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Coordinates: 38°48′0″N 22°32′0″E / 38.80000°N 22.53333°E / 38.80000; 22.53333
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Greek for Allied

After the first mention of the "Allied Greeks" future mention should be "Greek" not "Allied" as in "Greek army". This is for two reasons. The first is that the common terms for the belligerents is Greek and Persian, if they are Greeks are "Allies" why is it the Persian army and not the "Imperial army" etc? But the major reason apart from one of common usage is a non neutral point of view introduced by the term Allies (with a capital A), this is traditionally the term used for the Allies of first and second World Wars, and for most English speaking people it carries connotations of "Us" against "Them". -- PBS (talk) 13:22, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Pyrrhic Victory?

I know that using television and movies is a bad resource, but it has often been instated (most notably in the film 300) that the Persians suffered heavily against the outnumbered Greeks. Is it right to call it this?--Valkyrie Red (talk) 00:56, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Look at the discussion just above on the desire by some to call it a decisive victory. Films are not in any way reliable sources for history, they are, after all, fictional accounts. So the answer is no, all we can do is report what reliable academic sources have to say - books and peer reviewed journals in this case. Dougweller (talk) 04:53, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

All right man, chill. Just asking a question is all.--Valkyrie Red (talk) 02:12, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

At least two sources - Tung, Douglas S.; Tung, Teresa K. (2010). 36 Stratagems Plus: Illustrated by International Cases. Trafford Publishing. p. 239. ISBN 1426928068. - and Marozzi, Justin (2008). The Way of Herodotus: Travels with the Man Who Invented History. Da Capo Press. p. 74. ISBN 0306816210. explicitly state that the outcome of the battle was a Persian pyrrhic victory. MinisterForBadTimes argues that, it is obviously not a Pyrrhic victory (look at the definition)..., that is obviously original research. There also appears to be no major discussions or consensus on this issue in the archives. If there are no reliable sources which state the battle was not a Pyrrhic victory, I see no reason which would not merit it not being included in the article. I will revert its exclusion per WP:Bold if there are no arguments which are based on reliable sources, not original research. Lt.Specht (talk) 18:56, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Your first "academic" source says only one sentence about this battle, and second is Herodotus' one - so, both unreliable. Please check discussion archives. --93.143.9.24 (talk) 19:31, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
The claim that the sources are unreliable is not justified. The second source is not Herodotus. The book is merely titled The Way of Herodotus: Travels with the Man Who Invented History, its author is Justin Marozzi. The first source is authored by Douglas S. Tung, a scholar and academic who has authored multiple historical books. Just because it does not elaborate much on the battle does nothing to its reliability. If you believe they are indeed somehow unreliable, I suggest you take the issue to WP:RSN. Throughout the archives there is only discussion relating to this which is simply original research and cites no sources (such as the Decisive Victory section above), and no clear consensus as well. The only sources which I believe have been posted so far relating to a type of victory are the ones which I have identified. Going on and on interpreting definitions of victory and making individual conclusions (Decisive Victory section above) is not academic in the least. Lt.Specht (talk) 20:14, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Firstly, if a reliable source told you to jump of a cliff, would you do it? Just because some authors assert that it is a Pyrrhic does not mean that it was a Pyrrhic victory. We are not slaves to the sources - Wikipedia editors are still allowed to apply critical reasoning when deciding what to write - we don't just have to copy the sources verbatim. If you look at what a Pyrrhic victory is, you will be able to see that the sources you mention are not really correct to call it a Pyrrhic victory. Indeed, even if 100 sources say that it is a Pyrrhic victory, that still doesn't make it one. Whatever the Persians' losses were, it was clearly only a fraction of their army. And they clearly went on with the invasion of Greece afterwards. This is not what happens after Pyrrhic victories.
Secondly, you can't make accusations of original research based on omission. The infobox does not say "Persian victory (not Pyrrhic)". It just says "Persian Victory". There is a hidden note in the text asking people not to change it to Pyrrhic Victory (which I notice you decided to ignore); but this is not in the article (or even on the discussion page), and is therefore scarcely promoting original research. Arguing that it is OR to omit something from an article would set a bad precedent; OR should only apply to statements that are actually positively made in the article.
Thirdly, does it actually matter? NO. It's just an infobox. It doesn't need to say anything other than "Persian victory". Every month an editor comes along and changes it in some way; it always gets changed back, because everyone can agree that it was a Persian victory, but most people disagree as to whether it was a decisive/pyrrhic/normal Persian victory. The consensus is clear; Persian victory is acceptable by all, and there is no need to add any more to the infobox.

 M.F.B.T.  Yes, Minister? 20:54, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

