Talk:Black British people/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

contextulisation

the African and Asian guests at a pub dinner given by the African and Asian Society found themselves seperated from other guests by a screen placed in the room

so, cordless lary proposed i put this here for a discussion of where to contextualised this information — Preceding unsigned comment added by Menacinghat (talk • contribs) 23:21, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

References

Just inserting that example into the article isn't helpful, in my view. It needs more context. Do we have sources that establish that this was typical of the time, for example? Why are we picking this example rather than others? Cordless Larry (talk) 13:07, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

nb edit conflict

I'm not sure what point is being made, implicitly that there was prejudice against/distaste of these people, of which this is an example. It isn't even clear who was segregated, the society members from the general clients of the pub that night or the white and non-white society members from each other. If the point is that there was prejudice, I would have thought a better, more general statement would be clearer covering something broader than this incident. Pincrete (talk) 13:15, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Film reel

Agreed. I feel the same about this. Why are we singling out this one film reel to open a section with? Cordless Larry (talk) 17:50, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

I've removed the material about the film reel. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:02, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Just a thought, but if the film is in the public domain, would a captioned 'still' work as an image? as suggested here "would this be better as an image if poss?". Pincrete (talk) 22:04, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Yep, that might make more sense - using it to illustrate the article. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:13, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Revision by 105.112.16.252

What are these sources? @105.112.16.252  ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by I Am Chaos (talk • contribs) 14:17, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

photos

some captions have full stops others do not — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.153.5.155 (talk) 07:38, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Add that fact

http://web.archive.org/web/20181023134143/https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/07/first-modern-britons-dark-black-skin-cheddar-man-dna-analysis-reveals — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2149:8463:B400:5892:2810:DCF0:79FE (talk) 13:45, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Africans born in Britain do not consider themselves "Black British"

Since when has Africans born in Britain considered themselves "Black British" or ever used that term to describe themselves? 81.141.15.52 (talk) 19:50, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

for as long as their skins been black — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamesthefrank (talk • contribs) 09:18, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 24 June 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is consensus against this requested move. (closed by non-admin page mover) qedk (t 桜 c) 15:20, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

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Black British → Black Britons – Per African Americans. Unreal7 (talk) 16:25, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Oppose. The usual and better understood term is Black British. ngram Limiting to British English gives similar results. Certes (talk) 18:14, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Oppose. Use the common name. Celia Homeford (talk) 12:43, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Oppose per common name. Rreagan007 (talk) 16:22, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Oppose –Black British is a much better term.Leutha (talk) 06:38, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Oppose Black British is generally more common. Barca (talk) 14:16, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

I remove the Middle Age part

Mythological matter cannot be used as a proof for an hypothetical presence of black people in Britain — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:a03f:5018:7100:d930:9625:990e:7257 (talk • contribs) 02:18, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 4 December 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved (pending technical request). (non-admin closure)​ — Newslinger talk 17:06, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

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Black British → Black British people – The phrase Black British could be read as a compound adjective, whereas we generally use nouns for page titles. Black British people matches the lead sentence, and is more consistent with various other pages listed at Template:African diaspora, such as Afro-Caribbean people, Afro-Dutch people, Afro-Portuguese people, Black Scottish people, and British African-Caribbean people, as well as plain old British people. See also recent discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject African diaspora. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 13:55, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

• Support per British people. Dekimasuよ! 14:14, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Only African or Caribbean?

No black Americans, or black Canadians, or black South Americans have ever become British citizens? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.253 (talk) 23:07, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

These are the dominant places of origin for black people in the UK, based on where the colonies were. There are excellent British people from the communities you have mentioned however, for example Trent Alexander-Arnold (African American), Lennox Lewis (Afro-Canadian) and Seal (musician) (Afro-Brazilian). To add information about those communities would be a welcome addition, though the sources referring to them will be in shorter supply than those for Africans and Afro-Caribbeans. Wallachia Wallonia (talk) 21:27, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Rugby + other sports

I notice no mention of rugby in the sports section, but you've got Jeremy Guscott for Union - who seems like a shoe in for a mention given the amount of time he has spent on TV on top of his career as a sportsman - and if you go back a bit further in history you've got Roy Francis (rugby) who was the first black british coach - Jimmy Peters (rugby) the first (and last until 1988) black England player, and there are stacks of others who are bound to be influential. Probably a bunch of other sports that have significant diversity which shouldn't be left out because they are not football EdwardLane (talk) 13:02, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

POV Query

In the media section, the statement 'Keep The Faith’s editorial contributors are some of the most powerful and influential movers and shakers, and successful entrepreneurs within BME communities'. I recommend this is either verified from a neutral source, or deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Genericxz (talk • contribs) 13:35, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Eliza Junor

I have just created the article Eliza Junor, having been fascinated to read about her in today's news. As I have never contributed on Black British issues before, I would appreciate it if those of you who have more specialized knowledge would cast your eye over it. Thanks. --Doric Loon (talk) 13:05, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Somali heritage

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Another editor, @BurudaKidd:, has recently made edits to various articles, including this one and the one on Mo Farah, to remove any mention of Somali-heritage people from the "Black British" article and category, with the edit summary; "According to census Somalis aren’t actually considered Black British they are actually considered British Arab believe it or not." That raises a number of points: 1 - is it true? 2 - is it relevant? 3 - is it uncontentious? - probably not, given that the editor themselves say "believe it or not". This needs further discussion, and a decision based on consensus if possible, as to whether, in Wikipedia (not the census), Somali-heritage British people should be considered as "Black British" or not. Once a decision is made, it should be applied across all the articles affected. Thoughts? Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:47, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

