Talk:Casey Jones

"Casey Jones the Union Scab"

IWW version of song, "Casey Jones the Union Scab", might be worth mention.
--Jerzy•t 20:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Most famous?

I take issue with the last sentence of the opening paragraph that describes Jones as "the world's most famous railroad engineer for over a century". This is an example of a statement that is presented as fact simply because there is a reference to back it up. I doubt most people - even train engineers - in most parts of the world have ever heard of Casey Jones. So perhaps it would be helpful to re-phrase this? e.g. "He has been called the most famous in the world", or (if there is evidence to back this up) "he is the most famous in the United States". Actually, this whole concept of "most famous" is in itself rather subjective. What about "He is famous in the United States" ? 65.95.238.59 (talk) 19:15, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

This issue has already been settled! See the discussion section entitled "CASEY's FAME," it is listed in the contents where you could have easily seen it. Just scroll down. You are mistaken, he IS the most famous. There is no question. I think many more engineers worldwide have heard of Casey Jones as opposed to anyone else you might think of. The EVIDENCE is VERY clear and compelling and is in the section called CASEY'S FAME (see below). Why don't you try checking the contents before discussing an aspect of Casey's life and career that has ALREADY been covered?? 206.255.97.67 (talk) 06:29, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Not everybody has "table of contents" turned on, and "Casey's Fame" wouldn't seem to me to be directly relevant; if I'd seen that title, I'd've thought it was to do with why he was famous or the breadth of his fame, rather than the specific claim of being the "most famous".

There's also bunch of other locally-famous railroad engineers (here's a few, though it doesn't include Jack Mills), and I do doubt many outside of the US have heard the song or about the engineer - I only got to this article because of Casey Junior, who's known further and wider than Mr. Jones. I think this counts as a peacock term, and should be rewritten either in term of facts ("His status as a folk hero has endured for 107 years [citation to current reference to him], including a number of memorials on the centennial of his death in February 2000 [citation present in the Casey's Fame section]") or as a direct quote ('Railway Engineer's Magazine refer to him as "the most famous railway engineer in the world"').

Just my two cents; this is otherwise a very well written and well researched article, and I'm not going to be bold unless there's major consensus on this talk page to make this change. -- Gaurav (talk) 09:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

(To clarify, I'm not the anonymous user who started this section/thread, but this page was on my watchlist and so I waded in. Cheers. -- Gaurav (talk) 10:08, 9 December 2009 (UTC))

• He is, at best, the "the world's most famous railroad engineer" only in the same sense that the annual baseball showdown is the "World" Series. EEng 05:17, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Location of birth

In the introduction it says he was from Jackson, Tennessee. in the section about his youth it says he was born in southeast Missouri Which is it? --98.23.135.127 (talk) 09:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

He was born in southeast Missouri but married and settled down in Jackson, Tennessee. He lived the bulk of his life in Jackson. He considered it his home. When he died he was still living in Jackson, Tennessee. Hence, he is considered as being FROM Jackson, Tennessee. I don't consider myself as being "from" the city I was born, but the one I am living in now. Homedepotov (talk) 18:46, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't the article say he grew up near Cayce, KY? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.181.160.60 (talk) 00:21, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Age at first employment

In the Beginnings section, Jones's age in 1878 is listed as 15, but I don't think that matches up with his date of birth. I think he can only have been 13 or 14 then. Stu 02:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

It's a match. he was born in 1863. 206.255.97.67 (talk) 23:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Casey Jones in Gillian Welch's songs

Maybe one should add that in two pretty well known songs by Gillian Welch there is a reference to Casey Jones; not necessarily as a hero, but maybe just as someone who moved fast.

