Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 22

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Media Matters for America

I encountered a reversion stating that "back-and-forth spats" with "partisan organizations" weren't the "right direction. I think that Media Matters for America is notable, and since two of their top front-page articles cite issues with the accuracy of certain media reports about Obama and the Rezko case they are certainly relevant. If anyone has a problem with this please explain. Wnt (talk) 19:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Media Matters is a blog.... Is it really a reliable source? --Bobblehead ^(rants) 19:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Media Matters is reported on by third party media sources.[1] Wikipedia describes it as "a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization founded in 2004 by journalist and author David Brock." You're telling me that's a blog? I didn't even purge the crummy references with "blog" in their name from the Jeremiah Wright controversy and nobody commented on my mention of them in the talk page. Wnt (talk) 20:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Hey, Wnt. I'm glad you expanded the paragraph a bit, but don't understand why back-and-forth spats between background partisans like Media Matters for America and John Kass warrant such detail. The Media Matters source (whose reliability I'm sure some might challenge) defends Obama, but the sentence "Obama is accused of no wrongdoing" already covers the point they're trying to make. Shem^(talk) 20:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I think it's worth mentioning when a talking heads on two major news outlets each falsely accuse Obama of essentially taking a bribe in two different ways, each based on what turns out to be clearly false information, when these inconsistencies are each noted by a well known "media watchdog" organization. It speaks to the general reliability of the press in the United States and has an impact on the Obama campaign. Wnt (talk) 20:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Brevity is important. The two sources you mention, even granting both are WP:RS report different facts. And a hundred other sources each report their own variation or opinion. We can't discuss every nuance of what every source purports, and the "Obama is accused of no wrongdoing" does a good job in summing up the media consensus. When there's any doubt, fewer words is always better than more words in an encyclopedia (or in any good writing). LotLE×talk 20:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Anyone can register as a 501(c)(3), so that's not a very good indicator of reliability.But anywho, their reliability is probably something that shouldn't be discussed on this talk page, there's a whole noticeboard for that. If Media Matters is complaining about inaccuracies in a reporter's story, shouldn't that be covered in the article about the reporter, not the person who is the target of the inaccuracies? --Bobblehead ^(rants) 20:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the standards for 501(c)(3) are fairly strict (501(c)(6) is much easier to get). I am happy to accept that Media Matters meets WP:RS, and moreover that a MM refutation of another source casts that other source as last reliable. However, we can avoid the issue by simply omitting all of the back-and-forth over he says/she says on exact land values and the like. LotLE×talk 20:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The paragraph I had was this. (I tried putting up half of it with no mention of MM and they reverted that immediately also, claiming the remaining sources were "partisan". Like I can cover a partisan dispute without mentioning some partisan sources?

The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer and Obama fundraiser, Tony Rezko. This deal provoked media scrutiny of Obama's relationship with Rezko, a top adviser to Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich, who was convicted in June 2008 of fraud and money laundering. Although no wrongdoing was alleged in relation to his campaign, Obama has donated $150,000 in Rezko-related contributions to charity. In an interview with CNN host Glenn Beck, Chicago Tribune columnist John Kass stated that Obama had received "around" $300,000 or "maybe $150,000" discount on the purchase and that Rezko's wife had paid $300,000 more. Media Matters for America criticized this statement, citing reports that Obama made the best offer for the property and Rezko's wife paid the $625,000 asking price for the adjacent land and subsequently sold five-sixths of it for $575,000. The group also disputed Mitt Romney's statement to Fox & Friends that Rezko financed Obama's house, citing a $1.32 mortgage Obama and his wife took out with the Northern Trust Company.

