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more resources

I could have added a lot more resources on the pro-Bible side.

For example:

BIBLE PROPHETS VERSUS NON-BIBLE MEDIUMS/PSYCHICS

Brookside Church in Ohio states the following regarding the Bible's laws regarding prophets and the accuracy of modern day psychics as reported by a recent study:

"A true prophet is correct 100% of the time. A test of a prophet was whether they prophesied an event that did not come to pass. Prophets whose predictions failed to come to pass were stoned [It should be said that some prophecies were conditional. For example, if a certain people did not repent then they would suffer judgement.] Some prophecies w. People would think twice before revealing any kind of prophecy. Yet the Bible contains more prophecy about Jesus than any other book on any other founder of ancient religion.

Today there are people who claim to have psychic power. In 1975, The People's Almanac did a study of 25 of the best psychics. Out of 72 predictions, 66 (92%) were totally wrong. The remaining 8% could be explained away."

Taken from the following website: http://www.brooksidechurch.com/etw/jc7.htm

Also:

GENERAL ARTICLE: PROPHECY AS A DEFENSE OF THE BIBLE

http://www.equip.org/free/DA151.htm


SOME PROPHECIES OF THE BIBLE

http://www.100prophecies.org/default.htm]


MESSIANIC PROPHECY FULFILLED IN JESUS

http://www.messianic-prophecy.net/



ken 23:47, 27 July 2005 (UTC)kdbuffalo

QUICK NOTE

If nobody gives a reason why the POV tag was placed and nobody complains about its removal I think it should be removed

16:24, 28 July 2005 (UTC)kdbuffalo

Actually it was a POV-check tag, not a POV tag. There is a substantial difference. POV check is a request that the article be peer-reviewed for POV because at first glance it looks like it could be POV. See Wikipedia:POV check ~~~~ 17:45, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I am new. Thank you for the clarification.

ken 15:21, 29 July 2005 (UTC)kdbuffalo


MORE INFORMATION

it would be nice if someone included information from judaic ideas and words for prophecy (multiple words with different meanings), the christian church often uses the word "prophecy" in the sense of the future, where as biblical this is not always the case with the idea of prophecy [[Dan

TO: dante

I covered the foretelling verses not foretelling already.

I wrote:

"Those who hold to the doctrine of Biblical inspiration hold that the God of the Bible spoke through the Biblical prophets in order to provide moral teaching, guidance, comfort, warning, or to foretell important events.

ken 02:08, 30 August 2005 (UTC)kdbuffalo

Repeated deletions by user Kdbuffalo

The section on the "Tyre prophecy" is being continually reverted, most notably by user User:Kdbuffalo, with no comment on this Talk page and the comment "no exegesis done" for the actual deletion. But the article cites a legitimate, citation-supported critical view of this Biblical prophecy: that many reject the notion of the "Tyre prophecy" because it apparently failed. Even if "Biblical exegesis" could somehow solve this problem (and I know from experience that it cannot), that wouldn't change the fact that this is a common reason given by skeptics for THEIR view regarding this issue. It is entirely appropriate to include it. --Robert Stevens 19:24, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The critic Farrell Till has merely English degrees and is no Bible exegesis expert. ken 21:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
...Then would you mind explaining why you have elsewhere posted material from J. P. Holding, a Christian apologist who has no relevant credentials whatsoever? Farrell Till is a notable authority, his work has passed scholarly peer-review, and he represents a legitimate and widely-held view. Hence, I will revert this (again). Besides, this view of the Tyre prophecy is common among Christians too (other than inerrantists, of course). Even if "they all got it wrong", it would still be a common and notable view. --Robert Stevens 19:04, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
When has the work of Farell Till passed scholarly peer review? Please demonstrate what you assert. ken 00:40, 9 October 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
Till has numerous articles in the Secular Web's "Modern Documents" library, which has a peer-review process on submissions[1]. In any case, exegesis doesn't require any specific qualifications: it's merely reading what the author actually wrote (in context) to determine what he meant, rather than imposing one's own views on the text. As a former Church-Of-Christ pastor and missionary, who attended two of their colleges and obtained his degrees there, Till is well aware of Christian interpretations of scripture, but his English degrees are relevant to his expertise in semantics and the structure of language, which helps to determine meaning. In the Till/Hogan discussion ([2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]), his exegesis of the Tyre prophecy was a major factor in his victory.
It's worth comparing this with Holding's sloppy exegesis of the Tyre prophecy[8]. In his interpretation of "many nations", Holding failed to notice that Ezekiel described Nebby as "King of kings" (i.e. an overking, a ruler of many nations) in Ezekiel 26:7. He also failed to notice that the separation of the prophecy into "Nebby's part" and "Alexander's part" doesn't really help, because Nebby's failure to breach the walls of Tyre and enter the city means that the part allocated specifically to HIM failed (Ezekiel 26:9-11). Holding was apparently unaware of the fact that the city of Tyre was on the island, even though Ezekiel himself apparently understood this, consistently referring to Tyre as "in the midst of the sea", likening attackers to waves of the sea, and playing with the "top of a rock" metaphor (referring to the great rock of the island fortress that gave the city its name). --Robert Stevens 11:50, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry but I still do not believe that Farrell Till passed scholarly peer review. ken 01:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
...And do you seriously imagine that Turkel/Holding has? Both Till AND the Secular Web are notable AND authoritative sources. --Robert Stevens 11:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The link list seems to have passed the spam event horizon. Please decide which ones provide significant additional context over and above what would be included in a great article. Guy (Help!) 09:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Merge Biblical Last Days