=="S" Curve Innacuracy"

The text referenced Casey entering the last part of an "S" curve. In reality, the wreck location (north switch at Vaughn Siding) was nearly in the middle of a 1.5 mile long, 0'30" curve. North of this curve, the track is straight for approximately 5 miles to the north back to the curve at Pickens. REB281 (talk) 03:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Brakes

This mentions that Jones possibly saved lives by riding the brake into the accident, but http://www.watervalley.net/users/caseyjones/casey.htm notes that once the e-brake is set you don't need to hold it anymore. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.18.173.136 (talk • contribs) 17:46, September 23, 2006.

The article says "When alerted to the danger Casey doubtless reacted instinctively, pulling on the brakes, throwing the engine in reverse, and dumping the sanders. He knew he had to stay with the engine, and do everything he could to slow it down, which involved continually dumping sand and applying and reapplying the brakes, otherwise lives would have been lost. The air brakes when applied are virtually instantaneous for the 6 car train. But on this night the rails were wet, reducing surface traction and braking ability. If Casey had pulled on the brakes and then jumped, the wheels would have slid along the rails and actually increased in speed like a sled rather than slowing down. With him at the controls, he could apply and release the brakes to slow the engine more quickly, while dumping sand on the tracks all the while, and thus not putting the train into a slide. This puts to rest the myth that Casey could have applied the brakes once and jumped to safety with a clear conscience." What is the source for Jones applying and releasing the brakes repeatedly? He was not driving a car, where it used to be (before antilock brakes) a good practice to pump the brakes. Train brakes do not work that fast. I have read an account by fireman Webb wherein there is no mention of Jones releasing and reapplying the brakes. Is this text sourced or is it conjecture? See "The Commercial Appeal" Title: CASEY STORY ALIVE AND CHUGGING \ 100-YEAR-OLD CRASH RECALLED. Author: Bill Dries The Commercial Appeal ate: April 30, 2000 Section: Metro Page: B1 which quotes a 1937 interview of Webb by journalist Ernie Pyle. Webb just said Jones applied the brakes. If he came around a curve and saw the stopped train, how much time did he have, and how long would it take to apply and release the brakes? Why would the train have gained speed (contrary to Newton's laws of motion) while sliding to a stop? (was it downhill?)Edison 00:13, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I have pulled the controversial paragraph until I can provide better documentation for its claims. But I am sure that the wheels would hydroplane badly on the wet rails and that repeat application of the brakes would be needed. This is info I got from some veteran railroaders/Casey Jones buffs (one of whom is a conductor of a working steam engine) who have discussed the famous wreck in-depth. Sim Webb would not be aware of any repeated braking as he jumped very shortly after sighting the red lights of the looming caboose. I have tried my best to be fair and accurate in stating the facts. His speed in coming into Vaughan is now reported as being 75 mph, not 70 mph as a previous writer stated and I changed that to 75 mph. I also quashed the myth of "Ole 382" being Casey's assigned engine (it wasn't). And I added the sentence about his 9 citations and 145 days total suspension as well. So there has been no conscious burnishing of his legend in my case. But I did want to give him a "brake" based on the info I received. I know it conflicts with the Water Valley Museum which believes that he braked once. I need to find out what SOP for emergency braking was in these cases. Thanks for your interest in this matter. Homedepotov 21:41, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Repeated application and release of the train's air brakes would probably use up all the available air, especially considering the relatively inefficient air pumps available at the time, meaning that the brakes would stick in the 'on' position, at least for a while. Leaks in the system would then allow the brakes to come off, and be rendered useless. The system would need to be recharged before the brakes would become operative again, which could take some time, and would require the complete release of the brakes, allowing the train to speed up.

If the brakes were tread brakes, as opposed to disc brakes, and they most certainly were, then the water would have also interfered with the brakeblock/wheel interface as well as the wheel/rail interface, reducing the effectiveness of the brakes, but making the wheels less likely to lock up.

