Talk:Burke–Gilman Trail

Untitled

This is a great trail, I take it on the way to class for University of Washington --[128.208.96.113 03:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)] ___

Style notes

Summary: +, cite, so cl, rephrased; see Talk.
Expansion: Added verified relevant text and added citations, so cleaned up and rephrased as needed, per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (MoS). Existing writing was retained as much as could. Summary per Wikipedia:Edit summary legend. See also Talk:Seattle, Citing sources.

MoS recommends not linking year unless doing so is particularly important to the sense of the article.

Compass points do not have periods, as, for example neither does NATO or the element Al. [Chicago Style, Wikipedia Boxing the compass and Cardinal direction ]. The official designations on maps and on actual official street signs use the standard convention. The official designations in USPS addresses use the standard convention. Another way to think of this may be to consider the compass points as symbols ilke those of the Periodic Table.

Are the groups organizations of citizens (citizens groups--local NGOs), xor does some citizen own them (citizen's groups), xor do numbers of citizens own the groups (citizens's groups or citizens' groups)?

Delete <!-- comment --> in article when okay.
{{Citation needed}} <!-- comment --> is a placeholder in the text, since otherwise referenced AFAIK.
Bug: ref="multiple, burke", etc. DNF.
See "Style" section in Talk:Seattle, Citing sources

The footnote follows any punctuation after the section being supported with a citation--no space--as with the previous construction (Wikipedia:Footnotes).

With regard to "[c]urrently the trail runs", for smooth reading, the usual, expected construction is "a, b, and c", unless to some particular purpose.
What is the style requirement for changing to "through Seattle's nor[th]eastern neighborhoods"?
"--it's a railroad right-of-way" is purposeful foreshadowing, an elegant but informal segue flowing into the following paragraph. This construction purposefully picks up the thread begun in the summary paragraph.

With regard to "from Seattle's Gas Works Park to Kenmore's Tracy Owen Station," Wikipedia recommends maintaining internal links, "Kenmore's Tracy Owen Station".

--GoDot 06:33, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Accurate content, sufficiently significant content

Ref. for accurate distances {{Citation needed}} (not yet found) for Kenmore-Bothell link and mileage. "The Burke-Gilman Trail is a 17.7-mile" as 27 - 10 ?
Blyth Park, Daniel Gilman pages DNE. Can link when exist.

"[R]uns along the Fremont Cut, Lake Union, and through the UW campus. After passing U Village", series usually separated by commas, concluded with a single conjunction, (a, b, and c) unless to some particular prose purpose. "Through UW campus", since at least includes Health Sciences, stadium, Hec Ed, IMA; "passing U Village".

"[C]ontinuing through Kenmore to Bothell", to match with the first paragraph.
"--it's a" makes a segue.

"[C]onnecting between the Ballard Locks and downtown Ballard" is a useful piece of information that should be retained. Without it, of the three segments remaining before the trail in the city is complete,[1] only two are described. The transition to the second half of the paragraph no longer exists. The missing link is no longer defined.

A list of Seattle neighborhoods intersecting the Trail could be useful.

--GoDot 06:33, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Discrepancies and inaccuracies

After recent changes, this article:

1. Considers the Burke-Gilman to incorporate the Sammamish River Trail. I would argue that it is the Burke-Gilman to the point at which it becomes the Sammamish River Trail; it may be, physically, one trail, but at the point at which it switches names, the mileage count should be stopped. Hence it should not be called a 27-mile trail.

2. Says it begins at 8th Avenue NW; yet further down it notes the newest segment actually begins northwest of there, at 60th & Seaview.

3. Appears to be confused as to whether the trail ends in Kenmore or Bothell.

I would like it cleared up as to what the actual length of that part of the trail actually known as "Burke-Gilman" is, and what its endpoints are.

