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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4Archive 5

What is appropriate / encyclopedic for the lede image in the Brassiere article

This was a malformed RFC, because the question was about whether one could hypothetically replace the lede image with one involving a woman, but the image provided was only intended as an example. I don't think we should keep an RfC open on a hypothetical matter;instead we should reach rough consensus on an alternative image and if the editors here cannot agree consider a wider RfC. Closing per IAR feel free to revert for the same reason.Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:09, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There is a debate on whether the lede image for the brassiere article should include a woman. Some editors prefer and insist upon an image without a woman. Part of their concern is that available images with models tend to to be "sexualized", and have proposed the first image. Other editors feel that the photo is poor quality, but also argue that there is nothing wrong or un-encyclopedic with showing a bra on a woman. The second photograph from the commons has been proposed as a sample alternative to a bra on a manikin which is well lit and composed, showing a 2/3rd view including more of the garment structure.

Current lede image of bra on a manikin.
Sample image of bra on a woman from the commons

Should the article only show a bra on a manikin in the lede, or is it acceptable to have a photo with a woman that some people might find attractive in subject and composition.Mattnad (talk) 14:44, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Um, I just want to start off by saying that that second image is neither well lit nor well composed. The woman is very awkwardly staring down at her chest, there's bad shadows around the neck area, and the bra itself is very "distant" (small, hard to see), especially at the top where the lighting makes it blend right into her skin. Please also note that some of us took a position not covered in what you said above: I specifically said that a photo of a woman wearing a bra could possibly be correct, but certainly not that one (or the one that used to be in the article), as it doesn't do a good job of showing, you know, a "bra". Qwyrxian (talk) 14:52, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Everyone is entitle to his/her opinion. I for one like that image. But my takeaway is that you have no objection to having a lede image with a woman.Mattnad (talk) 14:54, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Nothing wrong with showing a woman and bra - it's the best way to show a bra in context. I will add that bras have both function and fashion aspects, so we should aspire to provide an image that illustrates both. Mattnad (talk) 14:57, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
  • oppose any change in lede image from the current excellent one (Mattnad wants the sexualized imaged he uploaded in the lede).Dan Murphy (talk) 15:36, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose changing it, for a number of reasons. Firstly, the pic we have now is perfectly adequate. It shows the garment of clothing in a non-sexualized way - rare these days. Furthermore, it's the 'full cup' style, it is almost perfectly fitting, with a well placed band underneath the breasts. It's at eye-level and front-on, and is clear and neutrally-lit. It's also, apparently, perfectly acceptable in the lede of a whole range of articles on other wikis. Go figure. It also has no issues around personality rights or model release. Conversely, the image that Mattnad desires is not front-on, is somewhat sexualized, shows a very ill-fitting bra (check out the band placement slightly above the line of her breasts), and is poorly lit and not forward facing in line with the observer. Furthermore, the emphasis is upon the model and not the garment and her posture is distracting from the subject material - Alison ❤ 18:52, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
    • Also, I'd no idea the image that Mattnad is proposing is actually his own "This is part of a private collection. I am the copyright holder". Thanks for pointing that out, Dan - Alison ❤ 18:56, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Which I have granted rights to Wikipedia under the creative commons. But this image is for illustration of a picture with a woman and bra. Not the recommendation. Mattnad (talk) 19:06, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes indeed, very good. To the letter of the law, an' all that (model rights aside). However, you're peddling your own pic here using an RfC and never declared that COI. Naughty naughty! - Alison ❤ 19:09, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Please avoid personal attacks and allegations. This is not peddling anything nor a COI. Wikipedia encourages people to supply photographs and this one is used on several pages, including internationally. I've proposed it as an example, not the recommendation.Mattnad (talk) 19:16, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
It's not a 'personal attack' and you didn't disclose. QED. Let others decide accordingly. If you wish to avoid accusations of COI, remove it from this page now and choose a similar one from someone else - Alison ❤ 19:23, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
How about you tone down your comments? Just sayin' Mattnad (talk) 19:26, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm being perfectly civil here. So, is that a 'no', then? - Alison ❤ 19:27, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
OK then, please point to which part of WP:COI you are accusing me of violating... Otherwise, please apologize.Mattnad (talk) 19:42, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Stop accusing people of attacking you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.128.192 (talk • contribs)
Sure. WP:SELFPROMOTE covers it, as well as parts of the WP:COI policy, see "Apparent, potential and actual conflict of interest", the comments re. 'disclosure' (which you didn't) and 'Self-promotion', specifically semi-personal photos, as well as the commentary re. 'Photographs and media files'. See also the general article conflict of interests - Alison ❤ 20:18, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Quoting the Self Promote guideline in full, "Conflict of interest often presents itself in the form of self-promotion, including advertising links, personal website links, personal or semi-personal photos. Examples include links that point to commercial sites and to personal websites, and biographical material that does not significantly add to the clarity or quality of the article." The photograph is neither personal nor semipersonal, and it topical. Apology accepted ;)Mattnad (talk) 20:22, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
And the rest, Mr. Underwear-of-smartitude? - Alison ❤ 20:39, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
And while we're now off on a tangent, discussing COI and what it means, I note you still refuse to remove the photo you uploaded, from this RfC. "Oh, it's just an example" - no it's not! - Alison ❤ 20:46, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Comment: "this one is used on several pages". This comment should be taken in the context of examples such as this where Mattnad adds this image themselves: [1]. I agree this RfC has a subtext since it is Mattnad's own image, and it is slightly misleading to suggest that this image has been used on other pages when s/he added it themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.128.192 (talk) 20:51, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
I assure you, it's not my personal image. I'm not nearly as pretty as the woman. But that it's not my image (or part of any commercial interest or website aside from wikipedia) which is at the heart of the COI accusation. Also, if you were to sample the articles in which that image appears, the vast majority were added by other editors. 'nuff said.Mattnad (talk) 23:10, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose: the suggested replacement image (Mattnad's uploaded photograph of a blonde in a Wonderbra) is not encyclopedic. "The emphasis is on the women and not the garment"- yes I agree 100%. I do not strictly oppose use of human model, but so far anyone has yet to offer a suitable image with a human model. Finding a human model brings many problems: I think such an image should be cropped to the area of interest (i.e. no need to include face and lower body), and should be of an normal looking woman (i.e. not some malnourished underwear model) in a neutral pose (i.e. not pushing her arms together like the original) and facing the image. I disagree with the statement "bras have both function and fashion aspects, so we should aspire to provide an image that illustrates both". We have images for the fashion aspect in the rest of the article. To include 2 images of the same brand would not be appropriate. The lead image should be neutral and encyclopedic, and not pander to how a minority of Wikipedia editors think women should be depicted by default. The current image is better than any others that have been offered, and the reasons cited above for not using it are nonsensical. It shows what the article is about better than any of the other images. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.128.192 (talk) 20:11, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose any change. The current pic is fine and is consistent with Undergarment, Stocking, Shoes, etc. in having no model. --NeilN talk to me 20:14, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Allison and Dan. Huldra (talk) 21:29, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Mattand, could you please clarify the question being asked here? I assumed you were asking if it's better to swap the mannequin picture for the blond picture shown above. In that case, I absolutely oppose, for the reasons I've outlined above. If, instead, you're abstractly asking whether or not it might be a good idea to switch the current picture for some picture of some woman wearing some bra, I'm afraid you haven't filed a proper RfC. We don't deal in abstracts; there's no way to make a decision about whether or not some unnamed, undescribed picture is better. As I said in the prior section, I can imagine a picture of a bra being worn that would be acceptable as a lead image, but it would have to fall under very strict requirements, and until/unless we know of such a CC-BY-SA picture, it's just a waste of time to debate it. We don't do the "Okay, so let's agree in principle that this might be possible" step. Qwyrxian (talk) 21:46, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

