Talk:Beecher's Handmade Cheese

Beecher's Handmade Cheese has been listed as one of the Agriculture, food and drink good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
September 11, 2008	Good article nominee	Listed
October 6, 2008	Peer review	Reviewed
October 6, 2008	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on September 12, 2008. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Beecher's Handmade Cheese* is an artisan cheese maker in Seattle, Washington that is known for mixing combinations of cheese cultures?*
Current status: Good article

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United States: Washington / Seattle Low‑importance

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Beecher's Handmade Cheese/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

GA review (see here for criteria)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS):
Seattle, Washington, United States (don't forget to mention the country). 500,000 pounds need converting to metric (use {{convert}}). The two sentences concerning macaroni and cheese should avoid being wikilinked twice (and preferably rewritten to not repeat "macaroni and cheese" so close to each other). Include the last stray sentence on macaroni and cheese in the rest of the paragraph, and preferably include it in the lead. In the infobox, "type" is designed for type of entity (private company, public company, cooperative etc), not industry, that has its own line. The entity name (inc., ltd. etc) should be included in the infobox title (unless the company doesn't have one of course). And get rid of that stub template at the bottom—the article is not a stub.
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
Ref 2 is dead; ref 3 links wrong (the same as ref 1).
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:
A few small things that need fixing, so I am putting on hold. Whence fixed, it will pass without problems. Arsenikk ^(talk) 15:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I'll just need a day or two. rootology (C)(T) 17:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I think I've got all your concerns addressed now. How does it look? I searched around as well, for a proper entity name. They don't appear to have one. rootology (C)(T) 19:32, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great. This is now a good article; congratulations! Arsenikk ^(talk) 22:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! :) rootology (C)(T) 22:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA

How did this get GA within days of being created? Smells rotten. The prose is not good, isn't it supposed to be well written? I saw a run-on sentence and incorrectly used word in the first section alone. Give me a break. --208.82.225.232 (talk) 10:57, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's absolutely no need to be hostile, articles are never "done". Nothing was rotten, it was ran through the normal review process any article is--look right above. Where are you seeing these mistakes (you can fix them, as well!). rootology (C)(T) 13:08, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cheddar Cheese

The term Cheddar cheese should ideally only refer to a cheese made in Cheddar, or at least A cheese made in SW England. I feel this is particularly important in an article about an "Artisan" cheese. Markb (talk) 12:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is the tradition, historically, but unfortunately we've completely coopted the phrase and usage of the term cheddar at this point here in the USA... rootology (C)(T) 13:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The term Cheddar cheese is now a generic term (as described in the Cheddar article) and it is therefor correctly used in the article. Arsenikk ^(talk) 15:39, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It may well be a generic term, but it's usage is wildly abused. I was just hoping that a US article about an artisan product would have some sympathy towards protection of a standard; but clearly commercial matters take precedence as ever on here. 21:48, 12 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markb (talk • contribs)

Quote from Cheddar cheese "The name 'Cheddar cheese' has become widely used internationally, and does not currently have a protected designation of origin (PDO). However, the European Union recognises West Country Farmhouse Cheddar as a PDO. Source: "EU Protected Food Names Scheme - UK registered names". defra." Furthermore PDOs are not valid in the United States—because the US has a different definition of a generic term than the EU. Arsenikk ^(talk) 22:19, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Expansion sources

More at User:Rootology/Sandbox 5 for those wanting to take a crack at it, I'm going to be short on time the next couple days. rootology (C)(T) 20:03, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Peer review

I put this up for peer review here. rootology (C)(T) 16:37, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Copy edit in progress

I'm trying a copyedit at Rootology's request. Mostly I'll "be bold" but some points see worth clarifying; I'll enumerate them here as I go. - Jmabel | Talk 03:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why do we keep repeating "Beecher's Handmade Cheese" in full? It seems to me that after the first mention, most could just say "Beecher's". Any problem with that? - Jmabel | Talk 03:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What (if anything) does "with a desire to drive local Washington artisan cheese production" mean? In particular, the word "drive" is very unclear here. - Jmabel | Talk 03:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, its a little clearer the second time it's used (outside the lead): "he opened his business in part to drive business in the area and encourage more cheese business to grow." In both cases, it seems to me it would be clearer to reword to use the verb "encourage" rather than "drive". Any problem with that? - Jmabel | Talk 03:29, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How can we cite a 2006 article for "Currently, they are in the process..."? 2006 is certainly not "current". - Jmabel | Talk 03:30, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Several similar issues, I won't enumerate. Take a look for things that claim to be "current" and are cited from 2006. Even if the citation on something likely to change is current, it should then say "as of 2008". - Jmabel | Talk 04:20, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"From each farm, all the milk supplied to Beecher's Handmade Cheese will be from the same herd": I find this confusing. This is in contrast to what? What does it mean to have different herds on the same farm? (Not my field - so to speak - at all, but this should be written in a way I would understand.) And why the future tense ("will be")? - Jmabel | Talk 03:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"pH balance and levels": what is the "level", distinct from the "balance"? - Jmabel | Talk 03:53, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"has been described as the best in the entire region" by whom? - Jmabel | Talk 04:23, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"reviews described as 'rave'": described by whom? - Jmabel | Talk 04:49, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I notice "artisan" has been used as an adjective. I'd normally use "artisanal". As a result, I may have been inconsistent on that, you should check and get it consistent (or at least following some rule, e.g. "artisan cheese" vs. "artisanal methods"). - Jmabel | Talk 05:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Replies... and I know some of my wording is a bit tortured on the first pass. I edit too fast.

