Talk:Chinese Democracy/GA3

GA Review

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Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 10:53, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Crikey, has it been ten years already since this was released? It was a standing joke at one point that it would never happen - where does the time go? I do confess I am not a particularly big fan of Guns 'n' Roses, and my main interest in them recently has been watching video clips of Axl Rose stopping the show and heckling some idiot as I think they're funny.

Anyway, I'm happy to review this. I see a lot of work has gone into it recently, and I suspect there's a campaign to get this to FA at some point, which is no bad thing. I'll have a proper re-read of the article now and check the sources, and come back with detailed comments hopefully later today. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:53, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Lead

* "In the mid-1990s, amid creative and personal differences...." - for context, it would help explain who these people are (ie: founding members or people playing on the last studio release)

Reworded, though I think it could be done better. I'm not the best at re-wording stuff (the opening has gone like 20 different variations from copy editors and other editors)

* "it was delayed and completely re-recorded in 2000" - but it wasn't released until eight years later, so recording could have only restarted in 2000

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Having read through the article, I understand what "re-recorded" means in this instance

Background

What makes tsort.info a reliable source?:

Replaced with a better source.

What makes www.heretodaygonetohell.com a reliable source?

Its been around for 22 years and has accurate re-publications of interviews, timelines of things, ect. A lot of the info is not readily available (ie, print sources, websites that no longer exist). I'm not the most up-to date on what's considered a reliable source, but most of the info taken from the website is reprinting of previous published material, which I think is allowed (please correct me if I'm wrong)

I had a look in WP:RSN and it's not mentioned anywhere. I don't think this source will fly at FAC, but for a GA, provided the reference clearly states it is an interview, and specifies exactly where the original source is, we would be able to trust it. I do know several fansites produce facsimiles of old magazine and journal pieces, and provided the original reference is stated, the source is verifiable as being factually accurate and not just made up. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:22, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

"however, bassist Duff McKagan said the band "was so stoned at that point that nothing got finished"" - the Time Off citation does not seem to work, so I cannot verify this quotation.

I'll look into finding an alternate source. The archive worked when I added it way back when, but it's not working now, so idk what's going on with it.

"Guitarist Slash criticized singer Axl Rose for running the band "like a dictatorship"" - the source says he said it seemed like a dictatorship, which is not quite so strong.

fixed wording.

"Multiple musicians were auditioned, including guitarist Zakk Wylde, and drummers Dave Abbruzzese and Michael Bland." - do we need four citations to cite one sentence?:

fixed.

What makes audiohead.net a reliable source?

Not 100% sure but it's a site that has many interviews with notable artists, and the source used as an interview with Vrenna.

What makes providermodule.com a reliable source?

I'm not seeing that URL in any of the sources.

It's citing the sentence "Former Nine Inch Nails drummer Chris Vrenna worked with the band for a few months shortly afterward." Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:23, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

that's weird, control+F failed me earlier. anyways, that's a reprint of an interview Vrenna did that's lost to time. -RF23

"At the recommendation of Freese, former Replacements bassist Tommy Stinson joined in early 1998,[30] followed by second keyboardist and multi-instrumentalist Chris Pitman" - according to the Blabbermouth source, Pitman was already in the band when Stinson joined.

reworded

"By the end of 1998...." - from here to the end of the paragraph is unsourced.

sourced.

Recording

"Early in the recording process, the band was reported" - by whom?

fixed.

"Early in the recording process, the band was reported to have 60 songs in development." - the source given doesn't seem to verify this; I can see a reference to "60 guitars" but not 60 songs

fixed

"In February 1997, electronic producer Moby entered talks to produce" - I'm confused by this. Who was Moby talking to, did he actually produce anything, or was this just an idea thrown around? This needs more context.

Reworded

"I think the record had turned into a real labor. He was stuck and didn’t know how to proceed, so he was avoiding it." - the Daily Mail is banned on Wikipedia where prose relating to living people are concerned. This source is used for several paragraphs in this section and needs to be replaced. Mick Wall is also known for being a controversial journalist whose opinion is not particularly reliable enough for a GA (and would be tossed out at a Featured Article review).

Is there some discussion anywhere about Wall in regards to reliability? All I know is he's been doing this since the 70's and has written a biography of Guns N' Roses and Axl Rose before. I know daily mail is generally considered unreliable but considering Wall's history with the group and Rose and the music industry, I think this is a case where it can be used. Can you point me to problems with the article if there are any that prevent it from being used? Either way, I replaced several sources of it with other ones. The first Youth quote, the Geffen sales estimate and the tidbit about listening parties are all that remain from the article now.

Wasn't Wall responsible for "Get in the Ring"? Anyway, if the source has been replaced then that's sorted. I've tagged a few instances where the Daily Mail is still being used. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:30, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

removed and/or replaced everything that remained unsourced.

What makes Allstarmag.com a reliable source?