The proposal is to permit a picture of a woman wearing a bra. The photograph showing a woman was for illustration, not a recommendation. I think the frenzy and personal attacks have clouded that.Mattnad (talk) 23:03, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
In that case, the RfC is essentially invalid. We don't run RfC's that ask hypothetical questions about possible article changes based on non-existent data/images/etc. No one can reasonably answer that question. Please note, also that what you just said is not what most people are answering--they're stating a preference for the current image over the blond one you provided. I recommend that you withdraw this RfC and come back with a specific suggestion for a change to the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:46, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Why don't we see how it plays out. We have 30 days, and perhaps once the usual crowd have had their say, other editors may very well have a more flexible views on how to represent an article on bras.Mattnad (talk) 00:01, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm not seeing any "frenzy and personal attacks" here, and I resent that implication. What I am seeing here is an editor now pushing their own image, for reasons unknown, through an RfC process. They initially didn't divulge they were the uploader, and subsequently refused to remove it from the discussion here ("it's just an example"), instead focusing on personalizing the issue. Furthermore, they've been going round pushing this image onto pages of other wikis, then getting argumentative and defensive when called on it. Not okay - Alison ❤ 00:04, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Health information: serious problems

This article has a serious problem in its reporting of biomedical information in a way which is seriously out-of-alignment with WP:MEDRS giving a skewed, and likely non-neutral and bogus impression of some the health impacts of bra wearing. I have tagged the article accordingly and will make some attempt to clean up. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI

