegon (talk) 17:31, 29 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

sexual abuse

[edit]

I am really uncomfortable about they way this have been removed for the page. It feels wrong. The issues at, for e.g. Repton, Chaterhouse, Ampleforth are all discussed abd are arguably not so extensive.

I do think one sentence hidden way is not enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StoneyLittleton (talk • contribs) 15:16, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The section had grown out of all proportion to the overall history of the school. The details can be found in the sources given.Charles (talk) 16:22, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@StoneyLittleton: like all Wikipedia articles, this is a work in progress. There has been some recent changes back and forth over this, as you can see in the history of the article. It appears the current situation is that the content covering this topic is now somewhat less than one tenth the size it was a month or so ago. An argument could be made for more substantial coverage -- but some unregistered editors seem to think that an argument could be made for no coverage at all! Either way, those arguments should be made here on the talk page. (As has already been begun in the section above this one.) What aspects should the article cover, in how much detail, and why? MPS1992 (talk) 17:15, 22 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

ties to slavery

[edit]

Would there be any merit in adding a sentence or two about the relatively recent articles written by newspapers regarding the school's ties to slavery, as there is already a sentence on the sexual abuse scandals... (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/03/elite-uk-schools-financial-links-to-slavery-revealed, https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/04/private-schools-slavery-links-virtue-signalling-fees-down/) Jel.boi (talk) 02:30, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Christ%27s_Hospital&oldid=1256560378"