If infoboxs' don't need a more descriptive result, why do countless articles use Pyrrhic, Tactical, Strategic, etc.?
Re: Wikipedia editors are still allowed to apply critical reasoning when deciding what to write - we don't just have to copy the sources verbatim.... True, however, in this case we are dealing with just a simple two or three words. WP:OR states, The best practice is to write articles by researching the most reliable sources on the topic and summarizing what they say in your own words, with each statement in the article attributable to a source that makes that statement explicitly...In short, stick to the sources. In this case multiple sources explicitly state it was a pyrrhic victory. To say these sources are incorrect, one would need a source which makes the statement explicitly.
Re: If you look at what a Pyrrhic victory is, you will be able to see that the sources you mention are not really correct to call it a Pyrrhic victory. WP:OR also states, Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research. (in example, one reliable source defines a pyrrhic victory, the other details the events of the battle - Whatever the Persians' losses were, it was clearly only a fraction of their army. And they clearly went on with the invasion of Greece afterwards. This is not what happens after Pyrrhic victories. - you are joining these together to form a conclusion, which is not explicitly stated in any sources presented so far.
Indeed, the infobox does not say something like Persian victory (not Pyrrhic), however, justifying the exclusion of a pyrrhic victory, which is explicitly stated in mutliple sources, by using original research methods as explained above, is hardly acceptable. WP:V states, anything challenged or likely to be challenged, including all quotations, be attributed to a reliable source in the form of an inline citation, and that the source directly support the material in question., it is quite clear that the unsourced phrasing Persian victory has been challenged a magnitude times throughout the talk page, archives, and right now. Finally, I ignored the warning because of this reason, and also per WP:V, unsourced material may be challenged and removed. Incidentally, WP:V also states that The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. My inclusion of pyrrhic victory was supported by multiple reliable sources, it was removed and restored to the original, uncited phrasing, by yourself and the banned editor. Lt.Specht (talk) 22:05, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm not against your (last) change, so it be. BUT, you can not count commercial books which mention battle of Thermopylae in context of "Pyrrhic victory" (possibly confused with Heroic failure or Last stand) in one sentence; there is a huge list of bibliography in both Greco-Persian Wars and Battle of Thermopylae articles, and not even one states it was "Pyrrhic victory".
First of all, enough with the wiki-lawyering; I understand the principles of wikipedia, so you don't need to cite them back at me. I restored the words "Persian Victory". Are you seriously challenging the fact that it was, at some level, a Persian victory?? Has anyone actually challenged this "unsourced phrasing"? Or do they just keep trying to add words to it?? Do you really think I should list all the sources that call it a Persian Victory in the infobox? Or might it be better to discuss it in the article?? The question is not whether "Persian Victory" is wrong, the question is whether to add the word "Pyrrhic" (or "decisive", etc.).
You keep suggesting that "multiple sources" back-up your view. By which you mean "2". But there are a huge number of sources out there that do not call Thermopylae a Pyrrhic victory. I therefore feel that you are giving undue weight (WP:UNDUE, if we are really going to sit here citing wikipedia rules at each other) to what is basically a fringe view, presented in passing, in two books which are not specifically concerned with the Greco-Persian Wars. As you so fondly point out, "The best practice is to write articles by researching the most reliable sources on the topic". Is Tung's one sentence on Thermopylae really the most reliable source on the topic? Really????? Or are the full length academic works cited in the bibliography better sources?
As you also point out, to explicitly contradict your "multiple" sources, I would need to find a source that says the opposite. However, I can still remove the word "Pyrrhic" from the article, (without explicitly stating it was not a Pyrrhic victory), because the majority of academics do not call it a Pyrrhic victory. This is not synthesis; this is just appropriate use of the sources. As I said in the first place, just because two sources say one thing, that does not mean that they are correct; and nor does it does not mean that their views have to be incorporated into Wikipedia. That is essentially your argument: that because someone said it once, it must go into the article, otherwise we are somehow keeping the truth from our readers.
Ultimately it comes down to this; I can find lots of sources that don't call Thermopylae a Pyrrhic victory. You can find two that do. A quick google search [1] suggests that you will struggle to find many more sources (please don't bother pointing out that this is not a perfect tool). BUT, if you can find a full academic work on Thermopylae (or the Greco-Persian Wars in general) which calls it a Pyrrhic victory, then we can discuss this again.  M.F.B.T.  Yes, Minister? 07:33, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
I think the latest change is an excellent one as it creates a compromise for both parties and an end to a frequently debated topic. warrior4321 00:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)


Holland as a Source?

His book "Persian Fire" seems more like docudrama or fiction based off of real events than a reliable source for this article.75.68.34.98 (talk) 07:49, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

ancient monument

I'm finding a few 19th-century sources that seem to believe that the ruins of the ancient tomb or memorial to those who fell at Thermopylae had been located and were still viewable in their day. Can any of you who research this topic so diligently clarify? Is this one of those cases of overactive archaeological imagination during that era? The WP article says only that there are "several" monuments at the site, and that one is the modern one to the Thespians. The epigram supposedly by Simonides, by the way, is not universally held to be his work. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:38, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Ephialtes

I believe that the name 'Ephialtes' is still used in Greek to denote a traitor. Can anybody confirm this?Miletus (talk) 16:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Only in a poetic or metaphoric fashion (referring to the person). The noun "efialtes" means nightmare in modern Greek. Simanos (talk) 12:36, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Sources section

The whole section on sources needs to go, or be rewritten so that it's actually about the sources. At the moment it's just a defence of Herodotus's integrity, and belongs in his own article. It's all a bit too coatrackish for my liking. Totnesmartin (talk) 14:25, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the whole section, but I've removed the part that was just a commentary on Herodotus, not on his treatment of the Greco-Persian wars. Dougweller (talk) 15:47, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Revisionism

the pahlavi regime of iran was bribing many historians and researchers in order to fake the history in persians favore, while all of the original references contributed the nombers of persians over 1000000 and nombers of sparthans about 300 now some people say that it is not true! it is a shame, they also have created myths like cyrus's human rights!!! while all references had contributed cyrus as an bloody bastard! or they try to pretend persians as aryans!! and such a thing, why university of chicago is not leting any one approach those 30000 tablets and clues discovered about ancient persia? what are they afraid of? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.225.129.55 (talk) 11:07, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

The number of men in Persian army

Is there any better estimation for the number of men in Persian army available? The article currently reads: "The Persian army, alleged by the ancient sources to have numbered in the millions, arrived at the pass in late August or early September." This is nonsense, citation is needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.164.30.35 (talk) 20:09, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Please spare us you indignation. There are citations for the ancient and modern estimates. Get an account and stop being an anonymous IP if you really want to contribute instead of this flame-bait. Simanos (talk) 23:19, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Why don't you tone down the indignation? The question is not only valid, it's good. "Millions" is neither precise nor credible. /roger.duprat.copenhagen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.191.252.230 (talk) 19:37, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Anons: If "millions" is all the sources say, then that's all they say; Wikipedia doesn't try to add its own novel interpretations to the available facts. Simanos: No one has to register a permanent user account to make valid contributions or raise valid questions here. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 08:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Just a few comments

This is truly a great article. It's really well-written and homogeneous in style. I just have a few comments:

1. " * Maps of the region:[62][63] and * Image of the battlefield, from the east[64]"

This looks to me like garbage. It points to 3 links that point to 3 photos. The article might as well have photos inside the article then.

2. "The Greeks killed so many Medes that Xerxes is said to have started up three times off the seat from which he was watching the battle."

I think "Medes" should not be in the sentence, unless accompanied by "men of". Something sounds weird.

3. At the bottom of the box in the top right of the page of the article I read "Thermopylae – Artemisium – Salamis – Potidea – Olynthus – Plataea – Mycale". However, no references to Potidea or Olynthus appear in the article.

ICE77 (talk) 04:21, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

2. Concerning the Persian Wars, Medes (Μήδοι) and Persians (Πέρσαι) are synonyms. --Pagaeos (talk) 00:03, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
And 99.99% of our readers don't know that and never will. Encyclopedic writing never assumes topical familiarity much less expertise. That's what makes it an encyclopedia instead of an article in an academic specialist journal. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 08:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

An addition to the results?

I have heard somewhere (real credible source there) that the battle also a holding action so that the greeks could assemble a large enough force to fend off the persians and that this and the imortals being held off for a little bit at the ramsacking of athens gave the greeks enough time to form up. Thereby being an indirect victory for the spartians/athenians. Is there any validity in this line of thought? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.146.120.73 (talk) 04:12, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Date?

Unresolved
 – Inter-article contradiction has to be fixed.

The battle of Thermopylae supposedly took place in august or september 480 BC according to this page, 'The following year, however, saw a Greek army decisively defeat the Persians at the Battle of Plataea, thereby ending the Persian invasion.'

When you go to the Battle of Plateaea page however the date says 479 BC ?

