Talk:Chopsticks/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Southeast Asia and chopsticks

I have a problem with the jumbling together of all of Southeast Asia here (but I'm not qualified to sort it out). It's just that the faux pas section REALLY depends on the country! Couldn't someone divide it by country who knows how?Sara Parks Ricker

Chopsticks in Japanese

"Ohashi" of chopsticks and "Hashi" of bridge are different words. The accents (or tones) are clearly different in standard Japanese. The former is Hight-Low and the latter is Low-High. --Nanshu 23:25 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Wood for chopsticks?

Is there any truth to the story that the Japense have bought up vast swaths of the Amazon rain forest in order to cut down trees for chopsticks? It's probably an urban legend, but if it's true, it might be useful to add here. I don't want to add it without proof. RickK 02:43, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

It is nothing more than an urban legend. According to [1], tropical trees are too fragile for chopsticks, and Chinese products hold a share of 90% of the Japanese market. In addition, at least Japanese products are efficiently made of thinned wood and other woods that cannot be utilized for other purposes. --Nanshu 00:38, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Though i have no idea whats true, others claim that it's not from leftover wood

http://www1.pref.tokushima.jp/kankyou/seikatsubunka/awalife/july01/chopsticks.htm

http://www.geocities.com/ecosig_2000/waribashi.html -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 22:41, 2004 Sep 1 (UTC)

I haven't seen anything in many years, but I clearly recall a tv program (a long time ago) saying that the wood was grown in Minnesota in the U.S. That's far from tropical rainforest; it was purpose-grown, not leftover; and it wasn't bamboo. Incidentally, although Japanese people consume unimaginably large numbers of wooden, disposable chopsticks at restaurants and when eating bentos, they also typically have reusable chopsticks in the home. And disposable knives, forks and spoons are made from petroleum.

+++++ End of Fg2's comment +++++

Both sites represents one side of the so-called old "waribashi controversy". But unfortunately, neither provides scientific or statistic basis. So I presume they just show the widespread belief. In addition, waribashi accounts for less than 1% of total wood consumption of Japan. [2] --Nanshu 03:55, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There has been a lot of uninformed debate on the use of waribashi in Japan. Here are some reliable articles: http://www.asahi.com/column/hayano/eng/TKY200411260108.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6856958/site/newsweek/ D.Pattenden, Kobe, Japan

Viet Nam

This article could benefit from a bit on Viet Nam, e.g. what kind of (Type) is used? Kokiri 22:13, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

How to hold 32 chopsticks

IMO the dark shadows in the "How to use" image make it hard to understand. At first glance it appeared to me that the first picture showed a hand holding two chopsticks (in a very odd manner) and the second more than two chopsticks! The shadows are unnecessary anyway, as they don't convey any relevant "third-dimension" information. It would be great if someone could remove the shadows from the image. - dcljr 20:50, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have edited this pic to remove the unnecessary shadows and rounded the hands to look less choppy (no pun). This is image is from the french wiki and needs to be uploaded and corrected there too. Drhaggis 19:27, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Great! Thanks... well, hang on. The numbers still have shadows on them. And they don't match the numbered list below it. Actually, the first picture doesn't seem to match any of the instructions. But other than that, it looks great. - dcljr 09:25, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I was so focused on doctoring the photo, I didnt actually read the body text. Shame on me. I have corrected the copy to have 4 steps + hints to match the updated pic. - Drhaggis 05:21, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It has been noted on the icelandic talk page for this article that the article speaks of the rarety of holding chopsticks with the left hand yet the instruction photo demos the holding of chopsticks with the left hand. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 08:26, 2004 Sep 6 (UTC)

This article does contain the line "In modern times, biases against left-handed eating are becoming less severe, and so chopsticks might be held with either hand." I am not the hand model, nor the original creator of this pic, but I am left handed and use chopsticks in the left hand. Drhaggis 03:17, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I read that part, but it would be more natural to have a the pictures show the right hand since the article mentions the bias. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 10:19, 2004 Sep 10 (UTC)

The picture is now shadow free and right handed. I also limited the width of the pic in the article to be a little neater. Drhaggis 18:59, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Vietnamese etiquette

Theres not a word about it, how does it differ from the others? -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 19:04, 2004 Sep 1 (UTC)

what I'm about to say has nothing to do with Viet Nam, but it's etiquette. I heard from a Hawaiin Japanese self-described hoppa-haole that one should never pass food person-to-person via chopsticks because it is reminiscent of some cremated-bones-death-ritual. This is clearly some regional/ethic/old wives tale sort of thing, but I've always wondered if it is true anywhere.

bamboo == wood?

This article lists all the main types of chopsticks as "wood", however bamboo is according to all other sources i've read by far the most common, does it mean to say bamboo (which is classified as wood) or does it mean "oldschool" wood (so to speak). -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 23:18, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)

Language Box

I have seen a number of language boxes lately like the one in this article ... is it really necessary to have these, especially when the article does a nice job discussing the origin of the word "chopstick" in Asian languages? This is an English-language encyclopedia, not a foreign language dictionary afterall. CES 04:08, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It can discuss it as well as having the box. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 15:09, 2004 Oct 6 (UTC)

Cantonese IPA

To Ran: Please stop removing Cantonese IPA from all articles that have it. It is your own preferencing for not using it. But then it's stated on Wikipedia that IPA should be used wherever applicable to mark pronunciations. -- 20:26, January 26, 2005, UTC

User:Ran changed the text by removing IPAs.

BEFORE

k'uai-tzu
Cantonese IPA	fɑɪ3dzɪ2
Cantonese Jyutping	faai3dzi2

AFTER

k'uai-tzu
Cantonese Jyutping	faai3zi2

Comparison

This has already been discussed to death at Talk:Political divisions of China. -- ran (talk) 20:57, Jan 26, 2005 (UTC)

Emphasizing certain words

I think there certain things that should be stressed, meaning they should be in bold, (like, for example, the word "never") so that it will draw attention.

Hygiene

For hygeine's sake, when obtaining food from the serving dish, the chopsticks are inverted the other ends to pick up the food. I've spent quite a long time in China, and I never saw this done. Was I unobservant, was I eating with barbarians, or is this wrong (as well as misspelt)? Markalexander100 04:06, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have, however, been shown to do this by Japanese... — Hippietrail 05:03, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I am restoring the text about inversion of chopsticks, with better grammar. User:Hippietrail claims to have seen it among the Japanese, and I know for a fact that the custom is practiced by some Chinese. —Lowellian (talk) 22:41, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

Apologies, I missed this thread. Please see my message under 'Chinese Etiquette and Inversion of Chopsticks'. - Descender 06:12, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

More etiquette problems: Do not stand chopsticks in a bowl of rice or anything else because the act is part of a traditional funeral rite. is mentioned both in the general and Chinese etiquette sections. An anon user indicated that this restriction is not universal, while my guide to Vietnamese culture says that it's impolite to do it, but doesn't say why. Does anyone know how universal or otherwise this is?

