Talk:Catholic Church in Sichuan

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by RoySmith (talk) 22:05, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that the first Catholic synod in China was held in 1803 near Chongqingzhou, Sichuan Province? Source: Charbonnier, Jean. Partir en mission "à la Chine" : Les progrès de l'Église au Sichuan. "En 1803, Mgr Dufresse réunit près de Chongqingzhou, 40 km à l'ouest de Chengdu, le premier synode de Chine."; Wright, Arnold, ed. (1908). Twentieth Century Impressions of Hongkong, Shanghai, and other Treaty Ports of China. p. 322. "In 1803 the first synod ever celebrated in China was held in Szechwan, and its statutes are still admired and put into practice."
  • Reviewed:

Created by Uriel1022 (talk). Self-nominated at 00:05, 9 September 2022 (UTC).

• length, date, hook, paraphrase check ok. No QPQ needed, as second DYK nom of the editor. --Soman (talk) 03:17, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Catholic Church in Sichuan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Uriel1022 (talk · contribs) 15:11, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Pbritti (talk · contribs) 18:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello! It's Pbritti. While I'm monolingual, I think using some machine translations to stumble through the sources will be enough for me to give a decent review. Please ping me on my talk page if you need an immediate response. This review will get underway in sincerity sometime in the next 24 hours. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:55, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello! Pbritti, great to see you again, it has been a while. Thank you for taking time to do this review. Please don't hesitate to ping me if you encounter any discrepancy between the article and machine translation, the latter can be tricky. Uriel1022 (talk) 20:47, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Some very much preliminary comments

Hey! I ended up on a plane today so my edits have all been by mobile (so is this one!). However, I wanted to initially note that the sources you've used are generally strong and I don't anticipate any issues stemming directly from your use of any of them. I did sense some discrepancies in how you term some proper nouns and would encourage consistency. For example, names like "Sichuanese Church" are readily understandable to someone familiar with Catholic terminology. However, solitary use of such a term without definition, especially in the lead, can be confusing. The same could be said in the use of "Catholic" and "Roman Catholic". Either of those terms are acceptable, but I would prefer you select just one to use consistently. Otherwise, my initial read-through was enjoyable and my future comments will be mostly about peripheral matters. Expect them sometime in the next 24 hours. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:48, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello! Pbritti, the winners are Catholic, Catholicism and Catholic Church. Please don't hesitate to let me know if you find any grammatical error or awkward wording, and your advice would be much appreciated. Again, thank you for your time! Uriel1022 (talk) 18:56, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Excellent, Uriel1022. I have to delay my more thorough review of your work until Wednesday. If I could, I would prefer to just read your article and work with you for hours–it would be far more rewarding and interesting–but I have offline things that require attention. I apologize for the inconvenience and hope to compensate you by offering what I hope will be my most comprehensive GAN review. ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:10, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

No rush, Pbritti, the article can wait. Uriel1022 (talk) 10:34, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Here are some additional comments:

Lead

• Ecclesia Catholica in Seciuen or Secioan Are there instances in which the church in the region is referred to as such in Latin? Presumably it's in D'Elia, but I don't have access to that source. Willing to just AGF and enjoy the Latin.
  • Y Done. I removed the Latin name, for the Church in Sichuan has never been referred to as such. I assumed in the first place that the Latin name is an "automatic relevance" to a member of the Latin Church, guess it's not the case. Looks like the source link is dead. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• personae non gratae Good work pluralizing that; consider linking the term, just as it is a bit of a technical term.
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• The last statistic of Catholics in the region you provide is from 1911. Are there reliable later totals?
  • I added one but not including Chongqing, Wanxian and Kangding. Things got very confused after several administrative and jurisdictional changes. Hopefully I'll come across something reliable for these three dioceses. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• A bit more could be added, particularly on the church there since 1949.
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Early period

• received baptism the following year, who were the first Catholics in Sichuan I would suggest the more normative term were baptized (even if the sacramental theology suggests received is the better word). I would add that technically Buglio is the first Catholic in the region, so perhaps reorder the wording to say "first Sichuanese Catholics".
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• You wrote an outstanding article at An Account of the Entry of the Catholic Religion into Sichuan; a parenthetical indicating its date of first publication at this first mention is worthwhile so a read knows that it is not a (wholly) contemporaneous work.
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• the then intendant of Eastern Sichuan Circuit Consider rephrasing to "then the intendant of the Eastern Sichuan Circuit"
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• of converts in Baoning, Candida Replace comma with a full stop
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• invited a French Jesuit priest Claude Motel Either put commas around Claude Motel or exchange a for "the" (my preference)
  • Y Done. Same here for the preference. I was wondering if "the" might indicate he was the only French Jesuit priest. Now I got it, thanks to you, Pbritti. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