If its the following year am i going crazy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.90.210 (talk) 11:09, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

479 follows 480, that's the way our calendar works. It only starts going up again at the second '1', ie countdown to 1 then start up again at 1, no year 0. Notice the way I avoid saying BCE or CE? Dougweller (talk) 13:16, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

This article needs to be source-synched with Leonidas I of Sparta, which gives, and sources, a very specific death date. Either the source in that article is authoritative, and one being cited here as casting doubt on the date is not, in which case this article needs fixing, or the one cited for Leonidas' death at his article is contradicted by other reliable sources and his death date is not as certain as that article makes it seem to be. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 08:18, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


I've made some small changes to the 'prelude' paragraph, which isn't very well-written. The expression 'molon labe' means "come and take them" and is unrelated to the famous retort about fighting in the shade (which is discussed here as fact, though it is probably legendary)- aside from this I fixed some typos and changed where the author had "Leonidus" instead of "Leonidas".

Leonidas's guilt?

Disregard
 – WP cannot answer this question, per WP:NOR.

Whilst not wishing to deny the gallantry of the defence of the pass, Leonidas became king of Sparta after a rather grubby conspiracy which saw the death of his father and older brother.

Considering his wish to fight and die at Thermopylae did he have some feelings of guilt about possibly being involved in the conspiracy?AT Kunene (talk) 09:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

We'll never know, and Wikipedia articles do not engage in supposition. See WP:No original research. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 08:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Symbol for "killed"

Detail of the Gladiator Mosaic, with two examples of "killed" symbol

I just reverted, with a desire for discussion, the change of the supposed "cross" symbol to KIA in the infobox. The history of this symbol is murky and debated, but see Theta and particularly Theta#Abbreviation, where it explains (though not very well) the old-style theta (see Phoenician teth) as standing for thanatos. This is disputed, but Roman military papyri have a similar mark for a soldier killed in action, as do mosaics depicting fallen gladiators. Somewhere there's a discussion about this mark, and I'll link to it when I find it. I think KIA seems anachronistic for antiquity, but perhaps there's a symbol to use that would be more like that of the Greeks and Romans. Thanks. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:56, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Here's the discussion, and see also Gladiator Mosaic. In the mosaic, there's a single crossbar that extends outside the circle, so it may not actually be a theta; theta for thanatos may be an explanation after the fact. The teth had a cross, and one might compare the pre-Christian use of the Celtic cross, except that our article takes the non-neutral POV that the Christian Celtic cross is unrelated to the sun cross. Sorry to be such a pedant, but my point is that all crosses aren't Christian. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:17, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Significance Of the battle

All historical revisionism and comic book fodder aside, Thermopylae is still the stuff of legend. (We should be careful that the current 'Aftermath' section doesn't preclude the readers appreciation of the place this battle has held in the historical imagination:) The subsequent defeat of Xerxses' invasion is widely regarded as one of most important military victories in Western history.

[ Correction: I should have referred to the 'Significance' section, not the 'Aftermath' section Seipjere (talk) 15:17, 13 June 2012 (UTC) ]

all the best, ciao Seipjere (talk) 14:49, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Please add

In "See also" section please add http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Battle_of_Wizna — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.88.149.8 (talk) 10:46, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Done by someone else --Enric Naval (talk) 17:20, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Table Headings

Wouldn't a heading of "Combatants" or "Parties" be less pejorative than "Belligerents"? – 71.229.4.173 (talk) 02:58, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

This word is generated by Template:Infobox_military_conflict. I took the liberty of copying your message to Template_talk:Infobox_military_conflict#less_pejorative_heading. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:20, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Sources

I am dissatisfied with the section discussing sources (as of 16 June 2014). This is an article on the "Battle of Thermopylae," not an article on "Greco-Persian Wars." More to the point, the only historical source for the Battle of Thermopylae is just one account from one man, Herodotus. If he hadn't written that account, we would know nothing of the most important battle in Western history. The article buries that fact, choosing, instead, to talk about the more general Greco-Persian Wars. A section on sources should talk about the sources that inform us about this particular topic, not broader sources that might say nothing about this particular topic. Pooua (talk) 17:25, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Geographic coordinates

The article has this as its geographic coordinates: 38°48′0″N 22°32′0″E / 38.80000°N 22.53333°E / 38.80000; 22.53333

This spot is a broad cultivated field, not the narrow pass one pictures when thinking of the last stand of Leonidas and his men. I understand that the battle occupied a larger area; a hundred thousand Persians wouldn't have in a narrow pass. But the pass is the site most strongly associated with the battle. This agricultural area north of the highway, on the other hand, seems to be part of the reclaimed land described in the photo caption. If that's the case, this would have been underwater at the time of the battle.

The article says that the pass has been discovered to have been on Kolonos Hill. Wouldn't that be a better place to spot this article? TypoBoy (talk) 14:29, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Image: Battle of Thermopylae - a flow map of the battle

The previous image has been substitute in order to better describe the differences between the two armies and the dynamics of the battle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicoloarena (talk • contribs) 14:56, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

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Dates incorrect?

This article and the article of the Battle of Plataea state that the Battle of Plataea took place after the Battle of Thermopylae. Yet, in the article the Battle of Plataea is stated as taking place in 479 BC, whereas the Battle of Thermopylae is stated as taking place on its page in 480. InfinityBeard (talk) 23:48, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

this was B.C.E., that means that the smaller the date the later it took place, that means the dates of platea and thermopylae were correct

Pyrrhic Victory

It is already stated in the article that the battle was considered a pyrrhic victory, and it is obviously known today. Should the victory type in the information card be changed to 'Persian Pyrrhic victory'? UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 23:22, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Never mind, went to edit and it said not to add 'pyrrhic' or 'decisive' to the title. UNSC Luke 1021 (talk) 23:24, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

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Figures

User:Simanos believes that certain numbers represent original research and fringe view(s).[2] Thoughts? --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:57, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Considering wikipedia article https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Battle_of_Plataea has modern consensus of 150k-250k it's ludicrous to consider only 70k as a modern consensus for Thermopylae. In Plataea the Persian King had already left with half the army too. Between Ionia and MAcedonia and the other mainland Greece cities that allied (somewhat) with the Persians there were at least 50k Greeks in the Persian army too.Simanos (talk) 15:57, 13 April 2017 (UTC)