And to complicate things, my Vietnam book mentions using serving spoons when retrieving food from shared dishes, but doesn't mention the reverse-sticks manoeuvre. Markalexander100 06:21, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Food preparation utensils Category

I'm pretty sure chopsticks are not used in the preparation of food. They are used in the eating of food - if you have a category for that. — Hippietrail 08:24, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Other countries might be different, but Japanese cooks use chopsticks as well as a bewildering variety of other utensils. Chopsticks are useful for stirring food during boiling or frying, turning meat or fish when broiling, picking up food to place on dishes, etc. Fg2 07:04, Sep 5, 2004 (UTC)

I actually have an extremely long pair of "cooking chopsticks" at home that I use in much the same way that many cooks use metal tongs. Picked it up from Martin Yan & too much PBS as a child. Lanzetta 02:55 14 Feb 2005 (PDT)

Yes I've seen them myself now, in a Mongolian barbecue restaurant. I guess it's a secondary type of chopstick, there being no category for the primary type. Also, I have found that the Japanese name for "cooking chopsticks" is "saibashi" or "菜箸". I get the feeling that information on cooking chopsticks could be added to this article to to further improve it.

As for Chinese, all I've been able to find is "公筷" (or possibly "筷用"), but I can't read enough Chinese to be sure. Can anyone enlighten me please? — Hippietrail 10:10, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"公筷" is the pair of chopsticks that a group of people collectively use at a meal ONLY for picking up and placing food into their bowl/plates. This is practiced for sanitary reasons and ensures that the saliva on the chopstick of individual diners do not reach the shared dishes. -- Sjschen 18:50, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Chopsticks, either very long or very short, are commonly used in the preparation of food in many Chinese households and restaurants. I sure many other chopstick using cultures do the same. -- Sjschen 18:50, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

History problem

Removed the last part of this:

Scythian invaders of Canaan before and contemporary to Moses and Joshua.

The Scythian invasions are usually placed in the 7th century B.C., while Moses and Joshua are at least three centuries before that... AnonMoos 18:52, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Wood or bamboo? Environmental impact

Quote
Environmental impact
Every year 15 billion chopsticks are used and thrown away by consumers in China. To produce these 1.3 million cubic meters of wood is used. In order to encourage that people use and throw away less, as of April 2006 a five percent tax is added to the price of chopsticks. This measure is part of the first tax package in 12 years. end quote
It seems to me most "wooden" chopsticks are actually made from bamboo, at least the Chinese ones are. Environmentally, I think there's a big difference. LDHan 16:46, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, almost all the disposable chopsticks in Japanese restaurants in the US are made of wood. The kind that you have to rip apart the two halves. Since this stat is about usage in China, I'd agree that the bamboo may be a more common material. Kowloonese 00:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I checked further. Associated Press mentions 70 million cubic feet. That equals 2 million cubic meters. Some sources state that it is for 15 billion pair of chopsticks. Other sources say 45 billion pair. Apparently by wood is meant the total of poplar, birch and bamboo. --JohJak2 12:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Can someone supply the source of this information? LDHan 12:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The "Open a Mac mini" link

The "Pry open a Mac mini using several disposable chopsticks" link does not really relates to Chopsticks. The chopsticks wasn't used in any way similar to how it is used to eat. That person could have just used some other sticks instead. Shall the link be removed?

I agree. That link has nothing to do with chopsticks, it is really just how to open a mini with sticks (that happen to be chopsticks). I am deleting it.

amRadioHed 04:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Minor change

"the back of your hand should face the ceiling at all times". God, that is confusing. Replaced by "the palm of your hand should face down at all times". F15x28 01:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Chopsticks (music)

Page also needs a (disambiguation) link to Chopsticks (Music), or (Piano) or something, but I can't think of where to put it at the moment. --justfred

Disambiguation links should always go at the top of the page between the article title and the first paragraph. 12.22.250.4 18:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Chopsticks as martial arts weapons ?!

"Chopstick can be used as a throwing projectile weapon in the hands of an martial art expert. If thrown right, the chopstick can penetrate solid objects (or even flesh)". Now, this is too unbelievable to be just hanging around without a reference. F15x28 02:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

• Quite. Sounds more like a reference to a Bruce Lee movie... Someone mind taking this off? LyTe 11:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• • Actually, I expanded it. It is actually very true. A form of martial arts, called Hashijutsu, was formed around the use of defense using chopsticks. see my edit for more info. ~ Porphyric Hemophiliac § 05:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Ok, but the first reference just sounds contrived, like it's taken directly from "the big boss" or "enter the dragon" (I don't quite remember which one was it, think it was "enter"), where bruce lee is using sharpened chopsticks as projectiles. while your ref was quite interesting and seemingly based on somthing, the first is just inadequate and insufficiantly backed (name of style, prominent uses, etc.,). LyTe 20:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I can attest to that. My friend actually owns a pair of throwing chopsticks. They are specially prepared with led inside to make them heavier so they can fly better (which does make them a bit more cumbersome to eat with). The technique is basically just knife or bo shuriken throwing, nothing too complex and definitely possible. Besides, where would the idea come from in the first place? Check out shuriken. Ion seal 23:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

How about giving a separate article for Hashijutsu and pointing any discussion of throwing chopsticks as weapons to there?

No Pain

In the sentence: "A 2003 study found that regular use of chopsticks may slightly increase the risk of osteoarthritis, a painful condition where cartilage gets worn off, leading to pain in the hand joints, particularly among the elderly.[2]"

The linked article did not indicate pain in this specific case, just in general case. In fact the only mention of pain in the specific case involves them not having any.

jptdrake 01:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Eating quickly?

"the bamboo-objects for eating quickly"...I don't know how I feel about this statement. Although the morpheme "kuai" (chopstick) is similar to that of "kuai" (fast/quick), is it not much more likely that the former uses the latter for it's phonemic properties only, where the bamboo radical indicates the desired meaning?The-dissonance-reports 17:15, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you're used to using chopsticks, eating stuff can go incredibly fast. Then it's just an extention of your fingers, really. Also, if you hold up the bowl to your mouth, you can just scoop it in. :) As well, it's not unusual with those kinds of mnemonics for remembering characters and words. For example, 疑 yí doubt, has a commonly used mnemonic that goes something like this: "When a soldier meets an enemy, he don't know whether to use his dagger 匕, his arrow 矢, his spear 矛, or to use his feet 足 to run away". The character is a rough mix of these four, and the meaning is a wee bit off (probably because of historical reasons), and it probably has nothing to do with it in the first place, but it's still a good mnemonic, as is "bamboo object for eating fast". Ion seal 12:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Edits today by sagon punkid

