Talk:Battle of Quebec (ice hockey)

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A fact from Battle of Quebec (ice hockey) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 19 February 2011 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the month after the Montreal Canadiens lost to their provincial rivals, the Quebec Nordiques, in the 1982 NHL playoffs, Quebec's beer consumption fell by 9.5 percent?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2011/February.

Wikipedia

WHA years

I'm surprised there's nothing here about the upstart of the WHA and the Nordiques raiding the roster of the Canadiens in the league's early years, taking several players, the WHA changing their uniform design to draw "sovereigntist" fans against the "fedaralist" image of the Canadiens during the 70s. Also the part about the breweries that is currently at the end should be at the part where it says Molson tried to block Quebec from entering the league. The television wars that followed should be included too. The rivalry was as much fought off the ice as on.Djob (talk) 17:12, 14 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Found some sources on raiding, the Nordiques' uniform change, and television disputes and added those things in. Thanks for the great suggestions. As for the breweries part, I'd prefer to leave it where it is since there is a time gap between the merger details and what is in that paragraph, which largely takes place in the 1980s. Giants2008 (Talk) 16:47, 3 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

End?

It didn't end, it just transmuted, and isn't NHL focused anymore. There's the Serie Quebec-Montreal that happens every year. 70.24.247.40 (talk) 02:24, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the NHL rivalry is the focus of the article, and that part did end (unless Quebec gets another team in the future). I did tweak the section heading that mentioned the end, and added a brief sentence on the TV show. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 18:23, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved Mike Cline (talk) 18:50, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Quebec (ice hockey) → Canadiens–Nordiques rivalry – The reason I have requested this page be moved is I think that the current name is not used all that much, at least outside of Quebec. Nuggets56 16:50, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Disagree. Throughout all of Canada, and perhaps the majority of the hockey world, the rivalry was/is referred to as The Battle of Quebec. No move is necessary. ChakaKong^talk 17:14, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Unconvincing reason. I'd want to see real data, not just your personal POV. Additionally, usage within Quebec would be very relevant to the proper name of the article. Reso lute 18:19, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here's some "real" data for both of you to see right here Since the Battle of Quebec wasn't used as the name for the rivalry in that article, then what is the current name for it? Nuggets56 19:43, 22 September 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nuggets56 (talk • contribs)

Funny, but the example you provided actually refers to the rivalry as the Battle of Quebec. ChakaKong^talk 20:03, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You forgot to mention it says "so-called" when it mentions that. Next time, read the whole article instead of cherry-picking what helps your argument. Nuggets56 (Nuggets56) —Preceding undated comment added 20:16, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that it says so-called still supports his argument since its indicating that that is the name people know it by. -DJSasso (talk) 12:08, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of whether so called is used the article did use the term Battle of Quebec indicating that the rivalry was known as the Battle or Quebec. The fact that this one article used the term so called does not prove that this is not best known under the current title. Also as mentioned bellow several US publication use the current term strongly indicating that the current term is well known for this rivalry.--70.49.73.84 (talk) 20:07, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – As the article's creator and primary contributor, I've seen enough sources refer to the rivalry as the Battle of Quebec to believe that it is common usage in the hockey world. This is not limited to Canada; I've seen articles in the Hartford Courant, Los Angeles Times, Sports Illustrated, and Chicago Tribune that all call the rivalry by that name. Clearly, the Battle of Quebec was a widely used name even in the U.S., which invalidates the main argument for moving the page. This doesn't even take into account the many Canadian sources that use the name, which as Resolute says should not be overlooked since these are a pair of Canadian teams. Giants2008 (Talk) 20:37, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Per above.--Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 20:51, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose WP:UCN, consistency with Battle of Alberta and Battle of Ontario. It should be called Battle of Quebec (hockey) per WP:ENGVAR North American English uses the term "hockey" to refer to "ice hockey" as its common name. -- 76.65.131.248 (talk) 22:43, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- We've actually decided within the hockey project to always use "ice hockey" as a standard disambiguator for consistency. While one can very safely assume that "hockey" refers to the ice game when focused on a Canadian topic, the multitude of codes (ice, field, roller, sledge) makes it preferable to be consistent in this regard. Resolute 23:28, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  - Then Battle of Quebec (hockey) should atleast redirect here. -- 76.65.131.248 (talk) 00:08, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    - That is easily done. Reso lute 22:26, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, as sources provide that Battle of Quebec is the most common descriptive. GoodDay (talk) 22:54, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Only thing I would rename it to is possibly Battle of Quebec (hockey), "ice hockey" is the primary topic for hockey.--ZooFamily (talk) 20:33, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It could work. The likely reason that ice hockey was used is that Hockey is a general article covering several types of hockey (ice, filed, street, sledge etc) while Ice hockey is the more specific article. However, I doubt there will be much confusion about the type of hockey be covered with an article Battle of Quebec (hockey) since anyone knowledgeable of Quebec would know that sledge and field hockey etc is out, and while it may be popular with neighbourhood kids a street hockey rivalry would not be a topic of a Wikipedia article. In short removing ice from the title should not cause confusion. At the very least though we should create a redirect as previously mentioned.--70.49.73.84 (talk) 21:36, 23 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose This is clearly the common name of this rivalry. Would leave the disambig at ice hockey as well since that is the standard for disambiguating all articles that are about ice hockey. -DJSasso (talk) 12:06, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Focus of the article

I understand why the article is fixated on the sports slant, but the Montreal-Quebec rivalry is much more than that. Everything from mayors to who has the best poutine is disputed between these two, and this ought to be included. I also agree with the other poster above, that the Nordiques rivalry didn't simply end when the team did; especially with talk that they might be making a return.