I have added the templates to suggest merging information from the Biblical Last Days article to this one. I believe that the information does overlap, and that the Biblical Last Days writing does not have enough information or context to be a seperate article. Hopefully it can be merged here and improved by someone with more knowledge in the subject. *Vendetta* (whois talk edits) 19:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

npov

I think if one complains about NPOV they should state why in the talksection. It is just common courtesy and shows you are serious.

After having just read this article for the first time I agreed with the tag placed in one section that it seemed to be presenting a certain perspective persuasively using non-NPOV language. It wasn't that it was poorly written, it's just in the wrong place for a appologetic article on 7th day adventism. It also lacked citations and sources and thus appeared to be original research on the part of the author. I removed the section but not to worry, it's still in the history if anyone would like to rework it to NPOV stance, using citations and appropriate neutrality. Thanks! --DjSamwise 21:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I've added a few small sections that give practical insight into the actual mechanics behind prophecy, I hope that it helps.

Radical man 7 23:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

==You will have to excuse me, in adding a few sections, I inadvertedly erase the title of a following topic==Radical man 7 08:11, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

New sections

Before deciding on whether to criticize or ask for the removal of these new sections, try to make use of this new methodology, give it a try over any topic, let me know if it works for you... Oh, being that the conceptual background of the last days mirrors that of the last days , the small section on the last days should be removedRadical man 7 18:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

to be added or corrected

1) I am unsure of how I feel about the opening sentence to this article, but I want to think about that more, maybe some of you can think about it too. There is just something wrong with it and I cant put my finger on it. 2) I'm going to clean up some not so good word usage that is unnecessary or vague. and also do some grammatical checks. 3) In my opinion, the sentence on biblical heremeneutics is not accurate. I'm going to posts something on the biblical hermeneutics page also. I might reword that sentence later. Thanks Dantedanti 15:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

A new methodology and perspective is shown in the sections just added, hopefully these should help settle this matter.Radical man 7 18:47, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Roughly one quarter?

Are you kidding me? Roughly one quarter of Bible verses are regarded to have some form of prophecy? This is unsourced and probably nonsense--I'm replacing it with "many" or "several" or some other unspecific word until a source appears, okay? Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 05:40, 18 April 2006 (UTC) Sweatin out the use of microsoft excel should be able to verify the claim. One problem will be that of establishing a functional criteria for choosing texts.Radical man 7 18:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

to be added please

would be nice to see the following information added: hermeneutics and prophecy as well as a link to biblical hermeneutics examples of biblical prophecy with different opinions on each examples interpretations more information regarding dating specific books of the bible (for example, as well as for daniel, it is important for christians that the gospels be dated before the destruction of the second temple) information on the critics claim that the bible has been falsified addition of more diverse theological and rationalist views of prophecy which branches of christianity today believe that prophecy still occurs within the church and which branches believe that prophecy ended at the destruction of the temple? how do the churches practicing prophecy, organize and deal with their prophets and prophecy?

