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This archive includes threads from Talk:Charles Ives from the page's creation until December 31st, 2010.

Archive 1

I think this should be verified.

Revise sentence

The sentence "Although he is now best known for his instrumental music, he composed two string quartets and other works of chamber music" (found in the first paragraph of the second section) could use some revision. Chamber music is a type of instrumental music. Is "orchestral music" the intended phrase?

You're correct; I fixed it. Thanks! Antandrus 22:55, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

The photo description "Charles Ives, left, captain of the baseball team and pitcher for Hopkins Grammar School"

Shouldn't it be "captain of Hopkins Grammar School and pitcher of the baseball team"? Rwiggans (talk) 02:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Nope, he was indeed both pitcher and captain of the baseball team while at Hopkins. Binksternet (talk) 03:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Request for references

Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. Further reading is not the same thing as proper references. Further reading could list works about the topic that were not ever consulted by the page authors. If some of the works listed in the further reading section were used to add or check material in the article, please list them in a references section instead. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 17:12, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism

Hey nerds, stop vandalizing.

Should this be in the Introduction?

Ives, who died in 1954 in New York City, left behind material for an unfinished Universe Symphony. Although there have been several attempts at completion, none has found its way into general performance.

This is certainly interesting information, but hardly introductory (the symphony, I mean; date and place of death are appropriate here). After this article passes its time as featured, I plan on editing this. JPB 15:52, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

No, I don't think it should be in the intro either; it's detail which is better covered elsewhere in the article, as indeed it is. Definitely feel free to edit it. Antandrus 18:00, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Date of Yale entry?

The Charles Ives article lists him born in 1874 and entering Yale in 1864. I'm a novice at Music History, but I don't think that could be right. Maybe it's 1894? -PSS

You are correct--he started at Yale in September 1894, and graduated in 1898. He only began studying with Parker seriously in 1896; it appears he only audited his courses for the first two years (that's not in the article... yet). Antandrus (talk) 20:46, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

The rest is silence

Ives was virtually silent for the last 30 years of his life. Shouldn't there be some attempt to explain this?

I added a paragraph. The reason is not known for certain; there are lots of theories, but the story told by Harmony to John Kirkpatrick is pretty well known. Antandrus (talk) 04:03, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
So what is the story told by Harmony? --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 19:01, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Pretty well known. Those in the know, know, you know? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.163.65.9 (talk) 22:23, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, it was in there. This was the paragraph I added in 2005, but the article has been beat up a bit since then. "Harmony's story" is the one about him coming down the stairs with tears in his eyes, saying "nothing sounds right any more." Antandrus (talk) 22:20, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Influence of Dvorak

"The first symphony of 1898 was Ives’ graduation piece from Yale and is directly modelled on the spiritual godfather of all American symphonies, Dvorak’s New World which had been premiered just five years previously in New York. Although it sounds closer to Dvorak than it does to Ives’ own mature works it still contains many fascinating insights into the composer he was soon to become." - quoted form http://www.necgroup.co.uk/visitor/whatson/2005 Given the strong early influence of Dvorak, why is this not mentioned?

Low marks at Yale

If i'm not mistaken didn't Ives receive either an overall grade of F or similar failing grade in music, or was it low scores in just some music courses? If so, it would be interesting to include this in the article!

If I remember correctly, he had a C average in music coures and a D average for everything else. Though I can't recall a source for that. --Mahlered 08:10, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

He got around a middling B in music and Ds in everything else —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.149.49.69 (talk) 18:52, August 20, 2007 (UTC)

Maynard Solomon article

Why no mention of the Maynard Solomon contentions? It seems rather central to a modern understanding of Ives.

