Talk:Chief Joseph

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Chief Joseph article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Biography: Military

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the military biography work group (assessed as Mid-importance).

Indigenous peoples of North America Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Native Americans, Indigenous peoples in Canada, and related indigenous peoples of North America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Indigenous peoples of North AmericaWikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North AmericaTemplate:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North AmericaIndigenous peoples of North America articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Oregon High‑importance

	Oregon portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Oregon, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Oregon on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.OregonWikipedia:WikiProject OregonTemplate:WikiProject OregonOregon articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
The current collaborations of the month are Women's History Month: Create or improve articles for women listed at Oregon Women of Achievement (modern) or Women of the West, Oregon chapter (historical).

Montana Mid‑importance

	Montana portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Montana, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of Montana on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MontanaWikipedia:WikiProject MontanaTemplate:WikiProject MontanaMontana articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Military history: Biography / North America / United States

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military biography task force
	North American military history task force
	United States military history task force

United States: Old West / Washington Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by WikiProject American Old West (assessed as Low-importance).
	This article is supported by WikiProject Washington.

A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on October 5, 2004, October 5, 2005, October 5, 2006, October 5, 2007, October 5, 2008, October 5, 2009, and October 5, 2010.

Contradiction

After a five-day siege only 30 miles from the Canadian border, he surrendered
Chief Joseph formally surrendered on 5 October 1877 in the Bear Paw mountains of Montana, 40 miles south of Canada (near Havre, Montana).

Those two lines are clearly contradictory, but they're both in the article, so which is right?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Illuvatar (talk • contribs) 22:20, October 5, 2004

Here's the coordinates of the Bear Paw Battlefield where Chief Joseph surrendered: 48° 22' 38" N 109° 12' 35" W. I'm sure there's a way to figure out what the distance to the Canadian border is, but it'll need to be someone who is more concerned with an answer. -- RobLa 04:45, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

they could have moved 10 mile before signing the treaty after all he did want to find his missing people. so moving a 10 miles away to sign the treatry makes it no longer contradictory. -- User:Drachenkonig 00:04, February 10, 2005

@noy

Same Event Mentioned Twice?

"In 1877, after the cavalry threatened to attack, Chief Joseph and other leaders began the journey to the reservation. On a night that Chief Joseph was away from camp, a young Nez Perce man and his friends, avenging the killing of his father, attacked and killed a white settler."

"But, in a reversal of policy in 1877...As they began their journey to Idaho, Chief Joseph learned that three young Nez Perce men, enraged at the loss of their homeland, had massacred a band of white settlers."

Both happened in 1877, and may be the same thing. Anyone have any confirmation or denial of this?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Swwarmuth (talk • contribs) 01:44, February 23, 2005

Eighteen billion Indians?

"With 2,000 U.S. soldiers in pursuit, Chief Joseph led 18,642,916,000 Nez Perce toward freedom at the Canadian border."

That can't possibly be right.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.61.98.70 (talk • contribs) 14:52, May 4, 2006

Always check the page history for vandalism when questions like this arise. Katr67 21:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is "band" appropriate?

The American Heritage Dictionary defines "band" also as "a group of people", yet in common use (apart from musicians) it is used for outlaws mostly. Is it proper to call Indian warriors "bands"? Are groups of indigenous people invaded by settlers "bands"? Is a Native American Indian glad to read this here, or maybe even in History books (if it is also used there too -I am not familiar)? Hoverfish 06:41, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I know that in Canada the term has (had?) meaning, certainly no suggestion of illegal activity. See : http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/First_Nations "A First Nation is a legally undefined term that came into common usage in the 1980s to replace the term "Indian band". Elder Sol Sanderson says that he coined the term in the early 1980s.[1] A band is defined as "a body of Indians for whose collective use and benefit lands have been set apart or money is held by the Canadian Crown, or declared to be a band for the purposes of the Indian Act" [2]. There are currently over 600 First Nations governments or bands in Canada. Roughly half of these are located in the provinces of Ontario and British Columbia." --mgaved 10:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's pretty much the same as the "warbands" of ancient German tribes. Aran|heru|nar 14:00, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, very enlightening the First Nations article (warbands redirects to "warrior society", which hasn't been created yet). Another help was Band societies, where I will link the first mention of band in the article to. It may be usefull to more readers not familiar with this use of the term. Hoverfish 17:16, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is informational.

This is informational about chief Joeseph, don't you think? Thomasreay 00:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reverting a large addition to the article

By this edit, an anon added a big chunk of text at the end of the article, making no attempt to integrate it. I suspected a copyvio, but, at least according to one website, it's from a 1918 book that's now in the public domain. I haven't reviewed it line-by-line to see what, if anything, might be worth incorporating in the article in proper faashion. JamesMLane t c 16:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Savings Bonds

Might be a minor point, but Chief Joseph is depicted on currently issued US Savings Bonds. Series I, $200.[1] 66.191.19.68 (talk) 18:00, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gold Rush Mentioned in Background Section

Which gold rush was it? A small one in the Washington/Oregon area that doesn't have any particular name? I was just curious why no one mentioned it, as seemed to be the cause of the U.S. government's desire for re-negotiation of the 1855 reservation treaty. Vervaine (talk) 19:37, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PEOPLE NEED TO SIGN MORE ON THIS PAGE!