Whatever, remaining with the locomotive and trying to at least reduce the train's speed, was a brave thing to do. Rayhol 20:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Train Braking Innacuracies

Given Westinghouse automatic air brake tecnology of 1900, there is absolutely no way Casey would have "pumped" the brakes and he never would have made such a foolish move. Even if you accept that Flagman Newberry had been properly positioned to flag Casey 3,000 feet from the the rear of Train No. 83, at 75 MPH, Casey would have less than 30 seconds to react. Initiating an engineer-induced emergency application of the train brakes from the locomotive brake valve would have reduced brake pipe pressure to zero and applied the train brakes on the cars. In order to "release" this applicatoin, Casey would have had to release the brakes by restoring sufficient brake pipe pressure throughout all six cars to allow the respective control valves on each car to sense another brake pipe reduction.

Further, Casey's speed at the point of derailment is presumed to have been approximately 35 MPH indicating he had been successful in scrubbing off over 35 MPH in a distance of less than 3,000 (even less if you presume he never saw/heard Flagman Newberry). There would not appear to be any physical way this could have occurred with the train brake being released at any point.

With respect to hydroplaining, contrary to the analogy to anti-lock brakes and depictions of train braking in movies, the weight and braking charastics of 1900 era heavy weight passenger cars would not have slid the wheels when applied in emrgency at 75 MPH. While they MAY have slid as the speed decreased, releasing at that point would have been the last thing an engineer would have done as there would have been no time to recharge/reapply. In addition, the atmospheric condition (raining/misting) would have had minimal affect on the braking characteristics. The head of the rail is only a few inches wide and rounded so it does not hold water as a roadway tends to do. The wheel treads, while wet, are in centrifugal rotation and do not hold water as an automobile tire tends to do. At 70+MPH wheel treads would dry almost immediately with an emergency brake application. While there may be a theoretical reduction in braking capability, without snow, or freezing conditions, it would have been virtually imperceptable on a train consisting of six heavy weight passenger cars--and certainly orders of magnitude less than the braking capacity he would have lost by releasing and reapplying the brakes.

It is far more logical to presume Casey "dynamited" his locomotive, placing the automatic brake valve handle into emergency position, placing the Johnson Bar (reversing lever) into reverse, opening the throttle so that the main drivers reversed, and applying sand. As the train slowed, it would not have been unreasonable to speculate that Casey may have felt the rate of deceleration was sufficient to make the collision survivable and feeling that remaining in the locomotive cab provided an acceptable condition. Jumping from a locomotive cab at high speed is not anyone's first choice if there are options. As he was on the outside of the curve (the engineers positoin is on the right hand side of the cab and the train was operatnig around a long left hand curve), he also may not have known the exact location of No. 83's caboose and felt he had more time/distance. In the dark, red signals tend to look further away than they actually are. Once he saw the position of the caboose, he may have felt he was in a better position to brace himself and ride it out than to take the chance of being on the walkway between the cab and tender if the collisoin occured before he had time to jump. —Preceding unsigned comment added by REB281 (talk • contribs) 03:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Train brakes of the Casey Jones era are discussed in detail in [3] pages 240-241, which is "The Locomotive Catechism: Containing Nearly 1,300 Questions and Answers" By Robert Grimshaw, 1893. It just says apply the emergency brakes, not any reference is seen to "pumping" them. I agree with the previous poster, REB281., that pumping the brakes would have been unwise and inappropriate, and would have increased the stopping distance. Edison (talk) 05:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Joe Hill version of song

The text in the article states:

• Joe Hill used Jones as an anti-hero in his parody song "Casey Jones, the Union Scab", later sung by Harry McClintock and Utah Phillips, among others. It is this version which contains the line "you got another papa on the Salt Lake Line," which Mrs. Jones found so objectionable. This version of the song was adapted by Joe Hill for striking shop crews on the Southern Pacific Railroad; he found it a useful source, since the SP engineers had refused to come out in support of the shopmen. The reference to the "Salt Lake Line," along with references to the desirability of riding the Santa Fe and the Northern Pacific, are unsubtle references to the Southern Pacific's competitors.

Some of parts it (the stricken parts) are flatly wrong.

