Talk:Berber languages/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Proposed move

In deference to the controversy over whether Berber is a WP:NPOV term, considering its connotations in being associated with "barbarian" as well as the emergence of a stronger Amazigh identity (especially during the Arab Spring, with the language now being official in Morocco and used by organs of the partially recognized National Transitional Council in Libya), I suggest this article be moved to either Tamazight or Amazigh languages (a WP:COMMON term used by Al Jazeera, Foreign Policy, Deutsche Welle, BBC News, and others). Support for this position comes from Noah Feldman, who notes that the "preferred term today is Amazigh" for the so-called Berber people, and comments I've seen here and elsewhere on Wikipedia seem to bear this out. So, I thought I would bring this name change (in keeping with Wikipedia's policy of neutrality) proposal up for discussion. -Kudzu1 (talk) 20:44, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia article names are driven by the dictates of WP:COMMONNAME. "Berber" is by a huge margin the most common name of this language group in English. No other name is even close. Thus, Wikipedia's policies dictate that this article remain right here at "Berber" where it is. English speakers will be looking for "Berber", so that is where this article should stay. --Taivo (talk) 21:16, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. In addition, 'Tamazight' is also used to refer to the Central Atlas Tamazight language, and this could potentially cause a lot of confusion. Mo-Al (talk) 23:57, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Kudzu1, Ethnologue uses Amazigh Languages, media and government of Morocco & Algeria do the same. Even EB uses Amazigh. [1]. I'm sure that Berber is more popular All-time. But if you do a search restricted to the last two decade I bet Amazigh is more common and WP recommends using current rather than older names.

Anyway this title will ultimately change, since it is pejorative in origin. Even what is called the "Maghreb" today was called "Barbary coast" for a long long time.

Tachfin (talk) 20:25, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Ethnologue does not use "Amazigh", it uses Berber. Within linguistic circles, "Berber" is prohibitively the most common English usage. None of the other terms are even close to Berber as the common name of this language group. I oppose any move as it would violate WP:COMMONNAME. EB is only one source, what do all the other encyclopedias use? So far, the evidence that either of you have presented for moving this article is paper thin. No solid evidence, no move. --Taivo (talk) 20:50, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

You're right about Ethnologue, I got mixed up and spoke too quickly. We're only discussing the possibility of a move and of course it wouldn't be done without hardcore argumentation and evidence.

Regards, Tachfin (talk) 21:07, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi,

I personally approve of renaming the article to Tamazight languages, the term Berber can be confusing and very derogatory. Indeed the term "Berber" has been more popular but so was another derogatory word used for Americans of African ancestry. Sincere apologies for the example but it seems rather necessary to point it out. Moreover as the term "Barbarian" and "Berber" are very close in Arabic and other languages and may still be used as derogatory terms to describe North Africans.

Regards

E3 (talk) 12:47, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello Wikipedians, since this conversation in 2013 the common name in linguistics has definitely shifted to Amazigh languages as awareness has grown and the Amazigh language movement has developed. It is now co-official in several countries as 'Amazigh' rather than 'Berber'. Although I respect that 5 years ago Berber may have still been more prevalent (even if offensive), now in 2018 I think there is not a strong case to support maintaining this anachronistic (and offensive) name. I propose we move the article to Amazigh languages! Paolorausch (talk) 21:30, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

The criteria to meet is commonname as verified by all reliable sources, not just to those in the linguistic world. I might be behind the times, but I think 'Berber' is still the term most widely used and understood. Being offensive to some is not a valid reason for changing it. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 22:20, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Do we know what policies are relevant here? I suspect that there is some prior cases of similar situations. I can think of quite a few times when the most common thing for something was very inappropriate for Wikipedia. There must be some guidance we can gleam!Paolorausch (talk) 05:24, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Moving to Amazigh languages to reflect current norms

Hello Wikipedians, since this conversation in 2013 the common name has definitely shifted to Amazigh languages as awareness has grown and the Amazigh language movement has developed. It is now co-official in several countries as 'Amazigh' rather than 'Berber'. It has a new standard form, and other areas of Wikipedia have already adopted the endonym. Although I respect that 5 years ago Berber may have still been more prevalent (even if offensive), now in 2018 I think there is not a strong case to support maintaining this anachronistic (and offensive) name. I propose we move the article to Amazigh languages! Anyone disagree?Paolorausch (talk) 23:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC) Example, one ISO code uses Standard Moroccan Tamazight https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/zgh — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paolorausch (talk • contribs) 23:10, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Agree In support of moving the article to Amazigh languages. Sambasoccer27 (talk) 00:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Berbers which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 15:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Berber should be no more used. We should use Amazigh/Tamazight

