Talk:Bible prophecy/Archive 3

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Ezekiel, Nebuchadnezzar and Amasis

It is a historical fact that Nebuchadnezzar failed to conquer Egypt, and it is a historical fact that Amasis II (the pharaoh who stopped him) conquered Cyprus (and held it until 545 BC, long after Nebuchadnezzar's death). Ezekiel's writings end with the end of the siege of Tyre in 573 BC. I will revert and delete the ad-hominem attempt to discredit Herodotus: there are cases where Herododus included "traveller's tales" about strange beasts in far-off lands, but the claim of his "inaccuracy" is selectively taken from a source[1] that actually says:

"Herodotus was not the first historian, but he was the first to make investigation the key to history. The word "history" comes from a Greek word which means "inquiry" or "investigation." He wanted to find what actually happened, so he traveled extensively in the Eastern Mediterranean, including visits to Egypt and Persia. He talked to many people, including people who actually witnessed the events he wrote about. While people today might criticize him for his tendency to include inaccurate and often implausible information, he nevertheless established the notion that history must begin with research."

He went there. He researched. He talked to those who had direct knowledge. And, of course, he isn't the only source of information on this period: whereas NO historical source has been provided which contradicts this account. Egypt did not fall until the Persians invaded it. I will revert. --Robert Stevens (talk) 07:23, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

The empires added ruled over Egypt, those empires weren't ruled by Egypt.

Furthermore, it is perfectly reasonable to include criticism about a historian's accuracy if that historian is going to be quoted.

The Ezekiel 29:15 prophecy talks about a future conditions.

"WILL make Egypt so weak that it will never rule again over other nations." The "will never rule again over nations" start at a point in the future, not when the prophecy is made.

All opinions has also been removed.Back2back2back (talk) 21:33, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I am going to agree with Back2back here. On the first part, Egypt would seem to just be a vassal in the larger Arab empire rather the head of the empire, but this is subjective. In order to keep the article as objective as possible, we better leave that out lest we be forced to tell the entire history of Egypt on this page.

In this case the ad-hominem statement is valid since the credibility of the fact depends on the credibility of the individual unlike arguments on viewpoint where the logic of the individual is the only thing that matters.

The Ezekiel 29:15 should be allowed to stand alone without the Nebuchadnezzar prophecy below, since 17-21 were added later. The first prophecy is made in 587 or 586 BC, while the second was supposedly made in 570 BC. An interesting aspect is that the failed prophecies seemed to have been added by another author later on. If you look up the word "year" in Ezekiel, you will find that Ezekiel dated his entries in the same format and the order he received them. Ezekiel: In the [a] thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day In the seventh year, in the fifth month on the tenth day In the ninth year, in the tenth month on the tenth day

In the Tyre passage: In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month

More interesting...the Egypt prophecy: In the twenty-seventh year, in the first month on the first day

Ezekiel received visions on the fifth and tenth of the month but not in these cases apparently. Also, what are the chances of him receiving a vision on the anniversary of the 597 BC exile of the elites unless there was a specific reason for that day? Extremely low. Also, the two questionable passages are dated to the first on the month. Of course this can't be included, because until I find a source from an expert who has done such an analysis (if it has been done...which is probably the case), it is original research, but it reinforces the point that could be made by itself that the tenth year prophecy should be included on its own. --Jorfer (talk) 23:28, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I removed the reference to the Phoenician name since there were no other references to it, and merged the two quotes.Back2back2back (talk) 22:53, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The Egyptian Mamluk dynasties ruled from Egypt, and they appear to have become independent from external control for a while. Probably not the best example, so I don't mind that one being left out: it isn't clear-cut, either way. But we should likewise leave out the claim that Egypt has not ruled over other nations. The version provided by Back2back2back, "...Egypt has not ruled over other nations since Ezekiel's time" is of course blatantly false, because Egypt has definitely ruled over Cyprus since Ezekiel's time.

As for Herodotus: nothing we know about him would lead us to believe that he would conceal the conquest and depopulation of Egypt by Nebuchadrezzar, or fabricate an alternative timeline. Also, historians do have independent confirmation of the rule of Amasis, plus Babylonian records which fail to mention this alleged event: whereas there is nothing at all that contradicts this historical account. Nebuchadrezzar's failure to conquer and depopulate Egypt is as much a "historical fact" as anything else that happened (or, in this case, failed to happen) in antiquity. This is a prophecy failure, pure and simple. IIRC, even the Bible itself does not claim that Nebuchadrezzar actually conquered and depopulated Egypt (though I've seen some apologists get confused by references to his victory over an earlier Pharaoh at the Battle of Carchemish: this was before the attack on Tyre, and wasn't an invasion of Egypt itself). Hence, adding criticism of Herodotus is unwarranted and superfluous (do we need to go through all of Wikipedia and add this to everything from Herodotus? Of course not: so why do it here?). As I mentioned before, the goofs attributed to Herodotus involve hearsay he passed on, "traveller's tales" from far-off lands (e.g. giant camel-eating ants in India) or the size of some armies in great battles: not the relatively recent political history of places he actually visited and researched. At worst, the "20,000 cities" (presumably including towns and villages) might be suspect: we could simply drop that, as it's not especially relevant.

As for the uncertainty regarding authorship: perhaps that should be mentioned (as the fact that there is uncertainty does not seem controversial, though details are sadly lacking at Book of Ezekiel), with its possible implications regarding Cyprus. However, detaching the start of the prophecy from any specific time makes it a banal remark rather than a prophecy, as no nation lasts forever: eventually every nation becomes incapable of conquering its neighbours (at some unspecified time in the future, the United States will become incapable of conquering other lands: lo, I have prophesied). --Robert Stevens (talk) 11:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

You misworded the Egypt prophecy. It doesn't say that "Egypt will never rule over other nations".