The song first gained widespread distribution in 1912 in the Little Red Songbook of the IWW. Here are links:

http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/parton/2/casey.html http://www.newyouth.com/archives/music/joehill.asp

I've heard the Joe Hill song for decades (i am a member of the IWW,) and have never heard the extra lyrics or references mentioned here.

If anyone questions this information, i'd be happy to put out the word to have someone directly check the original songbook for that year.

Richard Myers 09:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Proposed split

The Jones as folk hero in art section is becoming overwhelming, even with the information that is already split off to Casey Jones (disambiguation). With a section title like we're using, I would more expect to see a scholarly discussion of symbolism in using the name "Casey Jones" in popular culture rather than a trivia list of everywhere the name appears. As it is now, this section adds very little to the article itself; the list is already longer than the biography, and is very likely to be a great deal longer as more references to him are discovered/revealed.

So, I suggest that we split that section out to its own list page titled something like List of references to Casey Jones in popular culture. Such a title more accurately describes the content and we wouldn't have to patrol the list any more to remove items that are on the disambiguation page. Slambo (Speak) 15:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Hearing no objections after six days, I'm splitting the section out as proposed. Slambo (Speak) 20:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Done. Slambo (Speak) 21:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

So my split was reverted. Anyone care to discuss the issue here? Slambo (Speak) 21:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

And the revert was reverted. Unless there are any other objections, the split appears to stand. Slambo (Speak) 21:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Casey Jones in popular culture. The article which talked about the original song, the Joe Hill labor song, the obscene Army marching song (from World War 1, and from Officer and a Gentleman, the Disney cartoon, the TV show, and the Grateful Dead version are all gone from Wikipedia now. Those who look at AFD (deletion nominations) hate with a passion anything which ends with "in popular culture." Unless that article is restored by the deleting administrator (becasue there was really no consensus to delete) or by DRV (deletion review), there needs to be a section added in this article covering those cultural references. Otherwise, he would probably not be entitled to a Wikipedia article, because as it is left, it is a memorial article to someone who died in an industrial accident, as did hundreds of thousands of other workers in the history of the US. Edison 22:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

There needs to be a section on at least the song, without which he would be known only to his descendants and extreme railroad buffs. Edison 14:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

In the entry I posed (for which someone posted a comment on my Usertalk page), I added a version of the lyrics which was contrived by my brother and sister and me, when we were kids. If there was any outside source I don't know about it; that's been about 50 years and none of us would remember. As noted, I also posted it on [www.amiright.com] . Dougie monty 21:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Engine No. 638

Was that a 2-8-0 engine? Seems like a good place for a link. Here is a possible picture. Also, if anyone knows the configuration of No 382, it'd be interesting to train buffs. John Duncan 01:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The picture you mention is the only one in existence of Casey Jones in the cab of a train. The man standing in the gangway is his fireman and friend John Wesley McKinnie. Homedepotov (talk) 03:36, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Casey's Fame

I provided a reference for the statement that Casey Jones is the world's most famous railroad engineer. I didn't feel it was necessary as it is pretty obvious that he is, but two people have challenged the use of the absolute qualifier. If you were to take a worldwide poll as to who was the world's most famous engineer, I think Casey Jones would actually be the ONLY name mentioned. Ask any hard-core railroad buffs and I bet no other name comes up either. Here's what the Casey Jones Museum in Jackson, Tennessee had to say about the centennial of the Casey Jones wreck in 2000: "We have received a great deal of interest in the celebration of the centennial of Casey Jones' wreck from both the media and the general public. We have done interviews with UPI, the Farmers Almanac, The Discovery Channel and the BBC concerning the Casey Jones story and the 100th anniversary. American History magazine featured the Casey Jones story in its December 1999 issue. ABC's Good Morning America has also expressed a strong interest in covering this story. TRAINS magazine, the premier publication for railroad enthusiasts, is planning a major tribute to Casey Jones in April 2000. Railfan & Railroad magazine is also planning coverage of the 100th Anniversary. In addition, the Casey Jones story and anniversary will be the focal point for a major media blitz in the German, Austrian and Swiss travel markets in February 2000. We expect this interest to continue on both the national and international scale." Has any other railroad engineer ever received such enduring international media attention? No. Has any other railroad engineer been the subject of a classic song that lives on 107 years after his death? No. Can anybody think of any other famous railroad engineers? No? Any other railroad engineers that have *2* museums in their honor? No. Case closed. 206.255.99.165 (talk) 19:16, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

"Casey Jones - Union Scab"?

