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Structure of the Article

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This article is horrible! I tried to start some improvements, based on the stucture of the articles on the Premier League and La Liga. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.79.197.128 (talk) 21:51, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The whole thing is a faboulouse piece of patchwork showing its evolutionary origins, but not really the evolutionary origin of the the Bundesliga.

Where to begin the repair? Scrap it and start anew. Third Reich and GDR stuff, etc., is not really at home here. Give it its own pads.

As this is the Wikipedia, I suppose I have to do it all myself.

Any opinions out there?

Oalexander-En 17:29, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. There is some decent content here and the thing is readable.
What I think it does need (and I've felt this way for a while) is to be turned into a page more generally about the history of German football (where the material about the Third Reich and GDR would be more at home) with a separate page more tightly focused on the Bundesliga itself. It's got to be readable and approachable for all users, not just for extreme Bundesliga fanatics.
As to your suggestions that the whole thing be scraped, that's a little over the top. And it's not particularly noble to "have to do it all yourself". Wikipedia is by its nature collaborative and it would be helpful to recognize that. Wiggy! 18:41, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The article still makes confused reading when it discusses German football championships and includes the East German ones (as people usually do in Germany but usually do not in English-speaking countries) without much explanation and continues with statistics of Bundesliga championships. The article is entitled Fußball-Bundesliga, and totals of German football championships which include the period of time before the Bundesliga need to be deleted from this article with a reference to the list of German football champions, which explains everything and lists all the champions. Coyets (talk) 15:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fußball-Bundesliga

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I do understand that it's desirable to not use the ß-character, but Fussball is simply wrong orthography. The title of the article should be Fußball-Bundesliga, and a redirect should be in place for those who use two s. Opinions, anyone? If you agree, feel free to move it back. Madcynic 19:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, it isn't "wrong orthography". Not in English. It is perfectly legitimate to use the English alphabet when writing in English, and furthermore, the ß is one almost never used in English writing. This is the English Wikipedia, not the Greman Wikipedia. Gene Nygaard (talk) 16:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, of course it's not wrong in English. But as this is a page on the German first flight association football league which happens to be called Fußball-Bundesliga, the ß is a necessary character. Besides, this is exactly how it is done with other articles having "undesirable" characters... --Madcynic (talk) 17:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But ß is not a character used in the English language and is not on most English language keyboard layouts. Per naming conventions, article titles should be in English. Beeblbrox (talk) 21:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Following that argument, the article should be named Football Federal League. Lars T. (talk) 23:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Football Federal League is ridiculous. Nobody would even know what is meant by that. In my opinion Fußball-Bundesliga + redirects is good. Actually the only other way, not totally confusing people, is probably to have the Fußball-Bundesliga at Bundesliga and give a link at the top of the article to a disambiguation page. The rationale behind that being that when anybody on this world is talking about the Bundesliga they are probably more than 90% of the time talking about the German Fußball-Bundesliga. Call me an arrogant German football fan, but that's the way it is I guess. OdinFK (talk) 07:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC
It should be Bundesliga (football). The football league is the only significant usage of the word Bundesliga in the English-speaking world, so that is the natural title, in line with the primary use of any other title. "(football)" is then simply for clarification, and that format is in line with conventions. The current version is in a foreign language, and a foreign alphabet. It treats the English language with disrespect, as do all other articles with titles incorporating non-English letters. I only wish that English-speakers were't warped by politically correct guilt, and had the gumption to stand up for their own language in its own wikipedia. Luwilt (talk) 16:37, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So ß ist not a character? What about ü, then? I´ve got both in my name. Anyone for showing some character? Right, try to pronounce it correctly. -- Best, SpVggLieth (talk) 21:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is a question of respecting the English language. We don't use Chinese titles for articles, and we shouldn't use German titles either. Luwilt (talk) 16:31, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But you call something "Kindergarden" without having the word "Kinder". So much to the respect of English language.--80.109.212.110 (talk) 14:11, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Luwilt, may I cite the naming conventions you are referring to? "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g., Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard and Göttingen, but Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence". Are 'ç' and 'ö' characters of the Roman alphabet as the English language uses it? As far as I know the answer is no. What is different about 'ß' then? If "Fußball-Bundesliga" is the name usually used in the English language then "Fußball-Bundesliga" is the correct article title. What is actually the most common usage in the English language I cannot tell, though. OdinFK (talk) 14:34, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Goal Difference