Furthermore, it is perfectly reasonable to include OBJECTIVE CRITICISM of a historian if that historian is going to be quoted.

Furthermore, if Alexander the Great is not included in the Tyre prophecy, readers can figure that out for themselves. The prophecy said that Tyre would be destroyed, if someone destroys it, why shouldn't it be included? Furthermore, it doesn't matter that alexander wasn't mentioned, prophecies does not have to mention every little fact.Back2back2back (talk) 12:01, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Correction: the prophecy said that Nebuchadnezzar would destroy Tyre. At least, that's how most people read it: the whole thing is all about the upcoming attack on Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar, not some distant event centuries later that Ezekiel had no reason to care about. And, of course, Alexander didn't fulfil the prophecy either (which was all about Tyre's permanent, never-to-be-rebuilt destruction): so, why mention him at all? The fact that some apologists have included him, despite his failure to fulfil the prophecy, is the only reason to mention him at all: so, let's explain why he's here, in the article. Why on Earth not? What are you afraid of?

As for Herodotus: I have deleted the only remotely contentious aspect of the Herodotus quote (20,000 cities), so there's no need to put the caveat in. Ironically, you have put it back! Why re-include controversial material just so that you can complain about it?

And stop deleting historical information about Cyprus! The reader is entitled to know that 545 BC is long after Ezekiel's time (and also entitled to know which nation Egypt ruled over). Sure, let's put a fuller quote in, but we probably should also explain where in the book this prophecy is made: and, in the current version of the book, it plainly belongs with the rest of the failed prophecy regarding Nebby's conquest and depopulation. And why delete the fact that the authorship is in doubt? This is part of a key argument by those apologists who wish to divorce this part of the prophecy from the rest of it! --Robert Stevens (talk) 13:07, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

The prophecy never says that Nebuchanezzar would be the one to destroy the city. Herodotus has been known to be inaccurate, that's why it's included.

Furthermore, this article is supposed to be objective.

Language like "and, in the current version of the book, it plainly belongs with the rest of the failed prophecy regarding Nebby's conquest and depopulation." is not objective.Back2back2back (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Herodotus is known to be accurate on this occasion (certainly with regard to the continued existence of Egypt under Amasis) and has a good reputation for accuracy overall. If you insist, I will quote your own source in support of that (though a digression into the accuracy of Herodotus is off-topic for this article, your intransigence leaves me no choice). And what's this garbage about my language being "not objective", based on something I never said in the article itself?

Meanwhile you are continuing to delete relevant historical facts (I note that Cyprus has been erased again), and the notable, relevant and sourced explanation for the inclusion of Alexander, so I really have no choice but to revert that again. --Robert Stevens (talk) 16:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

The article is supposed to be objective. There should be no mention of whether prophecies failed or succeeded except giving historical facts.

The Tyre prophecy never said that Tyre would be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, but did say that it was going to be destroyed. If Alexander destroyed the city, why shouldn't he be included? Why not let readers draw their own conclusions? Wanting to include skeptics' opinion is no reason to write something.

You also deleted information about Egypt never ruling over any nations since 545 BC.

Please don't delete historical facts that are relevant to the prophecy without giving any explanations.

And we don't need to quote the entire chapter of Ezekiel 29 since the prophecy can be easily summarized. Furthermore, the readers can easily find the context if they wish to read the passage.

Moreover, the fact that someone disagrees with the authorship should not be included. That can be easily looked up on other wikipedia pages. Otherwise, the article would get too long. This article isn't here to inform the reader about apologetic or skeptical opinions or secular or Christian historians believe about the authorship and date of each book.

This is an objective article, and collaboration will not work if everyone wanted their opinion reflected in the article.Back2back2back (talk) 22:00, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

No, you are mistaken. From WP:NPOV: "Each Wikipedia article and other content must be written from a neutral point of view, by representing all significant views on each topic fairly, proportionately, and without bias."

Also read "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors."

And more: "The neutral point of view is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject: it neither endorses nor discourages viewpoints. As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. The elimination of article content cannot be justified under this policy on the grounds that it is "POV"."

We are required to present the skeptical view (alongside the other views, of course). Failure to do so is a blatant violation of NPOV. Furthermore, the rest of the article does express alternative views: so this part should not be exempt. --Robert Stevens (talk) 11:12, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

There is no controversy as to matters of fact. The apologetic and skeptical viewpoints are matters of interpretation of facts. Hence they should not be included.

The Ptolemaic Empire ruled OVER Egypt, and was the result of Alexander the Great dividing his empire. The Ptolemaics were Macedonian.

Furthermore, you haven't given any reason for most of your reverts.Back2back2back (talk) 12:47, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy specificaly says they MUST be included. Hence, I must revert (and report you if you continue, for repeated violation of policy). And the Ptolemies became Egyptian: pharaohs of a fully idependent Egypt. Cleopatra, for instance, was "Egyptian"... not "Macedonian"! Reverting. --Robert Stevens (talk) 13:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

There is no dispute as to matters of fact. Wikipedia never says you must include every opinion as to interpretation of the facts.

"For the next two-and-a-half centuries, the Ptolemaic dynasty of the Greeks would successfully rule Egypt, mingling Hellenic traditions with the mighty legacy of the Pharaohs.

It was under the Ptolemaic Dynasty that Alexandria truly became the cultural and economic center of the ancient world. Egypt was ruled from Alexandria by Ptolemy's descendants until the death of Cleopatra VII in 30 BC."

http://www.touregypt.net/alexhis1.htm

Furthermore, you have deleted historical facts without giving any reasons at all and have also not given any reasons for most of your reverts.Back2back2back (talk) 13:26, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Exactly the same thing happened in England after William the Conqueror: England became governed by a French-speaking elite, and French remained the language of the aristocracy for centuries afterward. But the nation was still England, not France (indeed, it actually fought wars against France). If that region wasn't ruled by Egypt, then what nation DID rule it? Certainly not Greece!