though I dont totally agree with the npov nomination, I think that adding information on the differences between judaic and christian interpretations of key verses would help...an example is, I believe, Psalms 22. Christians often say these verses are about the messiah, Judaism however does not believe this. Also when discussing specific verses, please discuss translation issues.

dantedanti

A new section has been included to help settle the matter on biblical dating.Radical man 7 19:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Ideology guarantees interpretation that coincides with the identity of a denomination.Radical man 7 19:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

organization

I believe that the bible code section should get its own subsection. Also how about someone making subsections for some of the books of the bible, discussing different views of the propechy in each individual book. The new sections added should help settle this matter.Radical man 7 19:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[DanteDanti]

Book of Daniel

a link to the Wikipedia Book of Daniel article will reveal that not only Porphyry but many modern scholars believe that chapters 7-11 were all written after the desecration of the Temple in 168.BCE by Antiochus. - Indeed, a lot of scholars believe the whole book was written at this time, possibly incorporating earlier stories in chapters 1-6. And a link to the article on Apocalyptic literature tells us that The Book of Daniel is "a fully matured and classic example of this genre of literature." 82.38.88.156 23:17, 17 October 2005 (UTC)David Goss

A good point (and this really should have been edited by now). The late authorship of Daniel is now the mainstream scholarly view: Britannica, for instance, states this as fact. It is disingenuous to imply that this was just Porphyry's view. I have edited accordingly: "(a view now shared by many modern scholars)". I was tempted to say "most", but I expect someone might challenge me on the actual numbers. --Robert Stevens 11:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This debate is included in one of the new sections added.Radical man 7 19:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Roman Empire

I get annoyed by people who say the Bible points to the European Union as the new Roman Empire but two points have just struck me and I was wondering if anyone can shed light on them:

  • 1) The Roman Empire was alive and well when the New Testament was written, so how can the Bible foresee the re-creation of an empire which had not yet fallen apart? Did the Bible foresee the collapse of the Roman Empire in the first place? Is there a specific section of the Bible which specifically mentions the collapse of the Empire, then the re-creation of the Empire, or is it just the way a particular verse is interpreted? I've just googled the specific passages of Daniel mentioned in the article and they don't seem to have anything to do with this prediction. Also, wasn't Daniel written before the Roman Empire? How can it predict the re-formation of an empire which hadn't even been established for the first time, never mind a second time?
  • 2) Why do people say that the European Union is the reformed Roman Empire? Why do they not point to Napoleon's Empire, or the Third Reich, or the Byzantine Empire, or the Empire of Charlemagne, or the Holy Roman Empire or any of the other large supra-national political entities which have been created in Europe between the end of the Roman Empire and the present day? Why is the finger pointed at the EU and none of these previous entities? It seems a strange choice, considering that the EU is mostly made up of countries which weren't in the Roman Empire in the first place. Rusty2005 16:05, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The emphasis on Rome totally misses the point. The role of the four empires is to confirm the decription of the age of the Gentiles which only appears in Daniel. The age of the Gentiles is the conceptual framework for the last days. The idea of confirming messages is present in the many repeated themes within the prophets. There are situations where the theme and message of one prophet confirms the ministry of another.Radical man 7 19:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Article merge

The suggested article merge seems like a bad idea to me. It would tend to make this article pov since the other article is clearly pov and is even stated as such. Mystylplx 16:34, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I also agree that the merger is a bad idea. Messianic propheyc is a subdivision of Bible prophecy which is a larger article. ken 21:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)kdbuffalo
At the moment its [the messianic prophecy article] just a list of quotes, rather than a proper article. I think it should be merged before it gets removed to Wikisource or Wikiquote completely. I can see how (Alleged) Messianic Prophecy is significant among notable literalist groups in Christianity (american conservative Protestants etc.), and that there could probably be an article written about it, but all we have now is a big list of quotes; there is very little actual article. Clinkophonist 13:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The bible is multi-themed, each theme is revealed, described and dealt with in revelations. The themes are addressed starting from Genesis through Revelations. Looking at this perspective makes the need for the different disciplines unnecessary, the revelation is one.Radical man 7 19:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Misleading Language?

