Talk:Bubba Copeland

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This page was proposed for deletion by Derpytoucan (talk · contribs) on 4 November 2023 with the comment:
Fails WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NPOLITICIAN
It was seconded by P37307 (talk · contribs) on 2023-11-04 with the comment:
Notability is mostly inherited from the events related to his outing as transgender and death and not as a mayor or his short time in the national news regarding the tornado.
It was contested by Johndavies837 (talk · contribs) on 2023-11-05 with the comment:
He was a local but long-time public official, led the town and met with Trump after the tornado killed dozens, and his death (and the circumstances) have been covered nationally.

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Proposed deletion

I objected to the proposed deletion. He was a local but long-time public official, led the town and met with Trump after the 2019 tornado killed dozens, and his death (and the circumstances) have been covered nationally. It's also possible there will be more fallout/discussion relating to the website's decision to publish the story. Johndavies837 (talk) 00:24, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I expanded the article. Johndavies837 (talk) 01:59, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The incidents you mention alone were enough to make me think it's worth keeping the article, and who knows, there could be more if someone takes the time to dig. VintageVernacular (talk) 04:55, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I also object the prod. He did have the notability that usually comes with being a twice-elected mayor before this incident. SparklyNights 01:46, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The meeting with Trump seems to have conferred a little more notability than that. I've added a few sources since this section was opened. One of the stronger ones is the New Yorker article, it's from 2019, mentions him in the title, gives some bio on him, and is not a local news source. I think that's pretty hefty, but it is just one source. VintageVernacular (talk) 20:45, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep Interest in this page and the subject's notability will fade, but the combination of the subject's political career and death should be enough to maintain baseline notability. ❤History Theorist❤ 04:52, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

pronoun usage

is it not disrespectful to the dead to use masculine pronouns on a transgender woman who died? 120.18.88.93 (talk) 05:00, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See my additions. He denied it was anything more than a private hobby, an alter ego. If we take him at his word, he was basically more of a drag queen. I have to say it's a very unique situation though. VintageVernacular (talk) 05:01, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"

Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with the name and gendered words (e.g. pronouns, man/woman/person, waiter/waitress/server) that reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. This holds for any phase of the person's life, unless they have indicated a preference otherwise."

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Gender_identity

Copeland most recently identified themselves as a "transgender curvy girl",

"Copeland referred to himself as a “thick transgender woman” and encouraged other trans women to go on hormone replacement therapy."

https://nypost.com/2023/11/04/news/alabama-preacher-kills-himself-after-being-outed-as-transgender-curvy-girl/

"The report shared screenshots from Copeland’s now-deleted Instagram and Reddit accounts, where the openly explored their transgender identity."

https://www.advocate.com/news/alabama-mayor-outed-transgender-dead

Recent news coverage of Copelands death propose that they were a transgender woman, and i think that given their self identificatiion (even if it wasn't public) there should be a discussion as to using different pronouns for this person, simply referring to them only by name or whatever the wikipedia protocol is for this type of thing, (im new here.)

The way that this information has come out about Copeland is disgusting, but i think if they were indeed a transgender woman they deserved to be honoured in death by having consideration for their identity on their wiki page. CasisCute (talk) 14:21, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is *not* his most recent self-identification. His most recent is most likely his speech at the church, where he said the article isn't "who or what he is." And that it was just a "hobby". I mean honestly I agree with you personally, I think he was just repressing it, but that was his right and clearly this was something he wanted to keep to an alter ego. MOS:GENDERID would seem to lean against describing as a woman. I could maybe see a case for using gender neutral pronouns. VintageVernacular (talk) 17:03, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Clarifying: the "hobby" comment was earlier, and is I think made more dubious, since the source is originally 1819 News. His other comments in public make overall me think the same, still though. VintageVernacular (talk) 17:41, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be inappropriate to use female pronouns in this case. Copeland described his online activity as a hobby to relieve stress, "a bit of character I'm playing" and he said he doesn't feel like a woman. He repeated this when he spoke at the church. Therefore, he never publicly identified as a woman and we know he objected to the initial story being released. Unfortunately we'll never know more because he's dead now but I think it would be disrespectful to go against what he stated publicly. Johndavies837 (talk) 18:42, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since, in my experience, using gender-assigned-at-birth pronouns on the article of a gender-nonconforming person tends to attract a lot of misguided "fixes" over time, and since it may be confusing to readers who expect she/her, I've added a footnote explaining why he/him is used here. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (they|xe|she) 20:49, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In honor of a likely transgender person, using appropriate pronouns of that transgender identity seems like the correct choice to me; in this case where there is still an argument to be made for different than she/her pronouns (publicly denying their identity they'd tried to keep behind closed doors and to which the public reaction caused them to kill themselves does not hold up as a case for using their 'official' pronouns ~in my eyes~), we should at least use they/them as a gender-neutral way of addressing them instead of directly assuming that publicly used=preferred. 2003:DA:2F08:3389:AC5F:3BEB:A1C8:1CDE (talk) 21:48, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

obituary (update information)

I am not sure exactly how Wikipedia works and do not want to improperly add, change, etc information. However, his obituary has been published and shows that his date and place of birth are inaccurate.

I was hoping someone more qualified would make this change.

It can be found here:

https://vancebrooksfuneralhome.net/obituary/mr-f-l-bubba-copeland-jr/

Thanks Thispositivelife (talk) 20:49, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good find. Today's article from AL.com also says he was 49. Johndavies837 (talk) 21:16, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've corrected the date of birth. Not sure what to do about the birth location given that other RS has reported that he was born in Smiths Station (and he considers it his hometown). I assume what happened is that he was born at a hospital in Columbus, but that his family lived in Smiths Station... but we can't say that without more conclusive sourcing (which I doubt exists). Elli (talk | contribs) 21:21, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to see if I can't find a record of birth in a local paper from his year of birth. VintageVernacular (talk) 21:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I was using the access through the Wikipedia Library. From a search on Newspaper.com's archives, I didn't immediately turn up anything. And I didn't find it in either the May 27 or May 28 issues of the Columbus Ledger-Enquirer (he was born in Columbus, GA according to the obit, so). A birth record could still be in a local paper's pages from around that time, it's always a bit of trouble finding stuff in old newspapers. I can at least say that I haven't found it.

But hold on. The New Yorker source contradicts that obit. It says Copeland was born in eastern Alabama; they interviewed him directly, and I assume he probably told them that. VintageVernacular (talk) 22:22, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Bubba's trolls?

Did Bubba ever have any trolls? Was there sagas in his life? His exposure of his secret life would be his titular "calling out" saga.

Who was the biggest troll of Bubba? Was it 1819 news? 104.36.84.103 (talk) 00:16, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested renaming

I would strongly recommend renaming this (and adjusting the content appropriately) to "Death of Bubba Copeland". Ignoring anything around the circumstances of his death, he would fail WP's notability guidelines, and being in the news due to his death fails WP:BLP1E. But the event around his death currently does appear to meet NEVENT (since its the aftermath that is drawing interest), and as such, "Death of Bubba Copeland" would avoid any notability questions at this time. Masem (t) 02:09, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not opposed to renaming, but some sources do appear to point to notability beyond his death (e.g., the New Yorker article). Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 20:57, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose While an article might have been more questionable before his death, the totality of his profile should be more than enough for an article about him, not just his death. Johndavies837 (talk) 18:23, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]