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Bo/Bai

[edit]

I think the fact that Bo himself pronounced it "Bo" makes it conclusive as to which pronunciation should be used here -- whether that is "correct" or not (which is disputed anyway) is beside the point. If, for example, Miroslav Satan suddenly wants people to pronounce his name the way that Satan is pronounced, you respect those wishes. See also, for example, Matt Diaz. --Nlu (talk) 02:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the title of this article should be Bo Yang, not Bai Yang. But Bai Yang should be mentioned in the lead section as an alternative pronunciation. I have provided references including Xinhua Zidian and Modern Chinese Dictionary (现代汉语词典) to prove that 柏 is pronounced as Bai when used as a surname in Standard Mandarin. This information is useful and it is the reason why Bai Yang redirects here. I have two friends whose surname is 柏. One of them is from Sichuan and the other is from Hainan. Both of them call 柏 as Bai. Of course Wikipedia should respect this writer's own preference on his surname's pronunciation. But Wikipedia should also provide information on how a billion people pronounce this character. And in some, if not many, Chinese universities' libraries, 柏杨 is listed as Bai Yang in reference system like this and this.--Neo-Jay (talk) 11:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I looked up the dictionaries cited as sources in the footnote. If I could make a couple of observations:

  • The Xinhua Zidian is not as reliable a source as the other three sources. It is a little "pocket dictionary" and by its nature is not comprehensive nor authoritative to the same degree as the other three sources.
  • The Xiandai Hanyu Cidian is an authoritative source for modern Chinese usage, and it says that 柏 is pronounced as Bai in all contexts except when used to transliterate Berlin: 柏林, when it is pronounced Bo.
  • The Cihai is just as authoritative as the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian, and in matters of etymology or usage often far more authoritative. It says that 柏 is pronounced as Bo except in the context of the cypress tree: 柏树, when it is pronounced Bai.
  • The Shiyong Hanyu Zidian is from the same series of publications as the Gu Hanyu Zidian, and is very authoritative for traditional usage, and fairly authoritative for modern usage, and it agrees with the Cihai. As a character dictionary, it is more comprehensive on characters than the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian.

All in all, we can see two competing, authoritative theories as to how the two alternative pronunciations divide. However, both are supported by high authority and I do not think it is fair to say one is more correct than the other. Given this, and given that Bo Yang pronounced his name as "Bo", the other pronunciation is incorrect in the specific instance of his name and should not be listed here. As Nlu says, you respect how the person wants his or her name to be pronounced.

As to how "a billion" Chinese read it -- in most southern dialects the character is pronounced closer to the medieval pronunciation, regardless of context. I suspect that the pronunciation is still geographically separated. In northern China, there probably is a tendency to shift Bo to Bai -- as is the case with 伯. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