 Done ... which I have now done. There was a strange focus on pain supporting by a large number of completely inappropriate publications and sites. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 13:06, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Wow, you just eviscerated a substantial portion of the article without any discussion or participation by other editors. Having never edited this article, with no background in it, you summarily removed 21% of the content. In your edit summary supporting removing some content, you refer to "content obsessing about pain". I believe one of the findings is that a lot of women do experience pain from wearing a bra. While you note that some of the content fails WP:MEDRS, some of the info you removed contained references to journals, which you noted as "unreliably-sourced". There isn't a lot of research on this topic, so requiring all sources to be less than 5 years old is inappropriate for this article.
Your behavior is inconsiderate of the considerable effort others including myself have put into creating an article that passed muster as a Good Article. You do understand that WP is having a hard time attracting individuals willing to spend time creating content, right? You can refer to WP guidelines -- and they are guidelines, not RULES -- if you want. But when you fail to include others in such a substantive edit, your WikiDragon behavior alienates and discourages others from making ongoing contributions. Over the next few days I am going to revert some of your edits. If you don't agree, please follow up with a discussion here so that others can contribute. — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 19:00, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
In my view, this article was an embarrassment to Wikipedia (as has been noted outside Wikipedia, FWIW). Any editor wishing to reinstate content against the grain of WP guidelines will need, of course, to make a convincing argument for why there is an exceptional case. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 19:18, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
I was not aware of the scathing criticism of the article. The critic suggests this article should include references to articles about how happy women are wearing their bras. Give me a break. They don't like the images? Finding appropriate images is difficult. Maybe the critic would like to model? In any case, it is a reasonable courtesy to discuss proposed massive edits beforehand. — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 19:39, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
I am irritated because Wikipediocracy has removed that article on their website! I wasn't the author, but I wrote a lengthy comment. However, it did motivate me to spend hours researching and cleaning up the WP Brassiere measurement article. I was pleased that there were no problems of any sort. Yay! btphelps, I believe that Alison and Alexbrn are correct here. It is degrading and illogical, the implication that 80 to 85% of all women are such idiots that they can't figure out how to buy underwear that fits correctly! That's what this article currently states, repeatedly, that 80 to 85% of women, globally, are in pain and distress because they can't get decently fitting undergarments. Also, it states that manufacturers refuse to produce decent measurement-standardized brassieres for what would seem to be an enormously underserved and lucrative market i.e. nearly half of the global population! In response to your direct comment (which did make me laugh :o) I am female and would be happy "to model" if Wikimedia Foundation wishes to send a photographer to my home to photograph me in situ. Next, you've got a problem with one of the new bra photos, the young lady wearing the black-and-gold leopard skin print bra. It fits poorly. Seriously, look at the back view. Only one of the three hook-and-eye closures is fastened, and the entire thing appears to be too small for her as it is barely remaining in place. Note the gap and twisted fabric. The front view is fine though. Maybe you would consider removing the rear view image? I have no complaints about the image, as it is a photograph of a wholesome young woman who is not emaciated.--FeralOink (talk) 19:54, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Fear not User:FeralOink the article was merely updated which appears to have changed the date in the URL.Dan Murphy (talk) 20:11, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
My particular concern is that the article is not bloated with poorly sourced (and so likely bogus) health information. The true "courtesy" would be not to insert that in the first place. Anyway, this being the Talk page, is any alteration to the text being proposed? Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 19:45, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
How about pics of a non white woman as well... this page ignores most of the world's women. Shame on you all. So sensitive to showing normal women, unless they are any race but white.198.23.5.11 (talk) 18:51, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I absolutely concur that this article was an 'embarrassment to Wikipedia' and is highly skewed with an anti-bra POV. Why, I don't know. Just checking that one Greenbaum reference shows that the sample used suffers from confirmation bias as the 103 women chosen for the study were *all* referred for reduction mammoplasty. Just for starters. And now Btphelps is reverting to have that re-inserted? I disagree in the strongest terms - Alison ❤ 19:54, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Completely agree with Alison and Alexbrn. Needs to be rewritten (or merged) and the boob pics reduced. How many pictures of white women in bras is needed to make the point? Seems like a Victoria's Secret advert that's been plastered with bra pics. Soranoch (talk) 20:24, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
@ btphelps "I believe one of the findings is that a lot of women do experience pain from wearing a bra." No, there was no such credible finding. Breast weight is the principal factor in pain, not the bra. Some women find a bra restrictive, but there is no study here to support any of that. Bielle (talk) 20:38, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
^ this - Alison ❤ 20:40, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
I agree that these edits were long overdue and I applaud the boldness of the cleanup. Thanks Alexbrn.Mattnad (talk) 23:03, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

Whilst WP:MEDRS is a guideline and not a rule as suggested above, we should not be making health claims based on poor sources, especially ones that relate to supposed positive and negative health effects of wearing such common garments. I still think the image in the lead is unnecessarily sexualized as the individual seems to me to be pushing breasts together to give a greater cleavage effect. Would be just as suitable to have a picture of a bra on a shop mannequin? Lesion (talk) 23:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the clean up of the article and the removal of the dubious and poorly or erroneously-cited material. Cla68 (talk) 22:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
More agreement here; the removed material was of very poor quality. Alexbrn has done a good job with these changes. — Scott • talk 14:33, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Implicit racism