Someone left a request for such an article at Wikipedia:Canadian Wikipedians' notice board#Requests for articles with the following comments:

counterpart to Battle of Alberta and Battle of Ontario, frequently dealing with hockey (like the "Serie Quebec-Montreal", the Canadiens v Nordiques [and its Good Friday Massacre]) and the political rivalry between Montreal and Quebec City, Montreal and the provincial government

So maybe we could also consider changing its name to Battle of Quebec (culture) or something similar (being that Battle of Quebec already exists)? - Sweet Nightmares 16:09, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not familiar with any reliable sources calling any rivalry between Quebec City and Montreal "the Battle of Quebec", so I'm not sure a different article with this name is warranted. I'm also not familiar with any specific rivalry between the two; of course to make an interesting story, any newspaper/magazine/online article might play up a competitive angle, but generally I believe there is more of a cooperative spirit amongst the citizenry, taking pride in both cities' accomplishments. isaacl (talk) 16:34, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure I have ever heard of any of those things called Battle of Quebec. The only time I have heard that term was in regards to the two hockey teams. -DJSasso (talk) 16:38, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't done any thorough research on the topic, but there absolutely exists a dichotomy between the two, or even between Montreal and the rest of the province in general. Nordiques vs Habs. Lebeaume The Populist vs Rotating Corrupt Mayor of the Moment. Separatists vs Federalists. French vs English. Amalgamation of immigrants from rural Quebec vs Metropolis. Fiscal conservatives vs Liberals. Sometimes it is referred to as the "two solitudes," although that has a more specific meaning. - Sweet Nightmares 18:14, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Separatist vs federalist, French vs English, rural vs urban, and conservatives vs liberals are not specifically Montreal vs Quebec City differences. The two solitudes is specifically about the separation between English and French Canadian cultures, not Montreal and Quebec City. Whereas a number of these issues are suitable subjects for discussion, I do not believe placing this information in an article called "Battle of Quebec" is appropriate. isaacl (talk) 19:10, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I encourage you to read the articles about Ontario and Alberta, linked above, as well as to glance over some of these links. The two solitudes is part of the culture war in Quebec, thus it would be relevant to the article. - Sweet Nightmares 19:26, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree a discussion of the different cultures in Quebec is a notable subject to cover, but as I stated, I don't believe the moniker "Battle of Quebec" is suitable. I think one of the existing articles on Quebec culture or politics would be a better place for this. isaacl (talk) 20:30, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Then should we also change the titles of the Ontario and Alberta articles? Because sports and politics are not 100% separate, especially not here where such a large part of the Québécois identity is invested in hockey. Do you happen to have access to Le Devoir? I think this article would prove to be a good example of it, but I can't see the full article. I'd also like to point out that I am not the original one who made this suggestion, as I said, I was doing cleanup on Wikipedia:Canadian Wikipedians' notice board#Requests for articles and noticed that this article already existed. So I removed it from the list and posted the comments here for posterity. - Sweet Nightmares 22:06, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Ontario article is entirely hockey with no mention of any other cultural rivalry. While the Alberta page seems to be a catch all for the rivalry between Edmonton and Calgary the page is poorly referenced with several dead links its hard to gauge how much of the rivalry is actually referred to as the Battle of Alberta. As a further addendum I know a user has considered splitting the hockey section from the Alberta and making a Battle of Alberta (ice hockey) page. There is an agreement that a Montreal-Quebec City Rivalry page has enough info to be made, the concern is over wp:common name. Since there are two distinct military battles with the name Battle of Quebec it makes a Google search for cultural rivalries between the two cities under the name difficult to find. Not being not being close to Quebec, or Canadian for that matter, its difficult to assess if these things are routinely called "battle of" or if they should be just placed under a blanket catch all of Montreal-Quebec City Rivalry. Perhaps I'm wrong but it seems that a general title containing all political, cultural, et al, that has a small section on the ice hockey with a "main article:" header directing to this page, given isaacl's rational that the name isn't universally applied, is more appropriate. --Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 14:36, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that various of the subjects mentioned are suitable for coverage in separate articles, but I'm not clear that a Montreal—Quebec City rivalry is notable. Quebec residents tend to frame their rivalries in terms of those outside of Quebec, rather than within. isaacl (talk) 15:26, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, my intent when starting this article was to have it be about the hockey rivalry, not about a larger Montreal–Quebec cultural rivalry. Some of that information would be useful as background, but a larger topic would be better explored in a different article, as a couple of other editors have already said. Giants2008 (Talk) 23:06, 23 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]