Not really sure, so removed & replaced with something else

"I came in, to start, making sounds for Robin Finck...." - this quotation is overly long and needs to be trimmed or paraphrased

Trimmed.

"By this time Guns N' Roses had recorded over 30 songs" ... "The sessions produced 38 recorded songs" - this needs condensing, it's either "over 30" or "38" but having both together clashes.

removed the Wall source.

"In late November 1999, Rose played several tracks..." - the rest of this paragraph is unsourced :

Sourced

"Rose said in 1999 that the band had recorded enough material for a double album" - the source says "I wouldn't say [emphasis mine] it's like, you know, that we recorded a double album, or that we have all of our scraps to be the second one."

Reworded to two albums, Rose mentions here "The second leans probably a little more to aggressive electronica with full guitars, where the first one is definitely more guitar-based." and in other spots the intent to have two (or possibly more) albums from the "Chinese" sessions.

What makes metalunderground.com a reliable source?

Found the original article & replaced the metalunderground url.

What makes htgth.com a reliable source?

Explained above

What makes gnrevolution.com a reliable source?

The source used is a reprint of an audio interview Beaven did. Original URL is dead.

What makes alternativenation.net a reliable source?

the article includes a reprint of an interview Fortus did with Social Magazine. It's listed as unreliable on WP:ALBUM/SOURCE but with the note "Still usable as a WP:PRIMARY source for interviews, or when covered by other reliable sources (though it is preferred if you use the other reference that covers said content)." There's another use if it later on for the info about the song Silkworms, they seem to be the only website that actually reported on that, info can be deleted if necessary.

Might be easiest to find another source for "Rose's vocal parts were recorded in less than a week" and then remove the other instance. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:12, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Done.

"Commentators suggested the release" - if this is the opinion of Rolling Stone, just say that:

Fixed.

The link criteria says "readers will expect this type of media in the article". I really don't think that can be justified in this instance

removed.

"Shortly afterwards, Josh Freese left to join...." - why do you need five citations to cite one sentence?

trimmed the sources down.

"very digital sounding, there wasn’t a lot of air moving, they were electronic sounding" - the source given does not appear to have this quotation.

The full quote is from the video, the article just has a few brief points. Not sure if it's still there, but a full transcript can be found here

"Mantia had the parts transcribed, then played them from a teleprompter before trying the songs again in his style" - the source given does not mention a teleprompter

Same as above

"In the early 2000s, composers Marco Beltrami and Paul Buckmaster...." - the source given doesn't seem to have this date

removed the date, can't find concrete timeline on that.

"I met with Axl and he played me these songs..." - the quotation here is over-long, can it be trimmed?

Done.

"These fucking people are getting paid shitloads of money..." - as above

Done

What makes www.undercover.com.au a reliable source?

Reprint of stuff form the official Guns N' Roses website, which has been lost to time.

"What really happened was the record company stood back and left...." - this quotation is far too long and is a borderline copyvio, can it be paraphrased?:

reworked, trimmed. I'm not the best at trimming quotes so a second check would be nice if i did it right. Is there any documentation here on wiki or elsewhere on tips for paraphrasing quotes like that?

The quotation from the statement about Buckethead needs to be trimmed

trimmed

"By 2005, Geffen had removed Chinese Democracy from its release schedule and withdrawn funding, stating:" - the statement is from 2004, not 2005

fixed

"Around that time, manager Merck Mercuriadis said the album was close to complete" - the source doesn't seem to say this

From the article "“The ‘Chinese Democracy’ album is very close to being completed,” Merck Mercuriadis, the chief executive officer of Sanctuary Group, which manages Mr. Rose, wrote in a recent statement

What makes bravewords.com a reliable source?

Brave Words & Bloody Knuckles is a famous metal magazine/site edited by Martin Popoff.

What makes thespaghettiincident.com a reliable source? :

replaced it with the original link, an interview with Bumblefoot.

What makes MetalFan.ro a reliable source?

Not sure but it's an interview with Bumblefoot.

What makes rockmymonkey.com a reliable source?

Same as above, but with Sebastian Bach

"and conductor Suzy Katayama also recorded parts" - there is a [when] tag at the end of this sentence

Removed. There doesn't seem to be information available as to when, only that she did it.

"....and Tim Palmer" - why do you need five citations to verify this?

fixed

discogs.com is not directly a reliable source - cite the original works it refers to using (Media notes). {{cite AV media notes}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

fixed

Release and promotion

"followed by "Street of Dreams" in March 2009. - this sentence is unsourced

fixed

Style and composition

This is personal preference, but for sections of album articles describing the songs (eg: Led Zeppelin IV, The Beatles (album)), I've preferred putting the prose together without sub-headings for each song, except to split into sides of an LP (which doesn't really apply here).

Re wrote back into prose.

What makes hem.passangen.se a reliable source?

fixed with a different source

What makes metalinjection.net a reliable source?