  • "Battle_of_Plataea has modern consensus of 150k-250k it's ludicrous to consider only 70k as a modern consensus for Thermopylae."
Yeah, that is original research.
FYI, Tom Holland is just a writer, not an academic historian.
I would suggest academic source, that is, if you are going to keep edit warring your personal opinion into the article.--Kansas Bear (talk) 16:42, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
It's not my personal opinion, whoever put in 70k was pushing his POV. You still didn't explain how there were 150k-250k (modern consensus) in the next battle after half the army leaving with the King. Also your formatting here is weird.Simanos (talk) 17:02, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Also Holland was the one who you claimed was quoted for the 70k consensus. The reason you undid my previous edit was because we don't change quotes. Those were your words. If you don't like Holland then why did you object to changing a "quote" of his in the infobox (it could still exist in main part of article). I don't think Holland says 70k though. Make up your mind please. Simanos (talk) 17:04, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
This was started when; I said "we do not changed quoted information", since it appear to be a quote but was in fact a quote within a note.
"A huge number of estimates have been made since the 19th century, ranging from 15,000 to acceptance of Herodotus' 1,800,000. No real consensus exists; even the most recent estimates by academics vary between 120,000 and 300,000. As Holland puts it, "in short...we will never know." -- Holland, 394
As for the 120,000 - 300,000 which is directly referenced by Holland, then later by that exact same quote states, "in short...we will never know.", which further negates his unreliable opinion.
  • "You still didn't explain how there were 150k-250k (modern consensus) in the next battle after half the army leaving with the King."
You should try reading the article;
Would appear your opinion of "150k-250k (modern consensus)" appears to be OR and/or fringe.
  • "Make up your mind please."
Instead why don't you start using edit summaries to explain your edits. Like here, which started all this. And if you are going to use the excuse "fringe" and "OR" to explain your edits, you should refrain from using a non-academic source like Holland. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:51, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
You added the unsourced figures to the infobox, without sources or an edit summary. This looks like you have been adding figures to suit your own POV.
And judging from this statement, I do not believe you can recognize a reliable source. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:14, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Jack Cassin-Scott is not an historian either. This source should not be used. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:29, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Lazenby does not represent modern consensus. If you take a look at this talk page 7 or 8 years ago we had the same argument and there was an accounting of the modern sources, which were good and which were on the fringes. You still haven't cleared the matter of you reverting my edit of the infobox because you objected to me removing what you assumed was a quote from Holland, but then you diss Holland in this talkpage for not being a historian. Well he's both a fiction writer and a historian. I don't put my faith in him, but he's not terrible (he's no Encyclopedia Iranica if you catch my drift). 18:37, 14 April 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Simanos (talk • contribs)
Lazenby is a reliable source, compared to Holland, who is simply a writer and not a reliable source.
  • "You still haven't cleared the matter of you reverting my edit of the infobox because you objected to me removing what you assumed was a quote from Holland.."
Which is redundant when the entire sentence(s) are referenced by Holland who is not a reliable source.
FYI, Iranica is written by academics, if you have an issue with it, I would suggest taking your concerns to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard.
  • "If you take a look at this talk page 7 or 8 years ago we had the same argument and there was an accounting of the modern sources, which were good and which were on the fringes."
And you continue to change figures without explanation or sources. You added unsourced figures to the infobox, without sources or an edit summary.
Still waiting for an explanation for this edit. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:05, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

You're omnislashing a bit too much friend, but I'll try to cope. I made a mistake and did 1 edit without explaining in the summary. Guilty as charged. I didn't say Lazenby is entirely unreliable. I said there was a talk years ago and the limits were set. You say the entire sentence is from Holland and it should be removed, but you were adding it back in yourself. Iranica was investigated and it was indeed pushing POV in several articles (even if as a whole it wasn't extremely biased). Several POV pushers tried to claim that Iranica wasn't even run by Iranians at all, but it quickly surfaced that the "President" was of Iranian decent and so were a lot of others. The explanation for the 150k-250k on the later battle after casualties and after the Persian King leaving with half the army should be obvious

I see you added a reference to 60k now, can you provide the whole "Barkworth, 1993. The Organization of Xerxes' Army. Iranica Antiqua Vol. 27, pp. 149-167" reference? Because I can only find articles that mention it, but not the direct text in my sources. I hope you can see how this is getting ridiculous now. I mean the Greeks had like 50k hoplites and 50k light troops in Plataea and a 50k navy in Salamis and a 50k navy and marines in Mycale at the same time almost. The Persian Army had Greek mercenaries/allies from Asia Minor, Thrace, Macedonia, Thessaly and Boeotia that numbered in 40k or more and you're going to tell me that the largest Empire in the world at the time, Persia, only added 20k to that number? From its multitude of nations? Unless that 60k number is about the soldiers that took direct action in Thermopylae, while the rest were held in reserve. Which probably isn't off, but the infoboxes count total army makeups including reserves. The reserve nature is explained in the main body of the article, in the battle section.

There has also been tons of discussion on some flawed arguments used by "some" like that the rivers in Macedonia (or else) couldn't support over 100k men using 10 litres a day (claimed they would drink the rivers dry), while same rivers support 2 million using 1000 litres a day now. Or how they hand-wave the Persian civil wars that had 500k soldiers on each side, documented by Persians. And that their . It all reminds me of how similar "historians" simply refused to accept the Myceneans were Greeks and that Linear B was a Greek language, until it was finally deciphered and it was proven to be Greek. Some people just have problems to accept that the Mediterranean was "Mare Greek" for 20 centuries before it became Mare Nostrum. Everything is met with consternation and disparagement by a few people Simanos (talk) 20:06, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

  • "You say the entire sentence is from Holland and it should be removed.."
No. The entire sentence appears to be sourced by Holland. If it is not, then it is unsourced information and should be removed. If it is sourced by Holland it should be removed. Holland is not an academic historian.
  • "but you were adding it back in yourself."
It is called assuming good faith, that other editors would use academic sources. I am also AGF with the Barkworth source, which can be found in Xerxes I. Another example of good faith gone wrong. Where the other editor could not state their article concerns, until their last PA-laden sentence mentioned "war crimes". Which oddly, I had mentioned in my second post.
So, can you bring academic sources that support numbers? And I will bring sources that support numbers. Sound good?
  • "Some people just have problems to accept that the Mediterranean was "Mare Greek" for 20 centuries before it became Mare Nostrum."
OK? I do not have any feelings/concerns about Mare Nostrum, Mare Graeca, or Ελληνική θάλασσα(via google translate). --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:27, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
I will try and find the archives after the weekend provided I do not die from too much foodSimanos (talk) 21:12, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Reference to "Gauls" is from the wrong battle, wrong century

From this Battle of Thermopylae page, referencing the 480 BC invasion by Xerxes of Persia:

  • In a later passage, describing a Gaulish attempt to force the pass,
  • When the Gauls attempted to force the pass, the shallowness of the water gave the Greek fleet great difficulty getting close enough to the fighting to bombard the Gauls with ship-borne missile weapons.

The Gaulish invasion is from 279BC = https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae_%28279_BC%29

If the text references the equivalent-to-Xerxes difficulties encountered in the centuries-later Gaulish invasion, that should be unambiguously stated as such, but this manner of statement is confusingly / poorly stated.

