Talk:Blackrocks Brewery

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 05:43, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that a fence running around Blackrocks Brewery is decorated with hundreds of used skis? Source: "Surrounding the property are hundreds of old skis nailed to the fence like insistent vines." [1]
  • ALT1:... that Blackrocks Brewery is the second largest brewery in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan? Source: See the Keweenaw Brewing and Blackrocks sections here
  • ALT2:... that Blackrocks Brewery was created by two unemployed pharmaceutical salesmen? Source: "The two former pharmaceutical salesmen said if either of them lost their jobs, they would start the brewery." [2]

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Thomas Wallace (RAF officer)

Created/expanded by The ed17 (talk). Self-nominated at 19:21, 17 May 2020 (UTC).

• New enough, long enough. The article itself is cited, neutral, and does not contain noticable copyvios from reading the cited article and Earwigs. AGF for sentences where only the Magnaghi source is provided. Hook 1's "hundreds of used skis" is a bit unclear in terms of the actual number of skis: the source seems to imply hundreds as in "a lot of skis", while the hook seems to imply the literal meaning of hundred. I personally prefer ALT2 since the two seeminng unrelated fields makes the hook more interesting.

• Thanks, Ganbaruby! Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 16:49, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Pre-FAC review

Pre-FAC review as promised.

• Looking at the sources first. What makes the following reliable?
  • marquettemagazine.com -- Per the note at the end of the story it was owned and run by one person at the time the story appeared, though it now seems to be corporately owned.
  • growlermag.com
• I see the only source for the details on the notable beers table is the brewery itself. If that's so, are those details truly worth including? Should we just list the beers identified as notable by other sources rather than add these details?

Will do a prose review next. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• "This practice expanded during the COVID-19 pandemic, when people were forbidden from congregating indoors, to campfires and tents": suggest "During the COVID-19 pandemic, when people were forbidden from congregating indoors, they added campfires and tents."
• "the taproom-adjacent property at": can we just say "the property next door at"?
• "They also built in a proper stage for musical acts": I don't think you need "proper".
• "The city commission required Blackrocks to add noise dampening around that patio": I was wondering about zoning and how they got permission to put a bar in a residential neighbourhood. Is there more information about that?
• Can we get a link for "fermentor"? Perhaps to Brewing#Fermentation methods?
• "gave patrons a custom large ceramic mug which are hung in the taproom" number mismatch between subject and verb.
• "The mugs held a greater quantity of beer that would be sold at the regular price": if I understand this correctly, how about "The mugs held more beer than the glasses given to patrons without mugs, but could be filled at the same price"?
• Any more details available about the golden ticket? I'm not quite clear how that works or what one would have to find.

Generally looks pretty good. It's very short, but I think it covers the material appropriately. -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:35, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Mike Christie. Really, really appreciate these thorough thoughts.

• Marquette Magazine: Good question. I'm realizing that I confused Marquette Magazine with Marquette Monthly, which is a longstanding little magazine published and distributed locally on paper (in addition to online these days). I believe the only info Marquette Magazine supported was the exact opening date, so I removed it as that's covered by Magnaghi.
• Growler's pandemic closure was covered by a variety of regional news sources, e.g. the Star Tribune and St. Paul Pioneer Press, so I treated this as an established outlet for the purposes of RS.

  I think that's probably OK, but it may come up again at FAC. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• Campfires and tents: fixed
• Property next door: fixed. There was a thought I had around distinguishing that property from the canning building, but the context around that sentence makes it very clear what we're referring to.
• Proper stage: fixed
• Noise dampening: I lived in Marquette, so I personally know that noise has been a concern in the surrounding neighborhood. The brewery is located on a local commercial corridor, and you can see all the other stores aligned north/south on Google Maps/similar + that just about everything west and east of it is residential. But strangely, the only other source I could find was a one I removed the other day. It's probably borderline reliable in the sense that the person running it back then was an established journalist before starting that blog (and that blog was referenced in local news outlets), but I didn't think I could prove that under Wikipedia's definition, let alone FAC's. I'd welcome your thoughts on if there's a better way to handle this, as I'm at a dead end.