From this I managed to slip one fact in past the deletionists - that Obama didn't just pay off all his debts and show up with a $1.6 million house without taking out a correspondingly expensive mortgage. The current version does not mention that Fox and Friends (like Wikipedia) made it sound like this was some kind of a gift from Rezko. I still think that apparent news sources are lying about this guy is worthy of note. Wnt (talk) 20:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

You didn't have to "slip it in" past anyone; standing alone, it's a perfectly relevant fact to include. So far's the lies go? Sure, people're going to tell lies about him (he's a presidential candidate), but are we to say it's notable every time someone does such? Shem^(talk) 21:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Shem here. I'm sure that some major news sources are either lying or doing really bad fact checking. While that is perhaps notable in articles about those sources, it's not a matter about Obama. There are going to be hundreds of thousands of misreported facts in the course of the subsequent campaign (about both candidates, FWIW)... we can't have the biographies details every incorrect thing said by every mainstream source. An encyclopedia needs to float at a slight detachment from microscopy about such details. LotLE×talk 21:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. We don't need to cover every single organization's coverage. Fishal (talk) 23:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

How anyone can consider John Kass to be an anti-Obama "partisan" is beyond belief. He is the head political reporter for the Chicago Tribune and he is equally critical of both Republicans and Democrats. He has extremely harsh words for "the Illinois Combine," a term he coined to describe the alliance between Illinois Democrats and Republicans to share power and wealth, trade favors, and in general, do everything that we despise politicians for doing. Kossack4Truth (talk) 14:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Personal Life and Rezko and Blagojevich

The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer and Obama fundraiser, Tony Rezko. This deal provoked media scrutiny of Obama's relationship with Rezko, a top adviser to Illinois governor Rod Blagojevich, who was convicted in June 2008 of fraud and money laundering.

The second sentence above says that Blagojevich was convicted of fraud and money laundering. Either the relative clause should be moved to the end of the preceding sentence so that it clearly refers to Rezko or the reference to Rezko's connection to Blagojevich should be removed. Given that this article is about Obama, not Rezko, and that this sole mention of Blagojevich refers to his association with Rezko, not Obama, I'm going to remove it.

If someone sees fit to restore the mention of Blagojevich, please do not place it immediately before an adjective clause that libels him. ForDorothy (talk) 02:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I was wrong. Ignore me, please. ForDorothy (talk) 02:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Shame on you Wikipedia, Barack Obama is INTERRACIAL

Barack Obama is Interracial (half-White, half-Black) and should be recognized as such. A Wikipedia contributer said that "we are obligated to accept whatever the well-sourced sources are publishing, if we choose to accept their word." What are these "well-sourced sources"? Associated Press (AP), CNN, etc.? If so, THEY ARE WRONG. Are you going to post that Barack Obama is (only) African-American based on AP, CNN, etc., or use the BEST source for his racial background, his birth certificate and his own biography? I have been disgusted with AP, CNN, and other news agencies constantly referring to Barack as only African-American/Black. Are both his parents Black? No. One is White, so Barack is ***INTERRACIAL***. I thought that at least Wikipedia would report the facts correctly, but I see that Wikipedia also is an UNRELIABLE resource and tainted by the mass media instead of being an independent, accurate source of information. Shame on you Wikipedia! This is a perfect example of the "one-drop rule" that carries on from America's racist past. Despite Barack having a White parent and a Black parent, I have never heard any news agency refer to him as White. They always refer to him as Black. They (and Wikipedia) are completely denying half of Obama's racial makeup, essentially denying that his mother ever existed. Is the media calling Obama "Black" because his wife is Black? If so, that argument cannot hold. I am Interracial (half-White, half-Black) and my wife is Filipino, but neither I (nor anyone else) can call myself (me) Filipino. I am Interracial because of my parents' ethnicity. Even if Obama more closely identifies himself with African-Americans, that does not define his racial identify. As another poster mentioned, if I am one race (i.e. White), I cannot call myself Asian even if I completely embrace Asian culture. We need to identify Barack Obama as Interracial (half-White, half-Black), a true unifier of the two races in the U.S. that have been divided for too long. Wikipedia, it is unbelievable that this is even a discussion topic. Report the facts and stop being wrongly influenced by the major (polarizing) news agencies. Khjp95 (talk) 18:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

They're perpetuating racism. So, in essence, they're all racists. 71.195.153.149 (talk) 18:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

