Talk:Carlisle Indian Industrial School

Hyde article: where is the citation?

The first quotation in the article which has the footnote "2" cites the reference at the bottom that cites an article by Hyde from 1979 but it does not appear in the reference list. Was it deleted? 169.232.228.209 (talk) 02:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)Moebius

Pratt "facts"?

The term Buffalo Soldiers was used AFTER the civil war. I check Buffalo Soldiers by Leikie and found references to Lt. Pratt. He did not seem to command a regiment, at best with his rank he might have commanded a company. In Sept 1874 Lt. Pratt was in command of a group of 40 Indian Scouts as part of a large operation out of Ft. Still by the 10th Cavalry. In 1874 Scouts were enlisted in the Army which does not make them soldiers for hire. On the other hand, non-native american scouts were civilian contractors which would qualify as mercenaries.

This pre Carlisle history of Pratt at first glance seems reasonable when it comes to who, when, where. http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/PP/fpr33.html

 --Rcollman 13:21, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes that is correct Buffalo Soldier is a term that was used after the Civil War. However, you failed to point out that the Native Americans did fight in the Civil War. Also Buffalo Soldier was the name in which Captain Pratt commanded, he had an extremely extensive background in the Military; which would explain the militaristic style education that the Native children received.

Here is a link to prove this information: http://www.buffalosoldier.net/CaptainRichardH.Pratt.htm

The article also states, with a dubious source, that "only 158 students graduated". The assertion that this is throughout the 39 years of the school operation. The source itself states that this was during the 24 years of Pratt's administration - but does not indicate where the 158 number was obtained. Simple logic would suggest that out of 10,000 attendees, to have only 158 complete the education is highly suspect, to say the least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.83.247.215 (talk) 20:44, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Nowhere in the article is the obvious point made regarding the Carlisle School, that being the failure of this school was directly attributed to the fact that the Indian was inside the Indian. "Kill the Indian in him, and save the man," was Colonel Pratt's stated goal. Again, it failed because the Indian was inside the Indian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.117.57.158 (talk) 19:08, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Possible copyright violation

Prior to my edits today, the American Football section was substantially similar to http://www.andrewdabb.com/nafootball.pdf

The pdf, however, has footnotes for sources, while the setion in the article did not. Until I can find something more substantial either way, I am trimming this section to bare facts.

Prior to the edits, it read:

"In 1892, when the Carlisle Indian School fielded its first football team, no one could have predicted that, in less than ten years, the Indians would become one of the dominant college football powers in the nation. From 1899 to 1913, they regularly beat traditional powerhouses of the time like Harvard, Yale and Army, while producing no less than twenty-one All-American players. The Carlisle Indians (the name of the team, not a generalization about the school’s students) first organized to play football in 1892 against local high school teams. But a broken leg to one of the players in their first game led Richard Henry Pratt to disband the team, and they did not reform until 1894, at the request of a student group. Pratt had reinstated the school’s football program partly due to student demand and partly due to his own beliefs about the acculturation it could bring. To him, football represented the white American value system. It taught teamwork, sportsmanship, discipline and precision, traits a military man like Pratt held in high regard. It emphasized fitness and self-control, and it promoted the very American idea of “winning”. But by 1898 it was also bringing recognition to the school. Sportswriters around the country praised the Indians for their sportsmanship and good, clean play. For Pratt, the football team was a shining example of the success of the boarding school programs. The Indians were able to beat white teams because they themselves were becoming culturally white. He was making true on his promise to “Kill the Indian and save the man.” Carlisle was also benefiting monetarily from the team. The Indians were such a draw that schools like Harvard and Yale regularly paid the school purses of $5,000 to $15,000 for a game. This money was used to provide perks for the players and enhance aspects of the school. Because of all the good the team was doing for the school, Pratt sought to improve it, and that led him to bring in a new coach, "Pop" Warner, in 1899. Under Warner, the Carlisle Indians, led by Jim Thorpe, would reach their peak and become a national phenomenon and bring the school nationwide attention." Mdbrownmsw 18:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Additional research finds more of the text from the first article was copied from http://home.epix.net/%7Elandis/histry.html

All text from the first author of the article has been removed. Should resolve copyvio concerns.