This article shows only images of white women, either drawn or live. All of the editors who are so concerned about images... but don't care that the article is completely devoid of any women of color. Nice job. 198.23.5.11 (talk) 18:54, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Maybe the editors who have developed this article have concentrated on finding appropriate images of bras to illustrate the points in each section rather than counting characteristics (ethnicity/age etc) of people wearing them. IMO, the former is more important. If you feel strongly about it then find/create some better images. DexDor (talk) 22:07, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Nice excuse. Maybe Hollywood makes movies with few black people in lead roles because they concentrated on finding appropriate actors for the role instead of focusing on ethnicity/age etc. Maybe there are few black people leading big companies because the companies focus on talent rather than counting characteristics (ethnicity/age etc.) - as you put it. You should read up on Color Blindness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.23.5.11 (talk) 22:26, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
IP, you are completely correct that it would be better to find a variety of body types, skin colors, etc., to illustrate the subjects (or, alternatively, switch to less "embodied" pictures and more pictures of unworn brassieres). Do you have any suggestions for images we can use from Wikimedia Commons? Qwyrxian (talk) 22:53, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
Given the current climate around this article relating to photographs, that might be difficult. As for "less embodied", that probably won't solve for the lack of diversity on this page in the selected imagery.Mattnad (talk) 00:38, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

The reason why there are fewer black actors in Hollywood than white actors is very simple. It's called demographics. There are much fewer black people who live in the United States than white people. Yet black people are actually overrepresented in Hollywood due to political correctness. The reason why there are only white women in this article is probably related to demographics as well. Most people who edit Wikipedia are from North America and Europe (white countries). If there were people from other continents on Wikipedia instead, then there would be "people of color" pictures instead of white women. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dudeman505 (talk • contribs) 01:21, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Not quite on topic, but I notice the female figure farthest right in this 1707 picture by a Dutch artist appears to be wearing a garment very like a brassiere. She's clearly African, but the early date seems so anomalous. Can any fashion historian explain? RLamb (talk) 19:04, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
That looks more like a Bandeau, and it probably has a specific name. Technically, a bra is a Foundation garment and is worn under clothing, although sometime women wear them uncovered.Mattnad (talk) 19:25, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Mattnad, I understand the difference now. And do you think it's likely to be a garment from her own culture, or something she's adopted since living in a Dutch colony? I was thinking perhaps she'd cut down a European bodice of some sort - the shoulder straps give it a non-African look somehow. (To me. To someone ignorant of traditional African dress.)RLamb (talk) 08:03, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 27 April 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved as requested Mike Cline (talk) 17:09, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


Brassiere → Bra – Far more commonly referred to as a bra. See sports bra, training bra and nursing bra as other evidence. Unreal7 (talk) 18:28, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Weak oppose I believe this is a matter of formal vs informal language, like "film" vs "movie". I'd change my mind if there are other examples of informal terms used as article titles. Peter Isotalo 18:42, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
Public house was moved to pub a while ago. Unreal7 (talk) 20:28, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
@Peter Isotalo, in the proposal sports bra, training bra, and nursing bra are all listed as examples of articles which use bra over brassiere. This is not a case of formal versus informal, it would be perfectly appropriate to say the word bra to the Queen or the President of the United States (well it might be inappropriate, but not because the word 'bra' was used over 'brassiere'). Brassiere is an archaic term very rarely used. Ebonelm (talk) 23:21, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
Public house was just bizarre, but the bra-related compounds are very convincing, so support.
Peter Isotalo 20:41, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong support ..this is not like "film" vs "movie"; I use both words, film and movie. But in all the years I have used a bra, I have never called it a brassiere. Ever. Nor have I ever heard any of my female friends use the word. Not even shop assistants in lingerie-shops use it. The *only* place I have come across it is in literature. A move is overdue. Huldra (talk) 20:41, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
Comment: And why the heck is this article listed in categories: GA-Class Pornography articles, WikiProject Pornography articles and Mid-importance Pornography articles, GA-Class Sexuality articles?? I assume listing cucumber in the Sexuality articles-category is next. <facepalm> Huldra (talk) 21:32, 28 April 2015 (UTC) I removed two inappropriate wikiprojects. Huldra (talk) 21:58, 28 April 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Choice of images

Woman wearing an Elle Macpherson brand 30E.

I removed the photo entitled "Scarlett self photo30E.jpg" as an example of correct bra fit as it is clearly not. The model is clearly wearing too small a cup size and her nipples are almost popping out. The band is cutting into her back. It is an example of atrocious fit. DBrabazon (talk) 05:31, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Woman wearing a designer demi-cup bra.

I removed the image next to this post from the article because it's very unclear what it's supposed to illustrate. Brwa types are already depicted under "Types of bras". It's clearly a glamour-thype photo of a non-notable model with no special significance to the article. The pose is heavily stylized and focus is by no means on the bra. Adding random images of women in underwear to an article like this serves no encyclopedic purpose.