We're not here to make social policy. He self-identifies as African American, the Senate Historian refers to him as such, the New York Times report of his election as first black president of the Harvard Law Review uses that terminology - etc. No one is denying his Caucasian parent - in fact for a very long time this article included a quote from him that said "That my father looked nothing like the people around me—that he was black as pitch, my mother white as milk—barely registered in my mind." and I was sorry to see it removed because I think it addresses the issue well. Tvoz/talk 19:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This article doesnt stand a chance

Im sorry to say this, I really am. I cant quite believe that a consensus couldnt even be reached on the single issue we voted over. Obama is at the Most important stage of his life and we cant even edit the article because of the pov pushing on both sides. If this continues I will seriously consider having the article reassessed. --— Realist² (Come Speak To Me) 21:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Been there, done that. All links to it have been airbrushed out of the infobox, but if you already know what happened you can still find it: [2][3]. Andyvphil (talk) 23:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Why no mention of OBAMA's political mentor and major fund raiser Tony Rezko

I guess it's ok to keep Obama's friends and past associates, important in his rise to political stardom off this bio. The more stuff like this is suppressed, [4] [5]the more people will realize the phoniness of the process and those who are doing this.68.75.164.178 (talk) 23:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Rezko is mentioned in this article. Certainly you know there is a Tony Rezko article - you were just editing it.http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Tony_Rezko&diff=217180610&oldid=217165256 There goes your theory that the truth is being suppressed. You seem to be quite happy to use this "phony process" to make that article reflect more negatively on its subject. Perhaps you can actually help improve the encyclopedia instead of airing unfounded grievances about it. Wikidemo (talk) 00:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Unfounded Grievance, nice to see the Ad houminm attack on an editor with a reasonable question right out of the box and make assumptions that only positive stuff should be on Obama's pretty bio (while other political office holders bios on wikipedia are treated, less kindly). Tony Rezko, a Convicted felon, was (is) a very close friend and business associate and close political mentor of the untouchable Obama [6]. This should be noted and it is relevant and part of this mans resume. Lets not forget Obama is the product of the Cook County Democratic Organization, and all of it's ways... lets stick with the subject and lay off the editorializing of my motives or reasons... let the words speak and lets stop the double standards which would seem wikipeida is famous for now.(talk) 16:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Give it a rest. You can't expect anyone to take you seriously when you rant about the "phoniness" of Wikipedia and do nothing here but try to disparage Obama. You might also want to look up what ad hominem means. Wikidemo (talk) 17:48, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, ad hominem is an appropriate characterization. 68.75's argues his point regarding the "phoniness" of the process and contributors at Wikipedia on the grounds that there is a suppression of a certain class of notable information in this article. You're attacking him personally for daring to state that there is something phony about Wikipedia and for presenting his view that some information that might reflect on Obama in a negative way for some readers should be included in the article. Those are ad hominem distractions. Also, just because Rezko et al. are mentioned in the article does not mean that there is appropriate WP:WEIGHT given to them. --Floorsheim (talk) 18:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It looks like you could use a brush-up on the definition as well. An ad hominem is an attack on the person rather than the message. It's not a generalized term for a strong rebuke. Calling a grievance "unfounded" and a "rant" is an appropriate response to the absurd claim that the existence of less disparagement of Obama than somebody wants means that Wikipedia process and Wikipedia editors are phony. Making those kinds of claims is counterproductive because they won't be taken seriously by anyone who is not similarly convinced, and they serve only to stir up discontent and not to encourage meaningful discussion or improve the article. Not to mention they're based on something blatantly untrue. The poster clearly knows better because he or she had just edited material about Rezko before claiming it doesn't exist.Wikidemo (talk) 18:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Putting words in my mouth and insinuating motive with out forethought. Thats very 1984, Thought Crime accusations, yes? I read Saul Alinskyand Rules for Radicals too? "Accuse the accuser of the very thing you do and cloud the augment and draw attention away from the thing you don't want discussed? I was born and raised on the south side of Chicago, I know, first hand the political crucible Mr Obama was ween on... I can tell you for a fact what you see is not what you get. Rezko relationship is the tip of that (Obama's) world and the underbelly of Obama's political training. You mark my words, there will be more and I can tell you it's just as juicy, You see...(for some insider stuff, Mr Obama has an almost uncontrolled, fiery temper which I suspect will be exploited to help MR O put his boot in is mouth)... Any rate, you should stick with the argument and stop trying to stick it to me with your wikislander.68.75.164.178 (talk) 04:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

But you were attacking him as a person. You were insinuating that he is a bad or unhelpful person for attempting to make the points he is trying to make rather than focusing specifically on what he said and why you felt it was incorrect or unhelpful.

