Talk:Bierut Decrees

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The article contains serious errors

Either the article has been translated from German Wikipedia or it has been translated into German, an interesting question.
German POV, German references.
The only British reference is against this article.
No Polish reference. Are the POles still racially lower?
Quoted laws should be moved to Wikisources.
Xx236 (talk) 08:42, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. It is indeed the case that this article started out as a translation from the German equivalent. That's what it says in the edit history page. The subject is an important one and there is no reason to conceal it from people who only want to - or only are able to - read in English.

As far as I can tell, there is not yet an entry on the subject in Polish wikipedia. Maybe someone will start one before too much longer. Maybe the information is already in Polish wikipedia but in an article with a different name and focus, so difficult to locate for those of us - includes me - who never got beyond basic tourist Polish. BUT if you, or if someone else reading this who understands Polish reasonably well are/is able to add more Polish perspective using Polish language sources, that would be the best possible answer to the issues you raise. I learned most of "my" history - at least the formal bits - in England, and although I had friends who had lived in Poland, they were by definition people who had left the country either because of the German interventions under Hitler or because of Russian interventions under Stalin. Inevitably, you should not expect to get a very full picture of what happened in a country simply by knowing people who left it, especially where they left under horrible circumstances. So I for one would welcome Polish perspective on this subject being incorporated by anyone who is able and willing to add it.

Regards Charles01 (talk) 09:09, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Allow me to summarise your point - there exists a German article so we translate it without any verification and we obtain a Wikipedia article. No, you should have used reliable sources rather than translating German nationalistic propaganda.

There is no Polish Wikipedia article, because the alleged Bierut decrees was a series of different laws, only one of them a Bierut decree. One apple and five oranges aren't apples.Xx236 (talk) 09:36, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If you think it needs improving, then I agree. Most wikipedia articles need improving. Wikipedia is a work in progress

If you think it needs improving, please improve it. It will be much better for your blood pressure than sniping angrily on a talk page, and you look as though you have the insights and knowledge to do a good job. Share the benefit of your knowledge with the readers.

Why not start by telling us, from a Polish perspective, what you understand by "a Bierut decree" (singular)?

But in some other languages the Bierut Decrees are generally referred to in the plural, and if this entry can highlight the different perspectives according to the different ways history is taught and remembered in different countries, then that is something that those readers still interested in learning new stuff may feel they need to understand better.

Best wishes Charles01 (talk) 10:50, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

According to the German Wikipedia there were two Decrees:

The 8 March 1946 Decree was decided by the Government and confirmed/ratified by the presidium of State National Council, Bierut not mentioned.
The same the 13 September 1946.

Summarising - no Bierut Decree at all.

You are right, that some nations accept German/Soviet POVs regarding Central/Eastern Europe and spread Nazi/Soviet/nationalistic propaganda.Xx236 (talk) 11:21, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

According to Bolesław Bierut: he was President of the Republic of Poland In office 5 February 1947 – 21 November 1952, when the subject of German people in Poland was over. My opinion is that Germans extrapolate their knowledge of Czechoslovakia to Poland, finally they are all Slavs so who cares. But Czechoslovakia was an independent country and Benes was the president. Poland was under Soviet occupation and Bierut was a Soviet governor who pretended to be a politician.Xx236 (talk) 11:24, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The neutrality claims are fascinating, particularly since they try to label this as German nationalist propaganda. The article in its current from, at least, it a blatant attempt to trivialize the process by which the people living in massive swaths of present-day Poland were ethnically cleansed, their possessions and property seized, 700+ years of history erased and replaced with Poles from elsewhere. This is consistent with articles that touch upon this subject across Wikipedia. There is a small group of Polish nationalist wikipedia editors who seem to have made it their mission to present their twist on history across this site. I get that it is deeply disconcerting to think of your country as build on that kind of foundation. For better or worse, that doesn't change the truth. The Polish revisionism and revanchism in this article and across Wikipedia seems consistent with the nationalist and authoritarian tendencies that have taken hold over present-day Poland, a place where fundamental pillars of democracy such as an independent judiciary have now been eliminated. The article in its present form does no service to truth or history and might as well be deleted.

Written by 173.162.6.134

It's nice to ignore what Germans did in Poland. History started in May 1945 when cruel Poles expelled peaceful Germans, says 173.162.6.134 Xx236 (talk) 12:32, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

German names of Polish laws, "Altpolen"

Polish laws should be named in Polish or in English but never German. I have replaced the German names with links to the laws.
"Altpolen" is a German word which mean "Old Poland". This is an English Wikipedia so I'm not sure if German words deserve to be used here.Xx236 (talk) 11:13, 31 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative history..

