Talk:Black caiman

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A fact from Black caiman appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 17 November 2004. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Black Caiman is both the world's largest alligator and the Amazon Basin's largest predator?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2004/November.

Wikipedia

Sources

Credible citations are needed for the assertions that the black caiman reaches 20 feet and is capable of taking puma and jaguars. Most scientists cap the length as 15 feet and state that reports of longer specimens are unsubstantiated. Likewise, predation on the jaguar is something that needs to be proven. I'll leave the page as is for now but will revise the length and remove the jaguar predation snippet at some point down the line unless sources can be provided. 149.79.54.95 13:49, 10 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article image

The photograph originally appended to this article is most emphatically NOT a black caiman. The pictured animal possesses the angular "tabs" on the eyelids of the spectacled and broad-snouted caimans, it lacks the prominent rostral ridges of the black caiman, the snout is correspondingly too shallow, the eye sockets are too short, and it is solid black, whereas the "black" caiman is actually prominently striped, with pronounced blotches on the lower jaw, even as an adult. The animal pictured is a spectacled caiman, probably a brown caiman (believed to be common in the pet trade); the spectacle is remarkably weak, probably from pachyostosis in captivity. 72.177.116.124 15:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A clarification about the identity of the caiman in the picture, it is in fact a yacare caiman at the Vancouver Aquarium. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pristis microdon (talk • contribs) 01:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do anacondas eat black caimans?

According to the black caiman article, black caimans have no predators. But according to the anaconda article, anacondas eat caimans. Anyone like to clear this up? Raffles mk 05:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to the article I have, anacondas can handle fully grown spectacled caimans and spectacled caimans are considered very small. I also have a list of specific anaconda meals and 5 spectacled caimans being eaten by anacondas has been documented. However, the list is absent of black caimans. Black caimans are more or less too powerful for anacondas to eat though I can see a large anaconda taking on a small black caiman that's immature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.137.56 (talk) 23:15, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Predators

Humans killing black caiman for their hide are not actual predators. Being an apex predator, the black caiman has no predators. I deleted the section predator. Furthermore, this article is really crappy. It has bad grammar, bad writing, and dubious facts. Firstly, I don't think the black caiman is the second largest crocodile, because it is not a crocodile at all, it is a crocodilian, and a Nile Crocodile is as big as a saltwater crocodile. Also, the intro said it is threatened, where as the status thing says they are not threatened, just conservation dependent. Gtbob12 (talk) 20:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe you mean the article uses poor grammar. ;) 68.148.123.76 (talk) 23:12, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Largest caiman

Mokele what is the largest black Caiman ever recorded? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.83.100.52 (talk) 00:37, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are unconfirmed reports of 6m individuals, and while we know they can hit 4m, it's uncertain how much more. There seems to be an exceptional lack of data on this species prior to being decimated by hunters. Mokele (talk) 16:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now Least Concern

They are now least concern http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/13053/0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by PaleoMatt (talk • contribs) 16:46, 16 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Natural vegetation and wildlife

No 2409:4043:2C8F:24F4:1236:DF29:5483:2F2C (talk) 09:03, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Outdated misinformation

The Black caiman based on a VERIFIED source caps out at 4.7m and anything stating otherwise is just a baseless claim besides possibly the 58.8 cm Dcl from UF 53600. Black caimans also have been shown again and again to be a docile, shy, and skittish species, Medem is a renowned Croc scientist and anything of that should not be revoked. Caiman Enthusiast (talk) 11:28, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mass versus Length

Never do herpetologists consider the reticulated python as the largest serpent because the green anaconda is way bulkier with a similar length. The word "largest" is misleading since the American alligator is heavier on average. RoyalRover (talk) 10:36, 4 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Questions regarding the maximum length & mass of this species arise from this paragraph:

Several widely reported but unconfirmed (and probably largely anecdotal) reports claim that the black caiman can grow to over 6.1 m (20 ft 0 in) in length and weigh up to 1,100 kg (2,400 lb).^[1]^[2]^[3] While it is unclear what the sources for this maximum size are, many scientific papers accept that this species can attain extreme sizes as such.^[4]^[5]^[6] In South America, two other crocodilians reportedly reach similar sizes: the American crocodile (Crocodylus acutus) and the Orinoco crocodile (C. intermedius).