Mdbrownmsw 21:06, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Abuse

I have reverted a change to the abuse section back to: "Hundreds of children died at Carlisle.[5] While some died from diseases foreign to Native American’s immune systems (tuberculosis, pneumonia, smallpox, etc.) others died while attempting to escape from the school or from physical, emotional and sexual abuse or malnutrition"

The change had said that "Over a hundred died..." and "Most died from diseases...". This is probably due to a misreading of the source. The cemetary is said to have 175 graves and close to 150 died of diseases. However, of those who died, the source says, "most" were sent home for burial. So, the number that died, while unknown, is in excess of 350 (175 graves + over 176 ("most") sent home for burial). Mdbrownmsw 15:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

"Inmates". Students of the Carsile School were refered to as inmates. ( Adams County News (Gettysburg, Pennsylvania) February 14, 1914, date 1914, Society of American Indian Papers, Reel 8, Part II, Series 1, correspondence, U. S. Investigates Carlisle Scandal , Flogging.
"Forced Labor, paid, but money was stolen" (Adams County News (Gettysburg, Pennsylvania) January 16, 1915 [ancestry.com, historical newspapers], Say They Burned Public Records, Burned public records" during an investigation of "student accounts ) The "students/inmates", were farmed out to local businesses to earn money. The school would pilfer from their earnings, for expenses the "school" incurred on their behalf, in taking them from their families by force. The specific allegation is that these receipts were burned on or about the 10th of March, 1914. Both are jointly indicted on four counts in the second indictment. It is alleged that it was their duty, the indictment says, to take care of moneys belonging to the students until such time as they were needed for payment of the expenses incurred by these students in traveling from their homes in remote parts of the United States to Carlisle. So, basically, the School was STEALING from the "students", and only investigated when the school staff was caught stealing on top of the government stealing. Washington, May 13.-Oscar H. Lipps, who has been the supervisor in charge at the Carlisle Indian School since Moses P. Friedman was dismissed was appointed superintendent of the school yesterday by Cato Sells, Indian Commissioner. Friedman Goes Free Former Head of Carlisle School Acquitted of Graft Charges In U. S. Court. Dr. Friedman was acquitted and completely vindicated of the charges brought against him by a prompt decision of the jury at the June session of the Federal Court at Williamsport. Chief clerk Nori, who testified against him at the trial was sent to the penitentiary. ....Charges have been preferred to Congress that under the management of Superintendent Friedman loose morals prevailed in the school, and that many Indian girls sent there for instruction came to moral grief. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:14F:8200:36CB:B57D:6CA2:5062:AE1B (talk) 18:41, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

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Need more sources and context

While there are a number of references, quotes in the article about conditions at the school come mostly from one source, leading to POV. There is no attempt to provide context for why people thought the school could do something positive, however misguided some of the approach may have been.--Parkwells (talk) 12:58, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

There were real abuses at Indian boarding schools, but much is conflated in this article. It relies too heavily on quotes from a review essay on Ann Rinaldi's children's book My Heart Is on the Ground. The quotes are drawn from numerous accounts of all Indian boarding schools, not just Carlisle, so it is difficult to know whether quotes apply to that school or others. It would be better for editors to go to the original sources, so that people know where the information is coming from and what it references.--Parkwells (talk) 13:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

It is inappropriate in this article to use quotes that refer to events at schools other than Carlisle; that would be ok for a general article about Indian boarding schools. Much of the regimen was similar, but sources should deal with this school. Material dealing with experiences at other schools was deleted.--Parkwells (talk) 00:48, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Assessment

Due to this schools importance in national history, I am giving it High-importance for WikiProject Schools. Camaron · Christopher · talk 17:48, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Citizenship

The section on citizenship is lifted virtually verbatim from the longer article on Native Americans. I think this article should stick to the facts and discussion of the Carlisle School.Parkwells (talk) 17:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Richard Henry Pratt

The discussion is too long about his experience at Fort Marion, which is covered in the article by that name. It should focus on what he thought he learned and what he volunteered to do for the gov't with an Indian school.Parkwells (talk) 18:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Indian Affairs Reports...