off topic: this reminds me of the dispute at Li Na (daughter of Mao Zedong), where the issue also was the difference between the traditional pronunciation of the character (Na) versus the "modern" pronunciation (Ne).... I guess I'll comment there. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Cihan is a traditional Chinese dictionary and is not reliable source for modern Chinese. 实用汉字字典 is apparently not as authoritative as 现代汉语词典. It's no fair to remove the alternative spelling information from the text especially when it has been supported by authoritative modern Chinese dictionaries. By the way, 柏 has three pronunciations in Xiandai Hanyu Cidian: Bó, Bò (a name of a tree), and Bǎi. Please check it again. --Neo-Jay (talk) 12:07, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also believe that the use of "Bai" here would implicitly denigrate the authoritative nature of Taiwanese sources -- and the ROC Ministry of Education uses "Bo."[1] The fact that the pronunciation, whether "official" of not, shifted in the PRC, is not particularly relevant. Bo himself never lived in the PRC, and his works were primarily (perhaps exclusively?) initially published in the ROC. --Nlu (talk) 12:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re: three pronunciations: the other two sources also list the Bò pronunciation. I should have said that, apart from its use in the context of "黄檗", the dictionaries divide the usage as described.
The Cihai is only a traditional Chinese dictionary in the sense that it has a long provenance (the first modern Chinese dictionary) and is traditionally a respected authority. It is an encyclopaedic and etymological dictionary in the vein of the Oxford English Dictionary. When it comes to etymology and usage it is much more authoritative than the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian.
What do you mean by "apparently not as authoritative"?
To Nlu: I think the pronunciation has only shifted in northern China, which might be why authoritative dictionaries published in Shanghai do not recognise such a vowel shift.
As I said above, we have authoritative sources, some recording such a shift and some not. You can't say either is right or wrong. However, a person's name is pronounced the way he pronounces it. He can choose to use a hieroglyph and tell you to read it as "The Artist" if he wants to - and that's how you "pronounce" his name. You can't tell him he's reading it "wrong". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a policy forum we can bring this issue to? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To Nlu: This writer's books are also published in PRC. Please see the links I provided above to the PRC's universities' libraries. To PalaceGuard008: I am not arguing that Bo is wrong. Since you also agree that we can't say either is right or wrong, why shouldn't we provide just an alternative pronunciation? If we removed the Bai Yang completely from Wikipedia, readers will be confused why this writer is also referred to as Bai Yang in mainland China (see my universities' libraries' links). --Neo-Jay (talk) 12:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) University library links are not... reliable sources for biographical details I'm afraid. I believe it is sufficient that Bai Yang is redirected here (if appropriate) and the situation is explained in the footnotes. We can't say whether either pronunciation is right or wrong with respect to the character, but the man clearly had only one name and that was "Bo Yang", not "Bai Yang". Here are some "official" sources from the PRC using "Bo Yang": http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-04/29/content_8074533.htm, http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90782/91341/6401306.html. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 12:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Chiang Kai-shek also has only one name. And he also refers to himself as Chiang Kai-shek (translated as Jiang Gaishi in pinyin) in Zhejiang accent. But the article also lists Jiang Jieshi as an alternative pronunciation in Standard Mandarin.--Neo-Jay (talk) 13:01, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why can't the opening line simply say:

Bo Yang (known as Bai Yang in the peoples' Republic of China), was a .....