Berber was originally comes from roman word 'barbaros'. and it comes to other languages due to translating from roman works. but the translators maintained the word 'Berber'. But we as amazigh people. we don't want to be known as Berbers. or Berber speakers. because we are Imazighen whom speak Amazigh. It's a part of our identity to be known as Imazighen not berbers. So we need to look again in the term of 'Berber' in order to modify it as long as we "Imazighen" don't want to admit the term 'Berber'

Berbers = Imazighen / Amazigh people. Berber language = Tamazight / Amazigh language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ipshel (talk • contribs) 17:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

English Pronunciation of Tamazight

Does anyone have a source for the pronunciation of the term "Tamazight" in English? Wiktionary currently gives a form with the last syllable as /zaɪt/ which seems implausible, as if it were a borrowing into Middle English. As a native English speaker though, I can't say it's cropped up enough in speech for me to have some sense of what the norm is, and it's entirely possible that my /zɪɣt/ or /zɪgd/ (depending on how much I'm anglicising) is a weird spelling pronunciation from lack of exposure to it in speech Tristanjlroberts (talk) 20:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

This isn't a full answer but my understanding is that the spelling is a transliteration meant to represent a native pronunciation close to /tamazɪɣt/. I have doubts whether there's any standard English pronunciation since it's not a common English word ("Berber" has been the Western designation for a long time). I've had a quick look but couldn't find anything that would suggest a clear answer to that specifically. Will keep an eye out though. R Prazeres (talk) 03:13, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

@Tristanjlroberts and R Prazeres: The pronunciation with a diphthong is attested here. Lexico only has Amazigh, with /-iːk/ for -igh. –Austronesier (talk) 07:46, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Grammar and phonology

I would like to point out that on 17:20, 7 November 2020, Phonology and Grammar was deleted for referring to a singular "Berber language" and not Berber Languages like the name of this article, and not citing any sources. I'm not complaining about that, I'm casting a raised eyebrow at the grammar being RE-written, translated from the German Wikipedia, and once again referring to a singular "Berber language"Jimydog000 (talk) 10:17, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

A typological characterization of a language family of course can include an overarching discussion of phonology and grammar of the individual languages, pointing out both commonalities and internal diversity. That's what the best scholars do in the best sources, like Kossmann in his chapter "Berber" in Frayzyngier & Shay (2012), The Afroasiatic Languages, Cambridge University Press. As long as it's sourced and doesn't create the misleading impression of a single "Berber language" (which is not the case here), everything is fine. –Austronesier (talk) 12:43, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

I disagree that everything is fine, as the original grammar and phonology cited some sources. And you should of seen the atrocity that was the phoneme table before I fixed it. I would also like to echo the other discussions on this talk page and reccomend a seperate article called Tamazight (Berber) be created. Jimydog000 (talk) 21:11, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Recent changes

@Blueshiftofdeath: I had to revert your recent changes because: 1) the article is about the "Berber languages" (there are many of them). 2) Tamazight is an invented language that some countries have developed independently of one another. M.Bitton (talk) 16:17, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Hmm, but the sources I was looking at referred to "Tamazight" interchangeably with "Berber languages" (both referring to the general group of languages spoken by several communities)? I see many different publications about "Tamazight" which specify which particular language they're talking about. Additionally, even the "Berber" encyclopedia etc. pages elsewhere refer to it as "Tamazight" in parentheses afterwards. Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 16:23, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

They are not the same thing. Tamazight is used in Algeria and Morocco to refer to the invented official Berber languages. M.Bitton (talk) 16:27, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Oxford University Press disagrees (10.1093/obo/9780199772810-0219), as does Cambridge University Press (https://www.jstor.org/stable/26351981), which I cited in my edit. See also Map 10 in "Words and Worlds: World Languages Review" (ISBN 9781853598272). A cursory search also shows "Tamazight" and "Berber language" used interchangeably outside Morocco and Algeria, for example the BBC article "Libya's GNC Speaker says new constitution should recognize Berber language".