18th Century

• The Qing policy of treating Catholics are heretics vis-à-vis Confucians is described in the lead. This is not mentioned in the body and needs to be.
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• Similarly, the persecution of Catholics by neighboring communities on the behest of district magistrates is mentioned in the lead but not in the body.
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• The Lyonese Jean Basset Was he a priest or a layman?
  • Y Done. A priest. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• On first mention, replace the Los with "the Lo family" and describe who they were
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• Kou was a Beijingese Rephrase. If he was a Beijingese convert, say so. If not, rephrase to "Kou was Beijingese" (the definite article is unneeded).
  • Y Done. I rephrased it to "a Beijingese priest". - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• The latter visited Rephrase to "De Martiliat visited"
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• she was over 50 Perhaps say "over 50 years old". Numbers up to a hundred are spelled out in most other instances in the article, so consider replacing with "fifty".
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• during the eighteenth century Use "during the 18th century"
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

19th Century

• You mention "hidden Buddhists" and the 1858 missionary policy in the lead but not in the body. This should be resolved.
  • I was unable to find any elaboration on this matter. It seems like Mr. Laamann got some extra material at hand. I inserted this piece of information into the body text, with a little rephrasing. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• The decisions refer primarily to the pastoral care of the sacraments. Chapter 10 Please indicate that the decisions were published, as a person unfamiliar with the concept of a local synod might not be familiar with that practice
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• In 1815, Dufresse was arrested and beheaded This event requires elaboration to indicate why it happened and who performed the actions
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
• the "discoverer" of the pandas Presumably you're saying he was the first Westerner to learn about pandas. Add a one- or two-word modifier that indicates the reason for the quotation marks and drop the definite article in front of pandas.
  • Y Done. I rephrased to "he discovered the giant panda, which was hitherto known only to the Chinese". - Uriel1022 (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, those are some substantial initial comments and more will follow at the end of the week. Good work, but I would specifically note that the lead does not presently function as a sufficient summary of the body and contains material unmentioned in the body. Please ping with any questions. Again, good work, Uriel1022! ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:35, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for this amazingly detailed review, Pbritti. It may take two or three days for me to dig deeper into the subject. Guess I'll "see" you this weekend. Thanks again for your patience! Uriel1022 (talk) 20:44, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

@Uriel1022: Excellent work thus far! I'm reading through your adjustments now and intend to have a final set of comments completed within the next 24 hours. In instances where material can be easily corrected or modified, I'm taking the initiative to make those fixes myself. If you notice I do something you think might be imprudent for any reason, please revert me and just note it. I trust your judgement to the highest degree. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:55, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Hey, Pbritti! I trust your judgement, too. Best wishes for your Aquilegia sibirica GAN! Uriel1022 (talk) 19:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

TLP swinging by

Pleased to see this getting GAR. A few minor thoughts on the subject, as I am limiting myself to one published edit per day. Pbritti can put their main review on top of this subsection.

• The presence of the Catholic Church in the southwestern Chinese province of Sichuan Would you like to include Chongqing into the lede? Could be "in Sichuan and Chongqing (traditionally part of Sichuan, separated in 1997) ..."
• spent much of the 1640s doing evangelism -> "spent much of the 1640s evangelising", perhaps?
• The primate of the province ... It is, I think, worthy to mention the Bishop of Chengdu or the Diocese of Chengdu in the lede. As far as I know, the CCPA made jurisdiction changes in the late 20th century and the Diocese of Chengdu serves as the role of a "province" over the new Sichuan province (without Chongqing).
• 19th century: I think it will be much better if you can mention the Sino-French Treaty of the Convention of Peking (after the Second Opium War) that allowed Catholic missionaries to evangelise again in the country. Otherwise, a reader might not understand why Catholicism could came to a rise immediately in the second half of the century.
• For your reference, there are former discussions on the reliability of catholic-hierarchy.org as a source (see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_203#catholic-hierarchy.org, Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_301#Catholic-Hierarchy.org).
• The plight of the church during the Cultural Revolution is worthy to be mentioned, if you can find proper sources on this matter. It is understandable if sources are hard to find.
• The leadership of the CPA in Sichuan could be mentioned. Sichuan CPA does constitute as a part of the "Catholic Church in Sichuan".

That's as much as I have–I am not going to add any more in this GAR. Take them as funny thoughts, not requirements. Cheers, --The Lonely Pather (talk) 19:36, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for these great ideas, TLP, they would definitely make the article more complete. But issues 5 and 6 can be tricky. The CCPA's official site clearly has nothing to say on the statistics. Holy Spirit Study Centre published a 2020 report (see here), they briefly mentioned the number of Catholics in China, no provincial statistics presented. Catholic-Hierarchy.org is likely the only source we have. The history of the Church during the Cultural Revolution, I'll try, no guarantee though. You understand it perfectly.