Well his claims have been largely debunked and rejected by most Ives scholars such as Jan Swafford, and considering they mostly arose 20 years ago, I don't think it's worth adding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.8.102 (talk) 23:20, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

State of the article

This article looks to me like a candidate for some significant cleanup. It needs overall reorganization, a large number of sentences have rather clunky structure with useless words abounding, and the overall feel is pretty amateurish. I will do what I can but I encourage you to help out too! --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 19:00, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I have attempted to address the clunky sentence structure in the first part of the 'Early Music' section. The 'two pillars' part was a bit vague and I didn't know if it included his father or the 'two pillars' of outdoor music and instrumentation-so I just replaced it with 'interests' and hope it flows better. --Godfinger 11:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I've tried improving a few other sentences too, which I feel needed improving to avoid the amateurish tone. It is easy to get carried away so I'll leave it for now as I don't want to mess anything up if it is getting any where close to featured article status. But I still think there is a lot of stylistic problems with parts of the article. --Godfinger 14:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the second paragraph of the "Early Music" section (about the "Variations on America") is entirely redundant, as its material is better covered by the fourth paragraph in the same section. There is a recording on Naxos 8.570559 of [a transcription of] the "Variations on America" played by "The President's Own" United States Marine Band, recorded in June 2003. 86.13.158.235 (talk) 04:07, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

For me, this seems a bit unclear

<Quote> His works have dissonance, which comes from untrained voices singing a hymn together: some voices straining and sharpening the pitch, others just missing and flattening the pitch, creating a cluster of tones instead of a single tone. <unquote>

I think I know what you are saying, but it sounds like "dissonance comes from untrained voices..." etc. I think that perhaps you mean that Ives creates the image of "untrained voices, missing pitches, etc" by using dissonance and other things (cluster tones, polytonality, etc.)

Anyway, I don't mean to take away from such a great article, just to say that for me this was unclear. It seems as if the article is defining dissonance, and that isn't what dissonance is. Just my opinion. Ditto BTW on Polyrythm. Thanks! --83.145.228.42 (talk) 22:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

yeah i don't think discussing the origins of ives' compositional devices in hymn-culture belongs in the introduction anyway (see WP:BETTER), and is probably original research. 70.49.253.29 (talk) 23:04, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not original research perse - it is true to an extent that his experiences with choral music influenced his experimental thought and this has been commented on many times. However ths is not the only place where is 'comes from', so the information as writ is not correct. The wording of that section is appalling, and I agree that this is not really information that should go in the introduction. If someone wants to paraphrase this in a less clmusy way in a later section of the article (making it clear that there were many other influences on his poltonality, polyrythms and dissonance), then that would be great. If not, I will do it in about 1 weeks time, to allow enough people to comment on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.54.164 (talk) 00:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I have edited it now 131.111.8.104 (talk) 08:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

An image on this page may be deleted

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WikiProject Contemporary music

See list at top of this page. I do not think Charles Ives meets the criteria for WikiProject Contemporary music. Davidships (talk) 17:52, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Everywhere Ives is taught, discussed or critiqued, he's assigned contemporary music status. I would never question his inclusion in that project. Binksternet (talk) 19:32, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is still B-class; things mentioned in the last FAR have still not been addressed, 18 months later. My full review (which mentions some other things), is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 19:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Stamp image removal

I have removed the stamp image File:1997 Charles Ives stamp.jpg because it a non-free image of a stamp that fails WP:NFC#Images which clearly states: "Stamps and currency: For identification of the stamp or currency, not its subject', which was the use here, so it may not be used in this article. This use is improper and must be removed. If you disagree you may want to familiarise yourself with the following: WP:NFCC#3a, WP:NFCC#8, WP:NFC#Images, and this FAQ to better understand the issues. Sorry. ww2censor (talk) 04:11, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

The FAQ doesnt mention stamps, which are public domain in most countries and much used in de: articles such as Nelly Sachs. US stamps, I now understand, are PD only if issued before 1978. Sparafucil (talk) 06:26, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This information is being added so that English speaking readers will know the availability of works by Charles Ives in the catalog of Peermusic Classical. Most composers’ works are represented by more than one publisher, which can cause consternation for interested parties. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.139.153.138 (talk) 20:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Aleatoric Elements?