That said, I do agree that it is not useful to attack Wikipedia and contributors as "phony". But I would also avoid inflammatory descriptions of another contributor's positions (especially those of someone new, as per WP:BITE), even those I saw as counterproductive, such as by referring to them as rants. --Floorsheim (talk) 22:40, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

In 68.75..'s defense, while Rezko is mentioned in the article, many contributors are dissatisfied with the amount of information presented concerning the controversy surrounding Obama's relationship with him and feel that it is an case of bias. --Floorsheim (talk) 05:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I've added a bit more about the case to the article[7], based on the source cited. It should be noted that the relevant discussion of the Rezko case pertaining to Obama is really not very much against him, since he has not been accused of any wrongdoing and simply received money from a well-known Democratic fundraiser that he donated to charity after his background became known.

It would interesting to see is how many other high profile Democrats lived near Obama and Rezko. Do they have their own little neighborhood? Wnt (talk) 19:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The neighborhood is Hyde Park. Have you seen the NJ article?

Just FYI, Obama has not donated all the money bundled by Rezko. Not even all the money he agrees to have been bundled by Rezko, and that list is clearly incomplete (one of the Chicago paper articles mentions donations by Rezko employees and associates on the same day where some were on Obama's list and some were not). E.g., drawn the line at disgorging donations to campaigns that have closed their books. The order of magnitude of the non-disgorged donations is at least 6 figures. Andyvphil (talk) 01:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Another attempt to build consensus on Rezko details

Tony Rezko has been found guilty on 16 of 24 felony counts related to political fundraising. There are two bribery convictions, two money laundering convictions, and 12 fraud convictions. Over 1,000 Google News hits for Obama and Rezko. LA Times, Chicago Tribune, AP, AFP, CNN, ABC News and Reuters.

AFP: Obama friend, fundraiser found guilty of fraud, bribery

AP: Jury: Rezko guilty of 16 counts in corruption case

As a second example of Scjessey's initiative, I would like to initiate a meaningful discussion on how much Rezko-related text there should be. Consider these options please:

1. No mention at all.
2. Personal life section: The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer and Obama supporter, Tony Rezko. This deal provoked media scrutiny of Obama's relationship with Rezko, who was convicted in June 2008 for fraud and money laundering.
3. Early life section: The firm represented, and senior partner Allison S. Davis became a business partner with, Tony Rezko's Rezmar Corporation. Obama did some work representing Davis in his negotiations with Rezmar and also a small amount of work directly for Rezmar. Presidential campaign section: Obama also faced scrutiny for his relationship with political fundraiser Tony Rezko. Rezko, who was convicted in June 2008 for fraud and money laundering charges related to political fundraising, had raised over $250,000 for Obama's political campaigns through the years. Obama has not been implicated in any wrongdoing. Personal life section: The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer and Obama supporter, Tony Rezko. This deal provoked the earliest media scrutiny of Obama's relationship with Rezko.
4. Early life section: The firm represented, and senior partner Allison S. Davis became a business partner with, Tony Rezko's Rezmar Corporation. Obama did some work representing Davis in his negotiations with Rezmar and also a small amount of work directly for Rezmar. Presidential campaign section: Obama also faced scrutiny for his relationship with political fundraiser Tony Rezko. Rezko, who was convicted in June 2008 for fraud and money laundering charges related to political fundraising, had raised over $250,000 for Obama's political campaigns through the years, starting with the first day of fundraising for Obama's first campaign. Obama has not been implicated in any wrongdoing. Personal life section: The Obamas received a $300,000 discount and paid only $1.6 million for the house. The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer and Obama supporter, Tony Rezko, for full price. This deal provoked the earliest media scrutiny of Obama's relationship with Rezko.