Issue 4: already mentioned in the lede, "after the lifting of missionary controls in 1858". Issue 7: CCPA and BCCCC's governance over Sichuan is included in the infobox. Uriel1022 (talk) 21:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Further comments

Ok, some bad news, Uriel1022. I was planning to perform a spotcheck on sources tonight and had to get started a bit later than planned (yikes–this review may end up getting completed this weekend, for which I am sorry). The more unfortunate part, however, is a major concern: there is a close paraphrasing issue evident in the lead: material referenced to Sichuan Religions is far too closely paraphrased. Some sentences are identically structured and utilize identical verbiage despite it being somewhat less formal than might be traditionally expected on Wikipedia. This is a significant issue. Using Earwig, I can already see a couple other instances: Cambridge and UCA News. Right now, it looks like there are around a dozen sentences throughout the article that lift verbatim or largely from sources but aren't quoted. This is a significant concern but does not automatically derail the nomination. I will get back to you more as soon as I am off work for the week. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:36, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

My bad, I was being really lazy (oops). I'll fix the issue tomorrow, Pbritti. Please don't worry, take your time, I'm actually... quite comfortable processing at a slow pace. Uriel1022 (talk) 03:21, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Update: I believe I've fixed the close paraphrasing issue, though 2%–3% similarity still remains. Uriel1022 (talk) 19:38, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Pbritti, I made sure that there's 0% similarity left for Sichuan Religions and UCA News. But I ran out of ideas on how to rephrase these two: "the first chapter of" and "the entire Protestant missionary enterprise" (see here, 2.9% similarity remained). The former, in my opinion, is basically irreplaceable. The latter just reads much better than "the whole Protestant missionary enterprise". Your ideas would be greatly appreciated. Uriel1022 (talk) 14:45, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Stellar work. I want to first say that you probably weren't being really lazy; I've discovered sentences that I wrote were far too close to a source years later when revisiting articles I contributed to. It's unfortunately a common thing in Wikipedia and part of why we have the GA process. I'll be on about 28 hours from now to complete this review and expect to pass it. I may include some parting comments that won't prevent the pass, but should be considered if you plan to further improve the article. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:16, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

That's swell, any comment or opinion is welcome. I'd like to promote the article to featured status, but there's no rush. Uriel1022 (talk) 17:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Final comments

I've burned through a couple minor issues on my own (stuff of no consequence) but I'll list a handful of final things I'd like fixed before promotion to GA. Once done, we're good to go. Also, thanks for your incredible response to my concern regarding the paraphrasing–absolutely a banner example of civility and cooperation. Great work, Uriel1022. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:44, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

• Roulland was a spiritual brother of Saint Thérèse of Lisieux. Please add one sentence or something that expands on what spiritual brother is and who Thérèse of Lisieux was.
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 15:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
• According to a Catholic source contacted by AsiaNews, "in China it is no longer a question of listening to the Lord, of feeling his grace and following him. This is the root of the disease of the Chinese Church today, it is difficult to get away from the influence of ideology. Politics has entered the Church", and "persecution of Church members who do not want to submit to religious bodies controlled by the Party continues." Please consider summarizing this as a criticism of the CCP's actions.
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 15:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
• All the dioceses of Sichuan follow the tradition of the Latin Church They are part of the Latin Church not only as a tradition, but also as a part of its actual structure. I would just restructure this passage to "All the Catholic dioceses in Sichuan are part of the Latin Church".
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 15:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
• which had been in full communion with the Pope in Rome until the establishment of the state-sanctioned Catholic Patriotic Church (1957) after the fall of mainland China to communism (1949). Add a citation after this passage and very briefly explain how this communion has altered over. Technically, they remain in full communion with Rome, but you may wish to explain this a bit.
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 15:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
• On 11 April 1946, Pope Pius XII established the Catholic hierarchy in China. This paragraph just needs a citation or two at the end.
  • Y Done. - Uriel1022 (talk) 15:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Pbritti, it should be me feeling grateful, for your patience, your diligent search of every nook and corner, and sacrificing time for this "verbose" article instead of for your own GAN. I don't know what to say, my bestest wishes! Let's conclude the task. - Uriel1022 (talk) 15:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

@Uriel1022: A single, final request before approval: the article notes that the Catholic Bible translation created for dissemination in Sichuan became the prototype for Protestant translations that enabled their missionary efforts. I think it's only fitting to acknowledge in the lead this immensely impactful legacy the Catholic Church in Sichuan has had on Christianity in China. Once done, ping me. We're done here! ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:45, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Y It's done, Pbritti. I know you got dozens of bulbs. Let's go. Uriel1022 (talk) 17:26, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.