The article states that ″Most of the territory transferred to Poland from the prewar Germany in 1945 came from areas that had been part of the historic state of Prussia and subsequently of Germany since the partitions of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. This was the case with most of Pomerania, Silesia and the eastern part of Brandenburg, including major cities in postwar Poland such as Szczecin/Stettin and Wrocław/Breslau.″ – What is the connection of this areas with the Partition of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth..? Sounds like they didn't belong to it before the Partition, and this is wrong.. --Jonny84 (talk) 19:04, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The text is unprecise, I have added some of them before since the partitions.

German name of the page

This is an English language Wikipedia. A literary translation of a German nationalistic name isn't English but still German nationalistic translated into English. The only English language source contains a summary of a German statement (by Stoiber)) made by a Berlin correspondent.Xx236 (talk) 07:01, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

TThere exists Bierut Decree so the name Bierut Decrees rather misinforms.Xx236 (talk) 07:14, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am not happy with the name, but Polish Wikipedia doesn't have a name for this, and the current name is used in some English sources at least. Feel free to suggest alternatives and we can consider reaming this once we have other options. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:31, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is an English Wikipedia.

This is an example of Western postcolonailism. People who destroied pre-war Poland now write their version of history of Poland. Xx236 (talk) 06:24, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Even German Wikipedia supports me "„Bierut-Dekrete“ ist eine von Vertretern der deutschen Vertriebenenverbände geprägte Bezeichnung für die von der polnischen Regierung 1945 und 1946 erlassenen Dekrete, Verordnungen und Gesetze, die Eigentums- und bürgerliche Rechte der aus Ostpreußen, Pommern, Schlesien und Ost-Brandenburg vertriebenen Deutschen sowie der Volksdeutschen aus dem Gebiet Polens in den Grenzen vor dem 1. September 1939 aufgehoben haben. " Xx236 (talk) 06:26, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The subject belongs to Nationalization in Poland, so the two page should be integrated. This page is Germano-centric. Xx236 (talk) 07:43, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any argument against the title... In contrast it's even used as title in German Wikipedia.. Which supports to keep it. I don't see an argument, what makes this title "nationalistic"... I don't see any sources for other common used titles.. --Jonny84 (talk) 21:46, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest a descriptive title, Nationalization of German-owned assets in Poland and add an explanation of the term "Bierut Decrees" taken from de:WP. Any other variants? Staszek Lem (talk) 17:01, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK Xx236 (talk) 10:40, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is an autopublication acceptable?

Georg Friebe is probably a German nationalistic activist. Xx236 (talk) 07:47, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ref removed. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:52, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 14 August 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Arguments for page move are not oriented in Wikipedia policy. All arguments to move a page should be based on Wikipedia policies and guidelines, rather than our own opinion of the subject matter at hand. Until a reasoned argument is given, I am closing this page move request as not moved. A future RM can be opened if a clear, policy based consensus can be reached. That does not exist at this time. (closed by non-admin page mover) Steven Crossin ^{Help resolve disputes!} 12:49, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bierut Decrees → Nationalization of German-owned assets in Poland – Bierut decrees is a German nationalistic name based on false analogy with Czechoslovakia Xx236 (talk) 08:44, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Staszek Lem (talk) 17:07, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Argument is POV by Xx236 himself.. --Jonny84 (talk) 21:46, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment What do the English-language sources show? If Bierut Decrees appear there often (same like Beneš Decrees), then I have to Oppose.--Darwinek (talk) 23:04, 15 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If English sources accept the existence of Poland , it exists. But the day they cancel Poland, Poland will be cancelled.Xx236 (talk) 09:08, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's your task to source the name of the page. This page has been translated form nationalistic German. The only English language source comes from Berlin and summarizes opinions of Stoiber, already forgotten German politician. Do you describe U.K. or U.S. law using Berlin comments only? Germany doesn't like U.S. death penalty, lets rewrite some page on the basis of German opinions.

The article says "the so-called Bierut decrees", so this page may be called "So-called Bierut decrees", not "Bierut Decrees". It's something different.Xx236 (talk) 09:10, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How a false analogy is POV? Anyone may verify, that the laws aren't "Bierut Decrees". Xx236 (talk) 09:19, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Jonny84 is German. Your opinion is POV.Xx236 (talk) 09:21, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have verified 13 September 1946 decree. It was signed by several people and it's not valid any more. Laws are laws, not decrees. Xx236 (talk) 09:27, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please remeber that there exist the Bierut Decree, so some authors call the decree decrees. http://politicalcritique.org/cee/poland/2017/poland-for-beginners-reprivatization/ Xx236 (talk) 09:42, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

So ignorance and German nationalism are Wikipedia policies. No, thank you. The name of this page is unsourced, it should be perhaps "So-called Bierut decrees".Xx236 (talk) 07:09, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]