I wasn't sure about how it should work for the Manual of Style, so I just did it long form for each, for now. I figured it could be just mass-replaced later.
- Should be no problem with MoS. It's like calling a person by his or her last name, or using an acronym or initialism. The way it's written now reads like a press release. I leave this one to you to fix. - Jmabel | Talk 05:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It was based on the passage in the source, "'We hope that our being so visual will attract local cheesemakers and provide an avenue for them to sell their cheese,' he says." Like I said, just a first draft. I think I was thinking to drive as in to propel or push. Simple wording would be better (seriously, anything that sounds like it could be from a noir novel by me--nuke it. I used to drive editors berserk doing papers and journalism class or team research projects, since I'd bring in pages of research that connected the dots but needed a ton of grammar repair some days).
- I'll reword. - Jmabel | Talk 04:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
2006... yeah, that was boneheaded wording.
Let me reread that bit about the herds, and the sources, after I wrap up what I had left on my pending FA. That bit makes sense to me (having read the sources so many times) but the wording I used is too confusing as is.
The ph bit was mentioned in the Stewart video only in passing, but I wanted to use it as it seemed relevant with Sinko being a mircrobiologist. That was literally as described in the video, unfortunately... do you think it should go?

rootology (C)(T) 04:00, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

pH phrase: if we don't know what it means, then it's not much use, is it? - Jmabel | Talk 04:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So...

So, I've made a pass through it. I think I've either cleaned up or noted (above) all the copyediting issues. You say you are shooting for FA. I think the article as it stands is a bit promo-ish for that. Has there never been a single bad (or even mixed) review of anything Dammeier or the company have done? Also, a bit more context would be good. Some background on the region's (and the Market's) artisanal traditions would be in order. So probably would be a mention of the degree to which there have been and are other dairy-based businesses in the Market. - Jmabel | Talk 05:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks so much... Let me go back through it tonight and (more likely) tomorrow. Maybe holding this off till we build up the Market page would be better, to get relevant related material that can work here from there?

As for negative reviews... nope. I've honestly yet to stumble across anything even "mixed". I know that sometimes people react to that negatively in and of itself at FAC, but sometimes there just isn't anything bad to say. If there was, I'd put it in, if it fit and made sense. I've Googled and local newspaper searched them till I was practically sick of cheese, and don't remember anything of the sort, unfortunately. rootology (C)(T) 05:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all help and tips. I just finished off a big batch of edits and repair/clean up, added a new lead, and I'm going to give it a crack on FAC in a few minutes. :) rootology (C)(T) 02:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question

In the first paragraph of the Foundation section, it says "Dammeier also owns the Seattle-based food services vendor Pasta & Co., and he is a major investor in Pyramid Breweries, Inc.; other members of his family have stakes in Pyramid as well." I feel this sentence is irrelevant to the subject, but would be appropriate in an article about Dammeier. Should it be removed? Cheers, Intothewoods29 (talk) 19:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, is the information on Molbak's relevant?

Also also, should the last sentence in 'Milk Supplies go somewhere else? It doesn't seem to have much to do with the flooding incident. :) Intothewoods29 (talk) 20:05, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! Thank you for helping! That bit on Dammeier's business ventures could probably go from here (I'm going to split him off to his own article when I have time--I have a decent list of sources that would cover just him alone). I'd included it as "color" and to highlight how much, from all the sources, he wasn't a cheese maker before all this. What do you think?

The Molbak's bit was added by someone else along the way, and I left it in since it seemed again like color. It can go if you think it should. I moved that milk sentence, it was, you're right, out of order. :(

Sorry it took so long to reply, I've been on and off since this and got caught up in a spree of image cleanup today and another FAC project and totally missed this on my watchlist. Sorry! rootology (C)(T) 05:49, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. I'll see what I can do about reading over the article some more when I have some spare time. Let's get this to FA! :) Intothewoods29 (talk) 15:42, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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