"Another example, would be that Arthur C. Custance (weblink) maintained that the Ezekiel Tyre prophecy (Ezek. 26: 1-11; 29:17-20) was very remarkable. On the other hand, scholar Gustave Holscher maintained that certain passages of the book of Ezekiel were not written by a pre-Exilic prophet of Israel but were later added in the Persian period."

This is rather misleading. It gives the impression that there IS an apparent "fulfilled prophecy" here, which (for a skeptic) would require an explanation such as "written later". But actually the failure of the Tyre prophecy seems readily apparent (Tyre does still exist, after all: contrary to the prophecy) and requires no such explanation. Indeed, I've seen it argued that Ezekiel must have been edited because the failure is so obvious (i.e. Ezekiel's enemies must have done it to discredit him). I haven't been able to find out whether this is Gustave Holscher's position. Otherwise, the evident failure is used by skeptics as evidence against the notion of after-the-event authorship, on the assumption that Ezekiel wouldn't have retrospectively written an already-failed prophecy. Tyre is moot, the reason that tyre is included is not as a prophecy, but a confirmation of other prophecies that describe cities, to include those described as women and revealed in the text related to the fall of babylon in revelations where, as in the case of tyre, describes the capitol of an empire and its international commerce.Radical man 7 19:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

BTW, What's going on with "External Links"?

"Prophecy in the news currently - Fulfillment of end time prophecy taking place now". The title of the linked article is "Prophecy in the news currently": the additional comment "fulfillment of end time prophecy taking place now" appears to be a POV. At best, the word "Alleged... should be inserted.

Ditto with "Fulfilled Prophecy - Unfolding events prophesied in the book of Revelation." The phrase "Unfolding events prophesied..." appears to be unjustifiable.

"Messianic Prophecy: Messianic prophecy - Compelling predictions". The title of the article DOES include the phrase "Compelling predictions", but if the phrase is to be included, why not include it in the title of the link? As it stands, it gives the impression of a Wikipedia endorsement.

Ditto for "...Revealing the future through Bible prophecy". It IS in the title, so why isn't it part of the link text?

There is also a shortage of external links critical of the notion of Biblical prophesy. Should there be "Pro" and "Con" sections? --Robert Stevens 12:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Update: as nobody seems to be raising an objection, I've removed the POV comments on various external links as described above, and added Farrell Till's "Prophecies: Imaginary and Unfulfilled" and Curt van den Heuvel's "Revealing Daniel". --Robert Stevens 11:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

...And I've now replaced "On the other hand, scholar Gustave Holscher maintained that certain passages of the book of Ezekiel were not written by a pre-Exilic prophet of Israel but were later added in the Persian period" with "On the other hand, others consider the failure of the Tyre prophecy to be self-evident [9] (as Tyre still exists, contrary to the prophecy), and scholar Gustave Holscher maintained that certain passages of the book of Ezekiel were not written by a pre-Exilic prophet of Israel but were later added in the Persian period". I've deliberately left Holscher's exact position somewhat ambiguous, pending further information. --Robert Stevens 15:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC) The new sections provided in this article should provide some insight into the mechanics behind this sub-topic. Radical man 7 19:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I see that user 136.183.146.137 has reverted these additions. But the existence of Tyre is not a "point of view" as claimed: it is a fact that can easily be verified by consulting any atlas (in fact, modern Tyre is the fourth-largest city in Lebanon). Is the existence of Jerusalem "POV" too? This is ridiculous.
It is also silly to suggest that a citation is need for the claim that "many modern scholars" regard Daniel as written late. This is common knowledge, and there's a Wikipedia page on Daniel which dicusses this in detail! It appears that this editor wishes the original misleading wording to remain: the implication that only Porphyry held this view.
As for his previous edit: if he wants a citation for " In the last century this view has been accepted by many in Judaism, Catholic Christianity, in theologically liberal branches of Protestant Christianity, and in Unitarian Universalism. However, this view is totally rejected by Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians", then surely a "citation needed" tag would have been more appropriate than outright deletion? I am reverting to the version prior to these changes. --Robert Stevens 22:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Update: I have reverted another attempt to censor the existence of Tyre (including deletion of my link to the Tyre page), by user 136.183.146.158, with the comment "no exegesis done for claim". Tyre EXISTS: this is a fact, and "Biblical exegesis" won't change that fact. Nor will it change the fact that Ezekiel prophesied permanent destruction. I am well aware of apologetic attempts to get around this problem (e.g. Tyre was to be permanently destroyed in a "metaphorical sense"), and I know why such arguments fail. But Wikipedia is not the place for apologetics. The section is intended to point out the reason why skeptics consider the prophecy to have failed: regardless of whether you agree with it or not. And, in my experience, many of the more clueless apologists actually don't know that Tyre exists: I've seen claims that "the island sank" and that Tyre is "just a fishing village". This sort of very basic factual error needs correcting, and that IS within the remit of an encyclopaedia.