The census relies on people classifying themselves, so Somalis could identify as Black, Arab... white - whatever they see fit. There isn't a Somali tick-box (there is an Arab one), but people can write in Somali as an "other" option. If you look here, lots of people write Somali in under the Black heading. I don't think there's any way to know how many Somalis tick the Arab box. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:09, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

When we're talking about biography articles, surely a better approach would be to categorise them according to what reliable sources say about the individual? If Mo Farah is described in reliable sources as Black British, then he belongs in that category. See WP:CATEGRS. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:15, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

@ProudLondoner: claims that Somalis are Black British according to census according to this https://history.blog.gov.uk/2019/03/07/50-years-of-collecting-ethnicity-data/ BurudaKidd (talk) 09:09, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Incidentally, I thought this discussion was familiar, and now I remember why: it was discussed extensively at Talk:Somalis in the United Kingdom/Archive 3#Detailed census ethnicity data. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:26, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

There are a number of issues here. Do we know how notable Somali-heritage people identify themselves? For example, do we know whether Mo Farah identifies himself as Black British, or Arab British - or something else? Also, does Wikipedia need to go along with the census categories? If notable people are identified in reliable sources as Black British, does the census category matter? Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:49, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

I think that Farah's own identification should override everything else, if it's known. The census is maybe a useful guide for population groups but not so much for individuals - unless we somehow know how the individual answered the census, which seems unlikely for living people. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:53, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it should. The problem here is that one editor has been making the assumption that, because a person can, if they so choose, identify in the census as something other than "Black British", that means they should not be categorized as "Black British" here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:00, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

I am literally using the census to identify Somali people as Black British (also during Black History Month , Mo Farah is celebrated as a Black British man). Somali people are Black according to the census, it's really simple ProudLondoner — Preceding undated comment added 10:22, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

So what do most Somalis identity as in census? BurudaKidd (talk) 11:53, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

From my own personal experience, Black British, when I apply for grants on behalf of the local Somali community, they ask me to tick Black British, when I deal with the police, Black British. furthermore the census sees Somali as Black British, here's another link https://www.bristol.gov.uk/documents/20182/33107/Equality+Profile+Somalis+2014.pdf/99f13ec0-da03-4928-9971-77246a812b17 , also as the gentleman above said The problem here is that one editor has been making the assumption that, because a person can, if they so choose, identify in the census as something other than "Black British", that means they should not be categorized as "Black British" here. ProudLondoner — Preceding undated comment added 12:14, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

From Tower Hamlets: "When responding to the ethnicity question, it is likely that most Somali residents ticked either the Black African boxor the Black Other box". Cordless Larry (talk) 12:24, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Fine do what you want this discussion is over BurudaKidd (talk) 09:01, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Can I clear this discussion now? BurudaKidd (talk) 09:02, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Archived per WP:CLOSE, but not deleted - for future reference. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:11, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

AWARDS AND ACHIEVEMENTS SECTION

I think we should create an awards section- see for instance: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/British_Asian#Awards_and_achievements

Could include things such as MOBOs, and UK Black Powerlists etc

ROC7 (talk) 09:43, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Social issues crime etc

Surely this needs a section on social problems is needed as it's present on various other ethnic groups since the user ROC7 has been trying to add more to social issues of British Asians maybe we can expand on the Social issues here first since a section doesn't even exist? 90tillinfinitydue (talk) 07:35, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Black British is perhaps too broad an article to cover social issues in, given that it includes people from very different background. Social issues are covered at British African-Caribbean people#Social and political issues, which seems a more appropriate location to me. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:44, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Prostitution

If there are no objections, i'd like to remove the section on prostitution. Simply creating that section for 1 person only (who, in the description doesn't even sound black) isn't warranted. Don't need any more irrelevant negativity attributed to this group. Koppite1 (talk) 11:06, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

I think the section should be kept as there isn't enough information on black women on this page. Mixed race people such as Barrack Obama are still considered black.--Menacinghat (talk) 00:33, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Koppite1 that the quote is of little value in an encyclopedia article. It places undue emphasis on a single example, without setting it in context. If there is noteworthy (and reliably sourced) information about the wider context, it could be mentioned. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:26, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Reginald Scot associated black people with witchcraft?

The article claims that Reginald Scot associated black people with witchcraft in his book Discoverie of Witchcraft, but this is misleading since the author's main argument is that witchcraft doesn't exist. The text quoted in support of this claim omits the beginning of the sentence, "But in our childhood our mothers maids have so terrified us with an ouglie divell having hornes on his head..." It's quite clear that in the context of the entire sentence (and paragraph) that the author is mocking the boogeyman stories that adults tell to children, not associating black people with witchcraft as this article claims. He mentions black people in other parts of the book, and it's usually merely reported what other people have claimed about them, that the devil has black skin or appears in the form of a "blacke moore". He also mentions a claim made by a "foreign" author that apparitions of damned souls (ghosts) can take the form of black people. But this is a skeptic book, and it's pretty obvious that the author doesn't believe any of this stuff and is trying to either refute or mock people who believe the stuff he describes. At best, a more accurate claim would be that Reginald Scot reported that some people in contemporary Europe associated black skin with the devil or with ghosts. VainHouthery (talk) 05:04, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

non-European

"The term black has historically had a number of applications as a racial and political label and may be used in a wider sociopolitical context to encompass a broader range of non-European ethnic minority populations in Britain." English not being my native language, I still doubt anyone would ever call an Asian person "black". Can you give an example? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.204.88.224 (talk) 12:29, 16 May 2023 (UTC)