What more to say? --96.25.177.149 (talk) 19:15, 27 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well... you could say

THERE'S NO BUSINESS LIKE WIKIPEDIA BUSINESS

LIKE NO BUSINESS I KNOW

EVERYTHING ABOUT IT IS APPEALING

EVERYTHING THE TRAFFIC WILL ALLOW

NO WHERE CAN YOU GET THAT HAPPY FEELING...TA DA

You could say that, just like Ethel Merman.

7mike5000 (talk) 16:07, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Surrender quotation

The popular legend deflated, however, when the original pencil draft of the report was revealed to show the handwriting of the later poet and lawyer Lieutenant Charles Erskine Scott Wood, who claimed to have taken down the great chief's words on the spot. In the margin it read, "Here insert Joseph's reply to the demand for surrender."

It's not clear to me how the second sentence necessarily negates the historicity of the "I will fight no more forever" quotation. Does this sentence mean that Wood made it up? Or that it was his later recollection of Chief Joseph's statement? (Could he possbily have written it on another piece of paper at the time?) To what extent are we saying that the sad, noble words attributed to Chief Joseph are apocryphal?

Sca (talk) 21:34, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I find this paragraph confusing. What is the conclusion of scholars? Are we supposed to be persuaded and led to a conclusion? The final interpretation should come from the literature, but it is missing. Instead, the argument is by innuendo. Also, there is a hint of "debunking" energy here. 76.118.180.76 (talk) 06:29, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't care for the current wording, either. "popular legend" isn't encyclopedic language. Barring more conclusive evidence, I'd prefer a more neutral presentation: "Some doubt has been raised about the accuracy of the quotation. When the original pencil draft ..." As for the accuracy of the quote, I believe it's entirely possible that LT Wood accurately recorded the quote in another document, and the margin note is nothing more than an editing mark used as a reminder to insert the proper quote. 68.103.21.75 (talk) 01:59, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

other people's names

Hello, do you know: What does Heyoon Yoyikt mean? Is Jean-Louise Sound of Running Feet? How to write Sound of Running Feet in the native language? IsaacDragonBlack (talk) 15:57, 20 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Beal's book

It's very odd that Merrill Beal's respected account, I Will Fight No More Forever: Chief Joseph and the Nez Perce War (University of Washington Press, 2000), is not cited among sources. Added to books & films section. Sca (talk) 15:04, 31 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Map

The map does not claim to represent the difference in size between the 1855 reservation and the 1863 reservation, but rather the difference between the "Ehemaliges Stammesgebiet" (Original tribal territory) and the 1863 reservation. It is of course possible that the green "original tribal territory" area and the 1855 reservation are coextensive, I have asked the image's creator about the source of the image and what exactly the green area represents.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 17:57, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think you may be right that the map is almost correct for original lands. I'm looking up maps and here is what I am finding, we may want to tweak boundaries...

the commons map appears to have the eastern boundary correct (basicially what's now the Idaho-Montana line) but the western boundary looks like the 1855 reservation line. The present-day reservation boundaries appear correct, though.
[2] Map of original boundaries, original reservation and Idaho rez boundaries (doesn't show Colville rez)
another map and the treaty.

Actually the green area on the map doesnt correspond to either the original lands or the 1855 land if the CRITFC map (which is much more informative than ours and apparently more accurate too) is to be trusted. We should get someone to create a similar map for this article.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 22:49, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Who? (All ears!) Montanabw ^(talk) 02:46, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the nice people at the graphics lab.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 02:56, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Chief Joseph/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

Press [show] to view →

Why is it that when it comes to the peoples of the First Nations, the story reads with such wierdness?

The strnageness being, all mentioning death, some (their) shame, lost honor and other tripe.

Why cannot Whites, even now, in 2006 relate and talk about these peoples as persons with everyday needs, desires and so forth?

Most of what is written regarding Chief Joseph (or any others that I've ever read about always, but always, read with this strange style -- annotated by stylized death, belief in their death, more smelly death and just death.

Never (or rarely) has it ever been mentioned that genocide was directed at the peoples of the First Nations and that we cannot possibly now convey what were their true beliefs and thoughts. And that the some oral traditions that were recorded (and being reflected now on WIki) are limited and distilled through many, many a White man's filters. So much so that it might as well be pure fiction; better than even Frank Herbert's _Dune_...

So, could it be possible that Wiki might state this someplace in the article and at least try to be the first place and acknowledge that it's being honest about all the previously written tripe?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.158.45.237 (talk • contribs) 06:58, October 5, 2006

Last edited at 10:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC). Substituted at 11:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Mesopotamian tablet claim

If it's ever needed, here's a Smithsonian article on it.[3] Doug Weller talk 18:55, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Full reference here. Doug Weller talk 18:57, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Chief Joseph. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130303042214/http://rhgirl.com/ to http://rhgirl.com/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 07:20, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

File:Chief Joseph-1877.jpg

This is clearly a drawing, right? Look at the hair, that's not how hair looks in photos, it's too perfect: that's a high-quality illustration. I've found an actual photo. Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 8.8% of all FPs.} 12:40, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]