I'm not going to edit the page itself, because I don't know the events well enough to say things well enough in context, but I did want to make note of this mistake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markandrewwood (talk • contribs) 16:52, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:37, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Ref no. 1

The first reference says "Bradford, 162", without specifying the year, but there are two works by Bradford in the bibliography. Which one is it?--Leptictidium (mt) 18:56, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Never mind, I found it myself, it was the one published in 1980.--Leptictidium (mt) 12:14, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Date of the Battle

The dates for the battle currently listed are September 8-20, 480BC and August 20, 480BC citing calculations published by Edward Greswell in 1827 and Ernle Bradford in 1980. However, a study from last year conducted at the University of Athens analyzed Herodotus's descriptions of events and compared them to celestial events, old Greek calendars, and concurrent events such as the olympic games, and concluded the most probable date of the battle to actually be July 21-23, 480BC. Perhaps the article ought to be updated to include these more recent calculations? Link to the study:

https://sci-cult.com/wp-content/uploads/7.2/7_2_6_Gongaki_et_al.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1p8Q64yGpmBiNyRbGRD6kXhyjq4XJFgGCWLM1sbJ-YADTnUE0qAhJ0k4I

Spartanguy16 (talk) 00:00, 12 July 2021 (UTC)Spartanguy16

Lack of Source's / Questionable Narrative

I am concerned that some of this article (especially the intro) is not sourced and provides an ahistorical pop narrative about the battle. I think it might rely on ancient sources uncritically. I do not have any direct sources to back my claim, I just listened to the r/askhistorians podcast (ep 116) featuring Dr. Roel Konijnendijk (focus on Classical Greek warfare). He suggests that the narrative often presented is the result of Spartan's post facto justifying their defeat and trying to maintain their position as leaders of the Greek anti-Persian resistance. I am really not qualified to do a thorough revision of this article, but hopefully some history student or phd with better knowledge of the current scholarship can. I think it is important that we do not fall for ancient propaganda and avoid using actual historical events as props for modern messages.

I am specifically referring to the section: "The Persian army arrived at the pass in late August or early September.[...] The performance of the defenders is also used as an example of the advantages of training, equipment, and good use of terrain as force multipliers and has become a symbol of courage against overwhelming odds." which lacks any apparent sources.

At points it mentions a Greek, who is apparently attested to in ancient sources, that informs the Persians of a route around the pass. Dr. Roel Konijnendijk brought up in the podcast how Greeks in the Persian army were actually from the neighboring area and had made use of the pass ~10 yrs earlier. Given this information, we should still mention the narrative presented in ancient sources, but also include reasons to be skeptical.

Basically I am saying that the Greeks lost the battle in every sense, that the Spartans stayed to die for cultural reasons and to save face (not for strategic reasons of which there were none), and that much of the narrative around the battle is the result of ancient propaganda from the Spartans and other Greeks.

Hopefully someone with a better command of the field sees this and makes the appropriate edits. I woefully under-qualified to do so.

Lolcatskingdom (talk) 00:20, 30 June 2021 (UTC)Lolcatskingdom

@Lolcatskingdom: Just from being in the position to write the above message, you’re already one of the most qualified people to do this. :-) We ask people to be bold: Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and even if you make some mistakes, that just means someone else will correct it later. You clearly have a more than passing knowledge of the subject already, so all you have to ask yourself is whether your edits leave the article better than the previous version.
While you have correctly noted that you do need to cite your sources so that others can check your work, finding them doesn’t require any special expertise in itself. If necessary, perhaps the people at the subreddit might have suggestions to help you find reliable sources (or confirm that they do not exist). There is also a list of helpful links at WP:RS#Locating reliable sources. Sunrise (talk) 23:11, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Herodotos' figures

Why are figures of c. 2.6 million included in the infobox? Herodotos is as close to a primary source in this case, not a modern professional historian. We're rightfully critical of how we use contemporary figures for, say, the battle for Crécy, or other historical evnts.

What modern historians actually agree with Herodotos when it comes to figures?

Peter Isotalo 11:05, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I've removed the figures by ancient sources from the infobox. I would argue that primary source figures that are considered debunked by modern scholarship is simply not neutral. I creates a false equivalence between ancient and modern historians and feeds into fanciful ideas about the superiority of West over East.
Peter Isotalo 17:05, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
Then you are out of step with modern scholarship and the disciplines we follow. Wild exaggerations are common in historical accounts in Ancient and Medieval primary sources that any casual modern examination reveals.50.111.15.21 (talk) 13:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

CN tags

The two "Citation Needed" tags in the lead have now been removed three separate times, with no attempt to actually provide citations. For anyone who may be unaware, the burden for demonstrating verifiability falls on the editors who support inclusion of material.

Am I missing something? Or is this an implicit admission that the content in question cannot in fact be sourced, and should therefore be removed instead? Sunrise (talk) 23:05, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

OK, since there's been (much more than) enough time for a response, I've gone ahead and removed the text in question. Sunrise (talk) 22:58, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
Good. Very proper - I've had to do the same thing many times in other articles, often to have them restored by nationalists but still without reference!!! 50.111.15.21 (talk) 13:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Is this statement in the article correct?

This article states "Following Thermopylae, the Persian army proceeded to sack and burn Plataea", and the article Battle of Plataea states "Result: Greek victory". Could someone clarify? Thank you --152.165.121.116 (talk) 06:51, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Platea is just a central Greek city that was sacked and burned by the Persians after the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 BCE, during their advance to Athens. It just happens that the great Battle of Plataea took place in the plains in front of Platea during the Greek counter-attack one year later in 479 BCE. There was a lot of back and forth in a rather short period of time... पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 07:18, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
Thank you :) --152.165.121.116 (talk) 07:26, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 August 2020 and 3 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Angerine01.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 15:26, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Herodotus and Holland

I am concerned by this articles, heavy reliance on citing Herodotus and Holland in the Aftermath section and indeed the broader article. To an almost exclusive degree the two are leaned upon.