Meanwhile, I don't see any reliable/recent sources claiming "Tamazight" and "Berber language" are distinct. Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 16:50, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

A cursory search also shows "Tamazight" and "Berber language" You're missing the point. Yes, Tamazight (a standardized version) is theoretically a Berber language that is official in Algeria and Morocco, but it doesn't change the fact that there are many Berber languages (notice the plural) that are spoken in the Maghreb (our primary topic). M.Bitton (talk) 17:14, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

The fact that "Tamazight" is grammatically singular doesn't mean it refers to one language. "Chinese" refers to multiple languages as well.

The sources I linked unambiguously use "Tamazight" to refer to a group of many languages spoken throughout North Africa. Quote from the first source from Oxford University Press, "Berber (aka Tamazight) is a branch of the Afro-Asiatic language phylum and counts about forty languages, which entirely cover North Africa, stretching from Morocco to Egypt, as well as from the Mediterranean Sea to the Sahara and the northern and western Sahel, including Mali, Niger, and Burkina Faso." This clearly supports my edit over the previous version of the page. Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 17:22, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

1) It does refer to two different standardized languages that are official in Algeria and Morocco (that's a fact that needs to be accounted for). 2) There is no reason to remove "Berber languages" from the beginning of the first sentence. M.Bitton (talk) 17:25, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

1) If "Tamazight" is used in Algeria to refer to one specific language, that could be added as a note/clarification (probably in Terminology?). I don't think "Tamazight" being used in some contexts to refer to a single specific language means that it can't be put in the first sentence, when it is broadly (I would argue much more commonly) used to refer to the same thing as "Berber languages". (Similarly, "Chinese" is often used to refer to Mandarin Chinese specifically, but the "Chinese language" page still leads with just "Chinese".)

2) I moved "Tamazight" to the beginning of the sentence so that "(/ˌæməˈziːk/ AM-ə-ZEEK; Berber name: Tamaziɣt, Tamazight, Thamazight; Neo-Tifinagh: ⵜⴰⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖⵜ, Tuareg Tifinagh: ⵜⵎⵣⵗⵜ, pronounced [tæmæˈzɪɣt, θæmæˈzɪɣθ])" could be moved directly after it. I think this is far more readable, because the connection between "Tamazight" and "Berber name: Tamaziɣt, Tamazight, Thamazight" is way clearer than between that and "Berber languages" or "Amazigh languages". Also, it splits up the sentence less (so that "Berber languages or Amazigh languages" isn't separated from "are a branch of the Afroasiatic language family" in the sentence). This is also in line with other pages (like that for animal species and diseases like polio) where the most common name is not the first bolded one in the article. Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 17:38, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

The common name for the Berber languages is "Berber languages". Until that changes (I don't see why it should given the concerned list of languages and how clear and unambiguous it is), MOS:FIRST will apply. M.Bitton (talk) 17:42, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

MOS:FIRST refers to keeping the most common name in the first sentence. "Berber languages" was still in the first sentence in my edit. Following the examples in WP:COMMONNAME, the most common name does not have to be the first name used in the first sentence. In this case, the first sentence is more readable with "Berber languages" used second for the reasons previously stated. Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 17:53, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be, but in this instance, it makes sense to have it the way it is. What you're alluding to is literally changing the article's title. If that's what you're after, then you're welcome to start a request for a page move and see what the others think. M.Bitton (talk) 17:58, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not after changing the article's title, since I'm not challenging that "Berber languages" is the most common name. The two points I'm insisting on are:

1) "Tamazigh" should appear as a bolded name somewhere in the first sentence

2) The current structure of the first sentence is hard to read.

An alternate proposal I think would also be acceptable would be something like:

The Berber languages (/ˌæməˈziːk/ AM-ə-ZEEK; Berber name: Tamaziɣt, Tamazight, Thamazight; Neo-Tifinagh: ⵜⴰⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖⵜ, Tuareg Tifinagh: ⵜⵎⵣⵗⵜ, pronounced [tæmæˈzɪɣt, θæmæˈzɪɣθ]), also known as the Amazigh languages or Tamazigh, are a branch of the Afroasiatic language family. Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 18:07, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I suggest leaving the Tamazight transcription for the word Tamazight. Something like:

The Berber languages, also known as the Amazigh languages or Tamazight (/ˌæməˈziːk/ AM-ə-ZEEK; Berber name: Tamaziɣt, Tamazight, Thamazight; Neo-Tifinagh: ⵜⴰⵎⴰⵣⵉⵖⵜ, Tuareg Tifinagh: ⵜⵎⵣⵗⵜ, pronounced [tæmæˈzɪɣt, θæmæˈzɪɣθ]), are a branch of the Afroasiatic language family.