A new standard

As in other disciplines, technicians are created with the help of texts by established authorities, acquiring a basic knowledge of how to use the Bible. This is supposed to mean that a good thematic knowledge of the bible and a good methodology should be enough to explore and use any topic. However, the current age that we are a part of requires not only the stating of facts and opinions, today the methodology itself is now subject to public scrutiny. The use of commentary and methods are part of all professions, these texts and commentaries are the foundation of this discipline and should be treated as such. However, I find that the over-reliance on commentary which is only designed for the training of those that deal with theology, creates a situation where an individual's insight or methodology is dismissed out of hand and not by the merits of a given idea or methodology. This also means that the authoritive use of scripture is nullified because the opinion of a doctor of theology is used instead of what comes from experience, insight and conviction of the person that has to deal with life in the trenches. The use of concepts and being able to follow the development of a given concept throughout the Bible can only result in a methodology that not only provides insight into a given theme or situation, it also means that the functional aspect is put to the test, and in virtue of its functionality, is likely to be accepted as a new standard.Radical man 7 19:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a new interpritation of Bible prophecy coming down the pipe

Check out this website. http://www.tkic.piczo.com With the permission of Wiki I will post the information given. CWHJr 22:33, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

This is not the type of reliable source required by Wikipedia. ✤ JonHarder talk 22:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

basic point missing

Hasn't anybody of the type that is allowed to be quoted in Wikipedia (e.g. academics) done a study showing that biblical prophecy is nonsense? The reason I ask is that I have been involved in a very long web forum debate, in which I demonstrated that in those parts of the bible in which there are lots of prophecies, for every prophecy which could, with generous refereeing, possibly be said to have come true, there are several prophecies which very clearly have not. It was not particularly difficult for me to make this case - so if it has not been done formally, then I am surprised. New Thought 13:48, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Confusing, Lack of Citations, violates NPOV

This article presents a confusing perspective and multiple sections that seem to either violate NPOV by using an in-group perspective, or an assumption of culture (for example references to "Ancient Hebrew law and our current legal system"... which legal system? Israels?). Entire sections, or major premises of sections lack citations, and the phrasing is often confusing. The "Scientific Process" section makes no sense, though it appears as an attempt to discuss Biblical prophecy from a scientific standpoint.

Since 'prophecy' is by its nature often self-fulfilling, or at least horribly subjective in interpretation, i suggest that this article merely present an overview of what Biblical Prophecy is (or how it is used), and perhaps some specific examples of prophetic claims (not the veracity, just the claims). for example, examples in this article should be limited to "In 7XX CE, Bob McProphet claimed that Person X was the AntiChrist". Or perhaps it would be better to merge this into the appropriate Apologetics articles, since that is the essential application of "biblical prophecy".

Another idea would be to simply remove this page, or merge it with a larger article exploring the scientific understanding of prophetic claims and any neutral, scientific process for verifying such claims, since many claims of prophecy are so subjectively interpreted.

If i knew how to do it, i would tag this article with a merger suggestion , a POV tag, and most importantly the lack of sources tag, as information without support is useless, misleading, or malicious.