No disrespect to Holland, but there are many more qualified historians on this area of Greco-Persian history, he is not a specialist in this topic. As for Herodotus, his ambiguous status as a primary source should surely invalidate him from being cited so heavily. There are many historians, who have dedicated themselves to Greco-Persian conflict who have synthesised the useful aspects of Herodotus' work, and separated it from the specious elements (such as Xerxes errr, 'whipping the sea' which I just had to remove) let them speak instead. Sovietblobfish (talk) 18:14, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

"A flow map of the battle"

The image with the above label is quantitatively incorrect. The scale at the top of the image seems to indicate each dot represents 5,000 soldiers. (I say "seems", because the Persian total as written--210,000-- would require one more dot if each dot is 5,000.) The Greek army, shown with 5 dots on the first day and seven subsequently, was nowhere near 25-35,000 men at any point in the battle. MayerG (talk) 13:25, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE, WP:EXTRAORDINARY, WP:POV

I have reverted this recent addition [3] on the grounds that it is revisionist POV, WP:FRINGE, WP:UNDUE and makes WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims from a source that does not meet the level required for such claims. Specifically:

  • The views presented are clearly WP:FRINGE, as they contradict all the sources on subject. The claim that the battles of Marathon and Salamis were "minor skirmishes" is total nonsense, contradicted by every source on the subject, by the size of the Persian armies and navies, and by the presence of Xerxes himself at Salamis. Such claims reveal poor scholarship and knowledge of military history by the author, who as it happens is not a military historian.
  • Strongly revisionist and ethnocentric POV, especially with the old guilt-by-association trick by trying to associate the battle with European imperialism. I can't help but get the impression that this is revisionist ethnocentric POV disguised in the language of the recent "decolonize knowledge" fad.
  • Dabashi is professor of Comparative Literature, with a Ph.D. in sociology, not a historian, much less a military historian. The claims he makes about the significance of the battle both in its time and later are WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims. For instance, as the literature makes clear, the battle had a huge morale boost for the Greeks at the time and bought valuable time for them. It was thus both of psychological as well as tangible military importance. To thus describe it as a minor, insignificant skirmish that was not significant in its time is an absolutely extraordinary claim, which requires top notch sourcing, which this isn't. I'd be more charitably inclined if this were sourced to a military historian, but sourcing such claims to a comp lit prof is out of the question.
  • This is minor, but placing something like this at the top of the "Legacy" section is also extremely WP:UNDUE.