As for the rest: as I pointed out before, Wikipedia's NPOV policy is non-negotiable (WP:NPOV says it's non-negotiable) and cannot be used to justify the deletion of rival notable opinions (WP:NPOV says it can't). Pretty much the only possible justification for removal of all mention of any given view is WP:UNDUE, if the view is an extreme minority/fringe one with no significant support.

Meanwhile I note that in your "objective" approach, even though you have finally started to mention Cyprus, you have deleted the fact that Amasis II (the same Pharaoh who drove off Nebuchadrezzar) conquered Cyprus, leaving the misleading impression that Egypt already controlled Cyprus in Ezekiel's time. And you are still stating your opinion that Egypt never again ruled over other nations, based on your opinion that Ptolemaic Egypt doesn't count (despite it being a fully independent nation at this time, not a vassal of anyone else). You are continuing to delete the actual quoted section of the Book of Ezekiel itself. You have also re-introduced the Philip Myers quote (in the form of a declaration of fact referring to the present, a blatant piece of POV-pushing) while concealing the fact that it was written over a century ago and cannot be applied to the sprawling city that is modern Tyre.

I think the only possible way forward here is a "let's lay everything on the table" one. Every notable view is described, and every relevant historical fact (relevant to ANY view, not just one) is provided.

With regard to Tyre, here are the views that we must include (I've encountered all of these in discussions on this topic):

1. Nebuchadrezzar fulfilled the prophecy, in a "metaphorical sense", when Tyre's royal family went into exile.

2. Nebuchadrezzar fulfilled the prophecy "on the mainland", either by the destruction of the mainland settlements, or via the (historically false) belief that the city Nebuchadrezzar beseiged for 13 years was ON the mainland.

3. Alexander fulfilled the prophecy (somehow: the rebuilding and ongoing survival of Tyre is a problem for this view, but we should nevertheless present it).

4. The prophecy was never fulfilled: either because it failed outright, or because it was "conditional", or because Ezekiel got carried away and exaggerated the destruction destined for Tyre.

5. The prophecy hasn't yet been fulfilled.

With regard to the Egypt prophecies, we quote Ezekiel and provide ALL relevant historical facts. We mention any ambiguities and differences in interpretation by those with various opinions, if this is relevant to the prophecies. Nebby's actual failure to conquer Egypt as described is a problem for some views, but... so what? Not our problem (though, if some apologists try to rewrite history to get around this, WP:FRINGE applies).

Sourcing will be an issue, as many available sources will not meet WP:RS: however, somewhat dubious sources can still be used for citing the existence of their own opinions (as per WP:Questionable sources), but not for supporting declarations of fact.

As far as I can see, I have now incorporated ALL of your material in this edit ([2]): plus my own, of course. I suggest you discuss any major changes here, without another blanket revert of everything I've added! --Robert Stevens (talk) 20:48, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Egypt was under foreign control under the Ptolemaic dynasty. During that era, Egypt was ruled by the macedonian Royal family. The capital of the empire, Alexandria was Greek. The ruling class was Greek. Greek even became the official language. The claim that Egypt ruled over nations when Egypt itself was under greek control is absurd. Do you have any sources which say that directly states that Egypt was not under foreign rule?

all these sources say that Egypt was under Greek rule

http://www.goegypt.org/aboutegy/history/10-greekrule.htm http://www.touregypt.net/alexhis1.htm http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/egypt/history/greeks.htm http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/papyrus/texts/rule.html

"They lived under Greek law, received a Greek education, were tried in Greek courts, and were citizens of Greek cities, just as they had been in Greece. The Egyptians were rarely admitted to the higher levels of Greek culture, in which most Egyptians were not in any case interested."

"Ptolemy I established the Greek colony of Ptolemais Hermiou to be its capital"

"Greeks were planted in colonies and garrisons or settled themselves in the villages throughout the country."

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/History/PtolemaicEgypt.html

The Egyptians were under Greek rule, there's no controversy whatsoever.

" During the Ptolemies era, a number of rebellions against foreign rule were suppressed. Consequently, the monuments were not spared devastation. In the same manner, the Romans plundered the city on stages, that city of great civilization and the centre of tourism. "

http://www.sis.gov.eg/En/Pub/magazin/spring1996/110202000000000002.htm

"The last native dynasty fell to the Persians in 343 BC. Later, Egypt was under the rule of Greeks, Romans and Byzantines, which resulted in almost two thousand years of foreign rule."

http://www.placesonline.com/africa/egypt/culture_and_geography.asp Back2back2back (talk) 21:46, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

So we minimize edit warring I have copied the Ezekiel section to this sandbox User:Jorfer/Sandbox so you can comment and edit on that page freely and discuss it without interrupting Wikipedia. It should make it easier than trying to come to a consensus on the main page.--Jorfer (talk) 00:17, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Back2back2back: Egypt was NOT under the rule of Greece or any other nation during the Ptolemaic period. They were under the rule of people who came from Greece. Just as the USA after independence was ruled by people who came from Britain (mostly) rather than the Native Americans, but was NOT under British rule. Egypt had become an INDEPENDENT nation, with a ruling class of foreign origin: just like the United States of America is today. --Robert Stevens (talk) 20:17, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The British ruled over other British. The ruling class ruled over their own nationals. One origin, one country, no foreign rule.

The Greeks ruled over native Egyptians. The ruling class ruled over citizens of other countries. Foreign rule.

Furthermore, you're ignoring all the sources which say Egypt was under foreign rule.