He has a history of vandalism but he has made some good edits too, and while his edits to the vietnamese etiquette section just now seem suspicious, I don't know the subject matter enough to be sure, and I don't see anything on the talk page dealing with the issue. So instead of reverting them I'm posting here and hoping there is a regular editor who can take a look. Arker 21:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

koreans and chopsticks

i hear (1) korean parents often teach their children to throw the chopsticks with the intention of getting them stuck into their targets. this one i hear is untrue, but i'm not sure. (2) korean fathers will fling their metal chopsticks at their children if they're using their chopsticks incorrectly. this comes from a good source. Are these true? If so, they certainly belong in the article.<spetz>.72.76.248.151 03:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Mongolia

So is Mongolia a "chopstick country" as mentioned in this article? Are chopsticks traditionally used for eating in Mongolia? We were given (Chinese plastic) chopsticks at the Mongolian BBQ restaurant last week and the BBQ chef was using a giant pair of chopsticks. I've also found the Mongolian word for chopsticks and [included it on Wiktionary]. — Hippietrail 10:56, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• I am under the impression that common "Mongolian BBQ" retaurants in the US are actually Chinese-run, and serve food quite distinct from the cuisine of Mongolia, which relies on boiled meat.--Pharos 06:18, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Still doesn't answer the question. Do the majority of people in Mongolia eat with chopsticks? --71.105.21.125 01:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Left handed

Does the hand holding the chopsticks matter? What if someone holds the chopsticks in his left hand?

This is like asking "what if a left handed holds the pen in his left hand?"
I think the answer has been very obvious. -- G.S.K.Lee 21:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Using chopsticks with lefthand is, traditionally, considered to be one of the most significant social blunders that one can make. It is such a serious problem that many "old" Chinese will refuse to sit at the same table; because it is considered to be extremely unlucky.

Obviously, it is very easy for natural left-handers to use chopsticks with their "other" hand; and, as a consequence, any refusal to do so is considered to be an active and deliberate decision to be very, very rude.

However, when examined from the point of view that most folk-practices have extremely sensible origins, one needs only to have a single experience of sitting around a crowded, small meal table with a rude "persisting to use left hand" social mis-fit to understand the sensible nature of this practice.

It should also be understood that this social demand for right-handed chop-stick use has no grounds in relation to the implement.

By contrast, the demand that all who use a Chinese writing brush (maobi) is made because it is quite impossible to write Chinese correctly with such a brush using the left hand. (Old China Hand)

^Is that so? I know that in English many lefties have finer pen-menship. I would think it'd be the same for the brush. --Charizardpal 01:34, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Chopsticks Manners

From Hand to Mouth: Or, How We Invented Knives, Forks, Spoons, & Chopsticks & The Table Manners to Go With Them by James Giblin (Crowell, 1987) is a Children's books which states that crisscrossing chopsticks is not a right way to eat food. Also, stabbing food with chopsticks to hide the ability to eat with chopsticks is not the right way either. Coffsneeze 17:07, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Chopspoons ping-pong

Ok, enough.

Dear chopspoons poster - the reason that the chopspoons section is being repeatedly reverted is that it reads like an advertisement. The text is promotional. The placement (high up in the article) looks like an attempt to hijack the entire article to promote this item. If a vast majority of chopsticks users had, in fact, switched over to chopspoons as a superior alternative, this wording and placement might be appropriate. They haven't. It isn't.

I have created a section called "variations" at the bottom of the article for things like chopspoons (it also discusses forkchops and chorks). I am moving one of the pictures down there, and deleting your text. Again. FiveRings 17:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, it's still against multiple content policies. WP:NOR WP:NN WP:SOAP --Kjoonlee 17:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

If I had created any of the items myself, it might be an OR or SOAP issue. The information was not presented in a marketing tone, and the embedded links were the sources. Articles on both Forkchops and Chorks have appeared in popular magazines. This is certainly as notable as any other section in the article, and on par with coverage of similar things in similar articles (the article on dutch ovens notes that there is a special edition with the boyscout logo, for example). FiveRings 04:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Please read WP:NOR again, specifically the WP:PSTS section. If chopspoons were in a separate article, it would be deleted right away as spam, IMHO. WP:OTHERSTUFF is not a valid reason for inclusion. I'll see if the dutch ovens article needs to be fixed as well. --Kjoonlee 08:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really sure whether this article should mention these "chopforks" etc, for a start they're not chopsticks, but links to companies who make them definitely should not be in the article. LDHan 15:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Read the WP:PSTS section, and it supports the gathering of information from primary sources (as long as the resulting work is NPOV, which this was). Still don't see the problem. How do you feel about splade? FiveRings 15:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Read it again. We only allow primary sources for undeniable information from reliable sources. Also, reread WP:NN please for my answer on Splaydes. --Kjoonlee 17:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

From WP:NN - "Notability guidelines give guidance on whether a topic is notable enough to be included in Wikipedia as a separate article...The particular topics and facts within an article are not each required to meet the standard of the notability guidelines." And, once again, the website of the company that makes the product is certainly "undeniable information from reliable sources." I was making no claims about the value of the items - I was only describing their physical form. (Are you confusing me with the editor who originally put in the chopspoons info?) FiveRings 21:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Good point about NN, but I and other people don't agree that advertising/promotional websites are reliable sources. --Kjoonlee 21:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I would say they were the epitome of a reliable source. I am willing to put this to a vote, however. (Forkchops have been written up in multiple popular magazines - http://www.forkchops.com/notable.html). FiveRings 22:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

A better history of chopsticks

can anyone elaborate on when and where chopsticks were first used and how fast the common use spread? I'd like to see a timeline of choptsick use in various countries. 69.140.138.112 23:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. There's much in this article which is just common practice / common wisdom from various oriental cultures. Some is perfectly acceptable, even useful -- within a cultural context -- but Wiki is looking for citable facts. Example "Chopsticks are not used to make noise, to draw attention, or to gesticulate." Maybe according to the "Miss Manners" version of propriety, but not citable, and not what could easily be contradicted in real life. (Watch a few kung fu movies with people eating, for a start.) Alpha Ralpha Boulevard I guess what I'm getting at is that there needs to be some distinction drawn between hypothetically perfect etiquette, and the manners that everyday people would follow in natural situations. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 08:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

The same manners that are stated in the "Etiquette" section is what people SHOULD generally be followed in "natural situation", and is not really a manner of perfect etiquette. Note that actors in kung fu movies are do not necessarily follow good etiquette in order to portray the demeanor, attitude, and class of their characters. Although, it is a good thing to always cite in wikipedia, when it comes to the points on matters and etiquette, it is quite a difficult thing since these are social customs and less "facts" Sjschen 20:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree Sjschen, the Kung Fu movies were an example. I worked for years for a Chinese company in the US, and didn't observe many aspects of the etiquette behavior described in this article. In fact, a number of orientals have asked me what I was doing when I put my chopsticks on a chopstick rest (so this practice isn't close to "universal"). But I can't cite that in Wiki, while I can cite Chinese films. Also, I question the scope of the opening remark that "chopsticks etiquette is similar to general Western etiquette"...in fact, in some respects it's wholly different. E.g., The selection, use, rest, and disposing at formal Western dinners of multiple forks, knives, and spoons. It's nicely written, but I think the article is a little preachy for Western users...imagine someone new to oriental restaurants coming to this Wiki article for advice...it would intimidate them unnecessarily, because most people in the US don't follow many of these guidelines. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 23:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed this citation and the statement in the first sentence that chopsticks originated in China, because the citation does NOT say that chopsticks originated in China. That's the claim that needs substantiation. . The type of information in the History section makes a more balanced statement. Considering that's it's rather difficult to figure out what country first created a number of modern inventions, it seems wildly unlikely that conclusive evidence will ever be produced about who "invented" chopsticks.