In summary, there is an enormous body of military history literature on the subject (e.g. [4] [5] to name but a few), and these additions contradict pretty much all of it. The claims made are extraordinary, the source does not measure up, the scholarship is demonstrably poor, and the revisionist and ethnocentric POV is strong. Again, I'd be more charitably inclined to keep some of these additions if this were at least a military history source, perhaps in a separate "revisionist view" section, but seeing as this is not the case, I can't agree to keep any of this. Khirurg (talk) 04:05, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I think it's interesting to have the Iranian POV, even if it's fringe when confronted with the rest of the world scholarship. The question is whether this addition is prevalent in Iranian scholarship. T8612 (talk) 07:44, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
As a start:
  • Dabashi holds the highest chair in Iranian Studies in the US
  • He lives in the US (40+ years?), not Iran
  • The book is published by Harvard University Press
Makes me wonder about claims such as "Iranian POV" and "Fringe". - LouisAragon (talk) 16:02, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
  • "Dabashi is professor of Comparative Literature, with a Ph.D. in sociology, not a historian, much less a military historian. The claims he makes about the significance of the battle both in its time and later are WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims."
I agree about the fact that he's not a military historian; his remarks about those battles being "minor skirmishes" are probably out of his scope.
Of equal importance: this entire article, at least 70-80% of it, is based on Herodotus, a 2,500 y/o primary source, and Tom Holland, a writer with a degree in English literature (not even "comparative literature/sociology). Yet I don't see many, including you, being bothered about that. But when the head of Iranian Studies in the US, with degrees in sociology/comparative literature, talks about Thermopylae's ahistorical glorification in later Western literary history and conscious (with...wait for it... literary examples!) he gets labeled with all kinds of rash WP policies?
- LouisAragon (talk) 16:02, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
As I've already explained, the problem is, his claims about the battle not being significant in its own time, and basically dismissing the whole Greco-Persian wars as "minor skirmishes" are ahistorical, show poor knowledge of the subject, and contradict all the literature on the subject (not just Herodotus and Tom Holland). This shows poor scholarship, period. The fact that he is highly credentialed doesn't make it less poor. The rest, about the "ahistorical glorification" of the battle in the West and the guilt-by-association with imperialism is just revisionist POV and hand-waving. Anyone can make claims like that. And it all falls apart when we know the battle was significant in its own time - it's glorification in later centuries is thus not ahistorical. His whole thesis is built on the false premise that the battle was not significant in its own time. Regarding ethnocentric POV, it doesn't matter where one lives in order to do so, and neither does possessing credentials make it less ethnocentric. I do agree with you regarding the sourcing of the article, but that is easily remedied given the vast literature on the subject (some of which I have linked in my previous post), and is anyway a separate matter from the criticism of Dabashi's thesis. Khirurg (talk) 16:28, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Could you cite some examples of this vast, contradicting literature? --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:48, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Also, it took me less than 5 minutes to find texts not that dissimilar to Dabashi. I wonder if there is more;
"First, we might note the enduring interest in specific and singular defeats such as Thermopylae, Cannae, or Teutoburg.21 These defeats may mark turning points—in hindsight—but they also tend to be glorified, or presented with a focus upon the glory of suffering defeat and yet recovering to fight another day. It is important to remember that these battles are all presented as defeats because they are usually viewed from the position of the defeated and as part of some sort of “Western” heritage. But Thermopylae, Cannae, and Teutoburg were also victories. One problem with the selection of a “canon” of defeats is that it excludes the opposing perspective; another is that it creates an artificial set in which the common denominator is modern self-identification, not any ancient historical reality." Brill's Companion to Military Defeat in Ancient Mediterranean Society. Brill. p. 8. ISBN 978-9004298583.
"The passage is remarkable for many reasons. On the one hand, it reveals a specific lieu de mémoire where the Persian Wars (actually the “Median [Wars]”: tois Medikois ̄ ) still had some relevance during the Roman Empire. On the other hand, at least in our text, this relevance is of somewhat reduced significance. Whereas from a modern perspective a battle at the famous site of Thermopylae would above all call to mind the celebrated event of 480BCE, the Roman perspective of the third century CE is a rather different one.2 To be sure, Thermopylae is still a battlefield that recalls the invasion by the Achaemenid Persian Empire, but this is just one event among others, and, as it appears, not the most important one. Thermopylae seems to be about equally significant as the location of a comparable event during the Lamian War (323–322BCE), and both occurrences are far outstripped by the Syrian War (192–188BCE): this was the war that Rome fought against the Seleucid king Antiochus III (223–187BCE), and it is Antiochus – and not primarily the Persians – who is introduced as the ultimate representative of Asian hubris, threat, and outreach." - In Jacobs, Bruno; Rollinger, Robert (eds.). A Companion to the Achaemenid Persian Empire. John Wiley & Sons. p. 2. ISBN 978-1119174288.
"From the very beginning, reconstruction of the history of the Achaemenid Persian Empire was affected by a point of view that focused primarily on two events: the first was the Persian Wars at the beginning of the fifth century BCE and the second the downfall of the empire at the end of the fourth century BCE. Both events became part of well‐designed master narratives that presented the empire as a colossus with feet of clay, and the empire’s defeats were celebrated as the heroic deeds of opponents fighting for freedom against an Asian craze for the huge and spectacular. Thus, the Persian Wars became a climax in the conflict between Greek (and European) liberty and Asian despotism, and Alexander III was staged as “Alexander the Great,” a heroic conqueror king, while other relevant aspects of his “career” such as aggression, violence, and destruction moved entirely into the background. The sources that established these master narratives originated without exception from the western fringes of the empire, but this did not impair their success. On the contrary, such narratives became an integral part of classical and later European history, one that shaped perception not only of the “oriental” Other and of Asia but also of their purported European antithesis. Although, as we have seen, the importance of the Persian Wars within the general course of history was somewhat relativized during the Roman Empire (cf. Spawforth 1994; Rollinger 2019), our view of the Achaemenid Persian Empire remained primarily determined by other sources and their presentation of the impressive defeats suffered by the Persians in the fifth and fourth centuries BCE (cf. Wiesehöfer 1992, 2002, 2003, 2013)." - In Jacobs, Bruno; Rollinger, Robert (eds.). A Companion to the Achaemenid Persian Empire. John Wiley & Sons. p. 2. ISBN 978-1119174288.
"Dio Chrysostom, a Greek philosopher and orator of the 1st century CE, relays that the Persians rejected outright the Greek version of events and had their own take: Xerxes invaded Greece and on the one hand defeated the Spartans at Thermopylae and killed their king, Leonidas, and on the other hand he captured the city of the Athenians and demolished it, and those who did not escape he sold into slavery. After he accomplished this he imposed tribute on the Greeks and returned to Asia. (11.149) The reliability of this report must also remain open to question, as has been the case with Herodotus and other accounts datable much closer to the events. But it seems reasonable enough as a Persian perspective – it echoes in outline what one would expect from a royal inscription (such as Bisitun) about a successful campaign. In the final analysis it is correct to view Thermopylae and Artemisium as Persian victories: the Greeks were slaughtered or routed and the Persian advance continued. The punishment of Athens (sacked twice) was one point of the campaign, and Xerxes could view that mission as accomplished." - Waters, Matt (2014). Ancient Persia: A Concise History of the Achaemenid Empire, 550–330 BCE. Cambridge University Press. p. 132. ISBN 978-0521253697.
--HistoryofIran (talk) 21:17, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Actually, what you are citing is very different from Dabashi. First, I don't see any of the ahistorical nonsense about the Greco-Persian wars as a series of "minor skirmishes", and about the battle not being significant in its own time. In fact, the sources you posted contradict Dabashi's these that the battle was not significant. Nor do I see the postmoderist POV about the legacy of the battle contributing to European Imperialism. That the battle was commemorated in subsequent centuries is not controversial and already in the article (that's what the legacy section is all about). Khirurg (talk) 21:47, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
The sources literally point out the overglorification and questionable point of view of of the battle, not that much different from Dabashi. The legacy section is heavily messy, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. This should be delisted from GA indeed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:53, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Your first source says that battle was "glorified", but not overly so. It also describes it as a "turning point", directly contradicting Dabashi. The second source merely states that the Romans viewed the importance of the location of Thermopylae differently form the way we do. The third says literally nothing about Thermopylae, and the fourth just relays the view of Dio Chrysostom that the Persian POV was that Thermopylae was a victory (which is non-controversial and already in the infobox by the way). Nothing about the battle being insignificant in its own time, or contributing to European Imperialism. And nothing anywhere about the Greco-Persian wars being a series of "minor skirmishes on the periphery of the Empire". So, very different from Dabashi. Khirurg (talk) 22:45, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Your first source says that battle was "glorified", but not overly so. It also describes it as a "turning point", directly contradicting Dabashi.
You can't just take bits from a sentence, leaving out important details that encompass the line "may mark turning points—in hindsight—but they also tend to be glorified, or presented with a focus upon the glory of suffering defeat and yet recovering to fight another day." That is—with all due respect—cherry picking. And perhaps not overly glorified, but simply "glorified" is not a small matter either. -HistoryofIran (talk) 23:06, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
The second source merely states that the Romans viewed the importance of the location of Thermopylae differently form the way we do.
So 13 lines and that is all it says? This is a heavy simplification to be put it mildly, not to mention (a convenient) disregard of information that once again goes against you. This particular bit I'm not gonna summarize as well, please read it again - everyone can see what it says.
The third says literally nothing about Thermopylae, and the fourth just relays the view of Dio Chrysostom that the Persian POV was that Thermopylae was a victory (which is non-controversial and already in the infobox by the way). Nothing about the battle being insignificant in its own time, or contributing to European Imperialism. And nothing anywhere about the Greco-Persian wars being a series of "minor skirmishes on the periphery of the Empire".
Not at all, it shows that the battle wasn't near so significant from a Persian POV, but once again, you disregarded convinent information and simplificied it to the last bit. But yeah, very different from Dabashi indeed.
Can another editor please review these citations? Meanwhile Khirug can find those "vast, contradicting literature" which I requested from him. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:06, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
And can you point out where the sources you have posted make the case that battle was not significant in its own time, and the the whole Greco-Persian wars were a series of "minor skirmishes"? And that the legacy of the battle contributed to "European imperialism" and the view of "ahistorical, prophetic and even divine signifiance in furthering the myth of “the West” as the presumed center of the universe and the Christian God’s gift to humanity" as Dabashi writes? Because I can't find that anywhere else. Whole books have been written about the battle, two of which I have linked in my first post. You can start with those. Khirurg (talk) 23:47, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
My attempt is to show that Dabashi's view about the battle of Thermopylae doesn't sound so far fetched as you claim per the sources above. All the citations I posted mostly focuses on Thermopylae, and which highlights the overglorifcation of the battle, especially in Europe, being solely from a Greek POV, as well as its less significant importance from a Persian POV, etc - all which suggests that the information given by Dabashi doesn't exactly sound outrageous. Also, two sources =/= vast literature. Please at least cite some stuff from the books, like I did. If you're so confident on what you're saying, then we can conclude this discussion quickly. And if what you're saying is indeed correct, then fair play. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:52, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Well then in that case your attempt was unsuccessful, to say the least. Specifically, you have failed to demonstrate support for his claims that a) the battle was not significant in its own time, b) the whole Greco-Persian wars were nothing more than some minor skirmishes, c) that Thermopylae contributed to European imperialism, and d) that it contributed to furthering the myth of “the West” as the presumed center of the universe and the Christian God’s gift to humanity. Furthermore, the burden of proof is on those claiming the battle was not significant, and not the other way around, but I will note that Holland, Bradford and Cartledge consider it a battle "that changed the course of world history", so yeah, I think we can conclude this discussion quickly. In fact, I think we just concluded it right now. Khirurg (talk) 03:53, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
I've already clearly stated what I am trying to demonstrate here, yet the very next comment you try to twist those words. It's interesting that you cite Holland who is not even WP:RS, but consider Dabashi to be unqualified. Please be a bit more cooperative (see also WP:DISRUPTSIGNS, number 4), so far you have shown nothing that supports that Dabashi is "WP:FRINGE, WP:UNDUE and makes WP:EXTRAORDINARY", which makes all this look like your personal opinion, rather than what scholarly sources states. Please properly cite excerpts from this "vast, contradicting, literature" (this is the third time I'm asking you), with page numbers and all that. If nothing is shown in a week, then I will restore the Dabashi text. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:39, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
That Dabashi text should certainly not be restored as it was - it is absurd and undue to have that much revisionist content at the start of the legacy section. If there's more extensive literature to support the idea cited then fine, but nothing you've suggested so far supports Dabashi at all. Unbh (talk) 12:28, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Indeed. @HistoryofIran: I've already explained to you many times how Dabashi fails WP:FRINGE and WP:EXTRAORDINARY, and is ethnocentric POV, and you have failed to rebut my points, instead you keep to reverse the burden of proof. There is simple no way Dabashi's fringe ethnocentric revisionist claims are going in the article, and that's that. Khirurg (talk) 13:55, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
I've seen it noted elsewhere recently by @LouisAragon that all these Greco-Persian War articles have a massive over reliance on Herodotus and Holland. That the former is the case is no surprise, it was his object in writing it and he is by orders of magnitude the greatest source. Holland is the most accessible modern popular history. He's not an academic, but to claim he's not RS is pretty harsh, the general quality of his research stands up to inspection. Finding other sources to support and corroborate Holland would be easy. Sources agreeing with Dabashi may exist but I've not seen the,
I think the actual issue here is that the legacy and reception section is infect woefully under developed and would certainly withstand scrutiny for the development of it's own article, let alone the better development of the section here. Unbh (talk) 16:28, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Indeed, I agree on all points. Holland's publishers meet the WP:RS criterion for reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Also agree regarding the Legacy section in its entirety. Khirurg (talk) 20:38, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Holland is still not a very good source, when compared to the wealth of good secondary sources on the subject.
As an aside, Robert Graves wrote a poem, The Persian Version (giving the Persian POV on the battle of Marathon), where he too mentions " The trivial skirmish fought near Marathon." T8612 (talk) 22:40, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
The Persian Version is a critique of war and the way it's presented by those in power when they fail in their aims, it's not really about Marathon. I could see discussion of it being useful in a "Legacy of ..." article but it's not particularly relevant here (maybe Gallipoli!) Unbh (talk) 06:03, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

