Talk:Bessus

Appropriate?

Is this appropriate? "Alexander ordered that Bessus should have it in the butt before his death."

Not clear

Bessus in many of the articles on wiki say he is native to bactria and died there. Also if He is from bactrian so it makes him afghan. It is still not known taht if Achmaneind ever did go to what is now afghanistan and central asia and if he did was there for very brief. 24.5.197.224 03:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)Pashtun786

No reason to think he was from Bactria - he was related to the Persian royal house, after all. dougweller (talk) 14:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Afghan is another name for pashtuns. Pashtuns were apstorals living on southern parts of Hindukush, far from Bactria and even civilization at that time.

That is NOT definitive evidene. Bessus was Bactrian and belonged to Bactria. Do you say Bessus came from Persia (i.e. land beyond the lut deserts), and was not Bactrian, and didn't speak Bactrian language? *confused*

I am saying that there is no evidence he was from Bactria. He was a member of the Persian Royal Family which is presumably why he was governor of Bactria. You will need a source that says he is from Bactria to make that change to the article. And please do not remove source edits as you just did, the edit says what was referenced (that he was a member of the royal family).

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bessus/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Gug01 (talk · contribs) 02:55, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	Yeah, no problems here!
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	Some edit-warring occurred in October 2021; last reversion occurred on November 8, 2021, less than a month ago, so I'll have to monitor the situation. (The November 8 reversion didn't use the "undo" button but was still a reversion; nicely, the editor marked it as such.) No further edit wars; the article's in the clear.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.

Hello, @HistoryofIran:! I'm Gug01 and will be reviewing your article on Bessus. Let's get started! Gug01 (talk) 03:00, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: The feedback I've laid below is just the very first pass on this article; it needs a lot of work, which I'm happy to work with you to do. However, I need to make sure you're willing to help. If I receive no response in 7 days (December 6), I will have to undertake a final assessment of the article as is.Gug01 (talk) 03:05, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: Congratulations on getting this article to GA! The quality and quantity improvements to this surprisingly sparsely-documented topic have been massive! Gug01 (talk) 19:40, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Review Round 1

Lead

"Bessus (also spelled Bessos; Old Persian: *Bayaçā; Ancient Greek: Βήσσος Bḗssos), also known by his throne name of Artaxerxes V (Old Persian: 𐎠𐎼𐎫𐎧𐏁𐏂𐎠 Artaxšaçāʰ; Ancient Greek: Ἀρταξέρξης Artaxérxēs; died summer 329 BC)" - Why is Bessus' Old Persian name reconstructed, rather than original, and without Old Persian characters?

"Persian satrap of the eastern Achaemenid satrapy of Bactria" - satrap and satrapy are redundant. Consider: "Achaemenid Persian satrap of Bactria"

Bessus' usurpation of Darius III, as well as his usurpation's broader geopolitical aftermath (including after his assassination), should be mentioned in the lead. Gug01 (talk) 03:00, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't think I understand - that was his name in Old Persian. Also, unfortunately I couldn't find the Old Persian characters. I just created a name section btw.

Yeah, I was a bit unclear. I was wondering why there weren't Old Persian characters for both names.Gug01 (talk) 22:50, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

I would personally prefer not use 'satrap' (governor) and 'satrapy' (province) after each other either, but respectfully I feel like this best version. I think it's important to mention that Bactria lay in the east, and present it as 'Achaemenid Empire' instead of simply 'Achaemenid'.

Done (I think?).

--HistoryofIran (talk) 23:56, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Career

"During the reign of the King of Kings Darius III (r. 336–330 BC), Bessus was made the satrap of Bactria, an important satrapy in the eastern part of the empire" -> rewrite passive to active voice. Also, in what year was he appointed Bactrian satrap?

"Bactria, which had been under Achaemenid rule since 545–540 BC, was a prosperous country with a large populace.[3]" - It's a satrapy, not a country. "Country" implies it's totally autonomous, the way something like the US or France is, rather than a subprovince of another empire. Also, "prosperous" "with a large populace" is extremely vague; we need more evidence and specifics here.

"since 545–540 BC" - Rule should start over one year, perhaps rewrite to "since 540 BC"

"Alexander the Great (r. 336–323 BC) " - no need to give Alexander's years of reigning twice

"Bessus was able to exert his rule over Sogdia to the north, and regions that bordered India" - What about the satraps of Sogdia and those regions? Add some more evidence of Bessus' control - ex. tax policy, levying troops from those regions, something like that, etc.

"they arrested Darius III" - they killed Darius III, didn't they? Those are two very different verbs Gug01 (talk) 03:13, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, but I think it will be a bit awkward sounding if I rewrite it to active voice, at the least with what I can come up with it. We don't know which year unfortunately - Achaemenid history is very obscure.