I have become a recent admirer of Ives. In the beginning of this article, it is said some of his works contained "aleatoric elements." Reading both this article and the one on aleatoric music, I have found no specific mention of how Ives incorporated aleatory into any of his music. Nor was any available on the internet, as far as my searches could prove, and being a novice to his works I could not inform myself. Could anyone tell me how Ives implemented chance in any of his music? If not, I suggest mentions of it be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chakibi (talk • contribs) 01:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Archive 1

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Charles Ives/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)Press [show] to view →
==Composers Project Assessment of Charles Ives: 2009-02-23==

This is an assessment of article Charles Ives by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano.

If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down.

Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status.

===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described?

  • ok

===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

  • ok, but we never meet his family.

===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed?

  • ok, but we never meet his family.

===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article.

  • ok; list is incomplete, but with reason

===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)?

  • Style and critical commentary; little public appreciation.

===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.)

  • Images present; no sound.

===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references?

  • Article has references; some inline citations.

===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.)

  • Lead is a bit short; List of compositions article should be under Works.

===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review===

  • Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE)
  • Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD)
  • Article prose needs work (WP:MOS) (per FAR discussions)

===Summary=== Demoted Feature Articles are always an interesting review. It's often the case, as it is here, that many of the problem outlined in the FAR discussion are still present, sometimes after notable time has passed (in this case, about 18 months). Some of the FAR complaints about the writing in this article still apply, and there are still phrases about which specific complaints were made. I will add to the FAR complaints the observation that we never meet Ives' family, although it is implied that he married at some point.

Article is B-class; the last FAR is (still) a good indicator of what needs fixing. Magic♪piano 19:43, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Last edited at 19:43, 23 February 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 14:29, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Possessive's rule

According to MOS:POSS, it should be done the way it's pronounced. I've never heard it pronounced Ives's (Ivezez) but rather simply Ives' (Ivez). If I'm mistaken, please undo the two changes I've made. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:11, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

NPOV

"All these effects are combined to create one of the towering masterworks of 20th century piano literature—an unprecedented masterpiece of American music."

"Perhaps the most remarkable piece of orchestral music Ives completed was his Fourth Symphony (1910–16). The list of forces required to perform the work alone is extraordinary."

Sounds like this article was pulled from the back of Charles Ives CDs. The whole thing should probably be scrubbed of disgustingly adulatory prose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.173.225.241 (talk) 06:01, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I totally agree. Vonbontee (talk) 07:19, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

This article is not in line with modern scholarship on Ives!!

In the archive, some anon dismissed Maynard Solomon's tract on Ives - which is ridiculous. There now have been at least two recent biographies that mostly support his findings. The newest book is just now being issued and definitely needs to have some of the authors' (plural) material incorporated. Ives took the beginning dates of his compositions as the date of the final work rather than the many revisions that took place over the years, well after some European composers had issued their modernist works. This doesn't denigrate the quality of the work, but it does show that the Ives-the-American-who-got-there-first is just a fiction. Ives is not one of my favorite composers so my interest in this is just passing, but the article needs work. HammerFilmFan (talk) 21:30, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Charles Ives Reconsidered, by Gayle Sherwood Magee. U. of Illinois Press, 2008., Elliot Carter's views on Ives, and of course, the Maynard Solomon piece all need to be worked in.HammerFilmFan (talk) 21:33, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

BUMP!! HEY! Folks - it is time to get with the program on this!!!! This was noted six years ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.82.249.6 (talk) 11:32, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Please see the page about being bold, & also the pages about Wikipedia's five pillars and policies & guidelines. Peaceray (talk) 03:45, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Sentence about Ives's chamber music contains a non sequitur

This sentence --

"He composed two string quartets and other works of chamber music, though he is now best known for his instrumental music."

-- doesn't make sense, because chamber music is by definition instrumental music. Does the sentence mean to say "orchestral music" instead? That would make both more semantic and critical sense.

Tdavey (talk) 00:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

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Checked, OK, thanks. The sots page can be found at [1] but this looks like a temporary configuration problem so I won't update the article for now. --Mirokado (talk) 21:02, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

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