References

Pain Relief

"Using chopsticks, however, relieves the pain in the hand after holding a computer mouse or TV remote control unit for a prolonged period of time." Can anybody source this? Seems if my wrist hurts from screwing around in Flash all day, fine-detail chopstick usage would only be more tiresome, rather than helpful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.168.71.168 (talk) 06:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what "screwing around in Flash" means. But after a long mouse work on at PC, it does relieve the pain. Using a fork, the muscles of the hand remain motionless and strained. Chopsticks make the muscles move and relax. It is about the hand. I don't know about the wrist. Gantuya eng (talk) 07:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

And perhaps you need to be experienced in using chopsticks to enjoy the pain relieving effect. If you're new, then of course you will experience even more strain. Gantuya eng (talk) 11:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who uses regular chopsticks (japanese-style), cooking chopsticks, and computer mice - cooking chopsticks are a considerable strain, and it appears that it is mostly women who develop chopstick-specific problems as they age. I don't think this is a coincidence. Table chopsticks can be a relief. Depends what you're eating. I doubt I'll be able to find a cite in English. FiveRings (talk) 19:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, using chopsticks is a healthy way. Gantuya eng (talk) 23:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

How-to and Etiquette

The How-to hold and Etiquette sections don't seem very encyclopedic. The How-to section has a nice diagram, but it doesn't seem right to have something like that in this article. Of course, mentioning the holding discrepancies between cultures is important. The Etiquette section seems superfulous, at least at the point where it digresses into distinct rules for every culture involved. A paragraph describing basic universal etiquette should suffice. z ε n ♪ 07:38, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any problems with having these sections in the article. The "How-to hold" could be improved by rewriting so it is only a description. Whilst there are basic universal etiquettes, there are also some important differences, and they should be mentioned. LDHan 10:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree, this is a violation of WP:NOT wikipedia is not a guide. This material is better hosted at, and already exists at wikihow.--Crossmr (talk) 02:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Korean name

The korean name for chopsticks is going to need a citation, it uses a spelling I've never seen and highly doubt they would be referred to as "ㅅ가락" a consonant is never left on its own, and at the least would be spelled 스가락.--Crossmr (talk) 02:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Trivia Section Removed

I have removed the trivia section. (a) Trivia sections are discouraged, (b) the reference for the single trivia point - that LCD factories are testing job applicants' chopsticks skills - was actually an article about a Japanese high school that is now teaching chopsticks classes in order to revive the custom, and (c) a cursory search on the web yielded no other reference to substantiate the trivia; thus the trivia section appeared to contain only false information and was deemed totally useless. 63.172.193.57 (talk) 19:10, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Begging bowls

Isn't hachi also used in reference to the begging bowls of Zen monks? (Mind meal (talk) 15:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC))

Remove misconception that wood chopsticks harbor bacteria (compared to plastic)

This is in response to the text in the current version saying, with regard to wood, "They can warp and deteriorate with continued use and can harbor bacteria if not properly cleaned.". This is wrong. It implies that plastic utensils, when reused, are likely to harbor fewer bacteria than wooden ones. This would seem to be logical, but actual tests have shown it to be untrue. Wood consists of cellulose, which has natural antibiotic properties. A piece of wood which consists of cut cell walls has an antibacterial property due to the chemical bonding properties of the cell walls themselves. These molecular bonds interfere with the cell division of bacteria. A piece of plastic on the other hand has only a smooth surface with no cellulose, and bacteria find many sites where they can adhere and multiply. As a result it is much harder to sterilize a plastic utensil than a wooden one by ordinary cleaning. This goes double for food preparation surfaces, including cutting boards. Natural cut wood, (if it is without lacquer), is always more resistant to bacteria than plastic. Curious Violet (talk) 01:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC) For a link see http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/docliver/Research/cuttingboard.htm Curious Violet (talk) 05:35, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

'Faux Pas in Chinese culture' picture

I'm a bit confused about this so called 'faux pas' for wearing chopsticks in your hair. This is not related to anything listed as etiquette when using chopsticks and no where is it said that chopsticks should not be used as a hair accessory. I think it's wrong to include this picture because a) where is a reference for the suggestion that putting chopsticks in your hair is a faux pas to Chinese culture and b) it is not listed in the article itself. Furthermore, although it is somewhat hard to find examples of any one using chopsticks in their hair, I found this picture: [[3]] and it seems to me, no one is chastising the girl for using chopsticks in her hair, on a religious day no less. Obviously, using 'food' type chopsticks as hair accessories may not be good manners, but I'm pretty sure if you were to use a chopstick like hair accessory it wouldn't be seen as a bad thing. Or maybe it is? But where is the citation for this?

I think the picture should be removed, or the caption changed as it is misleading and uninformed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.70.123.142 (talk) 23:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Silver chopsticks

It is believed that silver chopsticks were used in the Chinese imperial palace to detect poison (possibly metallic oxides) in the Emperor's meals; if poison was present, the chopsticks would become blackened owing to displacement reactions on the silver.

The royal palace of Joseon Dynasty also used silver spoons and chopsticks, but I think it was more a matter of luxury than poison detection. Silver gets blackened by a lot more things than poison. One prominent example is gyeran-jjim, a banchan made of steamed eggs. (The sulphur does it.) --Kjoonlee 19:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

But I have to admit that historical dramas in Korea have used the blackening of silver as plot devices; maybe Chinese dramas have done the same? --Kjoonlee 19:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Yup. In shows, when the poison tester or the emperor discovers then his silver chopsticks have darken in contact with food it is accompanied by "shocked" soundfx, extreme close-ups of the person's sweating face, and other melodramatic stuffs. Sjschen (talk) 13:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Chinese chopsticks made of plastics

The article mentioned that Chinese chopsticks are made of wood, without mentioning plastics ones are in fact getting more popular. It didn't mention ivory ones used to be popular too. -- 20:28, January 26, 2005, UTC

chopsticks (or any bowl, dish, etc) made of wood that is cleaned and reused is dangerous to use because they are unsterile and nasty bacteria can live in the little cracks and crevices. In many places in the world, including Asia, it is unlawful to reuse wood this way in restaurants and other intitutional food settings. So, this is why you increasingly see plastic and disposable cheap wood.