There's a link to "Casey Jones - Union Scab". It's a dead link.

The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers did not consider Casey Jones a scab. Brother Jones was a member in good standing of BLE Division 99, Water Valley, Miss. at the time of his death.[4]. --John Nagle (talk) 20:13, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I have a version of the song, though it is just called "Casey Jones", but it refers to him being a scab. There are two similar versions of the song both of which call him a scab. Could it possible be a different Casey Jones or what? Lyrics [5] and [6]. --anonymous 01:24, 10 February 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.207.70.155 (talk)

It is a fictional Casey Jones in the song you mention. Casey was staunchly pro-union and was no scab. In the famous song by The Grateful Dead called "Casey Jones" he was portrayed as "Driving that train high on cocaine!" So you can basically make up songs using Casey Jones' name for any purpose and twist his character and life story to please you. Homedepotov (talk) 18:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

So is there no evidence that Casey Jones was anti-union other than this song? So what might have motivated the songwriter to suggest he was a scab? Or are there some other stories that indicate he was a strike-breaker?

Baptism section unnecessary

Do we really need a baptism section in a biography? If so, should we have a section about his first day of school too? —Voidxor (talk) 05:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Look at the date. He was baptized as an adult, presumably in preparation for his marriage two weeks later. Maybe it should be merged into the next section. J S Ayer (talk) 17:03, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

The Baptism section has been merged with the Marriage section. This seems logical as Jones got baptized preparatory to marriage. 155.76.162.253 (talk) 19:39, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Date of birth?

This article now says Casey Jones was born in 1863. This page has a photograph of a stone monument that says it was 1864. Michael Hardy (talk) 15:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, I found it; this is covered in the article. Michael Hardy (talk) 23:07, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Casey Jones in popular culture

The lasting legacy of Casey Jones -- in popular culture -- was diminished in this article when the sub article Casey Jones in popular culture was deleted in mid 2007. There was much useful information in it, some of which could be reintroduced into the article on this page. I've copied the deleted text below, with the hope that some of it can be distilled, brought up to wikipedia standards, and integrated into the Casey Jones article. -- ☑ SamuelWantman 17:26, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of the history, the music section is a mess. The Grateful Dead song is is mentioned three different times, once as being recorded in 1969, once as "In the 70's". The Ballad of Casey Jones is a song that they played live, but it wasn't "recorded" in the sense that there is a studio version; there is a live version that was recorded. I think it's better to say that it's a song that they played live. Drbeechwood (talk) 15:54, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

The American railroad engineer Casey Jones has become well known in American folklore as an engineer who died in the course of duty. References to Casey Jones include:

In music

• In the AC/DC song "What's Next to the Moon", a railroad engineer is mentioned to be "dreaming about Casey Jones".
• Joe Hill — a member of, and songwriter for the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW) — used Jones as an anti-hero in his parody song "Casey Jones, the Union Scab," later sung by Harry McClintock and Utah Phillips, among others. This version of the song was adapted by Joe Hill for striking shop crews on the Southern Pacific Railroad; the SP engineers had refused to stop work in support of the shopmen. The term "union scab" acknowledges a philosophical difference between the craft unionism of the American Federation of Labor, and the industrial unionism of the IWW.
• There are several other versions of the tale of Casey Jones recorded into song, including not only the original song credited to Saunders, but also a version entitled "The Ballad of Casey Jones" written by Mississippi John Hurt, and performed by, among others, the Jerry Garcia Acoustic Band and the David Nelson Band. Folk artist Dave Van Ronk has a song entitled "Casey Jones" on the album Somebody Else, Not Me. The Grateful Dead's well known "Casey Jones," on Workingman's Dead, has totally different music and lyrics from the original. The punk band This Bike is a Pipe Bomb also has a song entitled "Casey Jones" which appears on the album Three Way Tie For a Fifth.
• In "Southern Pacific," Neil Young reflects on a railroad engineer named "Mr Jones," but in this song, Jones escapes the tragic heroism of his legendary namesake only to end up at age 65 being forced into retirement by the railroad company: "It was 'Mr. Jones, we got to let you go. It's company policy. You got a pension, though."
• In 1946, the Delmore Brothers wrote and recorded "Freight Train Boogie," a song about Casey Jones.
• Casey Jones is mentioned several times in "April the 14th" and "Ruination Day," songs on Gillian Welch's album Time (The Revelator), released in 2001.
• Johnny Cash performed a song entitled "Casey Jones", describing Jones' fateful trip.
• There is a hardcore band called xCASEY JONESx or just Casey Jones.

File:Casey Jones 1958.JPG

Alan Hale Jr. as Casey Jones

File:Casey Jones RGB.JPG

Casey Jones, as he appeared in "The Real Ghostbusters"

• A folksong starting "Casey Jones was a son of a bitch, drove his train into a forty foot ditch" was included in the movie An officer and a gentleman. and was recorded by Ron and the Rude Boys.

On television

• An American TV series titled "Casey Jones," loosely based on his life and starring Alan Hale Jr., was produced in 1957. The producers and writers of the show took a few liberties with the facts. For example, Casey's wife was now named "Alice", instead of "Janie", they had a son, "Casey Jr." who rode with his father in the cab and his engine was now number 1, instead of 382 or 638 as in real life. Also, instead of the Illinois Central, Casey worked for the fictional "Transcontinental Railroad Co." In other words, it is not at all based on the life of Casey Jones.
• An episode of the animated series the Real Ghostbusters, entitled "Last Train To Oblivion" (airdate: 11/24/1987), features the ghost of Casey Jones trying to prevent a railway accident in order to atone for the wreck which took his life.
• The stationmaster in the American television series Shining Time Station, was named Stacy Jones as an homage to the folklore legend.
• A sketch from the children's program Sesame Street was inspired by Jones. The segment, entitled "The Ballad of Casey McPhee," features Cookie Monster as a brave engineer who "must get his train through."
• A vigilante crime-fighter character named "Casey Jones" also appears in the animated series Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

File:Casey McPhee.JPG

Cookie Monster as "Casey McPhee"

thumb|Disney's "The Brave Engineer"

In film

• On March 3 1950, Disney Studios released a short cartoon titled The Brave Engineer about Casey Jones. Narrated by madcap comic Jerry Colonna, the film depicts Casey's attempts to prevail over floods, train robbers, mechanical failure (he pushes his locomotive so hard that it literally begins to fall apart) and other hazards in an attempt to get his mail train through, ultimately culminating in the accident (here depicted as a head-on, rather than a rear-ending). Unlike real life, however, the cartoon ends with Jones having survived the collision to bring (what's left of) his train in almost on time.
• The nom de guerre "Casey Jones" was given to the leader of "trains" of enemy MiG-15s taking off from the Chinese side of the Yalu River in the Korean War movie The Hunters.
• The 1941 Disney film Dumbo features a circus train named Casey, Jr. (or Casey Jones, Jr.)
• Casey Jr. Circus Train is an attraction featured at Disneyland and Disneyland Paris.
• In the 1982 film An Officer and a Gentleman, Gunnery Sergeant Emil Foley (Louis Gossett Jr.) sings a vulgar cadence referring to Casey Jones' sexual exploits while punishing Zack Mayo (Richard Gere).
• Casey Jones is the name of a character played by Ariel Teal Toombs in the 2007 film "Beverly Hills Massacre."
• Casey Jones is the name of a character in the teenage mutant ninja turtles movie, wearing a hockey mask.