See Wuikinuxv for a case where there are multiple "official" names (of many I could refer you to).Skookum1 (talk) 12:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support. This is just what I hope: adding an alternative spelling to the text. --Neo-Jay (talk) 13:01, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously, Bo's works are "also published" in the PRC, but they were first published in the ROC. The fact that Harry Potter is "also published" in the United States, for example, does not make J. K. Rowling an American writer or mean that her British usages should be Americanized.
But what I mean by the use of "Bai" here implying that the ROC sources are "wrong" is this: a previous edit from Neo-Jay used this language in the opening line:
(Traditional: 柏楊; Simpliified: 柏杨; Hanyu Pinyin: Băi Yáng; Taiwanese Mandarin: Bó Yáng; ...)
I do object to this language fairly strongly. This implies that 1) "Bo" is a Taiwanese mispronunciation and 2) that "correct" Hanyu Pinyin would require a pronunciation of "Bai." Given that there is a dispute, implying that "Bo" is a mispronunciation is highly inappropriate in light of Bo's own use of "Bo." To be honest, I believe that any use of "Bai" in the article, besides an explanatory footnote, would be inappropriate. It should be noted that the PRC and its official agencies have no monopoly on determining what is correct Mandarin (or what is correct Hanyu pinyin, for that matter).
As for "official name" -- Bo himself always used "Bo." That, in my opinion, makes that pronunciation "official" over any other pronunciation. Any implication otherwise is disrespectful. The situation with Chiang Kai-shek is inapposite because, as noted, "Chiang Kai-shek" is a Zhejiang dialect pronunciation, not Mandarin, where as "Bo" is not a Henan or Taiwanese dialect pronunciation. Moreover, "Jiang Jieshi" is the accepted Mandarin pronunciation of the name, whether in the ROC, the PRC, or elsewhere, whereas if you talk about "Bai Yang" in Taiwan, no one will know whom you are referring to as that is not a recognized pronunciation of the name, "official" or not, in Taiwan. --Nlu (talk) 13:01, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My edit does not imply in any sense that Bo is wrong and Bai is right. If my edit misled anyone, I apologize. The two pronunciations are informative and descriptive. No one here is arguing that the PRC should have monopoly on the correct mandarin. I am only arguing that another spelling should be also mentioned in the text. Don't read too much into my argument. Thanks. And please don't argue that Taiwan or this wirter himself should have the monopoly power. You are right that Bo is not a Henan or Taiwanese dialect. But Bo is just one of the pronunciations for surname 柏 in mandarin. And Bai Yang, not Bo Yang, is the recognized pronunciation in mainland China (I am not talking about the readers of Xinhua English News, but a real Chinese person). Many Chinese readers will search Bai Yang, not Bo Yang, for this writer. Let me provide a news video by CCTV. This writer's name is clearly pronounced as Bai Yang, not Bo Yang. --Neo-Jay (talk) 13:20, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will add this: as far as I am concerned, the current language[2] is acceptable. (I'll also say that Deng Kebao (鄧克保) should be noted somewhere in the article as a pen name, although I have not added that myself since I still have not decided on the appropriate way to refer to it. Someone else is welcome to take a crack at the appropriate way to work it in.) Meanwhile, I do also think WP:BLP applies, although I'll admit that it is not particularly conclusive here as to what that policy requires. --Nlu (talk) 13:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It may be interesting to note that in Mac OS X (Leopard) (not that it is an authoritative source), 柏楊 is in the dictionary under Bo Yang, and entering Bai Yang gets you 白楊. --Nlu (talk) 13:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This information is interesting and refreshing. Let's continue our serious discussion. Thanks. --Neo-Jay (talk) 13:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) means that we should use the name that is common to other people, not the name used by the person himself or herself. If a person called him or herself as A, but all the other people call him or her as B, then B, not A, should be the title of the article. Liu Che in the Han Dyansty of course could not call himself Emperor Wu of Han because this name was granted after his death. But the article is still titled as Emperor Wu of Han because this is the common name to others. Bo Yang is used as the title of the article not just because it is the name the writer himself uses, but because this is a common name used widely by other groups. This implies that if there is another name also well known, that name should be at least mentioned in the text. There is no reason that the writer's own pronunciation of his surname should exclude any other pronunciation. --Neo-Jay (talk) 14:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody, as far as is in evidence, other than Neo-Jay, some dude on CCTV, and a couple of automated library catalogues, thinks "Bo Yang"'s name is pronounced as "Bai Yang", not in Taiwan, not in the PRC, nor anywhere else.
As I've pointed out above, the Xinhua News Agency and the People's Daily, mouthpieces of the PRC and the Communist Party of China respectively, record his name as Bo Yang.
The state of dictionary definitions is highly irrelevant to the pronunciation of a person's name: as Neo-Jay pointed out, the question is what others call him. The question is not what the dictionary says the characters that make up his name are, should, or were pronounced. And in any case, the state of dictionary authorities can at best be described as "disputed", even in the PRC.
This is not a PRC vs Taiwan issue. It is a "what Bo Yang calls himself and what everyone else calls him" vs "what a few mandarin-dialect speakers, supported by a couple of automated library catalogues".
I was born in the PRC, and it has never occurred to me (or anyone I have had conversation on the topic with) that his name would be pronounced as anything but Bo Yang. It seems to me quite clearly cut: the character is pronounced as "bai" when talking about the cypress tree, and "Bo" when used in a person's name. Perhaps some people from other areas of China pronounce their own names differently - but that is an acceptable regional difference. The fact nevertheless remains that Bo Yang is called "Bo Yang" by himself and by all reliable sources.
I don't see this as a "naming convention" issue. It is a question of reliable source, and I don't feel Neo-Jay has raised any reliable sources to show that this person is called anything but Bo Yang. Dictionaries - except biographical dictionaries - are not reliable sources about the person.
Seaching "Bo Yang" on Google brings up a tonne of hits referring to this writer. Seaching "Bai Yang" brings up no relevant hits at all. I think the issue is quite clear cut.
If this dispute cannot be resolved, I would like to suggest seeking dispute resolution procedures. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's offensive for you to call someone as dude on CCTV. Please remain civil. CCTV is the national official television of China. It's pronunciation apparently reflects how Chinese people actually read the person's name. I was also born in the PRC and am living in the PRC. Most people around me read this name as Bai Yang, not Bo Yang. And it is not just a couple of automated library catalogues. The National Library of China also translates 柏杨 as Bai Yang. If this is not reliable source, then what is?? Bai Yang is apparently an alternative spelling for this person's name. --Neo-Jay (talk) 05:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(the following post is transcribed from User talk:Neo-Jay as requested) Hey, I've thought a bit more about these articles. My view, still, is that the article should record what they are actually called. Since Wikipedia only trusts reliable sources, this means we only record what they are actually called by reliable sources. Even if that pronunciation is "wrong" according to a character dictionary, or there is another pronunciation that should be equally valid according to a character dictionary, if there are no reliable sources backing up that usage as applied to this person, then it shouldn't be recorded.