If the British ruled over the Native Americans, declared independence, set up a British capital city and British settlements, made English the official language, have British nationals live under British law, and dominated the ruling class and higher levels of society, the Native Americans would be under foreign control.Back2back2back (talk) 20:46, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's what happened to the Native Americans, and to the Egyptians: in that sense they WERE under "foreign control", that is correct. Byt they were not under the control of a foreign NATION. After independence, America became "America", not "part of Britain": therefore, when America came to rule over other lands after independence (California, Texas, Alaska, whatever) those lands were "American", not "British". Similarly, after winning their war of independence, Ptolemaic Egypt ruled other lands as "Egypt", not "Greece". --Robert Stevens (talk) 21:01, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Egypt won the war for independence? What are you talking about?

And you've ignored the differences between America and Ancient Egypt. In America, the ruling class ruled over its own people. There was no foreign rule.

The government was Greek. The ruling class was Greek. The capital was Greek. There were greek colonies, Greek was the official language. The fact that it was called "Egypt" doesn't change the fact that the Greeks ruled the country.

Furthermore, the kingdom wasn't even called Egypt; it was called the Ptolemaic Kingdom. And whichever nations ruled by the Kingdom would be under Greek control since the kingdom itself was under Greek control anyway.

Actually Alexander the Great's Greece was divided into several kingdoms, one of them being ptolemaic kingdom. The Ptolemaic Kingdom wasn't actually independent from Greece, it was one of several Greek kingdoms.

The argument that Egypt ruled over other nations simply because both Egypt and other nations was under Greek control is flawed on many levels.Back2back2back

I suggest moving the ezekiel discussion topics (29 and 30) to the sandbox.(talk) 22:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Egypt was part of an autonomous kingdom after Alexander. It was controlled by Greeks, but it was autonomous from Greece. Now we are arguing about whether this autonomous state could be considered Egypt. We could try doing it by nation of birth, but than California is ruled by Austria, and Kosovo is ruled by Serbians. You might say the government that the people support but than Myanmar is ruled by another country. If we do this by location than Peru is still ruled by the Incan empire. If we do this by culture as Back2back suggests than Egypt doesn't exist anymore and countries which adopt other countries practices can be called that country. The best way to define what constitutes Egypt is to tie location and culture together into influence. How much influence did the Nile River valley culture at the time have over the other "nations" of the autonomous region versus the "Greek" culture. I think this leans in favor of it being a separate Greek state as opposed to Egyptian state.

There is no problem with this discussion being here. The problem is continuous back and forth edit warring on the main page.--Jorfer (talk) 02:34, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

...Uh, Back2back2back, you appear to be contradicting yourself. You said "If the British ruled over the Native Americans, declared independence, set up a British capital city and British settlements, made English the official language, have British nationals live under British law, and dominated the ruling class and higher levels of society, the Native Americans would be under foreign control". But later you said "And you've ignored the differences between America and Ancient Egypt. In America, the ruling class ruled over its own people. There was no foreign rule."

In both America and Egypt, the "foreigners" did indeed rule over the native population, both before and after independence (Ptolemaic Egypt's war of independence was fought and won in 321 BC).

Of course, the analogy isn't perfect, because the Native Americans didn't have a single united nation before the Europeans took over. For the analogy to work, we'd have to imagine a Native American nation subjected to British rule, and we'd also have to imagine that after independence George Washington and his successors called themselves "Great Chief" rather than "President", and promoted and participated in Native American shamanism as the national religion (this is equivalent to what the Ptolemies did). Of course it wouldn't really be the same "America" as it had been under the "Great Chiefs" who ruled before the British arrived: but it wouldn't be "British" either. --Robert Stevens (talk) 16:43, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

You didn't really address the main points. First you said that Egypt won its war for independence. What war? Egypt was taken over by the Ptolemaic empire when the war started. I don't see how that is a war for independence.

You've also ignored the fact that Greece was divided into several parts, Ptolemaic Kingdom being one of them. Egypt actually became part of a foreign empire.

I don't see how I was contradicting myself when I said both foreign rule and foreign control.

In addition, the Ptolemaic Empire is one of the divided parts of Greece. The Ptoemaic Empire is a Greek Empire. You haven't made any arguments as to why Egypt should be considered as ruling over other nations.Back2back2back (talk) 19:47, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Egypt won its war of independence against the empire established by Alexander the Great. Alexander's successor was Perdiccas, ruling as regent in the name of Alexander's half-brother and unborn child (Alexander's wife was pregnant when Alexander died). When Ptolemy rebelled and declared independence, Perdiccas marched an army to Egypt but failed to take it. Ptolemy became Pharaoh Ptolemy I, sole and undisputed ruler of an independent Egypt, founder of a dynasty that ruled Egypt for 3 centuries (and conquered various other lands during that time: lands that Egypt had not inherited from Alexander's empire). --Robert Stevens (talk) 12:08, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

"The Ptolemaic Kingdom (Greek: Πτολεμαϊκό Βασίλειο) in and around Egypt began following Alexander the Great's conquest in 332 BC and ended with the death of Cleopatra VII and the Roman conquest in 30 BC. It was founded when Ptolemy I Soter declared himself Pharaoh of Egypt, creating a powerful Hellenistic state stretching from southern Syria to Cyrene and south to Nubia. Alexandria became the capital city and a center of Greek culture and trade. To gain recognition by the native Egyptian populace, they named themselves as the successors to the Pharaohs. The later Ptolemies took on Egyptian traditions by marrying their siblings, had themselves portrayed on public monuments in Egyptian style and dress, and participated in Egyptian religious life. Hellenistic culture thrived in Egypt until the Muslim conquest. The Ptolemies had to fight native rebellions and were involved in foreign and civil wars that led to the decline of the kingdom and its annexation by Rome."