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what the article currently states may well have been correct when it was added, however it appears to have been changed :

and click on "competition" 62.176.111.68 (talk) 19:55, 17 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

English names for German football teams

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More of a query than a suggestion, but just wondering if anyone can shed light on why teams aren't always listed by their German names whilst others clearly are when there might be a viable alternative, for example FC Bayern Munich or 1. FC Nuremberg, whilst 1. FC Köln is not 1. FC Cologne. -- Fips (talk) 14:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It has been an on going debate for some time, but generally not a real intense one. Some folks prefer to see the native name used and others insist (in accordance with Wikipedia's manual of style if I recall) that the most common or familiar English version of a team's name be used. There have been innumerable debates on it before and is not just limited to German football teams, but includes the teams of other nations, players names, etc., etc. It also generally only afflicts the larger/better known clubs/players and that accounts for some of the inconsistency. That and we haven't had a zealot from one camp or the other making his way around to "fix" things. My preference would be to use the teams real name (you know, call it what it is) with whatever English language redirects you need - but then that's just me. Wiggy! (talk) 20:07, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, thanks for the feedback. It's only natural that the more common teams have adopted Anglophone names, but interesting that there isn't really any consensus on Wikipedia. And also great to know that there are jobs available for the overzealous! ;-) -- Fips (talk) 19:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Naming / Bundesliga

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I propose, per WP:EN, that the bundesliga be renamed to just Bundesliga - nobody uses the convention Fussball-Bundesliga. Sandman888 (talk) 20:15, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely. This article is currently titled not just in a foreign language, but in a foreign alphabet. You couldn't get a much clearer breach of policy. Luwilt (talk) 16:29, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Foreign players

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Let's create a list of foreign players in the Bundesliga? so that many people can contribute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.24.194.133 (talk) 20:50, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, go ahead. It's a lot of tedious work, but that never stopped any serious Wikipedian. If you want to create an article you have to become a member of the project aka register, though. OdinFK (talk) 06:17, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

League coefficient

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Little Change made.German Bundeliga is in the UEFA Ranking now 2nd not 3rd anymore.Follow the Wiki Link in the Article to the List. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.246.11.116 (talk) 16:26, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You confused the national team coefficient (where Germany is ranked second) with the association coefficient ("league coefficient") (where Germany is ranked third). --Jaellee (talk) 16:47, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

POV tag

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I have added a POV tag because this article has been named in a foreign language, and a foreign alphabet, breaching the English language policy. This suggests an attempt to impose a German-centric viewpoint on the English language Wikipedia. Luwilt (talk) 16:34, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "foreign" alphabet used is the Latin alphabet. The term Bundesliga is the most commonly used in English, though this typically only referring to football. "Fußball-Bundesliga" is a much more satisfying title than "Bundesliga (football)" or the never-seen "Football Bundesliga". I will remove the POV tag, because I think that it's a misguided usage. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 18:00, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Records

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The number of titles is not correct, as you know, Bayern only won 22 Bundesliga titles. Already changed it, but it was rechanged. It completly makes no sense to write in the edit section: Only 22 titles in Bundesliga. It has to be on the page. Could be something like i.g. 22 titles (23 in total). All other records are directly linked to the Bundesliga era, so the titles have to be also, otherwise the logic is broken. It is time also, to specify the other club records (season), but I will do that in the near future, because most of the records will be or are already broken by the current Bayern side. I might add some as well. They could of course, be discussed afterwards. 

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.63.44.247 (talk) 20:00, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edit: The records section schould be Bayern independent (more like the records are treated on the page for spanish records etc.). Due to issues of respect to the Bundesliga and also due to the other clubs, there should be a better afford for a proper records section. But I will take care of that as well. Maybe the page "Football records in Germany" should be increased to get the same quality of the spanish one.