The above statement has no basis in fact. Multiple studies have shown that wood has natural anti-bacterial properties, unlike plastic. See for example: http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/docliver/Research/cuttingboard.htm 216.223.143.38 (talk) 17:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

You guys mean Hong Kong popularized melamine chopsticks anyway and yes they are becoming more popular. In major cities and overseas, especially in restaurants that regularly cater to Hong Kong, Taiwan, or foreign patrons melamine is the preferred material. BUT and this is a big but, most Chinese restaurants that cater only to Chinese prefer wooden and/or bamboo chopsticks for their better grip and natural anti-bacterial properties. Also for the more traditional feel and cheaper manufacture.

Chopsticks coverage from the California Academy of Sciences

Here is an short but informative outline from the California Academy of Sciences, if anyone wants to implement it. — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 20:02, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'm not sure if this passes WP:RS...the site is atached to an educational institution, but the site itself doesn't appear to have any information on who wrote it or how it is maintained. Does anyone have any thoughts? rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 22:17, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Obvious Citations

It is generally accepted that chopsticks spread from China to other East Asian countries, where they also became the main eating utensils.

I feel that there can be some more elaboration on the different Chinese myths of chopstick creation, which can feature various sources - here it would be more appropriate to cite sources. The Confucius claim also warrants a citation, so I let that one stay up.

Facial (talk) 22:29, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Etymology / Vietnamese

The translation is missing -- just spaces. Is this just my rendering or what? Thanks.--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

You must just be missing fonts, I see it fine. There's some quoc ngu and some Han characters. Both are pretty common, though, so I'm surprised there would be problems. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 06:03, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

My end. Okay. Thanks for the reply. --Anna Frodesiak (talk) 07:05, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Dubious Confucius quote

I searched Analects in several translations and could not find the quote which I apologetically removed, which is dubious in any case since ancient Chinese did not use knives at the table. ch (talk) 16:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Depends on how ancient is "ancient" and who of these ancients one would refer to as "Chinese". Sjschen (talk) 20:03, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Thailand

I believe that chopsticks were used in Thailand until King Rama V travelled to Europe in the 19th century after which he introduced eating with spoon and fork.

I've finally found some references to Thai chopsticks that say something other than that they are not used there: Eating the Thai Way states that they are used for eating noodles. Other sites say they are used only for eating soup. In thai they are called "ตะเกียบ" ("ta kiap", "ta-giab", "dhà'gìap", etc). — Hippietrail 09:55, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, the reason why most sites say chopsticks are not used in Thailand is because it is not used. Traditionally, Thais ate with their right hands (direct picking -- requires a bit of practice) until the western spoons and forks came in. In fact, the practice of eating by hand can still be found in rural part of the country, especially in the Northeastern part. Yes, chopsticks have been used for some (not all) of the Chinese-style food, mainly noodles. This is mere Chinese influence and personally I believe it came with immigration of Chinese people. The situation is similar to Western countries these days where people start using chopsticks when eating oriental food -- It is limitted to that particular type of food and it would not be correct to say that traditionally westerner eat with chopsticks. --Jakris 05:30, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As a Thai; I use chopsticks since I was a child. Thai people always use

1. Spoon and fork for almost all Thai food
2. Soup spoon for soup
3. Chopsticks and soup spoon for noodles (both Thai and Chinese noodle) and also with Chinese or Japanese food
4. Hands mostly on Isan food such as Larb or Som tam

manop 06:35, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I have been to many thai restaurants, have an uncle that lived in Thailand for years, and now have an aunt from Thailand. Manop's description is pretty accurate - I would not say that chopsticks are the main utensil in Thailand, unless eating certain foods. 70.51.127.179 04:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to add that I too have used chopsticks in Thailand, and they always seem to available. This article should be updated to reflect the use of chopsticks in Thailand. Paul Davidson (talk) 12:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, when I visited Thailand, I went to several local restaurants where the only people who ask for (and use) chopsticks there are... ehm... foreign tourists. All the locals used spoons and forks. 216.223.143.38 (talk) 17:22, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

When available I prefer to use chopsticks for takeaway Thai food regardless of local custom. The forks & spoons generally proffered are cheap, plastic and useless. Disposable bamboo chopsticks however are excellent chopsticks. (I'm more circumspect in an actual Thai restaurant though the pewter and brass cutlery frequently on offer is pretty but uncomfortable to use).124.149.145.184 (talk) 11:34, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

IS there any connection to Confucius?

At the place I went to today, the wrapper for the chopsticks contained a quote purportedly from Confucius that chopsticks were preferred over knives since knives were considered tools of violence, and should not be used when dining. However, the number of random statements that are falsely attributed to Confucius simply because most westerners have never heard of any other Chinese philosophers is staggering. (It actually seems harder to find a genuine Confucius quote.) So the quote on the wrapper is dubious at best, especially since it's in English. It does say that these are made in China, though that of course does not necessarily add any legitimacy to the quote. (In fact, given the amount of counterfeit goods being manufactured there these days, it may make the claim even more dubious.) Just wondering if anyone can come up with any moderately reliable source connecting chopsticks and Confucius - or at least the statement about not using knives to eat as a form of non-violence, even if it was someone else who said it. Lurlock (talk) 05:54, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

In the Japanese Wikipedia entry for chopsticks there is the sentence "その後、孔子が「君子厨房に近寄らず」（君子遠庖廚）の格言に基づき、厨房や屠畜場でしか使わない刃物の、食卓上での使用に反対した。" which roughly translates as saying Confucius was opposed to the use of knives when eating because knives are used in the kitchen (including for killing animals), and there is a proverb 'gentlemen/men of virtue don't go near the kitchen'. I can't see a clear source for this on the page, but it lends weight to the idea there is some kind of source, even if the English version commonly given seems a bit misleading.--Rsm77 (talk) 07:40, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Different ways of holding chopsticks

As I understand it, there are actually several different styles for holding chopsticks - a Korean friend learned to use them "wrong" and his parents called him a barbarian.

Some description of alternate styles (or at least a note that there are such) should be put in by someone who knows how to explain it.

One way to do it is to hold the chopsticks in an "X". You shorten the gap between the lower part of the sticks to pick up food. However, I don't think such a description is really necessary. --Kjoonlee 03:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I agree. I, a westerner, learned to do it as an adult and I do it pretty much as is shown in the current article. However, I often notice in restaurants that many "real Asians" hold the sticks almost parallel and quite close together, and they use a very elegant "rolling" motion that separates the sticks and grabs the food without a lot of chopstick-angle-changing; or with something like a "jaws-opening" movement rather than a "pincer opening" movement. I would like to learn this way, it looks cooler.