You can see we have a sliding scale of increasing detail and negativity. We need to come to an agreement about how far along that scale we want to go, and then duplicate the process with all remining "controversies" such as Jeremiah Wright and Michelle Obama. Please consider these options and express your preference below. Kossack4Truth (talk) 00:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Express your preference below

1. I cannot perceive any "scale" in the provided options. I guess there is a certain scale from "concise and encyclopedic" to "verbose with digressions". On that scale, No. 2 looks about right. However "personal life" is definitely the wrong section: "early life" is probably best, but "prez campaign" also has some sense to it. What we need is no more than 50 words (of main text, footnotes might have some extra words for the citation), and all in one section. LotLE×talk 00:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
2. No. 4. Now that Rezko has been convicted, the mainstream news media are definitely linking Obama with Rezko, and calling Rezko Obama's "friend" and "fundraiser." ABC News lists this story third on their web page: Fixer With Obama Ties Found Guilty The New York Times also listed this story third: Fund-Raiser Convicted in Illinois Bribery Scheme The Guardian also listed it third on their homepage: Developer with Ties to Obama Convicted In Chicago Yahoo News has listed the AP wire version fourth on their homepage: Political fundraiser convicted in corruption trial Google News has now installed the Rezko/Obama AP version as the Banner Headline across the top of its homepage. [8] Political fundraiser convicted in corruption trial In the past hour, the number of Google News hits for "Obama + Rezko" jumped from 1,115 to 1,350. This is a major event for the campaign. Obama is always mentioned in the lead sentence, if not the headline, of all major news media websites' stories about the Rezko conviction. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC) UPDATE The number of Google News hits "Obama + Rezko" is over 1,500 this morning. BBC News: Obama fund-raiser guilty of fraud Washington Post: Former Obama Fundraiser Convicted of Corruption I will keep everyone posted regarding the first poll results taken after the Rezko conviction. Kossack4Truth (talk) 13:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
3. No. 4. A good and concise list of choices. This will reduce the arguing back and forth, and drive discussion to a prompt and decisive conclusion. 70.9.72.38 (talk) 01:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC) (first edit by this IP address)
4. No. 4. Fairly reflects the connection. It is me i think (talk) 01:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
5. No. 2, and whatever text is chosen, only one section of the article. It's undue weight of the nastiest kind when Rezko's name is mentioned in every other section of Obama's article. Shem^(talk) 02:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
6. No. 4, but I could easily accept No. 3 or accept No. 2. Shem makes a good point about one section. Readers would get a better picture of the relationship with all the major elements we know about in one spot. I see no value in separating them just because something happened at one point and something else happened at another point. I like No. 4 best because it mentions that Rezko was an early supporter. Early support is something a politician should be much more grateful for. The early money can get poured back into more fundraising or vital early publicity that then generates more money. Early supporters of Ronald Reagan got some appointments in his administrations (William French Smith was one, I think), and the New York Times recently had an article about an early supporteer of McCain, some land developer McCain did quite a few favors for. Noroton (talk) 02:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
7. My view is that the nature of the Rezko relationship belongs in the Personal Life section. The impact on the campaign belongs in the campaign section. I think No. 2 does a good job of the former. I don't yet see what I would consider a good solution for the latter. Too many details in No. 3 and No. 4. To me, what needs to be expressed is the nature of the deal itself, who it involved and what they have been convicted of, and the fact that Obama has faced scrutiny concerning this. Doing that in the fewest possible words providing the clearest possible picture and in the logically relevant sections should be the goal. also strongly support including "Obama has not been implicated in any wrongdoing." --Floorsheim (talk) 06:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
8. No. 4. It's the only one that gives sufficient details to explain to the reader why the Rezko/Obama connection is so controversial. Rezko, Ayers and Dohrn were involved in Obama's political career from Day One. All three committed felonies. As Evelyn Pringle observed, "Rezko is Obama's political Godfather." Good work finding that source, Kos, and even better work limiting the number of options here. In doing so, you have also limited the amount of bickering, nitpicking and Wikilawyering. Brilliant. WorkerBee74 (talk) 12:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
9. No. 2 Number 4 seems ridiculously long and includes a lot of crap people don't want to have to sift through if they're just trying to find out about Obama. --Ubiq (talk) 10:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
10. #2 is appropriate for this article; Shem makes a good point about one section. Tvoz/talk 18:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
11. No. 4 is the only appropriate choice for this article due to extensive news media coverage. McCain and the 527s are bound to Swiftboat Obama about this. 68.31.80.187 (talk) 22:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC) (only contribution by editor is vote in polls on this page)
12. No. 4 is closest to acceptable, although I would not allow the use of the word "discount". There is no clear evidence that I am aware of that Obama got his house at a below-market price. Rezko did Obama a favor, and probably paid more than the land was worth to him in order to do so, but that doesn't mean that Obama got a discount. Andyvphil (talk) 00:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
13. No. 4. The asking price was $1.9 million. Obama offered $1.6 million and the offer was accepted. If that isn( a "discount," what is it? 70.9.18.59 (talk) 12:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