69.108.166.204 18:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)Avidya, 2007 July 11, 11:13am PDT69.108.166.204 18:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Name of article

Shouldn't the name be "Biblical prophecy", since "biblical" is an adj, whereas "bible" is a noun? It sounds wrong to me. Lostcaesar 21:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

No, the term "Bible Prophecy" has long been the accepted term for it. Though technically from a linguistic standpoint you are correct, there are many other examples such as, "Relativity Theory".--RichG 11:04, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with a nice compund noun... e.g. 'science fiction'.

Can you explain this edit?

[10]... I believe that there are some Jews which do not advocate for rebuilding Solomon's Temple, right? ScienceApologist (talk) 03:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I suppose some Jews may advocate whatever they like, but that does not alter the unified Jewish approach. Would it be proper to assert that "Jews revere the Old Testament, but not the New Testament"? Classically, the Jewish people are the "People of the Book," referring to the Old Testament. If some decide they profess more allegiance to the TV Guide, does that change the essence of the construct that Jews are followers of the Old Testament? The answer is a resounding 'no'.
Similary, Judaism espouses that there were two temples built in Jerusalem and both were destroyed, and with the coming of the Messiah, the third and final temple will once again grace the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. This is not an ultra-orthodox sentiment, but one that is mentioned extensively in the daily prayers, possessing considerable sourcing througout the books of Prophets, Writings and the Talmud. How would you suggest wording the sentence in a way that reflects truth rather than pandering to the politically correctness that is seemingly leaching into the fabric of reality? DRosenbach (Talk | Contribs) 03:31, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Is it part of Reform Judaism creed? Seems to me that it is not. ScienceApologist (talk) 13:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Confirmed, no, it is not. Obviously not all Jews believe this, so we must qualify. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Please check this edit for discussion on the matter. I changed this to "Orthodox Jews" to be clear. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Books on Christian Eschatology

This section looks like a place people can promote their books. If the books are really that useful, then they can add information from them and include them in the reference format. As such, is there any reason this section should not be deleted? Carl.bunderson (talk) 12:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Done, in absense of opposition. Carl.bunderson (talk) 16:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Literalism v. Skepticism

Much of the article at present expresses a purely Christian viewpoint. A particular example of this is the Literalism v. Skepticisms section. Orthodox Jews believe in an explanatory oral tradition which often involves highly nonliteral interpretations of Moses' writings. They also believe as an article of Jewish faith that only Moses spoke directly to God and hence the other prophets aren't as clear as Moses, hence there's no problem not taking what they said literally. This is held as a matter of belief, not a matter of skepticism. The whole dichotomy between literalism and skepticism is simply irrelevant. --Shirahadasha (talk) 23:06, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

  • "messiah2" :
    • * He will gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel.<ref>Isaiah 11:12, Isaiah 27:12-13
    • [http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html Messiah Truth: A Jewish Response to Missionary Groups<!-- Bot generated title -->]

DumZiBoT (talk) 19:59, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Muhammad Prophecies

These all seem to be unscholarly and or unsourced original research. A cleanup is in order. --Ali M Saad (talk) 04:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

These statements are not original research...Islamic scholars and imams will argue the Bible foreshadows Muhammad...I will admit the sources are not very good, but if you were to challenge the statements rather than the sourcing, most of these statements would likely be found in scholarly analysis.--Jorfer (talk) 13:28, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Article name change

I propose we change the name of this article to "Debunking Bible prophecy" and give fulfilled Biblical prophecy a page of it's own since this article appears to be concerned with showing how Bible prophecy is, in fact, no such thing. What do others think on this? Fritleyfrisp (talk) 08:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

This article as it is currently mostly discusses events that would be considered prophetic failures, but that does not mean the title should be changed. To do what you are saying would be POV forking. The content just needs to include events that would be considered prophetic successes such as the restoration of Israel. If you have the time, go ahead and add this to the article with proper sourcing of course, preferably with sources outside of the Bible to make sure it is not Original Research.--Jorfer (talk) 17:38, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure that the instances cited in the article are prophecies at all. What do you think? Fritleyfrisp (talk) 20:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