Peter Isotalo 20:56, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Where's another image illustrating the demi-cup style? --NeilN talk to me 21:02, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm sure there are hundreds of other bra styles not illustrated in the article. The word "demi-cup" is mentioned exactly once in the article (and once in the image caption), so it's not like it has major significance. This is an issue of weighing the need for specific illustrations against the quality or appropriateness of the images themselves.
Glamour shots like these detract from encyclopedic tone in the same way as bad prose. Articles like these should be illustrated with a minimum of tact given the potential for sexual objectification.
Peter Isotalo 21:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree, and don't really see much encyclopedic value to having it there. It's not even a good shot, given its soft focus and resolution. It also appears on List of brassiere designs so is largely redundant anyways - Alison ❤ 21:54, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
I completely agree. Remove the picture: it adds basically nothing. Huldra (talk) 22:05, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
I've given up on this article, but I will say it's nonsense to excise any images of women in bras that may be considered even remotely sexual. Bras are more than functional as demonstrated by the wide range in fashion choices available to them. And per Uplift: the Bra In America, this is not a new thing. For instance during the sexual revolution: "Some women expressed their sexuality more openly, wearing provacative apperal and "underfashions." Balie and Hollywood Vassarette showcase lacy brassieres that maximized cleavage and made "sure you're seen in the right places"". Given the demonstrable connection between bras, fashion, and dare I say it, symbols of feminine sexuality, removing the photograph is an act of censorship that would fit well in an orthodox religious community that keeps women in their chaste and modest places.Mattnad (talk) 01:06, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
It's not so much the boogeyman of 'censorship', as that it's just a poor quality image that adds little or nothing to the article. As I pointed out, there's another article documenting bra styles and the picture is in that, where it's marginally useful - Alison ❤ 02:14, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
You obviously are not a photographer. The use of soft focus is a very common technique, particularly for portraiture. And the original reason for removing the photo was sexual objectification of women, not composition. That's censorship for moralistic reasons and contrary to Wikipedia policy.
Your current arguments are convenient shift from that editors stance, but inconsistent considering other photographs in the article. For instance, the lede photograph is poorly lit, very poorly composed, and yet it survives. I'll add that outside of a single line in the lede, there's very little indication in this article that bras have any role as a popular expression of female sexuality. That defies reliable sources and common understanding of the garment.
That photo was less about a bra style, than a modern illustration of the bra as fashion and its common use by women for sex appeal. Showing the woman and the garments best achieved that purpose, and that was exactly the reason it was removed. That photograph, or an equivalent, should be in the article since there is none.Mattnad (talk) 02:45, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Photo of woman in bra
Mattnad, if you're concerned about the lead pic, why don't you find one that is better? And by better I mean one that doesn't feature a woman in a seductive pose, shot in mood lighting with that fuzzy-dreamy quality to it. It's the kind of picture I'd expect to see in someone's private photo album, not in an encyclopedia. This article isn't about portraiture, but clothing. If you want to illustrate how people take photos, there are other articles.
And as for censorship, compare with the image next to this post. If this was about censorship, we'd be calling for that one to be removed as well.
Peter Isotalo 12:11, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
"It's the kind of picture I'd expect to see in someone's private photo album," ergo proof of censorship. As for the other photo that dares to show a bra on a woman, that used to show the woman's face too. Decapitating that woman and only showing her breasts was done on behalf of those who argued we should only be focusing on the bras. Her face was just too much for the censor warriors. This article, as it now stands, is disconnected from how bras are not just there to support breast, and how women do wear them to look and feel sexy. Yes SEXY (did I dare to say that - OMG). Most of this article, outside of the practical usage and history section, is all about how bras are bad, and oppressive of women etc. It's pretty skewed and doesn't represent fully the fashion aspects and how women make bra choices for their aesthetics and beauty. The photo that so concerns your sensibilities does that, which is really why you want it removed.Mattnad (talk) 14:29, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
No, Matt. The image equivalent of copyediting is not censorship. Just let it go. The majority of all bra use is obviously not about sexuality and a bra is really nothing but a piece of clothing. The problem is that you're assuming that a sensual or sexualized image of someone wearing a bra is neutral.
Peter Isotalo 15:15, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Summary/Introduction section changes

The introduction to this article doesn't seem written for the purpose of explaining what a bra actually is. There's a ton of information that doesn't have a neutral prospective with uncited claims that, even if they are accurate and can be sourced, belong within a section of the article. More specifically:

This first paragraph should belong in a criticism section or something similar. "Women commonly wear bras to conform to social norms such as a dress code, or because they believe bras prevent breasts from sagging, a fact that even bra makers do not support. In western cultures, about 10-25% of women do not wear a bra, either as a matter of preference or sometimes for health or comfort reasons. Some garments, such as camisoles, tank tops and backless dresses, have built-in breast support, alleviating the need to wear a separate bra."