@Khirurg: That's the issue. You haven't explained anything. You have stated some stuff, however, without any form of evidence. You have now been asked multiple times to demonstrate this so called "vast" and "contradicting" "literature", yet you can't even cite a single page of a book, let alone several books. Frankly, this is now entering the realm of WP:TENDENTIOUS, WP:JDLI and WP:DISRUPTSIGNS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:52, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Indeed it has. I have repeatedly shown you how Dabashi is WP:FRINGE, and you have failed to make the case that he isn't. WP:IDHT is disruptive, as is trying to reverse the burden of proof. Anyway, it does appear that there is no support for including Dabashi besides you, so I advise against trying to ram it through by brute force. Have a nice day. Khirurg (talk) 02:55, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
I did cite sources that demonstrated that Dabashi wasn't WP:FRINGE as you groundlessly claimed. Stating your own personal opinion doesn't count as that - we base our stuff on WP:RS, nothing else. Even if I was indeed the only one supporting this, that wouldn't matter, considering Wikipedia isn't a democracy. I would say this has entered the realm of WP:POV and WP:OWN as well. There's still more than half a week left for you to actually prove what you're saying is words of academics and not your own. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:20, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
Noting you have cited in anyway supports the argument that Dabashi is not fringe Unbh (talk) 12:26, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
Please explain why. And while you're at it, please show proof that Dabashi is indeed fringe. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:27, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
The additional sources cited above by user:HistoryofIran all reinforce several important points that this article currently fails to present. #1 The overglofirication of the Battle of Thermopylae in later Western conscious as some part of united "Western" heritage (Brill) #2 the overglorification of some sort of Western/European ideal of liberty vs Asian/Oriental despotism. (Wiley & Sons, 2021) #3 the lack of a contemporaneous Persian POV (Waters, Cambridge University Press, 2014). Dabashi can be attributed appropriately, but I don't see any reason to believe that his statement, published in a book by Harvard University Press, constitutes WP:FRINGE. Both Khirurg and Unbh have failed to present any sort of counter evidence from WP:RS that would discredit the views as cited above (Brill, Wiley & Sons ×2, Cambridge University Press), including that of Dabashi (Harvard University Press). The material will be re-added if they continue to WP:STONEWALL without counter-sources and if they then try to revert again, this will have to be brought to ANI. - LouisAragon (talk) 13:22, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
Dabashi is fringe because his claims about the battle not being significant in its own time and that the entire Greco-Persian wars were no more than a series of "minor skirmishes" shows not only poor scholarship, but also a rather bitter ethnocentric POV ("and we didn't really lose, it was just a series of minor skirmishes anyway"). The battle was extremely significant in its own time (I've shown sources that describe it "the battle that changed the world), thus completely debunking Dabashi's claims of overglorification. I've explained this many times, but and you and HistoryofIran are refusing to get the point. There is nothing in those other sources about "overglorification". And neither of you should issue ultimatums ("you have a week"), it won't work, and will look really bad at ANI. Khirurg (talk) 15:16, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
I am open to using other sources, but Dabashi is out. Khirurg (talk) 15:53, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
I am not giving you an ultimatum, but rather assume WP:GF and give you a chance to cease your persistent WP:DISRUPTSIGNS and WP:STONEWALLING by finally demonstrating the so called "vast" and "contradicting" literature to actually demonstrate that Dabash is "rather bitter ethnocentric POV" and "fringe" rather than you not liking what you're reading (WP:JDLI). And yes, this will look bad at ANI indeed. Dabashi refers to Thermopylae, Salamis etc skirmishes on the distant front of the Achaemenid Empire. He doesn't call the Greco-Persian Wars "minor skirmishes". I'm not going to repeat myself any further than this, since we're just going back and forth at this rate. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:03, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
We're going back and forth because you are ignoring what I'm saying. Demanding that I "demonstrate" to you that dismissing the entire Greco-Persian Wars as a "series of minor skirmishes" is fringe ethnocentric POV is ludicrous. Such views automatically disqualify Dabashi as a source. It's that simple. Khirurg (talk) 19:40, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

To try and be constructive, what should be built into the legacy section? The battle as a motif for heroic persistence, it's place in Western culture as a perceived turning point? I could see some of this Dabashi stuff going in as a counterpoint to that material, though I think it would all be better covered in a "Legacy of the Greco-Persian wars" article that allowed more sensible coverage of other aspects discussed about like Marathon and Salamis that are really out of please in this article.Unbh (talk) 07:06, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

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