There were historical reports to congress. If you'd like to be horrified, look at what they admitted doing at the school. Especially interesting is how they farmed the kids out to local businesses, then used the money to fund the school, then put aside some into private bank accounts, but still skimmed from that as well. I caught that as well. The phrase from the first page said the following: Students also learned trade and work skills such as farming and manufacturing Seriously? They were rented out to the farmers and exploited to help make some families rich, and the money was deposited into accounts, in the DILLSBURG private bank, where very little, if any of the funds were given back to the kids. Please read the Congressional Indian reports, on the Carlisle School. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.207.167.148 (talk) 21:07, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

POV

In its current state, this article reads like a recruiting poster for the school. I pulled phrases like "Carlisle was a unique school and produced a new generation of Native American leadership" and "Attending Carlisle is considered by many Native Americans like going to Harvard, Yale or Oxford" that were repeated over and over. More needs to be culled and information about the very real human violations that occurred at Carlisle need to restored. It's going to be a challenge because the article is so verbose and redundant. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:22, 2 November 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Agree. It has gotten very strange and much like an anecdotal essay about the early years and first students. I thought the previous article needed more context for issues like discipline, children working, fatalities due to disease, but this seems over the top in another direction.Parkwells (talk) 21:23, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your edits. When articles get this long and unwieldy, it's hard to know how to proceed! -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:06, 2 November 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Hi, glad to help. I'm struggling, too. Many sections sound like lengthy unattributed quotes, and then there are the credited ones - overused, I think. Also, they are mostly about the beginning.Parkwells (talk) 22:34, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I've added a paragraph to the Lead that at least touches on the controversial aspects of these schools. I think it is worthwhile to note that many founders and teachers' intentions were good, but they also did damage which some Native Americans have identified. Very complex. Much of the Wild Westing material is in the article by that name, and to Buffalo Bill's article.Parkwells (talk) 13:36, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your most welcome comments and edits. Richlevine00 (talk) 14:51, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

21st century Wild Westing

The following belongs with articles about the Buffalo Bill and his Wild West shows, not here. I've deleted it from the article and am moving it to the one on Buffalo Bill.Parkwells (talk) 22:34, 2 November 2013 (UTC)<<== 21st-century Wild Westing and Powwows == Some Oglala Lakota people carry on family show business traditions from Carlisle alumni who worked for Buffalo Bill and other Wild West shows. Americans and Europeans continue to have a great interest in Native peoples and enjoy powwows. Americans and Europeans continue to enjoy traditional Native Americans skills; horse culture, ceremonial dancing and cooking; and buying Native American art, music and crafts. There are several on-going national projects that celebrate Wild Westers and Wild Westing. Wild Westers still perform in movies, powwows, pageants and rodeos.

The National Museum of American History's Photographic History Collection at the Smithsonian Institution preserves and displays Gertrude Käsebier's photographs. Michelle Delaney has published “Buffalo Bill’s Wild West Warriors: Photographs by Gertrude Käsebier".>>Parkwells (talk) 22:34, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Great idea. Richlevine00 (talk) 14:55, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

References

Photos

I haven't read this article in depth as of yet, but it looks like someone put a lot of work into it. My only suggestion is that the many interesting photos might be better collected into a "gallery" section rather than running down the right margin. PurpleChez (talk) 20:32, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

There is an excellent photograph of the school's "students", circa 1900, to be found on Wikipedia's American Indian boarding schools page. I leave questions of why the photograph isn't used here alone. IMHO, it should be.174.130.72.24 (talk) 19:00, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

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Thorpe against Harvard

The article states that "Thorpe scored all the points; a touchdown, an extra point, and four field goals". The score of that game was 18 - 15. Has anyone noticed that this does not add up to 18 points? I seem to recall that at some point a touchdown was worth only 5 points, and that may have been the rule at that point. That would account for the 18 points, but the article does not say so. Can someone research that and make a correction? - Buck49

Note: The article on Jim Thorpe mentions a touchdown and four field goals, but does not mention an extra point. Perhaps that is the answer.

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Edits to remove white-centric bias

I agree with editor 131.252.53.138 that the below edit (appropriately revised, e.g. link "cultural leg of genocide" to Cultural genocide) needs to be made in order to "remove white-centric bias that framed the settler perspective as inherently accurate while Ignoring the native one that we still remember in our communities today." It is disappointing but not surprising (given WP:BIAS across Wikipedia articles; see e.g. Colonialism reverts) that longtime editor and credentialed though controversial historian User:Rjensen never sought to resolve this issue since the original edit of 2013, but then quickly reverted it for bureaucratic reasons (WP:PLEASEDISCUSS) when good-faith edits were made. I believe User:Rjensen must either undo this revert or put some time in removing the white-centric bias himself.

