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Talk:Chemins de fer d'Aire à Fruges et de Rimeux-Gournay à Berck

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Requested move 2 February 2021

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move  — Amakuru (talk) 14:36, 4 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Chemins de Fer d'Aire à Fruges et de Rimeux-Gournay à Berck → Aire-sur-la-Lys–Berck-Plage railway – See background at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains#Translation of titles of foreign railway lines. While this article does discuss the original company, Chemins de Fer d'Aire à Fruges et de Rimeux-Gournay à Berck, in some depth, it's more properly about the line itself. The French article on this topic is called Ligne d'Aire-sur-la-Lys à Berck-Plage, which is a descriptive name for the line and not the company. The original company is acquired by a different company in 1919, decades before this line is abandoned. Descriptive line names that are not proper names are generally translated, see other examples in Category:Railway lines in Hauts-de-France. Mackensen (talk) 15:06, 2 February 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. Jack Frost (talk) 09:34, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong oppose - The article is about both the companies that operated the line (La Compagnie du Chemins de Fer d'Aire à Fruges et de Rimeux-Gournay à Berck (1881-1919) and the Compagnie Générale des Vois Ferrées d'Intérêt Local (1919-55), insofar as the operation of the CF du ARB by VFIL are concerned, and about the line/system itself. WP:USEENGLISH is not WP:USETRANSLATEDINTOENGLISH. We go by what reliable sources say. The major English language source used in the article - Tortillards of Artois - does not translate the name of the companies or lines into English. In any case, the suggested title is still wrong, as Chemins de Fer is plural. A better translation would be "The Aire–Fruges and Rimeux-Gornay–Berck railways", but I oppose a move to that title too. Mjroots (talk) 15:18, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Long discussion between two editors collapsed for readability. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:36, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mjroots, I'm not sure I follow you. Compagnie des Chemins de Fer d'Aire à Fruges et de Rimeux-Gournay à Berck appears to be a proper name of a company that existed from 1886 to 1919 (see for example [1]). It was acquired by the Compagnie générale de voies ferrées d'intérêt local [fr] in 1919. The alleged pluralism of Chemins de Fer has no bearing here as the line name appears to be singular. I do not possess Tortillards of Artois; does it use Ligne d'Aire-sur-la-Lys à Berck-Plage in preference to the English rendering? That does not sound like a proper name to me. Mackensen (talk) 15:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The book does not use "Ligne d'Aire-sur-la-Lys à Berck-Plage" in preference to the translation. The abbreviation ARB is used extensively, with an explanation as to why AFRB and AB (which were also used by the French) was not adopted. There are mentions of the "Aire-Berck line" and the "Aire-Berck company". The other English language source - Minor Railways of France uses the French titles exclusively, with Chemin(s) de Fer abbreviated to CF, thus "CF d'Aire à Fruges et de Rimeux-Gournay à Berck", which it says is "usually known as the Aire-Rimeux-Berck", and thus backing up ARB used by the Farebrothers. Mjroots (talk) 16:00, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    There are three instances that I know of where French railway line articles on the English Wikipedia incorporate "Ligne" in the title: Ligne du Haut-Bugey, Ligne de Sceaux, and Ligne de la Côte Fleurie. All three are arguably proper names, though I have some doubts about the first. All the rest, leaving aside articles that are about both a company and its line, are translated. We're talking about dozens of articles (see Category:Railway lines in France by region and sub-categories). Mackensen (talk) 15:46, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    "All the rest, leaving aside articles that are about both a company and its line, are translated" - No, they are not. There are many that are not translated, such at the Réseau Breton (Network Brittany), Réseau des Bains de Mer (Network Sea Baths), part of which survives as the Chemin de Fer de la Baie de Somme (Railway of the Somme Bay), the Réseau Albert (Network Albert) etc. Translations given are literal, and would be better rendered as Brittany Network, Sea Baths Network, Somme Bay Railway and Albert Network. The point is, these translations are not used by reliable sources,which is why the articles are at the correct French titles, as is this article. Mjroots (talk) 16:32, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Mjroots, we seem to be talking past each other. If reliable English-language sources use Ligne d'Aire-sur-la-Lys à Berck-Plage for the line, then we should use that. I don't dispute that reliable English-language sources use Chemins de Fer d'Aire à Fruges et de Rimeux-Gournay à Berck for the original company, and I agree that the name of the company should not be translated. The line and company are not the same, however, and this article is about the former. If English-language sources conflate the two then we're not obliged to follow suit, especially when there's a featured article, in French, that does not conflate the two. If Ligne d'Aire-sur-la-Lys à Berck-Plage is a descriptive name it should be translated into English like all the rest, unless there are English-language sources using it. Mackensen (talk) 16:53, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Mackensen please re-read my comment timed at 15:08 today, particularly re the full name of the original company. The company and its line are inseparable. A similar situation can be found at the article on the Cranbrook and Paddock Wood Railway, the original company that built and operated the Hawkhurst branch line. I think we've both said enough for now, why don't the pair of us await input from other editors? Mjroots (talk) 17:04, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral "Railway" can refer to both the physical infrastructure or to a company, for ex. of the latter Great Western Railway (compare with Great Western main line). Other guidelines of article naming conventions apply, "WP:Common name" is not the only one - naturalness (what a non-expert reader might look for) is also to be taken into consideration, and unlike something like the SNCF (Société nationale des chemins de fer francais), a reader is unlikely to be looking for a railway company in French (especially one with the wrong capitalisation - in French only the first word and proper nouns [place names] should get the majuscule treatment). Now the specialist sources above seem to not use the full line-of-route name but instead prefer "Aire-Rimeux-Berck", so while I think the current article title is unjustifiable, the current proposal is not the correct target either. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:36, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I am certainly strongly of the opinion that any form of dash for place names should not be mixed with any form of dash linking destinations on the article title. If there are sources suggesting Aire-Rimeux-Berck I'd probably weakly suggest Aire-Rimeux-Berck railway wuld be OK (though Rimeux does not seem to be significant). In some ways I'd like just to use the endpoint settlements, Aire-sur-la-Lys to Berck railway but I don't think its practice to use to in this context and if and was used it would suggest to me is was a more official rather than descriptive title; this also implies this railway between the endpoints is not ambiguous.Djm-leighpark (talk) 23:12, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support: Mjroots cites WP:UE which says that titles "should follow English-language usage"; the current title is not English. Further, the article is essentially WP:SINGLESOURCE, but Farebrother & Farebrother avoid the question entirely by not translating the names. WP:Article title lists five criteria for article titles; the current title definitely fails the first two, Recognizability and Naturalness, and based on Mackensen's argument at WT:RR, doesn't meet Consistency either. AlgaeGraphix (talk) 23:20, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    My preferred title is Aire–Fruges and Rimeux-Gournay–Berck railway. AlgaeGraphix (talk) 04:22, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • The current title is entirely within what is set out in the first sentence of the second paragraph of WP:UE. Tortillards of Artois is a weighty tome in excess of 300 pages covering the metre gauge railways of the north west Pas-de-Calais - the CF AC, CF du ARB, CF du BB and TvAPA. The Farebrothers are experts in French railway history, with several books published. Yes, the article is essentially singlesource, but it's a damn good one. The current title certainly meets recognisability, anyone with basic French would know that chemin de fer = railway. Naturalness - again that comes back to the first sentence in the second paragraph of UE. Consistency is also met, the title is consistent with the articles on the four lines that made up the system, and with other French systems, as I set out in the collapsed discussion above. Mjroots (talk) 04:20, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: With respect I was taught French for two years in Chichester and five in Pompey and can demonstrate an O-level certificate in the language — and need to use it communications in the local library with a librarian — so might just consider myself in the "basic French" category though I wouldn't consider my anywhere near fluent. My off-the-cuff guess was Chemin was a place until I ran Chemin de Fer through google translate, and I now know better. Djm-leighpark (talk) 06:12, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally, the requirements of WP:CRITERIA are that the title be natural to non-experts: since most readers are not experts in either railway history (or French), using such a name might be counter-productive. As for "Chemin de Fer", that is a capitalisation mistake and I'll promptly be moving this to a correct capitalisation if this RM doesn't pass in one variant or another. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:21, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm only following the sources. If you are saying "Chemin(s) de Fer" should be "Chemin(s) de fer", then I can accept that and won't object to moves made for that reason. Mjroots (talk) 20:00, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mjroots Per normal French capitalisation rules (there's a full article on French WP, but you can trust me as a speaker of the language), it should, as only 1) proper nouns and 2) initial words get the 'majuscule' treatment in titles (except in some other exceptions and some compound words, which this is not). However, I now realise that this is an issue which doesn't affect only this article, and that even if the title is corrected, some copy-editing is then required to fix the usage of the capitalised F in abbreviations by mistaken English-speakers; see Category:Metre gauge railways in France (and for an example of this, see the history Chemin de fer d'Anvin à Calais (capitalisation is as on the French page, now that I've fixed it). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:09, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Aire-sur-la-Lys, Fruges, Rimeux-Gournay and Berck railway would work for me as I can clearly distinguish the pleace names and that it is a railway, though there might be fight over an Oxford comma.Djm-leighpark (talk) 06:19, 10 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This would also be an acceptable English-language title for the page. Regardless, the title should make it clear that it is for the line, which was opearted by different companies over the years. AlgaeGraphix (talk) 20:42, 24 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. In my copy of Atlas ferroviaire de la France I, this line is identified as (formerly) belonging to the Compagnie génèrale de voies ferrées d'intèrét local, which as noted in the article text acquired the original company in 1919. Further, it identifies four separate line segments belonging to that company: (1) Anvins–Calais, (2) Aires–Fruges, (3) Rimeux-Gournay–Berck-Plage, and (4) Ardres–Pont d'Ardres. The line this article discusses is composed of parts 2 and 3. Mackensen (talk) 20:17, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • By "that company" I assume you mean the VFIL. The original Compagnie du Chemins de fer d'Aire à Fruges et de Rimeux-Gournay à Berck did not own the line from north of Rimeux-Gournay to south of Gourgesson. That section was owned by the Compagnie du Chemin de Fer d'Anvin à Calais. The CF du ARB only had running powers over that section, hence the name of the company covering the lines it actually owned. Before 1919, there were four separate companies that owned lines that made up the system in the north west Pas-de-Calais. The VFIL took over the lot in 1919. It's a pity they never formally named it the "Réseau Pas-de-Calais" as it would have made it a lot simpler this end. Mjroots (talk) 09:45, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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