Talk:Second Battle of Shuja'iyya

Merge complete

@Genabab Hello, I have completed the merge and requested the deletion of the duplicate page. Thank you! Evaporation123 (talk) 22:25, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Result= "Palestinian victory"?

Is there any RS saying that the result of this battle was a "Palestinian victory"? Originally, this article said the result was "Israeli withdrawal", which is consistent with other articles about battles during this war. (e.g. Siege of Khan Yunis, Battle of Shuja'iyya (2023), Battle of Beit Hanoun, Hamad City incursion). the provided citation does not call it a "victory".

Rainsage (talk) 15:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you. Indeed, the cited reference doesn't include "victory". As the status was changed few times already, I don't want to change it again to "Israeli withdrawal", so this I'm tagging @The Great Mule of Eupatoria who change if from "Israeli withdrawal" to "Palestinian [paramilitaries] victory". Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 12:10, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

hello, I see from your talk page that you've already been warned twice against participating in pages regarding the "Arab–Israeli conflict." you're not allowed to edit articles or participate in Talk pages beyond making edit requests. Rainsage (talk) 21:59, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

If I am recalling correctly Wikipedia policy there are 3 results which are “victory”, “defeat” and “inconclusive”, and “Israeli withdrawal” doesn’t appear to be the correct result. This was one of the reasons I moved the hamad city and tel al hawa incursions, as they weren’t “set piece battles” but more of raids. As for shujaiyya and Beit Hanoun, the areas saw heavy fighting and a prolonged struggle. With Shujaiyya in particular Hamas publicised footage of them attacking Israeli forces, and even Israeli media uploaded footage of Hamas militants foiling their attempts to blow their cover with drones. Another aspect of Shujaiyya is the sheer military loss for Israel, and it seems confined to the town itself, after Israel withdrew residents saw many destroyed vehicles (Zelda APC in most cases), indicating a major loss of resources and that this was not likely to be Israel moving out of its whim but rather after suffering a heavy blow by guerilla forces.

https://nabd.com/s/139841134-ad8175/الشجاعية.-..-آليات-عسكرية-مدمرة-في-حي-الشجاعية-تركها-الاحتلال-وانسحب

https://www.almayadeen.net/tv-reports/الميادين-ترصد-آليات-الاحتلال-المدمرة-في-حي-الشجاعية-في-غزة

Israel’s claim of killing 150 militants is questionable too, as the health ministry recovered 60 bodies altogether after Israeli forces withdrew. It might not be sufficient, but remember Gaza is not like Ukraine for example with several agencies reporting from within. It is effectively sealed off, and any analysis on the ground can only be done by what is provided by the Israeli military, the media of the Palestinian militants, and the handiwork of the militants in the form of destroyed vehicles and tracks The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 13:45, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

can you send me the wikipedia policy? I'm not familiar with it Rainsage (talk) 21:56, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

This is something I am recalling. I remember Wikipedia editors also bringing it up when talking about not using “decisive”. it should be here

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Military_history The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

thanks! it looks like the only choices are "victory" or "inconclusive". unless there is an RS calling this a "victory", I would advocate leaving this option blank or "inconclusive" and keeping the "territorial changes" as is Rainsage (talk) 21:41, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Videos of destroyed m113 apcs (the only documented losses from the battle, and a very obsolete model of apc, which is no longer used by the IDF for typical combat mission) were published from the battle. There have been reports of israel using these apcs in an unmanned version, for purposes of logistics, demining, and as a *lotering munition*. The loss of several obsolete apcs cannot be used as as an evidence of an alleged "massive equipement loss". You cannot rely on such a sepcific aspect while consoldiating a general conclusion. More aspects should be taken into account in order for the correct conclusions to be made. 188.64.207.94 (talk) 12:28, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I have heard of the “drone bomb” M113’s being used in rafah. Though do note vehicles being targeted have also been published by the qassam brigades military media. The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 06:26, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Paletsinian victory

The definition of the battle's outcome as a palestinian victory relies on an unreliable source. (A news agency with no extpertise or experience in analysis of military conflicts), additionally to the description of the battle's outcome being a decisive detail in the article, and hence, consequently requiring a verification by multiple sources according to wikipedia's guidelines. Another aspect that raises a doubt regarding the use of such a despcription in the article, is the absence of any mention by any authorized military analyst of an alleged hamas victory in the battle, further indicating that the claim of an alleged hamas victory is most likely unreliable.

The continuation of a palestinian control on the area in which the battle took place, does not necessarily rule out the possibility of an israeli success in the offensive (hence contradicting the claim which defines the very presence of palestinian militants as a victory). For instance, a raid, though ususally not leading directly to a territorial change, can be considered a victory, as the withdrawal is planned, and hence isn't a result of a military failure. An achievement of pre-determined objectives, can be labeled as a victory.

Therefore, given the possibility of the battle being a raid, it cannot be certainly determined whether the withdrawal was planned in advance, or else series of military failures have prevented the IDF from achieving its objective.

I suggest, to change the outcome of the battle to "inconclusive" or mention each side's claim. 188.64.207.94 (talk) 12:20, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Double-Disambiguation

@Elli I am a bit curious about the recent edit you made in changing the title from the 2nd battle of shuja'iyya to just the battle of shuja'iyya. Namely you said that the disambiguation "implies something that isn't the case". Could you elaborate on this? Genabab (talk) 17:24, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Sure. "Second Battle of Shuja'iyya (2024)" implies that there was another "Second Battle of Shuja'iyya" but in a different year. That isn't true though; there isn't another event that anyone really calls the "Second Battle of Shuja'iyya". Elli (talk | contribs) 17:25, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh I see. I seem to have misunderstood the edit then. I thought you were saying the problem came from the title implying that there was a second battle of shuja'iyaa as opposed to the title implying there were multiple "Second Battles of Shuja'iyya"

In that case, would it not make more sense to just say "second battle of shuja'iyya". As this is the second time the IDF has fought Palestinian militant groups in shuja'iyya during this war. Genabab (talk) 17:30, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that, though then the first battle should just be at "First battle of Shuja'iyya". If you think that would be a better title I suggest you open a requested move with both pages. Elli (talk | contribs) 18:34, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Move name to Second Battle of Shuja'iyya

Requested move 11 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. If there's any additional content to be included in the lead to clarify that there weren't two wars, I have no objection to that. (closed by non-admin page mover) Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 05:40, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

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Battle of Shuja'iyya (2024) → Second Battle of Shuja'iyya – This is the 2nd Battle in Shuja'iyya during this war and thus ought to be called as such. The previous post called it 2nd Battle of Shuja'iyya (2024) which @Elli objected to as it implies there were multiple second battles of shuja'iyya, so it would be good if we avoid adding a year to the name. Genabab (talk) 23:01, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support There was a battle for the city in 2014, so in a certain sense, the Battle of Shuja'iyya (2023) was a "second battle", but they were of course during different wars. As far as I can tell, the only time there have been two battles for the city in the same war is during the current war, so the move makes sense. Gödel2200 (talk) 22:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• comment: my concern with the proposed title is that it would lead readers to believe there have only been 2 battles in Shuja'iyya, even though there are actually 3 listed on wikipedia Rainsage (talk) 00:44, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Rainsage To be fair, this is somewhat of a small problem as the infobo and introduction state that it would have occurred during specifically the Israel-Hamas War in 2024. Genabab (talk) 14:06, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 August 2024

Change result to: Palestinian victory 217.150.82.133 (talk) 21:55, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. MadGuy7023 (talk) 22:20, 13 August 2024 (UTC)