18:12, 14 December 2022 (UTC) M.Bitton (talk) 18:12, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Well, the reason I didn't do that in my initial edit is because I think that it's hard to read having this huge transcription in between the subject and verb of the sentence. On my (fairly wide) screen there's literally a full line between the subject ("The Berber languages, also known as the Amazigh languages or Tamazight") and the verb ("are a branch of the Afroasiatic language family"). That was my reasoning for moving "Tamazigh" to the beginning of the line, so that there was this easier to read, continuous strip: "also called the Berber languages or Amazigh languages, are a branch of the Afroasiatic language family." Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 18:17, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

The transcription (meaningless to everyone who's not accustomed to the language) doesn't have to be there. We can simply add it as a note to the Tamazight word. M.Bitton (talk) 18:25, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

That sounds good to me :-) . Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 18:28, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 18:48, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

@Blueshiftofdeath: the section about the Arabization of the administration is still misleading as it concerns the written languages (Arabic and French). Also, the source "Obtaining Jurisdiction over States in Bankruptcy Proceedings after Seminole Tribe" doesn't seem to mention what is attributed to it and nor does Reem Bassiouney's book (chapter 5). M.Bitton (talk) 17:40, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, sometimes the citation auto-generation tool messes up and I don't notice (I've been having some technical difficulties recently), I didn't mean to cite that source.

I found another source ("Identity crisis." The Economist, vol. 348, no. 8076, 11 July 1998, p. 69. Gale Academic OneFile) which states:

"Protests have erupted in Algeria over a law making Arabic Algeria's only official language for public life. The law, in force from Jul 5 1998, led to sackings of state shops in Kabylia, a Berber speaking region. Many Kabyles also use French in business, with Arabic as their third language. Supporters of the law see the protests as favoring French domination and are concerned that anti-Arab feeling may be linked to Berber opposition to the law. There are doubts as to the enforcement of the law and whether it will become a weapon used to marginalize factions in Algeria's establishment."

What do you think about adding in that? Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 17:48, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Re: Reem Bassiouney's book, I was referencing these sections:

"According to Mostari (2004), after independence Algeria was committed to the policy of Arabisation. Arabisation was encouraged by Algerian nationalists and political leaders who were trying to carve a niche for themselves amidst a French-speaking elite (Mostari 2004: 26). [...] During the following years, from 1979 onward, a large part of cultural life was Arabised, including primary and secondary education and many humanities faculties at universities. Broadcasts on radio, television stations, public signs and the judicial system were Arabised as well."

"In 1991 a tough law stated that Algeria would be completely Arabised by 1997, and a law was issued stating that anyone who signed a document written in any language other than Arabic would pay a fine of about 40 to 200 dollars (Benrabah 2005: 425)."

"Taleb Ibrahimi, who was minister of education in 1967, informally allowed Moulad Mammeri, a Berber/Kabylian writer and academic, to restore the chair of Berber studies at Algeirs University. However, this was not enough recognition of the Berbers’ linguistic rights, which were ignored after independence. Berbers began a linguistic resistance movement by banning their children from speaking (colloquial) Arabic at home and making a point of speaking French in shops, cafés and restaurants (cf. Kahlouche 2004: 106; Mahé 2001: 471). For the Berbers, SA was unable to deliver a democratic secular ideal. Berbers demanded recognition and freedom of expression. More unrest broke out in 1988, which was again supressed by the government (Tigrizi 2004)."

"In 2003 Tamazight was declared a national language. In 2004 the president described it as a dividing factor (Lewis 2004). He then declared openly in 2005 that there would be only one official language and not two. Tamazight was adopted as a national language by the National Assembly on 8 April 2003 (Benrabah 2007a). In 2004 Abderrazak Dourari became head of the institute for the planning of Tamazight. From 2005 onwards, Tamazight has been introduced in the first three years in middle school for three hours a week (Benrabah 2007b: 77)" Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 18:00, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

No worries. As I stated previously, the 1998 law (which was aimed at countering the French language) only concerned the written languages (Berber was never one of them and Reem Bassiouney doesn't link the two). I wouldn't use the economist for a scholarly subject that is covered in multiple RS (their claim that Arabic is the Kabyle's third language is plain stupid). M.Bitton (talk) 19:32, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

That's fair. I do think though that right now it's a odd there's no background as to how there was unrest due to the lack of recognition of Algeria's Berber language (which is why it was added as a national language in response to the riots), which was closely related to Arabisation following Algerian independence. So I would really like some line about that, which even in just the Reem Bassiouney source there's enough support to add.