And this could belong in a section that describes a bras makeup and/or sizing. Changing social trends and novel materials have increased the variety of available designs, and allowed manufacturers to make bras that in some instances are more fashionable than functional. Bras are a complex garment made of many parts, and manufacturers' standards and sizes vary widely worldwide, making it difficult for women to find a bra that fits them correctly. Even methods of bra-measurement vary, such that even professional fitters can disagree on the correct size for the same woman. As a result, 75–85% of women wear a bra of an incorrect size.[1]"

This section should describe what a bra is all on its own and details like these should belong deeper in the article with a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Construct21 (talk • contribs) 07:32, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't disagree with anything you've written. This article has been mangled a few times by POV pushing.Mattnad (talk) 10:26, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
While the article specifically includes the technical details of what a bra is and the function it performs, the article of clothing also has significant social and economic implications. I think the lead is trying to address both. I believe the details you cited from the lead are a summary of content supported by references in the body of the article. If you just moved those items out of the lead to the relevant section, the lead would then fail to summarize the overall article. — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 16:30, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Trivia

Why, oh why are some editors set of filling this article with total trivia? Frankly, you could remove that second half of the article and no real knowledge would be lost. Like the "Prison security" and "Transportation security"etc. Utter trivia, Huldra (talk) 23:43, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Shutter bra

Waerloeg, I can find only two sources for a "Shutter Bra": one was an advertisement and the other is in a very brief mention in a book referring to the same brand, using initial caps, as used when referring to a brand. Bra styles, as in "nursing bra" or "athletic bra" are not referred to using initial caps. The Shutter Bra was very briefly a brand on sale, never a style that was widely adapted. I think the image of the Shutter Bra doesn't belong as a single style by itself and should be removed, unless you can provide additional evidence that it was a mainstream bra style that is comparable in usage to, for example, athletic bra or strapless bra. This also applies to its usage on List of brassiere designs. — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 23:23, 29 September 2015 (UTC) — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 23:23, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Lead image

Lead image has switched between five different pics recently (see gallery). Out of these, I prefer "modern-day #2" because it looks reasonably "average". It's naturally relevant for the image to display function, but the photo itself should be appropriate. In my view "modern-day #1" and "modern-day #3" are not appropriate photos. The former is a black-and-white glamour shot of rather fancy silk bra, and the latter pretty much reveals more breasts than it displays clothing.

Thoughts?

Peter Isotalo 11:08, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

  • A full-cup bra
    A full-cup bra
  • Drawing
    Drawing
  • A modern-day bra (1)
    A modern-day bra (1)
  • A modern-day bra (2)
    A modern-day bra (2)
  • A modern-day bra (3)
    A modern-day bra (3)

Most of the images on this page are obscene and sexist.