--Lukobe 21:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

However

For now:
1. Includes, does not incorporate: "in Redmond as".
"It is 14.1 mi (22.5 km) between 8th Ave NW, Ballard and Tracy Owen Station Kenmore [the original end of the B-G]. At Blyth Park in Bothell the trail becomes the Sammamish River Trail and continues for 10 miles to King County's Marymoor Park in Redmond" [emphasis added]. It's "duh" easy to subtract 10 : )
Topographically, Marymoor Park, Lake Sammamish is a logical mileage end, since recreational trekkers like to end at a lake, a high point, a beach.
The name of the trail was political, and independent of how it is popularly used.*

As an encyclopedia, one standard for the B-G would be the limits of the old Seattle, Lake Shore & Eastern Railroad railway, wherever that is per what reference. Seattle, Lake Shore and Eastern Railroad article says it was founded by Burke and Gilman "with the purpose of creating a rail connection to North Dakota", and constructed to "just east of North Bend", so the B-G trail would historically accurately be that.

The references provided have been quoted; they themselves should clarify what's what. I used mileages per the refs. An easy way to corroborate might be with actual paper maps. If no one has, I'll see what I can find.

The Seattle Parks Department considers the B-G to end in Kenmore (http://www.ci.seattle.wa.us/parks/BurkeGilman/bgtrail.htm). King County says it ends in Bothell (http://www.metrokc.gov/parks/trails/trails/burke.htm). Interesting... it would be nice if the trail were actually signed--then we could see where the B-G signs stopped and the Sammamish signs started. --Lukobe 18:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I basically provided some more accuracy and added references to existing text, per WP:MoS. Using MoS referencing does make the raw text hard to read and edit, but the form used is per my understanding of the MoS, subject to advisement.
See "Style" section in Talk:Seattle, Citing sources.

For alternative-transport fans, an important point is, "How far can you go before you have to use unseparated right of way?" So providing the total distance along any contiguous route would be particularly useful, such as a planned route along the MTS Greenway, someday--or as much as exists at the stated date of editing.

Similarly, that Marymoor Park is beside Lake Sammamish is far more readily recognizable to those who are not already familiar with Seattle suburbia. The lake is far prominent as well as of more general interest to those not of Redmond (or Bellevue) who are also interested in the B-G. The velodrome could well be a greater draw to B-G Trail article readers than Redmond. --GoDot 05:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

2. "[Y]et further down it notes the newest segment": "The main trail resumes" [emphasis added], "extensions of the trail", "and planning for connecting".
B-G has two ends in Seattle: provisional and future when completed. The mentioned "missing link" makes the trail incomplete, indefinitely. (The contiguous route east has similar discontinuity, but that's another story.)

3. My reading of the references was that they were inexact about where the trail ends or changes names in Kenmore-Bothell. My reading of Wikipedia style is that discrepancies among valid sources should be duly noted. 'Need isolate whatever definitive reference for asserting exactitude. Maybe Wikipedians who are avid B-G Trail travellers would know. Anyone?

____
[Asterisk] As much as Cowen-Ravenna parks are one with two names. BN held all the SLS&E assets when they were abandoned, so the Burke-Gillman standing is moot but remains the historical genesis.

--GoDot 07:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC) --GoDot 03:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Not sure where to add this but here is the information about the abandonment by Burlington Northern Santa Fe from 0.09 to 02.7 The start of the Sammamish River trail is well marked and the trails do overlap for a little bit. This is the point of the start of the Sammamish River trail and this is the end of the Burke-Gilman Trail (Natfoot footnat (talk) 03:10, 11 March 2021 (UTC))

References

More on accurate content, sufficiently significant content

Accuracy is a goal.
With one portion 17 and one 10, "[i]ts eastern half" is less accurate than the previous construction. If distances are any big deal, a table would be significantly more useful and allow more readable text.
"[T]he Sammamish River Trail, and parallels the Sammamish River" is redundant; this would be notable only if different.