I have also noticed a lot of Chinese people hold their chopsticks in this manner, although I do not think it's elegant nor cool. Actually I think it's not the "proper" method, I have tried it and it seems to me to be less efficient and offers less control. LDHan 14:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

---

When attending a very basic course on cultural differences, a chinese quest speaker told us that chopsticks should be held at the middle in China. Holding them at top signals feelings superiority (in a rude way) and holding them at bottom is "the way of beggars". So in the how-to-use section might be in need of correction etiquette-wise.--MK

Not very likely, IMHO. You need to hold them at the top for increased reach. (You do need to leave a small margin for comfort, though.) --Kjoonlee 03:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I've heard a different "meaning" stating that holding them at the top(far) means that one will be married far and marry someone from far, while holding them near the bottom(close) means the vice-versa Sjschen 04:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

---

In the photo of long chopsticks being used, one chopstick is between the little finger and the ring finger, which is strange to me. I am Japanese, and I don't hold chopsticks that way, and cannot find a photo showing the similar usage on the Net. That chopstick should be on the ring finger. But I am not sure if such usage is incorrect. Anyway I think it is better to use a photo showing an ordinary usage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.124.130.225 (talk) 07:10, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the heads-up. I agree the image is incorrect. The edit was made by User:Oaktree b[4], I reverted the edit. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:52, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Latest edit, necessary clean-up

This article was slightly messy, had lots of POV and unnecessary detail (i.e., it didn't need a paragraph about rice). I have done the best I can. My citation additions are: Aero, Rita (1980) Things Chinese, pages 48-49 and this[5].--Djathinkimacowboy ^SPEAK! 10:28, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Etymology - English slang?

I wonder whether it is worth mentioning that there is a likely derivation through the English slang term for mouth - chops. In the 1811 dictionary of the vulgar tongue (written in the 18th century), the term "chopstick" is defined in slang as a fork, a means of feeding the chops. I would suggest this as at least an alternative etymology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bluefloyd1 (talk • contribs) 12:55, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

It's colorful and useful... find a verifiable citation.--Djathinkimacowboy ^SPEAK! 10:29, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

This is not an essay...

So, can we have less drama (POV and OR) with Korean traditions? Either cite the sources or quit making the edits, and recall the rule of 3RR. It would be delightful to have citations for the Korean traditions, but it isn't necessary to keep repeating the entire tradition each time you see the word "Korean".--Djathinkimacowboy ^{what now?!} 13:33, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Asian utensils

Knife for cutting meat and bread; spoon for scooping soup; forks for picking up.

Were chop sticks a side utensil or the only utensil? The common image is that these nations only used chop sticks. Was it true?

-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 (talk) 07:57, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Somewhat. Soup spoons were used in some areas, but not just for soup; if it were just soup, people usually raise the bowl to drink. Soup spoons are used when there was soup and something in the soup that is not easy to just drink--like, noodles, meat, etc. Even so, the item in the soup would be something bite-sized usually. It was just difficult to get whatever was in the soup, and the soup itself, in a good ratio to taste and enjoy the food together. So, people would put the item in the spoon, and also get a bit of broth in the spoon, then eat that.

There aren't really the equivalent of dinner knives at the table, in Asian culture. Possibly because in China, to give a knife meant you were asking the person to commit suicide by order. So, perhaps having knives at the dinner table was deemed inappropriate..? Whatever the reason, dinner knives never really seemed to evolve in Asian culture. Chopsticks can be used for cutting soft foods that are big and blobular. Like, ba-wan. A ba-wan takes up a whole bowl basically (because they were made using bowls as the containers). But, to eat it without cutting it is messy. So, what people do is they make an "x" and as they force the "v" part of the "x" closer to the tip, the chopsticks function like scissors and will cut. Cutting done with chopsticks is usually done at one time, before that person starts to eat their food. It's not done as-you-go. So, in the case of ba-wan, people will make an asterisk pattern, or sometimes a checkerboard pattern type of cut, and then pour sauce on it, and start eating.

In Chinese cooking, most things are bite-sized so as not to make a huge mess when you try to eat them with chopsticks. There are few exceptions.

Spoons were used. The reason spoons are used is so that you can get a good ratio of noodles to veggies to soup to meat. So in this large soup spoon, you have sort of a representative sample, a good mixture, of whatever is in the actual bowl itself.

192.33.240.95 (talk) 20:28, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Length of Korean chopsticks

Also, the page states that Korean chopsticks are short. I always remember Korean chopsticks as being the most difficult to use because they are long and thin. Hippietrail 07:56, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

• You're holding them sideways. - Nunh-huh 00:41, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In common households, I believe chopsticks are longest in China, and shortest in Japan. I'm going to change the article to say that Korean chopsticks are medium in length. Kjoonlee 05:54, 2004 Dec 6 (UTC)

Japanese chopsticks often vary in length - the eldest gets the longest. And, you should see Japanese cook's sticks - half a meter long sometimes! JohnSankey 08:55, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Cook's sticks are different. Cooking utensils are different from eating utensils; just as a fire poker isn't a fork, so too, the cooking chopsticks aren't considered in the same category as personal chopsticks. The cooking chopsticks are usually longer than serving chopsticks, and serving chopsticks are sometimes longer than personal chopsticks.

192.33.240.95 (talk) 20:33, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

A plea to all editors

In view of this[6], it is clearly wise for us to discuss what structure and content the sections should have- there seems to be confusion, though it is slight and I see no real problem. I think everyone is editing and doing their best on the article, but we're not touching base here on the talk page. And that can lead to edit wars.--Djathinkimacowboy 04:03, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Once again, from the top. Please discuss issues here on the talk page before editing. We need to avoid all this new information I keep seeing, about how the cooking is done, all about the rice. That problem has appeared on this article before. This[7] as an example shows how WP:TRIVIA can overtake an article's proper function. Let's have proper discussion here on the talk page and let consensus be reached about this sort of thing and its applicability to the history and modern general usage of chopsticks.--Djathinkimacowboy 04:29, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Problem with Chinese calligraphy and term?

In light of this[8] ... If there is some sort of argument about putting the Chinese/Japanese calligraphy and translation of the term up in the lead, please see Geisha.--Djathinkimacowboy 22:25, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

What does that edit have to do with "calligraphy" (by which I assume you mean Chinese characters)?

Also, keep in mind that chopsticks are used in numerous countries, they're not exclusive to China and Japan. rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:40, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I've wrote "undue" as argument, but you reverted because it was unclear according to your edit summary. Fine by me, so I repeated it with a longer explanation [9], thinking you did not understood. However, you reverted it again with a blunt "no, you're wrong"-type response and ironically no argument as to why (previous link). Here we are. You tell me, is there some sort of argument? From time to time, I see undue foreign words in lead sentences or—what I like to call—a dictionary entry, which is counter-productive to place there. I'll expect the entry to get longer and clutter as many do, because undue weight will get "balanced" that way. Maybe with Tagalog, Korean, or something. It's WP:UNDUE, because chopsticks are relevant to many cultures, so using concise wording in English is favorable in the lead. It's redundant with the etmology section right below and the language infobox to the right.