On postage stamps

• Jones' picture appeared on a 1950 United States postage stamp honoring railroad engineers.

In computer and video games

• In Railroad Tycoon II Platinum, typing in 'Casey Jones' causes the other players' trains to crash.

See also

• Casey Jones (disambiguation)

Categories

• Category:People in rail transport|Jones, Casey
• Category:Rail transport related lists
• Category:Industrial Workers of the World|Jones, Casey
• Category:In popular culture

Unsourced speculation about flagman

There was too much unsourced speculation about the position of the flagman adn what Webb could or could not see. It appears that much was written about this, so editors have to cite RS and add sources in order to expand this section. Other mentions of "some historians" thought this and others that need to be supported by identifying which historians thought which, with cites, or it can all be deleted. No doubt there are sources, so these need to be added to support an expansion of this section; otherwise it sounds like OR - Original Research.Parkwells (talk) 17:35, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Edited for more neutral tone

This is not supposed to be hagiography. Make more encyclopedic and factual in tone.Parkwells (talk) 17:37, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

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What was IC box car 11380?

And why was it worth more than most of the other cars, almost quadruple the price of the freakin' engine? This is going to bug me forever. Can anyone clarify what IC box car 11380 was? I've tried googling it but all I get is Wikipedia and copypastes of Wikipedia. :( 124.190.207.57 (talk) 17:18, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

This article reads more like a story than an encyclopedia entry?

I do not see how "This article reads more like a story than an encyclopedia entry". Maybe whoever put that claim can provide specific examples. 79.150.173.134 (talk) 13:11, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Barring that, compare the present article with the June 2014 version that the tag was originally to. Even so, if the present version now has encyclopedic style (did some February 2015 edit fix it?), then the tag can be removed. See what the Template:Story documentation instructions say. See if the original tagger is still active. IveGoneAway (talk) 19:11, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

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Songs: the Joe Hill version

The Casey Jones#Casey Jones references in music section is misleading: Pete Seeger and Leonid Utyosov both sang Joe Hill’s lyrics. Those three should really be reason enough to spin off the single paragraph about this version into its separate page (as is the case with Casey Jones (song) by the Grateful Dead), but in the meantime, I’m going to try and move things around in the section here. If somebody can find them in a library, sources like "Casey Jones": At the Crossroads of Two Ballad Traditions and On the Wobbly "Casey Jones" and Other Songs might provide a more scholarlike point of view than the current rhetoric of the article. --92.195.91.95 (talk) 10:38, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Upon further research, there is already an article for this version, just not with a very findable name: Casey Jones—the Union Scab. --92.195.91.95 (talk) 11:05, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

exact location of crash?

The article mentions the site of the crash at "two-tenths of a mile north of Tucker's Creek". Is there any sort of monument there? And while we're at it, exactly where is/was the crash site? I can't find anything near Vaughan, Miss. called Tucker's Creek. Elsquared (talk) 06:56, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

According to the article on Vaughan, Mississippi, the marker is missing but the original support post is still there, at coordinates 32.816590°N 90.038428°W. I verified it on Google Earth. Elsquared (talk) 21:59, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Rescue of a child from the tracks

This entire section is ref'd way below our standards, is quite possibly not true, and needs to be removed. I've tagged it for now.

The two refs are a biography by his "biographer and friend" (emphasis added) Fred J. Lee. Whether Lee just got the tale from Jones or elsewhere, I don't know (the book is obscure and long out of print I think), but we can be certain it wasn't independently fact-checked. Here, an entity called LibraryThing (which looks like a legit operation) says "Despite the claim that this is the 'true story' of Casey, it is a work of fiction... Lee [does] not know the difference between truth and fiction". They eviscerate the book at length. That could be some random mook writing, but it's not a good look.