  No problem, I was just checking to see if more info was available, but it's fine as it is. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

• Fermentor: done
• Ceramic mug: fixed
• Golden tickets: It's a literal golden ticket that they hide on public land and give clues to on social media. A treasure hunt for adults, basically. I've added a few extra details. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 20:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Fixes are good; I commented on a couple. I don't think you responded re the question about the table of beers? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: Whoops, I missed that line! I originally had those beers named in the prose, but that many of them over a few sentences felt like a lot. I ended up taking the table idea from Bell's Brewery#Beers. I could drop the ABV/IBU fields and everything in the notes column except "discontinued"? (The styles are effectively all covered in the secondary sources.) Or it could go back to prose? Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 05:55, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

No, I think we can keep the table if the brewery itself is only the source for some of the details, and those columns seem fine to source to the brewery. Do the other sources identify these beers as notable in some way, as opposed to simply mentioning them in passing? I'm asking if we can justify this table specifically as "these are the notable beers", rather than just ones that happen to have been mentioning in passing in third party reviews. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I see! I'd say 5–9 are mentioned in passing in 1–2 sources max, particularly this MLive article, and under that standard could be removed. (And I've done so.) Grand Rabbits/Coconut Brown have also gotten brief attention, but in many more sources because they were standouts and widely distributed early on. 51K, Mykiss, and Honey Lav have gotten more descriptive write-ups, especially the last one there. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 17:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

That sounds fair. I think this looks ready to nominate. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:19, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I am incredibly grateful for the time you spent on this. Thanks, Mike! Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 02:58, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Restructure for consideration

@The ed17: Thanks for your work on this article, which I discovered from a notification at WikiProject Food and drink. I don't want to step on toes, but I've shared a restructure for your consideration. It is a simpler framework with Description, History, and Reception, but I don't feel strongly if you prefer the previous structure. I've self-reverted, but you're welcome to restore or implement any of my changes if you prefer. Good luck at FAC! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Hey Another Believer! Thanks very much for the proposal, and sorry for the delay while I've been away for the US holiday weekend. I like where you're going, but part of the description/location section also contains history, so I'll think about how to tweak it! Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Still thinking about this, but I'll take any actions post-FAC. I'd like to avoid disrupting that process, and it shouldn't change the reviewing experience as it's a content reorg rather than major update. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Removed information pending update

I removed this paragraph from the article as Bells Brewery is no longer a "craft" brewery under the Brewers Association's definition. That would move Blackrocks up one place alone, and they've also significantly increased production since 2021 (passing Keweenaw in the process).

As of 2021, Blackrocks was the ninth-largest brewery in Michigan by total production, rising 17% from the COVID-affected year prior. Its production that year made it the second largest brewery in the Upper Peninsula behind the Keweenaw Brewing Company, and raised it up from tenth place a few years earlier.

The data to update this should be here, but it's locked behind a membership. I'll see if I can get access. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:32, 10 June 2024 (UTC) Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 03:32, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Update on this: I could not get access. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 04:49, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Instagram citation for the meaning behind "51K"

In case it's deleted at some point in the future, the citation to @blackrocksbrewery's Instagram has the following text. (It doesn't seem like the Internet Archive can properly archive the page.)

Do you know the origin story of 51K IPA?

It all begins in the early days of the brewery , and the Noquemanon Ski Marathon weekend. We had been brewing/tweaking an American IPA at the pub and needed a name for the most recent variation. With the beer ready in time for the race weekend, where the finish line is just down Third Street from the Pub, about a Kilometer away, this is how the name was born.

Finishing the 50K ski race is a tremendous accomplishment, and after such an exhausting activity, a fresh IPA can be a simple but wonderful reward. So the name implies, if you ski (or walk, or drive) one more kilometer after the finish line up to the pub your race is finished and reward is waiting in the form of a cold, delicious IPA and a warm seat to share your ski stories with friends.

Since then the 51K has continued on to represent exploring the beautiful nature around us via silent sports, and a portion of its sales have been funneled to the protection and maintenance of multi-use trails around our beautiful state. Most notably the trails we and our customers use regularly, which are maintained by the Noquemanon Trail Network.

As we approach another Noque race weekend, we are honored to have 51K IPA continue to be the official beer of the Noquemanon Ski Marathon.

We look forward to sharing a pint and hearing your stories.

Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 04:48, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Logo

Is there a vector version of the logo? I find it quite weird that an article can promoted to FA status while the logo is a JPEG, even though it is quite flatly designed. PhotographyEdits (talk) 11:07, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@PhotographyEdits: First, vectorized logos are not in the FA criteria. :-) (Edit: I stand corrected, as the criteria call out WP:IUP which in turn has a bullet about preferring, although not mandating, vectorized logos.)