It's included on the List of reliable sources

"one shooter's preference for the Guns song Brownstone to no avail" - the second citation here appears to be to a forum post (same source re-used later on in this section)

The forum source is a direct link to the chats Axl Rose had with various forums. There are transcripts that can be posted instead if the primary link is frowned upon.

Might be better to do that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:13, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

::::Fixed.

"The song features the lyrics “What this means to me...." - why is this important to mention here?

removed.

What makes WickedInfo.com a reliable source?

It's an interview with Keyboardist Chris Pitman

There was a citation to a YouTube video here which looks like a copyright violation, I've removed it

Is it possible to source a quote from a concert. If you see the video it's clearly Axl Rose explaining the meaning behind the song.

It is, but the issue here is that was not obvious that it was an official or authorised YouTube channel; therefore it must be considered a copyright violation source and cannot be used for a GA. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:25, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

What makes www.a-4-d.com a reliable source?

The quote itself is a direct quote from Rose from the alternate CD booklets. I have a copy of that and can verify its correct, and scans can be found online. Replacing it with the (Media notes). {{cite AV media notes}}: Missing or empty |title= (help) template.

The song "Madagascar" is cited to a scan of the CD inlay. This is a copyright violation, use a proper source.

fixed

"The lyrics feature Rose singing "So if she’s somewhere near me / I hope to God she hears me"" - why is this important to mention here? Same problem with the next song

removed

In general, I think the songs suffer from too much opinion and not enough of explaining the background, style or any other significant facts about them. See the two album GAs I referred to at the top of this section.

It's really hard to find reliable sources on the info of the individual songs. Several prominent reviews don't or barely mention songs on the album. So for example, there might be lots written that can be cited about the style and composition of "Chinese Democracy" or "Better", but there's not that much about a super dense song like "There Was a Time" or "I.R.S." (which for example has the longest high note in the entire GNR catalogue but that's not mentioned by any media or reviewers).

Okay, it's possible nobody's written the definitive G'n'R biography yet, and until that happens, obviously you can't write about what isn't in source. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:37, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Artwork

What makes findery.com a reliable source?

It was a website launched by Flickr co-founder Caterina Fake. Their about page indicated they have an actual team, so it's not a self-published site. I'm not 100% sure about it though.

What makes axelrosefaclube.com a reliable source?

it has an interview with the art director Ryan Corey.

What makes gnrontour.com a reliable source?

Not sure, they've been around since at least 2001 (the copyright date lists 1993). They're a site that compiles tour dates and information. I couldn't find the information anywhere else on the web, and I searched for it for a while. If needed it can be removed.

I'd do with removing it - I don't think it's particularly vital Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:13, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

The paragraph starting "Rose stated in December 2008 that two alternate booklets were pending release, saying" has a quotation that is too long and needs to be trimmed. Also the last sentence in this paragraph is unsourced.

fixed.

* File:Chinese Democracy Promo Box2.jpg seems to have several bits of copyrighted works in it.

removed.

I also nominated this for deletion on Commons, by the way. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:13, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Intermezzo

I'm taking a break to go and look at some other things; I'll pick up the rest of the review tomorrow. I have to say I'm not feeling inclined to pass it at this stage as there are serious problems with the referencing. You've done a good job with copyediting the prose; I can't find too much to complain about from that angle, but that's only one facet of the GA criteria - you need to have facts presented with the appropriate balance in an article, and cited to reputable sources. In particular, fan websites are notorious for getting things wrong, and citations like the Daily Mail should be avoided like the plague. However, I think it's worth carrying on with the review just to list issues, so you've got a complete set of notes to work off for future. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:18, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Commercial performance

* What makes chartmasters.com a reliable source?

Removed as it's actually listed as an unreliable source at WP:ALBUM/SOURCE.

I've made a lot of fixes to the above things. The issues with citations are a lot of them come from reprinting of unavailable material (either print magazines or websites that are not archived) or interviews with people involved in making the album with more obscure sites. RF23 (talk) 08:08, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Also paging several users who have reviewed or commented in past GANs, or worked on the article in the past to see what they think or what can be improved. : User:Calvin999, User:DannyMusicEditor, User:Fountains-of-Paris, User:Retrohead, User:Baffle gab1978, User:Popcornduff, User:Ss112, User:Dan56, and User:Jennica. RF23 (talk) 08:22, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Just a quick update, I've looked through the whole article. I need to merge your comments with the original (and reply to several of them), which I'll do tomorrow when I'm feeling more awake :-/ .... then we'll have an idea of what work is left. I'm more confident now that the article can be improved to meet GA status than I was yesterday, so I think we're heading in the right direction. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 23:30, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

@Ringerfan23: I think we're making progress. I've made some further comments on sources and once those are resolved, I think we'll be there. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:14, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Made some more fixes to the sources, this round was surprisingly easier.RF23 (talk) 20:15, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Yup, I think we're all done here, so I'll pass the review now. Well done! Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:53, 19 August 2018 (UTC)