I'm good with "modern day number two". While not a very elegant pic, it does show the garment in full and also illustrates the support aspect. Thanks for hearing me out on this. Kafka Liz (talk) 11:36, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
I will say, though, that myself and many women I know favour the type of bra shown in "modern day one", even if what we have doesn't look precisely the same. So I disagree that the image is merely a glamour shot, but I am willing to compromise. Kafka Liz (talk) 11:46, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Modern Day 1 is the best quality pic. It's well lit, shows the bra clearly with good contrast and symmetry. Wikipedia does aspire to higher quality photographs, and of the series presented, this is the best. Yes, it's more expensive garment than most women use on a day to day basis, but it's still a fairly common design and color (much more so than the corseted, fully clothed Victorian woman). As for it being a glamour shot, that's more about the original source photo than this cropped version.Mattnad (talk) 13:11, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Stating my support for MD no.1, in case that wasn't clear. I'm open to compromise but also have preferences. Kafka Liz (talk) 13:52, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
I support the old picture: A full-cup bra. Is this an article for women searching for info about a (much needed) garment, or is this an article for ogling males...? Huldra (talk)
I'm not an ogling male, and I see nothing wrong with an image depicting bras that girls and women wear today, as opposed to what they wore in the late 50s. The article can be accurate without being puritanical. Kafka Liz (talk) 21:48, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Among those with larger cup-sizes those full-sized cups are the only ones which works. (But yeah, I would love to see a "newer" look). Here is apparently the worlds best selling bra...the one they never advertise.......it only sells....and sells...and sells. You see why: e.g.. the straps are where they should be: in the middle, straight over the nipples. And there is that significant band just under the cups, for support.
Btw, I found this NYtimes article interesting. Huldra (talk) 22:51, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Those do look comfy, in fairness, and look like something I might buy myself, but I'm still not sure they represent what the average lady might buy today. I also don't support the jog-bra image because it's a jog-bra. That's very different from what women wear on a day-to-day basis. I wear a jog-bra daily at the gym, but nowhere outside of it. Kafka Liz (talk) 19:16, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
My beef with "Modern bra #1" is not puritanical. The subtle sepia tone and the seductively placed hand strike me as unencyclopedic. Yes, it's of relatively high photographic quality, but the image is very obviously focused on bras as decoration, not as a functional, everyday garment.
Peter Isotalo 23:06, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
Peter, your original complaint was that it showed too much of the breast (which I think is really your objection). Now that a woman has proposed it, you can't say it's men pushing the photo, so you've shifted your argument that the photo is black and white (it not at all a sepia tone) as if black and white photography is somehow seductive. That's just bizarre. Bras are decorative and functional. The image depicts one that is both. That design is used when women want support and also want to show some cleavage. Yes.... women do that, and shaming them about it doesn't change that fashion choice.Mattnad (talk) 00:42, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
There was no "original complaint". I commented that "modern-day #3" was basically see-through.
You are the only one here who is trying to make this into some type of debate on morality. Focus on the article issues and don't make false claims about my argumentation or motivations.
Peter Isotalo 12:31, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
So you didn't write this with your edit summary, "black-and-white glamor pic of porn star in a silk half-cup is not representative", and "the latter pretty much reveals more breasts than it displays clothing." and Huldra didn't write, "Is this an article for women searching for info about a (much needed) garment, or is this an article for ogling males...?". No value judgements there? I'm tired of this kind of misogyny. There's is nothing wrong with the female breast, even larger ones in black and white, and this is an article about bras, not about conforming to to puritanical sensibilities of what women should do for a living, or the kinds of bras they wear.Mattnad (talk) 15:51, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
"The latter" refers to the latter image mentioned in the previous sentence ("In my view "modern-day #1" and "modern-day #3" are not appropriate photos.") Huldra's comment is for Huldra to comment on. Don't conflate it with my views.
As for your complaints, they appear very off-topic, especially the accusation of misogyny. Again, focus on content issues, not your views about other editors.
Peter Isotalo 16:02, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Prefer A modern-day bra (1). As for the rest of the thread, you're not being misogynistic, but you are being tendentious. Your nitpicking about the B&W photo is, pardon my French, bull-crap. It's a great pic, and a lot better than the others. Who cares if the original model does porn, or that her breasts are large. They are sufficiently covered, and the bra is very clear and prominent. It's also a good looking, high quality bra. As for Huldra, this is an article about bras, not a how to on how to find a "much needed garment" (which is really debatable - I only wear one when jogging).146.1.1.1 (talk) 19:32, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
I have made exactly zero complaints about breast size or exposure. You're citing Mattnad's egregious reinterpretation of my posts. Since I have been very clear about my motivations, I'll consider your posts to be a personal attack.
Peter Isotalo 19:47, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Fine, I'll take back the breast size, and focus on the subtle "sepia" tone, the bra quality, and your comments about her visible fingers to make my point.146.1.1.1 (talk) 19:55, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
Perfectly normal jeans pose?
What you mention are exactly the qualities that makes photos look more like snazzy fashion shoot or outright glamor pics. That's not what I'd expect in the lead illustration of an encyclopedic article about a garment. To me it's just as inappropriate as flowery, subjective language. I'm critical of this type of imagery for the same reason I'd be critical if we used the image to the right as the lead illustration for jeans.
And do we really need to argue the oddity a contemporary black-and-white photo that is clearly sepia-toned to establish... I dunno... mood? Just look at the uncropped version.[2]
Peter Isotalo 22:52, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
OK. I get it. You don't like Black and White photos. But you did very much prefer a very dark, and poorly lit color photo of a dated bra on a mannequin prior to Kafka Liz's change. I think User:Kafka Liz described your preferred bra pic as "what they wore in the late 50s". So in your view, if I have this right, is a vintage bra style in a bad color photo is better than a modern bra in a professional quality black and white photo. And strangely, you proposed for consideration at the start of this section a vintage black and white drawing of a fully clothed woman which is completely contrary to your current protestations. It's not really a strong argument IMHO, and you've helped to drive away a contributing female editor [based her edit summary of regret for getting involved here).Mattnad (talk) 23:21, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
And where, in any of wikipedia's guidelines on photos, do we disqualify a photo because it's black and white and well shot (or even too glamorous)? Your comment about the uncropped photo is irrelevant by the way. As cropped, the reader doesn't see any of that.Mattnad (talk)
Okay, just stop it, Matt. You are pulling stuff out of your ass in every other post directed at me. You warp an example of an obviously "sexed up" image as an issue with black and white photos, you conflate my views Huldra's to make me seem inconsistent, you imply I suggested all five at the to of the post even though I clearly put them up as examples of what had been used so far, and you accuse me of scaring off editors by referring to comments that are unrelated to me.
I don't view this as constructive discussion.
Peter Isotalo 00:03, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
At least you're being honest now. It's not that's it's Black and White, but that it's "obviously sexed up" in your view. Will you now drop the pretense about black and white photographs (and your example of the jeans pose)? And you're reading too quickly. I said you contributed to her leaving, not that you were the sole reason. I think your reverts with comments like "black-and-white glamor pic of porn star in a silk half-cup is not representative" is a sample of your discounting her contribution in an excessive way. You were critiquing her choices, her effort to make improvements, and did so in a dismissive way.
The original pic is not the topic of discussion, but you're fixated on that. To the average reader, all they see is a tight cropped view of a bra (the article topic) on a woman.Mattnad (talk) 00:58, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
  • In case it's helpful, Writing about women says: "Except when the topic is necessarily tied to it ... avoid examples of male-gaze imagery, where women are presented as objects of heterosexual male appreciation."
Modern-day bra 2 is the one that most avoids this, of the modern bras listed above, though I'd also consider depicting a sports bra. SarahSV (talk) 05:59, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd suggest something like the image on the right. SarahSV (talk) 06:12, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The guide on WAW uses upskirt photos as an example of male gaze. That's a far cry from a close-up of a bra in an article dedicated to the topic. The current lede image is a lot more like something from a department store catalog designed for female shoppers, except that it's cropped so close you cannot see the model's body and is more modest that way than many of the photos on Walmart's online shopping site. Both of your preferred photos show outerwear examples (the leopard print looks like a swimsuit top, even if it isn't). The article had featured a decent photo of an athlete in a sports bra BTW but it was removed without an explanation a few days ago. I'm scratching my head at that one.Mattnad (talk) 13:32, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
I´m fine with the picture on the right, good suggestion. Huldra (talk) 22:59, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Liz, the lead image ought to depict something common, something that most women might wear. For the sake of argument, that's all women 18–90 years and beyond, and not only in the Western world. That would probably rule out the current lead image. It might also rule out sports bras, I don't know. We should be looking for a high-quality image of something bog standard. Either that or an image of a collection of bras, or one that's interesting in some other way. I found this free one on Flickr of bras on a washing line, but the photographer has added his name to it and I can't be bothered fiddling with it at the moment. SarahSV (talk) 19:56, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I think you meant a different Liz. I stay away from this article (and Cleavage and Toplessness) because they are voyeuristic and some editors seem intensely invested in having certain images in the article that tickle their fancy.
I remember I had to fight to get a bikini wrestling match photo out of Blonde versus brunette rivalry and I kept being reverted until another editor who had been on Wikipedia longer had it removed and that edit stuck. That article should probably go to AfD, by the way. Liz Read! Talk! 20:10, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Sorry about that, Liz! I meant to ping Kafka Liz. I agree about the difficulty of working on these articles. I've just spent a depressing few minutes on Commons looking for bra images, which include for some reason pictures of women tied up. Posting another suggestion below. SarahSV (talk) 20:23, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry to have gotten you dragged in, Liz. I have a Highlander joke all geared up, but I suspect it's a bit obvious. I agree that there are, surprisingly, very few good bra pics. I'd like to see, ideally, something that looks like what what most women wear without being overtly sexualised. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd also like to say that this article is being reviewed as a GA, and we ought to look at more than just the lead image. Huldra has detailed below the over-emphasis on "bralessness", and I would appreciate it if others also took a look. Kafka Liz (talk) 23:26, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Well, Kafka Liz, I find it flattering to be confused for you. And you were here at Wikipedia first! I'm the "other Liz". Liz Read! Talk! 23:46, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