Here is an example:
Cain says "...I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."[1] God then proceeds to offer Cain protection "...Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over. Then the Lord put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him."[2] Cain then impregnates his wife and she gave birth to a son named Enoch, while he built a city.[3]

I would like to see a source from any ancient Jewish literature, a midrashic interpretation, an ancient Christian source or any modern Bible scholar who considers this prophetic and not historical reportage. Cain is not prophesying, he is commenting and he can get it wrong just like any other human being. Qualifications for a prophecy in the Bible are clearly laid out in Deuteronomy and other books in the Torah. A writer reporting an historical event in which someone says something that is wrong does not constitute failed prophecy or an inaccuracy on any part of the Bible other than that person who is being reported. In order for a writing to qualify as prophectic it has to be a document that is made before the event, specifically to a coming event and then fulfilled. The use of the Bible in this way to show instances of "unfulfilled" "prophecy" is intellectually bankrupt. It should be changed. Fritleyfrisp (talk) 16:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

One problem: I'm pretty sure there aren't any verifiably-fulfilled prophecies in the Bible. Indeed, I've even seen some of the more clued-up Christians say this (on discussion groups and so forth). So the allegedly "fulfilled" Biblical prophecies would have to be provided with their own debunkings. For instance, every alleged reference to the restoration of Israel that I've ever seen is actually an out-of-context reference to either the return from the Babylonian Captivity, or the hoped-for return from the earlier Assyrian Captivity (which didn't actually happen, hence the legend of the "Lost Tribes of Israel"), or something too vague to be counted as a specific claim. --Robert Stevens (talk) 18:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, it's unworkable for another reason too: in many cases, we're not even talking about separate lists of prophecies here. Many of the prophecies claimed as successes by apologists are not merely unverifiable, but are actually verifiable as failures. Examples include Ezekiel's "Tyre prophecy", the "Babylon prophecy" of Isaiah and Jeremiah (Babylon wasn't destroyed by the Medes as prophesied, but went on to become the biggest city in the world during the time it was supposed to be "permanently uninhabited"), and Ezekiel's prophecy of the restoration of Israel (in Ezekiel's time, this name referred specifically to the northern kingdom, whose inhabitants had been carried off by the Assyrians shortly before: as previously mentioned, they never actually came back). --Robert Stevens (talk) 22:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Jeremiah 30 (NIV version) describes the Holocaust, restoration of Israel, and the countries being destroyed that the Jews have been exiled in while the Jews still remain. This of course would have to contain both views to be NPOV and be from third party sources, but the chapter is not even mentioned right now:


1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD : 2 "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD."

4 These are the words the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah: 5 "This is what the LORD says: " 'Cries of fear are heard— terror, not peace.

6 Ask and see: Can a man bear children? Then why do I see every strong man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor, every face turned deathly pale?

7 How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it.

8 " 'In that day,' declares the LORD Almighty, 'I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them.

9 Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.

10 " 'So do not fear, O Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, O Israel,' declares the LORD. 'I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid.

11 I am with you and will save you,' declares the LORD. 'Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.'

12 "This is what the LORD says: " 'Your wound is incurable, your injury beyond healing.

13 There is no one to plead your cause, no remedy for your sore, no healing for you.

14 All your allies have forgotten you; they care nothing for you. I have struck you as an enemy would and punished you as would the cruel, because your guilt is so great and your sins so many.

15 Why do you cry out over your wound, your pain that has no cure? Because of your great guilt and many sins I have done these things to you.

16 " 'But all who devour you will be devoured; all your enemies will go into exile. Those who plunder you will be plundered; all who make spoil of you I will despoil.

17 But I will restore you to health and heal your wounds,' declares the LORD, 'because you are called an outcast, Zion for whom no one cares.'

18 "This is what the LORD says: " 'I will restore the fortunes of Jacob's tents and have compassion on his dwellings; the city will be rebuilt on her ruins, and the palace will stand in its proper place.

19 From them will come songs of thanksgiving and the sound of rejoicing. I will add to their numbers, and they will not be decreased; I will bring them honor, and they will not be disdained.

20 Their children will be as in days of old, and their community will be established before me; I will punish all who oppress them.