Here's another quote from the source I missed earlier: "There was a stronger than expected backlash after independence from the Berber-speaking tribes, who, as we have said, make up about 25 per cent of the population. They began an armed struggle against the authorities in 1962—3 after forming the Socialist Forces Front (FFS), which was opposed to Arabisation policies in Algeria (Mahé 2001: 442)." (This quote immediately precedes the one about Taleb Ibrahimi.)

Given this plus the previous quotes, how about something like:

"After gaining independence from France in 1962, Algeria committed to a policy of Arabisation, which was met with armed opposition by some Berber tribes. After 1979, Arabisation policies encompassed public education, broadcasting, and the judiciary system. While directed towards the removal of French as an official language, these policies led to dissatisfaction and unrest amongst Tamazight speakers, who made up about one quarter of the population."

(I think this avoids implying that policies surrounding writing were the main cause of unrest.) Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 23:50, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Except that the FFS uprising was in opposition to the one party system (its leader was not a Berberist by any means). I can supply the RS if you want to learn more about it. M.Bitton (talk) 00:17, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes I'd love to read more about it! Thanks in advance :-) .

In the mean time, I'll just take you at your word for it, so how about:

"After gaining independence from France in 1962, Algeria committed to a policy of Arabisation, which, after 1979, encompassed public education, broadcasting, and the judiciary system. While directed towards the removal of French as an official language, these policies led to dissatisfaction and unrest amongst Tamazight speakers, who made up about one quarter of the population." Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 00:32, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

That looks good to me, except that I would replace Tamazight with Berber (the common name + Tamazight refers to the standard language that nobody speaks). As promised, here are a couple of sources ([2][3]) that will hopefully be of help to you. M.Bitton (talk) 00:49, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Awesome, will add that in now! And thank you for the links. It'll probably be a while until I get to it, but I really want to read up on Berberism in the near future so I can go through the page and cite/clarify what I can, so the reading material is greatly appreciated. Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 01:14, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Subclassification and Infobox

I noticed that in the subclassification section, no single subclassification system is given as the most prominent, and no consensus is given on what "Eastern Berber" refers to; but the infobox for the page gives the impression that there is a general consensus on a certain subclassification system, as displayed on the map, and "Eastern Berber" lists "Siwi, Nafusi, Sokna, Ghadamès, Awjila" as its languages with no qualification. Have there perhaps been developments in classifying Berber languages that is not reflected in the subclassification subsection, or does the infobox not reliably reflect the current citeable understanding of Berber languages? Blueshiftofdeath (talk) 03:58, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Infobox: total number of speakers

Encyclopædia Universalis, the French-language Britannica writes: On ne dispose pas de statistiques sûres pour évaluer le nombre des berbérophones : les estimations vont de treize à trente millions ; un total de vingt ou vingt-cinq millions paraît admissible (Berbères : la langue. Authors are: Salem Chaker, Lionel Galand, and Paulette Galand-Pernet. All academics, linguists, experts in the field.

I added this range to the infobox, I don't understand why you reverted @M.Bitton claiming "Please have some respect for those who are discussing the subject". Indeed, this range of 13–30 is also close to what is already in the rest of the article as the lowest recent estimates we currently have are 7.5m in Morocco, 4.5m in Algeria, and ~1m elsewhere (total = 13m) while the highest estimates we have are 13.8m in Morocco, 8.8m in Algeria, and 3.6m elsewhere (total = 26m). So it's a good summary of the sources we list, and it's backed by a RS. The note "Estimating the number of Berber speakers is very difficult and figures are often contested." seems also useful to explain why there's such a huge range.

What should we do? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:29, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

The Infobox is meant to summarize (and not supplant) the key facts that appear in the article. Since the latter is being discussed, we wait until it's finished before creating the Infobox. M.Bitton (talk) 16:50, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

You're right. Then, what about adding in the article, in Berber_languages#Population (before the breakdown by country): "Estimating the number of Berber speakers is very difficult and figures are often contested. Estimates range from 13 to 30 million worldwide depending on the sources." a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:58, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

You're still trying to put the cart before the horse. I suggest we finish the breakdown by country first (Algeria is almost done, Morocco's next I guess). M.Bitton (talk) 17:03, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

I think we could do both in parallel, but okay to wait. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 17:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)