You seem to be thinking that Ptolemaic Kingdom = Egypt

Furthermore, what is your source?Back2back2back (talk) 12:35, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be quoting from the introduction to the Ptolemaic Kingdom article. Try reading the whole of that article.

"Ptolemy ruled Egypt from 323 BC, nominally in the name of the joint kings Philip III and Alexander IV. However, as Alexander the Great's empire disintegrated, Ptolemy soon established himself as ruler in his own right. Ptolemy successfully defended Egypt against an invasion by Perdiccas in 321 BCE, and consolidated his position in Egypt and the surrounding areas during the Wars of the Diadochi (322 BC-301 BC). In 305 BC, Ptolemy took the title of King. As Ptolemy I Soter ("Saviour"), he founded the Ptolemaic dynasty that was to rule Egypt for nearly 300 years."

Later, the "Ptolemy I" section describes his conquest of various other lands, to "increase his domain" after he had secured Egypt itself. Various later Ptolemies also conquered other lands. --Robert Stevens (talk) 22:40, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

That does not change the fact that Ptolemaic Kingdom =/= Egypt.

The Ptolemaic Kingdom is Greek, it is not even Egyptian. Furthermore, the kingdom consisted of nations other than Egypt when Greece was split into four kingdoms.

The quote just reinforces the notion that the Greek Empire was divided, with the Ptolemaic Kingdom being one of the four pieces.Back2back2back (talk) 12:57, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Ptolemaic Kingdom = Egypt + conquered lands. After independence, the Ptolemies had Egypt, and conquered the rest. Note that the nation is constantly referred to as "Egypt":

"Perdiccas appointed Ptolemy, one of Alexander's closest companions, to be satrap of Egypt. Ptolemy ruled Egypt from 323 BC, nominally in the name of the joint kings Philip III and Alexander IV. However, as Alexander the Great's empire disintegrated, Ptolemy soon established himself as ruler in his own right. Ptolemy successfully defended Egypt against an invasion by Perdiccas in 321 BCE, and consolidated his position in Egypt and the surrounding areas during the Wars of the Diadochi (322 BC-301 BC). In 305 BC, Ptolemy took the title of King. As Ptolemy I Soter ("Saviour"), he founded the Ptolemaic dynasty that was to rule Egypt for nearly 300 years."

"Because the Ptolemaic kings adopted the Egyptian custom of marrying their sisters... ...Cleopatra VII officially co-ruled with Ptolemy XIII Theos Philopator, Ptolemy XIV, and Ptolemy XV, but effectively, she ruled Egypt alone.

"The first part of Ptolemy I's reign was dominated by the Wars of the Diadochi between the various successor states to the empire of Alexander. His first object was to hold his position in Egypt securely, and secondly to increase his domain."

"Antigonus then tried to invade Egypt but Ptolemy held the frontier against him."

"Ptolemy II Philadelphus, who succeeded his father as King of Egypt in 283 BC, was a peaceable and cultured king, and no great warrior. He did not need to be, because his father had left Egypt strong and prosperous."

"After this defeat Egypt formed an alliance with the rising power in the Mediterranean, Rome."

"In 170 BC, Antiochus IV Epiphanes invaded Egypt and deposed Philometor, and his younger brother (later Ptolemy VIII Euergetes II) was installed as a puppet king. When Antiochus withdrew, the brothers agreed to reign jointly with their sister Cleopatra II. They soon fell out, however, and quarrels between the two brothers allowed Rome to interfere and to steadily increase its influence in Egypt."

"These sordid dynastic quarrels left Egypt so weakened that the country became a de facto protectorate of Rome, which had by now absorbed most of the Greek world."

"By now Rome was the arbiter of Egyptian affairs, and annexed both Libya and Cyprus."

"When Cleopatra VII ascended the Egyptian throne, she was only seventeen."

"During the rule of the later Ptolemies, Rome gained more and more power over Egypt, and was even declared guardian of the Ptolemaic Dynasty. Cleopatra's father, Ptolemy XII had to pay tribute to the Romans to keep them away from his Kingdom."

...And so on (and the same is true in every other article I've seen on this topic). The Ptolemies were the Kings (and Queens) of Egypt, and were universally known as such. Anything else they ruled (other than via conquests, launched from Egypt) was inconsequential. --Robert Stevens (talk) 12:21, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

The Ptolemaic Kingdom was a Hellenistic (Greek) Empire. Egypt is simply the name of the conquered nation. You haven't provided any sources which say that the Ptolemaic Kingdom is not a Greek kingdom, but Egypt.

It is not out of the ordinary to call the conquered land "Egyptian" or the affairs "egyptian affairs".

http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Ottoman_Egypt

references were made to Egyptian forces, Egyptian affairs.

Furthermore, saying that Ptolemaic Kingdom = Egypt is very far-fetched since the capital was Greek, there were Greek colonies, a greek ruling class, and Greek was the official language, and that the Ptolemaic Kingdom was one of four kingdoms Alexander's empire split into, so in fact, Ptolemaic Kingdom = Greece.Back2back2back (talk) 17:53, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

So you would argue that America = Britain? Furthermore, you would deny that America conquered other lands (e.g. Japan in 1945, Iraq in 2003 etc) because it was under British rule at the time? I don't think many people would agree with you!

This is nonsense. Ptolemaic Egypt wasn't "Greece", it wasn't under the control of Greece, it had fought and won a war of independence from Greece, and in fact it remained an independent nation for a century longer than modern America has (thus far) been independent from Britain (so, are modern Americans "British"?). It also conquered other nations while being entirely independent of Greece (in addition to fighting additional wars against Greece itself).