21 Their leader will be one of their own; their ruler will arise from among them. I will bring him near and he will come close to me, for who is he who will devote himself to be close to me?' declares the LORD.

22 " 'So you will be my people, and I will be your God.' "

23 See, the storm of the LORD will burst out in wrath, a driving wind swirling down on the heads of the wicked.

24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back until he fully accomplishes the purposes of his heart. In days to come you will understand this.

Critics would be right to point out vagueness as to when these events will occur, but it is important to notice that God told Jeremiah to write these words in a book indicating a need to preserve these words for a significant amount of time.

--Jorfer (talk) 18:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Jeremiah was written around the time of the Babylonian Captivity. Note that Jeremiah 30:3 still refers to the two kingdoms, Israel and Judah: the people of Israel had been taken by the Assyrians, and those of Judah had been taken by the Babylonians. Taking this out of its historical context and applying it to the Diaspora and the Holocaust would be problematic because of verse 11: most of the nations that the Jews were later scattered to were not enemies, and were not destroyed by God. Of course, apologists have applied it in this fashion nonetheless... --Robert Stevens (talk) 10:52, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
You're mis-reading the text. The text doesn't say anything about God destroying (leaving aside the definition of 'destroy') the nations that he sends them into. Neither does it say anything about the nations in which God will send his people would be enemies as you have asserted. Read it carefully,you will see that God describes himself as the judge of the nations as in "I am God and this is what I do." Verse 11 is not a prophecy of the destruction of the nations into which God sends the Israelites but a prophecy of his preservation of them despite his ability to destroy all because of his sovereignty. With this in mind, verse 11 is actually a good example of at least a partially fulfilled prophecy from a Christian perspective since the ancient Semite race do still exist. I'm sure that you will find that many dispensational Christians would also teach that Jer 30 is referring to a fulfillment which is yet to come but is currently in the process of being fulfilled. Fritleyfrisp (talk) 16:20, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
"most of the nations that the Jews were later scattered to were not enemies"

Well if they weren't at first they usually soon became enemies. The Persian Empire began killing all the Jews in Esther due to Haman, Antiochus did not make the Greeks look much better, the Romans burned Jerusalem, the Jews were persecuted during the Inquisition, the Russians gave them pogroms,and we all know what the Germans did. Sure Jews are scattered all over the world now and the Spanish, Russians, and Germans have not been completely destroyed, but this part of the prophecy is indefinite; it cannot be fully evaluated until the Apocalypse happens, but so far it has remained true. The Jews are persecuted, and the civilizations that persecute them are eventually destroyed, while the Jews retain their cultural identity. The passage does mention that the message is being spoken to Judah and Israel, but the passage speaks in terms of one Israel; Jacob is predominantly used and Judah is not mentioned in the actual prophecy. The point of the matter is that this passage should be discussed from both sides for the article not to be slanted by omission.--Jorfer (talk) 16:04, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you implying that God will destroy (for instance) the United States of America for harboring Jews? When set in its proper historical context, there's no problem: Jeremiah is invoking God's wrath against Assyria and Babylon (and probably Egypt too). --Robert Stevens (talk) 17:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
No, I am not saying the United States will be destroyed for harboring the Jews. All nations except Israel will be destroyed for collaborating with the anti-Christ. Historical criticism is just one tool for looking at prophecy; textual criticism is just as valid. The command to write it in a book was an indication the message was not for Jeremiah's generation, and the use of Jacob indicates a corporal suffering for all of the Jews. This is not a discussion board. The point is that a discussion of this chapter by third-party sources is important to have in the article regardless of personal opinion of the validity of it.--Jorfer (talk) 17:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Another example of this nonsense:

"Jonah 

   * Jonah prophesies that in forty days Nineveh shall be overthrown, but Nineveh was spared for turning from their evil ways.[41]"

Jonah prophesies that Nineveh will be overthrown in forty days if they do not turn from their evil ways. Go figure. Fritleyfrisp (talk) 23:07, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree the text makes it clear that this is a warning, not a prophecy..."...and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened" (Jonah 3:10). Threatened makes it clear that it was conditional. I will erase it.--Jorfer (talk) 23:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
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