What about a close cropped pic from this? It's in color in natural sunlight, completely covers the breast, wouldn't show any fingers (cover Peter's previous objections).

The only negative is that it's not white or tan, which are the most common colors.Mattnad (talk) 00:57, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

How is a bikini top relevant to this article?
Peter Isotalo 01:15, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Take a look at the cropped version.Mattnad (talk) 01:35, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


I agree that the framing is better, but it's not a bra. Or am I missing something here?
Peter Isotalo 01:42, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Yes you are missing something. It looks identical to bra, and as depicted is a bra. What about the cropped image tells you it's not a bra? It has an underwire, the structure, and usage. We have drawings of "bras" that are not bras in the article.Mattnad (talk) 01:47, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Perhaps we should simply move the gallery (below) that's already in the article into the lead. The point of the lead image is to inform, but everyone knows what a bra looks like, so just about any bra image is going to look lame, unless there's something unusual about the photograph. The style gallery is actually informative, and it avoids the problems the sexualized images bring. I added it here using the multiple-image template. I'll self-revert until there's consensus.
  • Plunge
    Plunge
  • Full-cup
    Full-cup
  • Balconette
    Balconette

SarahSV (talk) 01:52, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

It's not a bad idea, although we'd probably want to avoid repeating the same images in the main article, but there's value in bringing the Black and White pic into the main article as a clear illustration of a modern bra. And while it may give some editors the vapors, some bras are designed with aesthetics in mind (lace, nicer materials, styling, push-up designs etc.)Mattnad (talk) 02:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
I think the gallery is preferable. The illustrations are simple and focused. I would not object to photos of equivalent neutrality and clarity, but I have yet to see any.
Peter Isotalo 02:27, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
I like this option. Kafka Liz (talk) 06:14, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Having this as the lead picture(s) is absolutely the best option, so far. Informative and neutral. Well done! Huldra (talk) 20:28, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks everyone, and thank you Liz for restoring it. SarahSV (talk) 21:07, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
I'm glad we are in agreement here. I would like to see the article improved as well, if possible, though, though I confess that I'm not hugely excited by the prospect. Kafka Liz (talk) 21:20, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
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