Ptolemaic Egypt was Egypt (plus the additional lands that this Egypt-based empire conquered). Of course, a prophecy-advocate would argue that it wasn't the same Egypt that Ezekiel was writing about: but I included that argument in the text that you deleted! Here it is again:

"Classical Egypt was eventually conquered by the Persian empire, and did not rule over other nations for a while. However, in the later Ptolemaic period, Egyptian rule stretched from southern Syria to Cyrene and south to Nubia (see Ptolemaic Kingdom). Some apologists claim that Ptolemaic Egypt is a different political entity to the one Ezekiel was referring to, due to the Macedonian Greek origin of the ruling class (however, it was an independent nation at this time, not actually a vassal of Greece)."

Now, this version is 100% accurate: so why delete it?

Whereas here is your version:

"Classical Egypt was eventually conquered by the Persian empire and has not ruled over other nations since."

Now, this would only be accurate if the phrase "Classical Egypt" specifically excluded the Ptolemaic period: but in fact it does not (see Classical: indeed, the phrase is more commpnly used to refer specifically to the Greco-Roman period). "Pharaonic" won't do either, because the Ptolemies were Pharaohs.

I will restore my version. If you don't like the tone of it, then let's work on that: alternatively, the article could simply omit all the wrangling about the meaning of "Egypt" altogether by dropping that section. But we can't simply state that Egypt has not ruled over other nations at a time when Egypt plainly DID rule over other nations: that would be inaccurate. --Robert Stevens (talk) 11:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Why would I argue that America = Britain? Furthermore, why would I deny that America conquered lands? Your inference makes no sense.

"Classical Egypt was eventually conquered by the Persian empire, and did not rule over other nations for a while. However, in the later Ptolemaic period, Egyptian rule stretched from southern Syria to Cyrene and south to Nubia (see Ptolemaic Kingdom). Some apologists claim that Ptolemaic Egypt is a different political entity to the one Ezekiel was referring to, due to the Macedonian Greek origin of the ruling class (however, it was an independent nation at this time, not actually a vassal of Greece)."

"not rule over other nations for a while." implied that it did rule over other nations when in fact it was conquered by Alexander and then its kingdom was divided.

However, in the later Ptolemaic period, Egyptian rule stretched from southern Syria to Cyrene and south to Nubia (see Ptolemaic Kingdom).

No. Ptolemaic Kingdom rule (a Greek kingdom split off from Alexander) stretched from southern Syria to Cyrene and south to Nubia (see Ptolemaic Kingdom).

Some apologists claim that Ptolemaic Egypt is a different political entity to the one Ezekiel was referring to, due to the Macedonian Greek origin of the ruling class (however, it was an independent nation at this time, not actually a vassal of Greece)."

No. The Ptolemaic Kingdom was one of the kingdoms split from Alexander the Great's Greece. Furthermore, you neglected to mention that the capital city was Greek.

If you plan to edit, use the sandbox to prevent edit-warring and give reasons for your edit, and use its discussion page.

Let's summarize the reasons why Ptolemaic Kingdom =/= Egypt, most of which you neglect to address.

Alexander the Great conquered Egypt; afterwards, his kingdom was split, with the Ptolemaic Kingdom being one of the pieces, thus the Ptolemaic Kingdom is Greece.

The Ruling class was Greek, the capital, named after Alexander the Great, was Greek, there were Greek colonists, the official language was Greek.

No source describes the Ptolemaic Kingdom as something other than a Greek Kingdom.

Even if the Ptolemaic Kingdom is not a Greek Kingdom (which it is), Egypt was already conquered by Alexander anyway, so Egypt was part of Alexander the Great's Greece to being with.

Even if the Ptolemaic Kingdom is Egyptian (which it is not) and ruled over other lands, the ruling class was Greek.

Furthermore, to say that the Ptolemys became Greek makes no sense because the Egypt before the Ptolemaic Kingdom came into being was part of Alexander the Great's Empire. Back2back2back (talk) 12:29, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Back2back2back: why are you still claiming that I have "never addressed" issues that I have addressed repeatedly, and why are YOU still failing to address MY points?

The Ptolemaic kingdom was no more "Greek" than modern America is "British". Why are you still ignoring the fact that the Ptolemaic kingdom was INDEPENDENT of Greece?

Yes, Egypt had a "Greek" ruling elite. Why are you still repeating this as if it was something I don't accept? Likewise, America has a "British" ruling elite: do you accept this? Egypt had a capital built by the "foreigners", but so does America (Washington DC wasn't built by Native Americans). Sure, the Americans founded Washington DC after independence, but that's a minor detail: Egypt gained its independence shortly after the foundation of Alexandria.

As for Egypt being "conquered by Alexander the Great": you still seem to have a blind spot regarding the Persian Empire. Egypt wasn't an independent country before Alexander: it was a province of the Persian Empire. The Egyptians welcomed Alexander in, without a fight: the remnant of the occupying Persians put up only a token resistance (they were the ones Alexander "conquered", not the Egyptians, but it was a pushover). Egypt became an independent, self-governing nation again as a result of the Greek invasion and the subsequent rebellion of Ptolemy.

Also, Ptolemaic Egypt wasn't "split from" Alexander's empire in the manner you are suggesting. Alexander's generals were given chunks of the former Persian Empire to rule, but only as regional governors WITHIN Alexander's empire, not "split off" from it. The "splitting" happened after Alexander's death, when Ptolemy (and others) rebelled. And Ptolemy started with just Egypt and expanded from there.

"No source describes the Ptolemaic Kingdom as something other than a Greek Kingdom": uh, that's incorrect. It's described as a "Hellenistic" kingdom (Greek-influenced), but no source describes it as ruled by Greece or "part of Greece" after it gained its independence. Furthermore (and more importantly), multiple sources name it as EGYPT, and the Ptolemaic Dynasty ruled as PHARAOHS of EGYPT. You have utterly failed to mention this as a relevant fact. You have also utterly failed to mention that other lands were conquered FROM Egypt, and ruled FROM Egypt (and not from anywhere else: Egypt was not a vassal state).