Original: Pratt's approach was harsh but an alternative to the commonly-held goal of extermination of Native Americans. A positive outcome of a Carlisle education was the student's increased multilingualism.

Revision: Pratt's efforts exhibited the cultural leg of genocide, paired with the direct and indirect physical slaughter happening otherwise . some of the kids learned English while managing to retain their own languages, instead of losing them entirely as planned.

Imagine&Engage (talk) 14:42, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

References

Carlisle Indian School Cemetery

An important edition to this wiki would be a section on the cemetery that currently exists at the US army war college that houses the remains of the children who were too sick to travel back to their reservations. The Cemetery has a particularly interesting history as when it was moved for construction by the US army the remains were mishandled which make repatriation exceedingly difficult. The inclusion of this information may also be beneficial for families searching for relatives who may still be buried in Carlisle 

sources: (n.d.). Retrieved November 12, 2020, from http://carlisleindian.dickinson.edu/cemetery-information/resources

Indianz. (2018, August 13). U.S. Army looking for families of children buried at boarding school. Retrieved November 12, 2020, from https://www.indianz.com/News/2018/08/13/us-army-looking-for-families-of-children.asp — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charr page (talk • contribs) 15:21, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Where is the categorization of this page, please?

I don't see any categories on this page. I'm trying to find other pages about Indian Schools. . J. S. Smith (talk) 10:19, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

How is “graduate” defined?

The claim of only 158 students graduating needs clarification on what graduating means here, as well as a better source than an opinion article that doesn’t cite its source for that claim. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 02:01, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Education

There is practically no discussion of the quality of the "education" provided to the inmates. There is also little discussion on the ages of the inmates nor the length of their stay. The Learning Company has a course (24 lectures on Native American history) in which the lecturer claims that the goal of the school was to "educate" the girls into servants and the boys into agricultural laborers, although some learned (whether the school aided or squelched these kids' self-education is another (unanswerable?) question) enough reading and arithmetic to become bookkeepers. This needs to be put into its historical context: what were most white schools doing? were they sending out their "students" to serve in (rich) families homes and work in the fields? The term "slave labor" seems appropriate. This school was, almost certainly, a horrible place. Regardless of the "Progressive" motivations, the ability and willingness of the federal, dominantly Christian White, government to protect these children, it did not prevent pervasive abuse - by staff, other students, and the people who "rented" these boys and girls out. Given the history of the Indian Commissions, this should surprise no one. This following is a section from Wikipedia's article on Pratt's first "school" experiment:"Pratt's experiences at Fort Marion [ed.1875] became the basis for his campaign to create American Indian boarding schools. Although these schools were supposedly for the purpose of educating native people, they became sites where native children were prohibited from speaking their languages or practicing their own religion. Many children were removed from their families forcibly or under threat of withholding food rations. [ed. note: the US government forced Am.Indians to live on land they couldn't farm and so forced them to depend on federal food rations which were often not forthcoming, and when available were NOT handed out by the Indian Agent equitably.] Children's letters home were censored, and many children were taken to agricultural labor camps over the summer, instead of being allowed to visit home. Many have accused American Indian boarding schools of countless abuses and violations of child labor laws, in addition to accusations of cultural genocide." This is OBVIOUS content for this article's lead!!!!174.130.72.24 (talk) 18:52, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Bias issue remains

The issue previously documented here with positive bias toward the school and a lack of Native American perspective remains. See the "Edits to remove white-centric bias" section, for example--this line, discussed there, still appears in the article: "Pratt's approach was harsh but an alternative to the commonly-held goal of extermination of Native Americans. A positive outcome of a Carlisle education was the student's increased multilingualism." Alyshkalia (talk) 19:23, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Frankly, both of those wordings from four years ago are terrible — painting a smiley face on forced cultural integration is one form of bias; characterizing it here as "cultural genocide" is another. I'll take a pop at it. Carrite (talk) 23:04, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Here's where I landed: "Pratt's approach was harsh but an alternative to the tendency towards physical extermination of Native Americans." No happy-smiley bullshit about "multilingualism." Carrite (talk) 23:10, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm gonna pull down the BIAS flag on the article, I don't see this content rising to that level. Throw it back up or WP:SOFIXIT if you differ. Carrite (talk) 23:12, 9 June 2024 (UTC)