Requested move

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Lengthy discussion
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved per WP:UE and WP:COMMONNAME. Miniapolis 13:58, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Fußball-Bundesliga → Bundesliga (men) – per WP:UE. The German game is universally referred to simply as the 'Bundesliga'. The word 'fußball' isn't English and in any event is redundant  Ohconfucius ping / poke 09:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

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Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
  • Comment Why not just "Bundesliga" rather than "Bundesliga (men)". I think if disambiguation is required, it's better to use the formal (current) name, rather than adding something at the end which isn't part of the name. The (men) part isn't needed to disambiguate it from the women's league, as the official name of that includes "Frauen" (the men's league does not include the word "Männer"). Number 57 16:29, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Oppose Bundesliga is far to ambigious a title given the number of Bundesligas in Germany and Austria, of which the football one wasn't even the first one. Calistemon (talk) 21:55, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There are active requests on both of those. Check WP:RM. --BDD (talk) 16:27, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - from a football POV, this is an obvious support, because the German men's league is the most significant of the football-leagues known as Bundesliga. Though I'm a little concerned whether this subject is actually the primary topic of Bundesliga, given the large number of sports-leagues in Austria and Germany that is named Bundesliga. And yes, according to WP:UE, the name should be "Bundesliga, just like any other league on this list. Mentoz86 (talk) 21:42, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – The argument that "Fußball" is not an English word and should therefore be removed doesn't hold for me because Bundesliga is not an English word either. There are lots of Bundesligen and I would prefer to get a disambiguation page when looking for "Bundesliga". --Jaellee (talk) 22:54, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yeah, but per all the sources I've provided below (and I can provide more, in a flash), Bundesliga is expected to refer to the football league in the English language. This is English language Wikipedia, after all. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:32, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Certain words do migrate into the English language. Bundesliga seems to be one of them, as this ngram shows, its use accelerates from about 1990, and I believe it is a word that in English, is used much more strictly than the corresponding term in German to refer the German federal football league. In other words, in its move from the German language, it has lost its generic nature and become a proper noun. Sushi wasn't an English word until about 1978. Then we have the word 'debutante' – French word meaning simply "beginner (feminine)"; it's meaning in English is much more specific. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 23:25, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - nomination is flawed and nominator seems to lack a basic understanding of German football in English. There are far too many leagues called 'Bundesliga', no evidence this is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. GiantSnowman 12:29, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, it's not gospel, but a search on just "Bundesliga" in Google gave nothing but football for as long as I could be bothered to page across, including sources like www.bundesliga.com (the official website), Fox Sports, BBC News, Sky Sports, The Guardian, FIFA, Eurosport, ESPN, UEFA.... The Rambling Man (talk) 12:49, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I cannot understand why GS would want to frame this as an "ignoramus vs expert" (my words) discusison, for WP:COMMONNAME is exactly about what the layman would identify the topic as. Even those who habitually edit the article seem to agree that the name 'Bundesliga' is the most commonly used. Now with the help of n-gram, it can be established that 'Bundesliga' is streets ahead of any other term; 'Fußball-Bundesliga' is simply flatlining, losing out even to 'German Bundesliga. I'd like to see some evidence from GS (or anyone other opposer, for that matter) as to why 'Fußball-Bundesliga' is the common name or primary topic in English.

      As to the assertion that there are other 'Bundesligas', it is highly contestable that these are talked about at all as 'Bundesligas' without qualifiers in the Anglophone world – that is, if they are talked about at all ;-). The Austrian counterpart is named, surprise surprise, 'Austrian Football Bundesliga', and not 'Österreichische Fußball-Bundesliga'. -- Ohconfucius ping / poke 22:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose - There are too many sports that use the name "Bundesliga" for their primary leagues in Germany. Plus, there is also an Austrian Bundesliga for a number of sports too. Although the German men's football league may appear to be the top use of the term "Bundesliga", it is too generic a term to be specifically ascribed to any one subject. – PeeJay 13:20, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per GiantSnowman. – Michael (talk) 18:29, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support without the qualifier. Bundesliga is the most common name in English and we don't need the men qualifier as the German men's football league is the most popular Bundesliga. Eldumpo (talk) 20:33, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Bundesliga is a generic term used for many leagues in German-speaking countries including, but not limited to football. This is evidenced by the existing Bundesliga page. It's not like the term Premier League or La Liga, which is only ever used in relation to the top flight of the sport in those two nations. There is no evidence that this is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The only thing that might make it even remotely close to that is the popularity of the sport itself and may be one of the only German nouns known to many English-speaking readers.
Also, I'm very concerned that there is no move discussion template on the article itself. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:35, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You've also forgotten these Premier Leagues.... But still written in English. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:49, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The difference here is that the Premier League is the only one that calls itself just "Premier League"; all the others have some sort of disambiguator built into their official names, which solves the problem for us. In the case of the Bundesliga, however, all of them disambiguate one way or another, so we may as well use the official names. – PeeJay 14:02, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The better question, though, is what the league is called in English. And the league's own English website uses "Bundesliga" alone, with not a Fußball in sight except for the copyright statement. --BDD (talk) 15:10, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly, this is English Wikipedia, and we use common names (in English) here. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:06, 9 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - other Bundasligas exist, but apparently the German top football division is far and away the most searched-for, qualifying as a primary topic, much like Premier League. As there, a hatnote with link to dab page would suffice. C679 07:27, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