Changed to area. I added a little bit more, but the source doesn't say anymore than that. I don't think we should explain it too much either, as this article is about Bessus.

I agree. Gug01 (talk) 15:59, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

I assume you mean 545? That would be inaccurate, since it might not have been that year. The source itself says between 545-540 BC.

I see; alright.

I haven't. The lede is supposed to be a summary of the body.

That is fair. If the article doesn't already mention Bessus' broader geopolitical effects, then it should. Gug01 (talk) 15:59, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

The administrators of Sogdia are mentioned, which was Spitamenes and Oxyartes. Unfortunately I couldn't find anything else.

They did, but that is mentioned down below.

That is now mentioned, good work here!

--HistoryofIran (talk) 11:03, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Images

I like the administrative list of supplies; it's such a cool image! Also, are there really no portraits, paintings, etc. of Bessus, or of Bessus killing Darius III, or of Alexander killing Bessus? I doubt there would be images from the time period, but there should be images from later time periods which could still liven up the article with more illustration, so you should add those. Gug01 (talk) 16:06, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

On the issue of copyright, the administrative list image has no problems. The map image, however, doesn't have full copyright justification. It was created in 1923, 98 years ago, which is outside copyright protections in most countries but not in Mexico and perhaps not in the US (US copyright law is fiendishly complex). So that will have to be resolved for the article to use the image (and I think the image is a useful one). Copyright is important, after all. Gug01 (talk) 16:10, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Well, there is this [1], but far from the prettiest. I have removed the map. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:52, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Reign

@HistoryofIran: Prose

Change "Sogdia, which was administered by officers such as Spitamenes and Oxyartes;" -> "Sogdia, which was administered by Spitamenes and Oxyartes" unless there were many bureaucrats co-administering Sogdia

Yup, there were more administrators. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:57, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

"seemingly the remnants of the troops" -> "likely the remnants of the troops"

Sorry, but those are not the same. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:57, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

"receiving the news that" -> "receiving news that"

"Bessus was soon arrested by his own officers, which included Spitamenes, Dataphernes, and Catanes, who handed him over to the Macedonians." - You seem to like tacking on clauses beginning with "who" at the beginning of many sentences ... while it's fine once or twice, it's starting to make the prose repetitive. Consider rewriting. Also consider using active over passive voice.

Err.. not sure how to change that sentence. However, I did change another "who" sentence to avoid repetition. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:58, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Good enough; works for me! Gug01 (talk) 19:36, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

"He was finally sent to Ecbatana, where he was executed" - who executed him? Use active voice.

Content

"Instead of making a stand, Bessus fled into Sogdia by crossing the Oxus, thus losing the support of many of the Bactrians." - Do we have any indication why Bessus chose not to make a stand?

"Nabarzanes surrendered to Alexander and was pardoned with the help of Bagoas." - Why did he surrender?

In general, it would be nice to give more context in this section as to where Bessus and Alexander, his main antagonist, are positioned. It's probably OK to have a little redundance with the Alexander the Great article.

"Satibarzanes was defeated and killed by the Macedonian forces in 329 BC, with Bessus unable to help him." - Do we know why Bessus couldn't help Satibarzanes, especially since, all things considered, Aria wasn't that far from Bactria?

Changed it to "before Bessus was able to help him." However it doesn't mention why Bessus wasn't able to help him faster. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:01, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Also, could you link to the battle where Macedonians defeated Satibarzanes? Gug01 (talk) 22:50, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

The battle isn't in Wikipedia. Satibarzanes was killed in his satrapy. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:01, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

References

The following sources are not cited in the bibliography and don't seem to be about Bessus at all:

Hanaway, William L. (1994). "Dārāb-nāma". Encyclopædia Iranica, online edition, Vol. VII, Fasc. 1. New York. pp. 8–9.

Removed it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:59, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Tafazzoli, Ahmad (1994). "Dārā(b) (1)". Encyclopædia Iranica, online edition, Vol. VII, Fasc. 1. New York. pp. 1–2.

Moved to further reading. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:59, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

If they're important to the article, please explain why; otherwise, delete them from the bibliography. All sources in the bibliography should be cited in the article or supplementary material directly about Bessus.Gug01 (talk) 23:00, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Reference 19 is as follows: " Heckel 2020, pp. 167–168 (see also note 19)." It mentions "note 19," but there is no note 19. Please fix. Gug01 (talk) 23:00, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

I added the wrong pages. Fixed now. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:08, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

In Persian Literature

No comments here! Gug01 (talk) 23:00, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

@Gug01: Thoughts on the article now? --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:10, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

You've made a lot of great improvements to the article! Gug01 (talk) 19:36, 18 December 2021 (UTC)