On another note: If there is some sort of argument about not putting the Chinese/Japanese character and translation of the term up in the lead, please see Tea. Right back at you, not really, just goes to show that this makes little sense as what culture-specific and global topics goes. I don't see the Japanese in this article either (not that it would make it significantly less undue), I do see your unilateral edits of adding the characters, Chinese pinyin, and a bad literal translation, but now with the added "in Chinese" in front of it. --Cold Season (talk) 02:09, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I can see you have more experience at this.--Djathinkimacowboy 13:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Hardly experienced, maybe stubborn in view. I had done a few similar edits, thus enough time to think about it in passing. Sorry for the tl;dr-ish scrutinizing. --Cold Season (talk) 15:56, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

No, you were right. It was a good catch and in time, I did see your point. And in fact, the lead actually looks much better.--Djathinkimacowboy 16:19, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Acquired skill?

In practice, their use is an acquired skill that can take some mastery.

Actually, I was using chopsticks competently within two days of my arrival in Korea. After a week, I could manipulate them as well as any Korean. Has anyone had a similar chopstick experience, or am I simply gifted? :)

well, gifted maybe, but you might also be un-self-aware (it's not a crime, and it's not unusual; it's actually a gift in that it makes you confident) I find it very hard to believe that if I were to witness you that I would agree that you were a master.

Also, I notice this article talks a lot about sharing a Chinese meal in the United States. This should probably be moved elsewhere; this is an article about chopsticks themselves, and the "hygenic problems" are probably only problems in Western cultures. Over here, everyone just picks out of common dishes with their chopsticks. --Stephen Gilbert

"sharing a common bowl that everyone picks out of" is absolutely unhygenic, West or East. The fact that you don't usually get sick from it, or that the sickness you get is usually brief, or even the possibility that getting many pathogens is actually on average good for the immune system in the long term ... none of this changes the fact that if you are sharing a bowl, your chance of getting that nasty variant of e coli that kills people, etc. I.e. to sum up, "hygenic problems" does not mean "etiquette problems"

i think "absolutely unhygenic" is going a little too far. using dry paper to wipe after going to the toilet (instead of antibacterial wipes, or at least water and paper) is horrifically unhygenic, but it falls within the bounds of accepted behaviour in western countries such as the united states —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.54.96.187 (talk) 14:53, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

You are not alone, learned to use them in a few days also, but it does say mastery which is not the same as being really good. -- Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 18:44, 2004 Sep 1 (UTC)

Another test is to think about whether a phrase like In practice, their use is an acquired skill that can take some mastery. would appear on an article on, say, the fork or the spoon. I'm not really sure the sentence belongs in the article, but that might just be me. CES 04:08, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It took me a year to learn to clean a rice bowl to the last grain. That's a skill that a Chinese child has usually mastered by the end of their third year - my Chinese friends congratulated me telling me that I was now 3 years old! They used their sticks to pick out of common dishes, but didn't stick them in their mouth, rather they 'threw' the pieces into their mouth from a short distance away. JohnSankey 08:51, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

That's actually because you usually wouldn't be eating on your own until about that age and we kids learn in about a week. Mastery takes maybe that year? I know I struggled with some foods until I got used to it the first year but the real problem is wrist and finger strength. Try picking up a pound of wet noodles not that easy but adults do it every time they mean to serve noodles. I would say the mastery is the acquired skill and learning how to use chopsticks is like learning how to use a spoon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.213.212 (talk) 16:34, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Chinese Etiquette and Inversion of Chopsticks

I've removed the following line from the Chinese Etiquette section:

 For the sake of hygiene, when obtaining food from the serving dish, the chopsticks may be inverted to the other ends to pick up the food.

I believe this is a confusion with Japanese etiquette [10]. This line was probably inspired by this article [11] As far as I know, there is no such thing in Chinese etiquette.

It is common to pick food directly from the common dish, and not to mention, picking food for others without inverting chopsticks.

- Descender 05:59, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Really? I did this too at home (particularly when no common chopsticks are used and guests are invited) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 06:16, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

To my experience only common chopsticks are used to serve this purpose.. Using the other ends of the chopsticks where your finger holds to get food doesn't sound hygenic to me either.. :-| — Instantnood 08:17, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Actually this is not an uncommon practice in my experience, especially in restaurants when you don't want to wait for the waiter to fetch a common pair. (btw I'm from Hong Kong) Since the original wording says "may", I don't see a problem with it. Turidoth 19:37, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I was out with my Chinese girlfriend and her family this past weekend and they used the top ends of the chopsticks to take food off of the serving plate. When I asked about the cleanliness of the top end, it was pointed out to me that people hold the chopsticks in the middle so the tops are clean. --Beirne 04:49, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

this is almost unknown in korean etiquette as well. koreans use the chopsticks normally to pick up the food from the center banchan plates. the etiquette list seriously needs to be corrected, cleaned up, shortened, duplicates combined. Appleby 16:45, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Judging by the disenting opinions here, this isn't a clearly set etiquette. Personally, unless you're eating rice or something, just picking up a scrap of meat from the plate with the bottom of your chopsticks shouldn't matter since your chopsticks are normally only touching the food they're going to remove anyway.

---

It's not unhygienic. You don't hold the chopsticks at the back TIP of the chopsticks. You hold the chopsticks somewhere at the back 1/2 but not the actual back TIP. You pick up food with the back tip of the chopsticks when there are no serving-chopsticks available. 192.33.240.95 (talk) 20:37, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The problem that's coming up is that we're going through Chinese etiquette like it's all one big set of rules and it isn't. Just like we're distinguishing Japanese and Vietnamese or Korean etiquette, an accurate view of Chinese etiquette needs to be sectioned off in respect to all the different Chinese cultures in China. For instance, Hong Kong etiquette is where you'd normally find a common serving chopstick. In the north, they more often use the inverted chopstick method. Shanghai used to follow the north when serving guests in courtesy but now with the introduction of many outsider groups and foreigners, it has adopted the Hong Kong common chopstick. Most restaurants will not provide a common serving chopstick unless requested. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.213.212 (talk) 18:22, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Why do those countries use chopsticks

Does anyone know why those 4 countries use chopsticks but all countries south (India, Bangladesh, Pakistan) of them use their hands traditionally? This got brought up at lunch today by a Bangladeshi coworker. I have no idea other than maybe the himalyays stopped them. -Dave

I don't but I think a history section, about when chopsticks developed and why they developed in the country's they did, and why different countries use different types (ie rounded vs pointed) would be a great addition.