And why have you accused me of "not mentioning" the Hellenistic nature of Ptolemaic Egypt in my edit, when I have very clearly done so?

As for using the sandbox: that's for major edits, this dispute is about three sentences (though your latest revert also knocked out a couple of quite unrelated edits of mine). Probably the best procedure here is to simply remove both disputed versions until this issue can be settled on the talkpage: I will try that. --Robert Stevens (talk) 16:49, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Your example of Native Americans, America, and Britain makes no sense. You have still not articulated how that parallels Egypt and Ptolemaic Kingdom. I suppose Britain would be Greece, and America would be the Ptolemaic Kingdom, and the native americans would be the Egyptians. The Ptolemaic Kingdom was one of the pieces split off Alexander the Great's Greece, and the Ptolemaic Kingdom occupied Egypt.

You're saying that Egypt became independent after Alexander the Great occupied it. It makes no sense. A nation doesn't become independent when one conquerer drives out another.

Alexander the Great's Kingdom was split up into pieces, Ptolemaic Kingdom being one of them. How is that incorrect?

http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Ancient_Greece#History

references were made to "hellenistic Greece" and "greek kingdoms"

Explain how Egypt can rule over other nations when it was conquered by the Persians, then Alexander, and then one of Alexander's generals after the kingdom was split

You keep thinking that the Ptolemaic Kingdom = Egypt when in fact, it is really a Greek kingdom split from Alexander's Greece and that the Ptolemaic Kingdom just happened to rule over Egypt. At that time, Egypt has been under foreign control for hundreds of years.

references were made to "Egypt", so what? Egypt was a conquered land and under Greek control.

You will find many references of just about every conquered nation which exists as an independent one today.

http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Roman_and_Byzantine_Greece

Furthermore, sandboxes are not made for major changes. Back2back2back (talk) 17:18, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Back2back2back: Yes, Egypt DID become independent after Alexander the Great conquered it (just as America became independent after the British took control of it). Egypt became independent after Ptolemy won a WAR OF INDEPENDENCE against the Greek Empire, just as America became independent after Washington won a WAR OF INDEPENDENCE against the British Empire.

Why are you still trying to pretend that Egypt's independence never happened?

Also, "Explain how Egypt can rule over other nations when it was conquered by the Persians, then Alexander, and then one of Alexander's generals after the kingdom was split"... and yet it is a historical fact that Egypt DID subsequently conquer and rule over other nations during the Ptolemaic period. You have been directed to an article which describes those conquests. So, why are you asking how it could have happened, when it plainly DID happen?

And your summary of the "splitting" of Alexander's empire completely fails to mention that the splitting was the result of bloody revolution and war (against Alexander's heir, Perdiccas). Your own source mentions this briefly, as "...after quite some conflict". Furthermore, your source uses the phrase "Ptolemaic Egypt" and expains how "Greece proper" lost out to this new power:

"During the Hellenistic period, the importance of "Greece proper" (that is, the territory of modern Greece) within the Greek-speaking world declined sharply. The great centers of Hellenistic culture were Alexandria and Antioch, capitals of Ptolemaic Egypt and Seleucid Syria respectively."

...So, Ptolemaic Egypt wasn't "Greece", and was in fact a rival of Greece (it even subsequently fought other WARS against Greece).

Meanwhile, as this dispute has plainly NOT been resolved, I will move your latest version here (and if you really want to move it on to a sandbox, then go ahead):

"Despite being a powerful nation in ancient times, Egypt has since been ruled by the Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Byzantine Empire, Ottomans, British and the French."

This version fails to mention Egypt's status as an independent nation during the Ptolemaic period (not being ruled over by any of the other nations you have listed), and during the modern era. It also fails to mention Egypt's conquest of other nations (though at least it no longer repeats the falsehood that Egypt did NOT rule over other nations, so I guess some progress is being made).

I propose the following:

"Despite being a powerful nation in ancient times, Egypt has since been ruled by the Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Byzantine Empire, Ottomans, British and the French. However, it has also enjoyed periods of independence from external rule, and has occasionally ruled over other nations in turn".

Incidentally, I will also revert your latest error, the claim that Ezekiel never mentions Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon as the conqueror and depopulator of Egypt. He does so repeatedly. After extensively describing the sacking and depopulation of Egypt (which will be uninhabited for 40 years), Ezekiel 29:19 says "I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall carry off her multitude". He then returns to the description of the destruction and depopulation before again naming Nebuchadnezzar as the destroyer: Ezekiel 30:10, " I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease, by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon." He again specifies the King of Babylon as the conqueror and scatterer of the Egyptians in 30:24-26. --Robert Stevens (talk) 12:09, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the Ptolemaic Kingdom was independent, but it was an independent Greek Kingdom, one of four pieces of Alexander the Great's divided kingdom. Ptolemaic Kingdom would be equivalent to America, and the Native Americans would be equivalent to the Egyptians.

If the British empire controlled the Eastern seaboard for 100 years, and then America split from the empire, you would be arguing that somehow, that gives the Native Americans independence.

You have never even been close to establish that Egypt was independent.

References to Ptolemaic Egypt doesn't show that Egypt was independent, there were references to Roman Egypt, Roman Greece after IT was conquered, etc. The term "Ptolemaic Egypt" doesn't prove a thing, the fact of the matter is, Egypt was part of the Ptolemaic Kingdom. You have not yet shown any evidence that Ptolemaic Kingdom = Egypt.

"Despite being a powerful nation in ancient times, Egypt has since been ruled by the Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Byzantine Empire, Ottomans, British and the French.

However, it has also enjoyed periods of independence from external rule, and has occasionally ruled over other nations in turn".