"Judge Burke and Daniel Gilman's original Road east" refers to a particular, therefore it is a proper noun in this case, sufficient for the summary paragraph and elaborated in a later paragraph.
"Judge Burke and Daniel Gilman's original Road east ran past North Bend to a little above Snoqualmie Falls" is of signal significance to the article, since this is the genesis of the enterprise. It is summary paragraph content. Further, while sufficient for the topic paragraph, it also provides foreshadowing for subsequent elaboration. These are specific constructions for particular purposes.

That "11th Avenue NW at NW 45h Street" is downtown Ballard is more signficant--and interesting--than the numbered streets alone. Ballard was and developed as an independent city; its structure today clearly still retains that of a small town (until relatively very recently, the adjacent City of Frement had long remained spiritedly so). The last mills were removed from both towns only in recent decades with the off-shoring of those jobs.

--GoDot 05:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Summary: + txt, cl wrt cit, sp cit Speidel; see Talk:
Explication: Add text, cleanup so text accurately reflects sources, fix spelling in citation of Speidel.
Suggestion: Rename article to match sources: Burke-Gilman Sammamish Trail.

With regard to "from Seattle's Gas Works Park to Kenmore's Tracy Owen Station," Wikipedia recommends maintaining internal links, "Kenmore's Tracy Owen Station".
"connecting between the Ballard Locks and downtown Ballard" is a useful piece of information that should be retained. Without it, of the three segments remaining before the trail in the city is complete,[[2]] only two are described. The transition to the second half of the paragraph no longer exists. The missing link is no longer defined.

Sand Point neighborhood and Sand Point are discrete.

--GoDot 12:22, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Image(s)

Opening Day Excursion on the Seattle Lake Shore and Eastern Railroad, c. 1887

Would someone copy & crop the blank sides? (Might burn in or crop out a little of the washed-out from the bottom.) Then the image could float|right with the text : ) --GoDot 05:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I put it in a box and thumbnailed it, albeit a large thumbnail. I also eliminated the duplicate captions and fixed the upper portion of the reference anchor. Not optimal, but at least it doesn't look broken anymore. Solarbird 00:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Distances in km only?

Does anybody else find it tiresome to read thru the page and continually stumble over the miles (km) after every length? I suggest that somebody just make the page's distances read in km only; everybody who uses this trail is international-aware enough to know the km distances, and that would make it easier to read the page. Anybody agree or disagree? Raymondwinn (talk) 00:00, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Dubious

I cannot find any references to "Scampi" or "Trail Kitty" on the Burke. The infobox photograph was taken in 2007. At best, this seems like original research based on personal experience. At worst, it is vandalism. What do other editors think? Shall I remove? — hike395 (talk) 06:56, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree that it's likely personal experience but I immediately recognized this cat because he/she is a fixture known to Burke-Gilman trail commuters and recorded on Strava via photos by trail users. I didn't edit this page but I know 'trail cat' from regular rides. Unless it's raining, the cat is consistently by the trail in this location (north of Matthew's Beach Park, parallel to Lake Shore Blvd NE), even now--13 years later. He's aloof but enjoys attention. I cannot verify the cat's name, but he's a living local landmark of sorts, especially during summer months. My initial impression is that it isn't vandalism, but it is quirky, Seattle-like content that is inconsistent with Wikipedia's style. Because other Burke-Gilman trail users access this Wikipedia page I wouldn't remove it, but I certainly would understand if other editors felt that this caption encouraged similar content on this or other pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Odovacar (talk • contribs) 06:53, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I am the person who originally edited the page to reference Scampi (from my own personal experience with the cat), because me and my family were longtime "fans" of his, and we visited him for many years and I thought he deserved some additional memorialization on the official Burke-Gilman wiki entry. I say all this and interject myself here because I just stumbled across a separate website corroborating my information, http://randosaigai.com/july_14.html . This website and it's story are certainly as anecdotal and unverifiable as my own information, though nonetheless it adds additional context and nuance that I thought might interest someone. 6:45, 27 December 2020 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.34.203.180 (talk)

• I've taken out the name of the cat, since it seems like nobody can find an WP:RS for it. The cat is still mentioned in the caption. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 08:09, 8 February 2021 (UTC)