Also most of the countries of Southeast Asia: Laos, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Cambodia, probably Burma too? — Hippietrail 01:38, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

It's probably related to curry and rice. The rice cultivar used in curries is "indica." They're long-grained and non-sticky. Rice used in Korea and Japan is "japonica." They're short-grained and sticky. (I don't know about China, but stir-fried rice seemed long-grained to me.)

Sticky rice is easy to pick up and eat with chopsticks or spoons. Non-sticky rice with curry is eaten with bare hands.(I don't know much about how stir-fried rice is eaten in China.) --KJ 05:39, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why India and such countries use their hands to eat, but I do know that at least in China food is eaten with sticks and not a fork or a knife because Confucius said they remind too much of butchering (and I guess he was not the only one). This needs a better look, I do not know if this is why they started doing so, and whether it is 100% correct.

1)The reason has to do with Confucious preferences and the idea of not bringing a knife to the dinner table. (A place of peace.) I'd write more but I'll leave the details and citations to someome better aquainted with Confucian ideology.

2) On a secound point, I believe that the passage about Chinese chopsticks being of different lengths (longer) compared with shorter Korean and Vietmanize chopsticks is unfounded and should be removed. In my experience the length of the chopsticks has not been tied to any culture. There is no citation to support this idea either. --~~charizardpal~~

You really got me there with this question pretty much the same as it may get you by asking "Why do westerners use fork and knife". I am not sure if charizardpal is right or not but I believe Kjoonlee surely gets a point here. It must have something to do with our dietary pattern. I read somewhere a thesis by some professor which suggests that chopsticks might be developed from tree branches which our ancestors used to turn over toasted meat. But that can merely be a theory. No one can know for sure why we Chinese use chopsticks to eat. Chrisliu (talk) 12:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

This is actually a very good question, and no doubt very difficult to answer. The gastronomic history of China actually did go through a period where eating with hands is the norm. Some early "Chinese" states (before Shang) also flirted with the use of knives and forks. However for one reason or another the two sticks method of chopstick use became the "norm" quite early (around zhou). In Han dynasty in fact, the use of chopsticks with a long metal/bone spoon became rather ubiquitous in the higher levels of society. This habit disappeared sometime between Han and Tang dynasty and the use of the long metal spoon was either removed or replaced with a small porcelain version. Actually, many Chinese historians would argue that chopstick use actually began several thousands of year ago, well before the "very first" dynasty (Xia) of China. This claim may be founded due to recent (within the last few decades) excavations of neolithic settlements and grave in which long un-barbed pointed sticks where found in pairs with eating implements (bowls, flasks, dishes, etc.) along with individuals of either sex. Maybe I'll write something about this in the history section... Sjschen (talk) 19:59, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

China first invented the chopstick after the invention of the fork by the Qijia culture and subsequently replaced it during the Shang Dynasty. The reasoning was both for etiquette and practicality. More could be done with chopsticks than forks given that the basis of chopsticks were that they were extensions of the hand. India and the asian cultures it influenced developed differently and separately from the Shang Dynasty and the Qijia culture so those cultures only started being introduced to utensils like the chopstick and fork and knife once foreign settlers began inserting themselves in the population.

I just wanted to add that the idea that chopsticks got popular because Asians eat short grain rice and not long grain is a myth. Just like it was said above Chinese fried rice is made to be dry and good fried rice is supposed to have distinguishable grains of easily separated rice. Doesn't stop anybody from eating them comfortably with chopsticks and it has nothing to do with shoveling. First hand experience right here. I eat lemon rice all the time with chopsticks. I find it makes less of a mess than trying to scoop up the loose grains with a fork. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.213.212 (talk) 18:48, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

How to use a fork

We need an article on how to use a fork. --User:Juuitchan

Why are you bringing this up on a chopsticks page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.213.212 (talk) 18:52, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Different Chopsticks

Sorry I tried to remember the section title and right as I was typing I lost it. The picture on this page about chopstick styles between cultures paints a bad picture. Chinese chopsticks aren't always square with blunt tips. Here. http://chineseculture.about.com/library/weekly/aa_chopsticks02a.htm You can see on the picture in this article that one pair is clearly a pointed tip and the other pair is the blunt tip. China uses both. Also melamine is only common in Hong Kong restaurants and is steadily reaching other Chinese restaurants, but wood and bamboo are still much more popular in the home. The Japanese also have adult chopsticks that have ridges at their tips. http://www.ichizen.com/chopsticks/images/cstix19981225f.jpg

In a previous section there was also a comment — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.213.212 (talk) 19:03, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

This article used to have a photo showing the types of tips because there are several different types of tips. One problem was someone kept sticking in photos of only Japanese chopsticks.Djathinkimacowboy 01:14, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Etiquette sections require citation

I understand hearsay may be a part of "common knowledge" however some of the "forbidden uses of chopsticks" seem to stem from the particular author's methodology of eating with family.

I would request that all lines on the proper etiquettes be tagged with citations as the current information can not be deemed to be canonical by Wiki standards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.87.204.58 (talk) 17:48, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Seconded. But let us not remove any of the information just because of that. A tag is added there showing it needs citations. I'll try to get them all. If we lose that information, the article will be missing a great deal of information. It is hard to tell without citations in, but that list is not "hearsay", nor is it just individual family tradition..Djathinkimacowboy 01:16, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Chopstick?

Why no discussion of the etymology of the English word chopstick? Certainly it can't be a direct translation, can it?

I think there was a brief bit about it being from a Chinese pidgin, but it must have been removed. It didn't have a citation, you see. --Kjoonlee 12:16, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

According to Merriam-Webster Online and the OED, the chop in chopstick seems to come from a Chinese-English pidgin. "Chop" means quick, and the first syllable of 筷子 is pronounced like 快 (which means quick) so it fits. --Kjoonlee 12:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

BTW, chop can currently be found in the British phrase "chop chop," meaning "hurry hurry." --Kjoonlee 12:22, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Cool. I always got the impression that it was some horrid word made up by American railway managers during the 1800s. BJason

Several comments. I lived recently in Bangkok for 3 years. When I would ask for chopsticks when eating with Thais, they would ask "Why, you are not Chinese and we are not eating Chinese?" It bothered them. They eat with a spoon, and use the fork to push the food onto the spoon. Try it, it's very convient. Second comment. I transfered to Hong Kong from Bangkok. One of the first things I was told was to NEVER stick chopsticks straight up in food. It looks like the joss stick arrangements used for funerals, so it is a 'bad omen' for the one who has prepared your meal. As an aside, the Bank Of China building on HK Island has two tall 'chopsticks' atop, pointing at the sky. This is looked on as their way of wishing 'death' upon their competition, who by the way, are next door.

Note: The above comment is unsigned, it appears deliberately, and should be "taken from whom it comes". Please remember to sign your posts.~©Djathinkimacowboy 07:13, 15 October 2012 (UTC)