Citation

^ Black Caiman, Black Caiman Skull. Dinosaurcorporation.com. Retrieved on 2012-08-23.
^ Crocodilian Species – Black Caiman (Melanosuchus niger). Crocodilian.com. Retrieved on 2012-08-23.
^ Johnson, C., Anderson, S., Dallimore, J., Winser, S., & Warrell, D. A. (2008). Oxford handbook of expedition and wilderness medicine. OUP Oxford.
^ Da Silveira, R., Magnusson, W. E., & Campos, Z. (1997). Monitoring the distribution, abundance and breeding areas of Caiman crocodilus crocodilus and Melanosuchus niger in the Anavilhanas Archipelago, Central Amazonia, Brazil. Journal of Herpetology, 514-520.
^ Barker, G. M. (Ed.). (2004). Natural enemies of terrestrial molluscs. CABI.
^ Junk, W. J., & da Silva, V. M. F. (1997). Mammals, reptiles and amphibians. In The Central Amazon Floodplain (pp. 409-417). Springer, Berlin, Heidelberg.

The first page is a skull model selling page having nothing to say about its maximum mass or length; the second source is a suspended account page with blank information; the third citation of an Oxford handout has nothing to say about the 1100kg either.

On the second part of this paragraph concerning with scientific papers supporting possibilities of those unconfirmed reports, I found nothing relevant to such a context online. I highly suspect these sources have been twisted in meaning or exaggerated. Links to these sources would be appreciated.

RoyalRover (talk) 17:44, 17 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Further, I failed to verify any of these three sources claiming this species to be the largest of its group:

First source

Second source

Third source

Please provide verifiable sources to directly support its rank in size. RoyalRover (talk) 17:02, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Same can be said about the alligator. The 1,000 kg individual is not verified as well. The maximum should be 626 kg then.

And fir the "1,100 kg" caiman, please go to page 545 of the oxford site. If you are unable to access, then search on google books or scholar, other than that I can't say much. Adpr99 (talk) 20:57, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On average, both species are identical. And the American alligator is well studied, hence more reliable records. But, they rarely exceed 500 kg. As for black caiman, the remote location makes it dificult to conduct field study, but it has been, repeatedly mentioned in various books and online encyclopedias that it can reach almost 5 metres long. At 5 metres long, it will be heavier than the alligator. Adpr99 (talk) 20:55, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Largest Member Of The Alligatoridae?

Small error here, but the article claims the Black Caiman is the largest species of the aforementioned family. However this family includes extinct species such as Purussaurus, which is noticeably larger in every metric than the Black Caiman.

The wording should probably be changed to "It is the largest species of the extant members of the Alligatoridae family." or something similar. It's a minor but important distinction. 2A00:23C7:3D82:E901:8CBB:3C66:B358:22D5 (talk) 15:10, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I updated it. (You can, too, you know.) Cougroyalty (talk) 15:22, 10 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm aware, but I'm not confident enough in my technical skills to touch the pages honestly. 2A00:23C7:3D82:E901:482D:A531:436A:C752 (talk) 03:23, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[dinosaurcorporation1-1] Black Caiman, Black Caiman Skull. Dinosaurcorporation.com. Retrieved on 2012-08-23.

[Crocodilian-2] Crocodilian Species – Black Caiman (Melanosuchus niger). Crocodilian.com. Retrieved on 2012-08-23.

[3] Johnson, C., Anderson, S., Dallimore, J., Winser, S., & Warrell, D. A. (2008). Oxford handbook of expedition and wilderness medicine. OUP Oxford.

[4] Da Silveira, R., Magnusson, W. E., & Campos, Z. (1997). Monitoring the distribution, abundance and breeding areas of Caiman crocodilus crocodilus and Melanosuchus niger in the Anavilhanas Archipelago, Central Amazonia, Brazil. Journal of Herpetology, 514-520.

[5] Barker, G. M. (Ed.). (2004). Natural enemies of terrestrial molluscs. CABI.

[6] Junk, W. J., & da Silva, V. M. F. (1997). Mammals, reptiles and amphibians. In The Central Amazon Floodplain (pp. 409-417). Springer, Berlin, Heidelberg.

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