The other ref is a website for what looks to be a pretty amateur-grade and boosterish local museum probably not curated to the level of genuine museums. It's open for two hours on Friday and two more on Saturday... No sub-page is given, and there're too many to check, but a cursory look doesn't find any instances of "child" or "rescue" in the main page, nor any sub-page titles that look likely. Until someone digs it out and maybe finds a pointer to an actually reliable ref (if one exists, which would... astonish me), it's not a good ref. Here is a more current version of the website than what's used in the article. (That website is cited 26 times in this article, but that doesn't make it more reliable.)

Sorry. We all like Casey and it's a nice story, and maybe it belongs in some compilation of tall tales or something, but not in an encyclopedia. Absent cogent objection, I propose to remove the section. Herostratus (talk) 00:18, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

• This museum's website is clearly not a reliable source. (It's hard to find much of the stuff cited to the site, but most of it can be found on, or linked from, this page [7].) Most or all the material cited to it needs to be removed. WRT the rescue of the girl, here's a random point showing how sloppy it is: Jones shouted to Stevenson to reverse the train and yelled to the girl to get off the tracks in almost the same breath. Aside from the hokey drama ("almost the same breath"), anyone who knows anything about railroading knows that if you need to stop quickly you don't reverse the wheels (even if this was possible in such a short time -- much less "reverse the train") because then the wheels are slipping against the tracks, instead of rolling, and you lose braking capacity. Whoever wrote that has no idea what they're talking about. EEng 05:04, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

British Rail Burgers

In the UK there used to be a chain of burger-and-fries takeaways called "Casey Jones" on railway stations in the very late 80s/very early 90s (yeah, you had to be pretty hungry or drunk, and in a hurry to catch your train). By 1994 they had converted into a semi-autonomous chain of Burger Kings, which served the normal Burger King menu but didn't accept Burger King vouchers (one of those slow, phased integrations of restaurant/coffee shop chains, I guess). I guess they became fully integrated Burger Kings after that. Might be worth posting if somebody has a source.

I had no idea what the name meant until I chanced on this article just now while watching "The Fugitive". No such thing as useless knowledge, eh?Paulturtle (talk) 20:47, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

I had almost forgotten (fortunately). A little InterCity 125 trip down Memory Mainline? More delicious detail at Arthur Pewty's Maggot Sandwich. Warning: these sources may not be WP:RS. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:23, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Paulturtle: @Martinevans123: I was just beginning to wonder whether this is the Casey Jones after whom the burger chain is named, considering that my memory is of them being stalls at London railway stations. The pages you link to don't seem to shed much light, though the second one indicates that it was a British Rail operation and so it's plausible that it was named after a railway engineer. But ... why would BR have named a business operation after an American engineer, who doesn't (by a quick scan of this article) appear to have had any involvement with British railways? In any case, it would be good if we could find some more information about this. — Smjg (talk) 09:37, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Refocusing the Lead Section?

I was unfamiliar with this story, and find this article doesn't really explain what was so notable about his life, besides the media venerating him after the fact. The very beginning reads like he was just a railroader who died in a crash, not until the very last sentence does it say "All are agreed, however, that Jones managed to avert a potentially disastrous crash through his exceptional skill at slowing the engine and saving the lives of the passengers at the cost of his own." Reading the details of the story however, it seems like a situation he had caused in the first place by speeding and trying to make up those 75 minutes.

Maybe at this point in history it would be better acknowledge some of the books, songs and films about him were ahistorical, and to focus this article towards Casey Jones, the pop culture figure whose real train crash spun into a number of tall tales, instead of Casey Jones, the historical figure who may or may not have saved people from a situation he may or may not have been able to avoid. Something like "Casey Jones was a railroader ... whose death in a crash in 1900 inspired a number of songs and films hailing him as a hero, most notably the traditional American folk song "The Ballad of Casey Jones"" Jjollyy (talk) 14:59, 24 February 2024 (UTC)