Independence? Explain to me how being part of a Greek Kingdom is independence, how the Greek dominating the upper class, the capital city being Greek, the language being Greek, is being independent.

Look at the entire picture. Egypt was first part of the Persian empire, then Alexander's. And then Alexander's Kingdom split. And now you're saying, that one of the pieces, the Ptolemaic Kingdom, equates to an independent Egypt when in fact, is just one of the pieces of Alexander's empire.

Furthermore, Ezekiel never says that Nebuchadnezzar will desolate and depopulate Egypt. Simply that Nebuchadnezzar will take Egypt's spoil.Back2back2back (talk) 13:51, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Ptolemaic Egypt was an independent nation, not governed by any other nation. Arguments about whether the Egyptians were "free" within that nation are irrelevant, as we're not talking about liberal democracies here: the Egyptians weren't "free" under the absolute rule of the ancient Pharaohs either. And Egypt was ruled by dynasties of foreign origin in the past (e.g. Kushites), but was still "Egypt": the Egyptians were used to that (China is similar in that regard).

Egypt didn't fall under Roman domination until much later (the end of the Ptolemaic period), so that is irrelevant. We're talking about a period when NO other nation ruled over Egypt (whereas Egypt DID rule over other nations: you're still forgetting that Egypt CONQUERED other nations during this period, they weren't just handed over by Alexander!)

Egypt was not "part" of anything, except what THEY conquered. By your argument, the British lost their "independence" when they gained an empire... which is nuts. No non-Egyptian part of the Ptolemaic Empire ruled OVER Egypt.

BTW, moving a disputed section to the talkpage is a common procedure, designed to prevent edit-warring in the main article: as you aren't co-operating in this, I will revert you.

And you are still wrong about what Ezekiel says regarding Nebuchadnezzar. The "multitude" is the population (the spoils are mentioned separately). "I will give the land of Egypt unto Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; and he shall carry off her population"... "I will also make the population of Egypt to cease, by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon". The end of chapter 30 describes how God will use the king of Babylon to scatter the EGYPTIANS among the nations, and disperse them through the countries. --Robert Stevens (talk) 16:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

...Oops, missed something. "Independence? Explain to me how being part of a Greek Kingdom is independence, how the Greek dominating the upper class, the capital city being Greek, the language being Greek, is being independent." Why are you still insisting that Egypt was "part of a Greek kingdom" after independence? Egypt wasn't initially "part of" anything else: Ptolemy began with just Egypt alone. The rest, of course, also applies to independent America: with the (former) British dominating the English-speaking upper class, the capital city being built by these people, and so forth. --Robert Stevens (talk) 16:42, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

So just because I disagree with you means I'm refusing dispute resolution? I've given reasons for every change I've made, if you continue to revert indiscriminately, I will report you. You proceeded to edit and revert before you proposed to move the disputed section to the talk pages.

There is no dispute about the fact that Egypt was ruled by many foreign powers, there is no reason not to include it in the article. Saying that the article fails to mention some fact is no reason to delete others. However, I am willing to move the entire section to the sandbox and leave only the basic theme of the prophecy. (http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User:Back2back2back/Sandbox)

You keep saying that Egypt is an independent nation when in fact it was part of the Ptolemaic Kingdom. The only reason you've given for that is because of references to "Ptolemaic Egypt". I've pointed out many times that when nations are conquered and are part of an empire, they can still be referred to such as "Roman Greece". references such as "Ptolemaic Egypt" does not prove a thing.

Furthermore, multitude does not necessarily mean "population", it is used in many contexts.Back2back2back (talk) 19:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Let me point out Robert that America was a new country, so by the same standard we would have to describe the Ptolemaic Kingdom as a new country as well. If we equivocated Egypt and the Ptolemaic Kingdom, we would have to by analogy equivocate America with the Iroquois.--Jorfer (talk) 02:38, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Jorfer: Yes, I've already admitted the flaw in the analogy (in my 22nd April post), in that there was no pre-existing unified nation of "America" that the British took over. Hence the need to imagine that there was a pre-existing office of "Great Chief of the American Tribes" (or whatever) that George Washington assumed, rather than becoming "President" (the equivalent of the Ptolemies becoming Pharaohs of Egypt). Earlier (April 8th) I had proposed medieval England as an analogy, where William the Conqueror established a French-speaking aristocracy and French remained the language of the aristocracy for centuries afterwards, but the nation was still "England": but Back2back2back didn't seem to be familiar with this period. --Robert Stevens (talk) 11:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

...Meanwhile: OK, it's now moved to a sandbox (a rather larger chunk than I was expecting, but nevermind). Now I'm not sure whether the best place for comments is here, or in the sandbox, or on the (not yet existing) sandbox talkpage...

There is no dispute that Egypt was ruled by many foreign powers, and that's fine. However, if we fail to also mention Egypt's periods of freedom from external rule, and the various nations that Egypt itself ruled over, then we create an NPOV issue. We should mention both lists, or neither.

Also, I think you still haven't grasped the fact that Ptolemaic Egypt wasn't "part of" anything else at all, initially. The Ptolemaic Kingdom was just Egypt, and nothing else. Ptolemaic Egypt had been part of a larger empire, but that was during Alexander's time: it later became part of a larger empire, but that was because it conquered other lands. A nation doesn't lose its independence, or its identity as a nation, in this fashion: this would lead to the absurd scenario that America lost its independence and was taken over by the "Trumanic Empire" when it occupied Japan after WW2. --Robert Stevens (talk) 11:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

The French analogy is far better. I agree that both sides should be put down to maintain NPOV.--Jorfer (talk) 15:42, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it'll be better to start discussion on the sandbox talkpage. Back2back2back (talk) 19:08, 30 April 2009 (UTC)