So I can accept "Li Ne" being recorded in the Li Na article because it is represented by reliable sources, which, though fewer in number, are at least as reliable as the sources recording "Li Na".

By contrast, however, "Bai Yang" should not be recorded in the Bo Yang article in my view because I have not yet seen a reliable source that records this pronunciation for this subject. I'm not prepared to accept the CCTV video for several reasons. First, as generally accepted in the WP:RS context, television is less reliable than print media; Secondly, it is difficult to ascertain that it was not simply a careless or ignorant error. By contrast, something like Xinhua - or another newspaper source - is more reliable. If you can find some reliable print media sources that show "Bai Yang" being used, then I am prepared to accept that name being in the text of the article.

Character dictionary sources, in my view, can at best explain the discrepancy in pronunciation. Unless they contain a direct quote concerning the person in question, they cannot demonstrate a usage that is otherwise unattested by reliable sources. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The National Library of China's catalogue is not a reliable source for biographical information, and neither is a non-documentary television segment.
Please point out how dude is derogatory, or else withdraw your rude accusation. In my language, "dude" simply means "man (colloquial)".
It's very simple. Your anecdotal evidence is not a reliable source. As I said, every single mention of this man has been "Bo Yang" in my experience. "Bai Yang" is probably restricted to one dialect or region of China - you refuse to accept that, but that's fine. We have print media biographical articles, and government biographical publications all pointing towards "Bo Yang". Bring up at least one source that matches those in reliability, and is biographical in nature. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 07:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, PalaceGuard008, some dude in Australia, why isn't National Library of China's catalogue a reliable source for biographical information? Please bring up at least one evidence to support your argument. And at least three published English books refer to this writer as Bai Yang at Google Book Search. Enough? Are they still simply careless or ignorant errors? --Neo-Jay (talk) 07:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well wasn't that easy? Now if you could tone down the hostility, I'm sure we could move future discussions along much more easily.
And for your information, a library catalogue is not a reliable source for biographical information, because it is not intended nor actually used as a source for biographical information. It is a database, where translation is probably automated. If you dispute this, take it to WP:RS and seek an opinion there.
Is it a careless or ignorant errors? I think so - yes. But I am also aware that my own opinion is not a reliable source. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 08:40, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean that you have agreed to accept Bai Yang being recorded in this article? If so, I will re-add it. --Neo-Jay (talk) 08:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, my preferred wording would be something like "Bo Yang (Chinese language info), also [sometimes/occasionally] called Bai Yang[ref listing the 3 book references]..." --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Boyang

[edit]

If the man's name was actually Boyang, that's where the article should be. We can hatnote the dab to Poyang. — LlywelynII 16:35, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can we get a citation on the following sentence: 'His pen name is often written incorrectly in romanisation as "Bo Yang," as if his surname were actually Bo, but Boyang was simply a pen name he chose for himself during the 1960s in Taiwan.'

It is written as 'Bo Yang' in romanisation by the People's Daily (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90782/91341/6401306.html), which seems pretty correct to me. It also looks very weird in the context of the article, given that the disclaimer above reads: 'This is a Chinese name; the family name is Bo.' Musikxpert (talk) 01:56, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm unilaterally declining the merge, because it's from an individual to a town. Now if you want to discuss doing a disambig page, that'll work, but a merge, in this case, dosen't. Sven Manguard Wha? 23:12, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The town name is also written with different characters to the writer's name - they are different names that just happen to be pronounced the same. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:32, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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