But also per {{Should be SVG}}, "Do not re-draw or auto-trace non-free images; instead, seek out vector versions from official sources." As far as I'm aware, there is no vector version of the logo available online. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 15:37, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Size of Barrel

Reading this article there seems to be no reference to SI or other commonly used units of volume. Contrary to the manual of style, all the information on Barrels might be great for this brewery but of no use to anyone else reading the article. What sort of volume are we talking about? Avi8tor (talk) 14:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Avi8tor: The reference to other units of measurement is in footnote #1. I added an additional call to that footnote to where I suspect you got frustrated by the lack of a conversion. Does that help? The article previously included conversions for each figure, but per the FAC it made the paragraph nearly unreadable. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 15:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The figure you quote appears to be incorrect according to https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Template:Convert/list_of_units/volume. I think most people will not click on a footnote, You need to have a convert template so the information is visible in the article, we're here to inform and educate. 1 US beer barrel (31 US gal; 120 L) Copy and paste the convert template (convert|1|USbeerbbl|usgal l) to the article. I'm amazed someone is still using this. I toured a brewery in Baltimore a few years back and all the equipment was from Germany and the gauges in the brewery were all metric. The volume of the barrels used was not mentioned. Avi8tor (talk) 13:59, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

{{Convert}} is likely rounding the conversion in that table. I've sourced the article's figures to a reliable source, so I'd prefer that over our template. For the rest of your post, I would point you to the final sentence in my previous message. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 15:43, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

The reason I started this discussion was because there was no reference to any commonly used unit, so just having barrels is not working and hiding it in a footnote does not help either. The convert template is used everywhere in Wikipedia so it can work here as well, I fail to see how it could be nearly unreadable. There used to be barrels of all sorts of sizes. The Manual of Style gives the answer. Avi8tor (talk) 19:33, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the reviewer at the FAC that the usage of convert made it unreadable -- take a look at the FAC to see the version referred to. It's not the usage of convert that's the issue, I feel, it's the resulting text with the indigestible list of quantities. If you can suggest a readable version of that sentence, go ahead; we can worry after that about whether to use the convert template to create that sentence. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:03, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I edited the page, plugged in the convert template and it's perfectly readable to anyone on the planet. Avi8tor (talk) 07:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I disagree, where is the usage of convert in the FAC? This article is missing important information which I needed and could not find when reading the article. I think my suggestion is a perfectly good compromise, I see nowhere that my suggestion was even tried before I edited it to include the convert template information for your viewing. You might know all about the size of barrels, but I don't. I think you are being unnecessarily uncompromising. Avi8tor (talk) 12:56, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

The information is available via a footnote that I think almost every reader of Wikipedia can be expected to understand how to use, and the position of the footnote indicates what it is that it will explain. I don't think you're being unreasonable in suggesting that the conversion should be inline; I just think (as do two other editors) that the footnote is a better choice. If you want to see the original comment in the FAC, search for the word "unreadable", though the version objected to there was longer and less readable than what you're proposing. Let's see if other editors comment before changing it again. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:15, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that "one-barrel (1 US beer barrel (31 US gal; 120 L))" is not ideal. However, I do see good reason to include standard measurements in the main text of the article. A possible rephrase that could help make the sentence flow a bit better and more prominently include the conversion: Blackrocks' original brewing system only had capacity for one barrel (31 US gallons or 120 liters) and was located in the basement of its taproom. Cerebral726 (talk) 13:15, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I think from experience the majority, >90% of Wikipedia readers would never click on a footnote, I edit and only if I want the source do I look at the references. With the information on one barrel you can easily figure out what the brewing capacity of the brewery is, but I read this and thought "how big is this barrel". The answer should be there for everyone without additional searches. Avi8tor (talk) 14:45, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Cerebral726's suggestion is definitely an improvement on the straight use of convert. Ed, what do you think? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:44, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Avi8tor, Cerebral726, and Mike Christie: I've added a similar edit into the article. I kept the second footnote in the third paragraph of #Operation because with six different barrel figures there, it may be helpful to someone. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 17:17, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

This is the best I've seen yet so I find it acceptable. Avi8tor (talk) 13:21, 10 August 2024 (UTC)