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Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. --BDD (talk) 16:06, 30 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Incorrect move

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The consensus was to move this to "Bundesliga", not "Bundesliga (men)". Discuss. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:08, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good Article

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I think this qualifies as a good article. How about nominating it? Or do you see thing that have to be improved first? Cheers, Horst-schlaemma (talk) 13:38, 12 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article will not qualify as a good article while it has the massive unsourced trivia statistics lists at the end. Indeed it has a number of sections that have no cites at all. All these will need improved and sourced. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 21:06, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Records section

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The record section has grown out of hand and lacks almost completely in references. Personally I think it should either be deleted or better, if references are added by the IP who recently compiled it, be moved to its own article, along the lines of Premier League records and statistics. Calistemon (talk) 17:06, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, such an article already exists under the title of Bundesliga records. I have move most of the section there where it is more relevant.Calistemon (talk) 17:37, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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Formatting champions list and honours list

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This is how the list of Bundesliga champions is currently formatted:
Season Champion[1]
1963–64 1. FC Köln
1964–65 Werder Bremen
1965–66 1860 Munich
1966–67 Eintracht Braunschweig
1967–68 1. FC Nürnberg
1968–69 Bayern Munich
1969–70 Borussia Mönchengladbach
1970–71 Borussia Mönchengladbach
1971–72 Bayern Munich
1972–73 Bayern Munich
1973–74 Bayern Munich
1974–75 Borussia Mönchengladbach
1975–76 Borussia Mönchengladbach
1976–77 Borussia Mönchengladbach
Season Champion
1977–78 1. FC Köln
1978–79 Hamburger SV
1979–80 Bayern Munich
1980–81 Bayern Munich
1981–82 Hamburger SV
1982–83 Hamburger SV
1983–84 VfB Stuttgart
1984–85 Bayern Munich
1985–86 Bayern Munich
1986–87 Bayern Munich
1987–88 Werder Bremen
1988–89 Bayern Munich
1989–90 Bayern Munich
1990–91 1. FC Kaiserslautern
Season Champion
1991–92 VfB Stuttgart
1992–93 Werder Bremen
1993–94 Bayern Munich
1994–95 Borussia Dortmund
1995–96 Borussia Dortmund
1996–97 Bayern Munich
1997–98 1. FC Kaiserslautern
1998–99 Bayern Munich
1999–2000 Bayern Munich
2000–01 Bayern Munich
2001–02 Borussia Dortmund
2002–03 Bayern Munich
2003–04 Werder Bremen
2004–05 Bayern Munich
Season Champion
2005–06 Bayern Munich
2006–07 VfB Stuttgart
2007–08 Bayern Munich
2008–09 VfL Wolfsburg
2009–10 Bayern Munich
2010–11 Borussia Dortmund
2011–12 Borussia Dortmund
2012–13 Bayern Munich
2013–14 Bayern Munich
2014–15 Bayern Munich
2015–16 Bayern Munich
2016–17 Bayern Munich
2017–18 Bayern Munich
And this is how the list of clubs with honours is currently formatted:

The problem with the current arrangement is that the lists will look squeezed on small screens (including smartphones). Plus, someone will have to rearrange tables and/or column division every time a club wins championship or joins the honour club.

That problem can be solved with {{Div col}}, and below is how the current lists can be formatted with that template.

This is how I'd change the list of Bundesliga champions:
And this is how I'd change the list of clubs with honours:

In fact, I have applied the template to the lists in this article, but somebody reverted the change, saying the previous format was better.

Come on. It's the age of responsive web design. The new arrangement makes much more sense than current one, and it will benefit those reading on smaller screens. JSH-alive/talk/cont/mail 11:34, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have no expertise regarding best practice here, but personally I like the new formatting you made. Even on a decently-sized screen the new format looks nicer, especially for the list of BL-champions. OdinFK (talk) 16:04, 1 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Deutsche Meister der Männer" (in German). dfb.de. Archived from the original on 29 March 2014. Retrieved 4 January 2012. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
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