    It was a reduction in asking price. If candy bars are selling all over the city for $1 and I'm asking $1.50, but accept your offer of $1, you haven't received a discount -- you're paying full market price. If I offer to sell them to you at 75 cents each if you buy 10, then that's a (volume) discount. The reference point is market price, not asking price. There are no RS saying the actual value of the property was $1.9M. There are aspects of the story and deal that don't pass the sniff test, but no other known offers as high as $1.6M and no reported comps or other evidence that $1.6M was too low. And the story os that Rezko took over a preexisting option on the lot at the same price -- what he supplied was ready money to proceed on the desired date, not a higher price. May or may not be true, but no RS says otherwise and neither can we. Andyvphil (talk) 13:27, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

14. Option #1. No mention. This is a biography; Rezko is an insignificant part of his life story. The only party that wants to make it significant is politically motivated by current events. Life.temp (talk) 13:04, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments below

Please keep your comments civil. I had the luxury of watching Scjessey's giant stride forward over the past few days. It has collapsed into more feuding but I think we can reach a reaonable compromise. Kossack4Truth (talk) 00:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Also would like to say I appreciate Scjessey's and others' showing of deference for Kossack's inclusion in the discussions and general contributions to the consensus-building process. --Floorsheim (talk) 06:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment Can we wait until the discussion on how to handle Ayers is done before we start the discussion on Rezko? It's already confusing enough to try and follow the Ayers discussion and trying to track both this and the Rezko discussion is only going to make it harder to find consensus on both topics. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 01:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC) I have moved Bobblehead's comment to this section. Hope he doesn't mind. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Bobblehead, I believe we should move this along faster, particularly since Rezko just got convicted. We are all intelligent people, we can discuss both Rezko and Ayers simultaneously. Kossack4Truth (talk) 01:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

What's your hurry? There is no reason to hurry these discussions along and increase the heat of the ongoing discussions by conflating the two different discussions. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 01:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not hurrying the discussions along. I think the Ayers matter could stand at least another day of discussion, maybe two. I'm just opening a "second front," so that the editors who feel like discussing something besides the Ayers matter can do so. The Rezko matter is rapidly developing now. Kossack4Truth (talk) 02:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any harm in starting the discussion. Others can join in later. I don't think this will be as controversial (famous last words).Noroton (talk) 02:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the sentence Obama has not been implicated in any wrongdoing. should be moved up and tacked on to the end of the first sentence in the passages of #3 and #4 where it appears. I don't want readers to start thinking that Obama was involved in the matters that came up in the trial. Noroton (talk) 02:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

None of the options presented above seem realistic to me. As far as Barack Obama is concerned, there are only two salient facts that concern Tony Rezko:

1. A property deal that Obama later described as a "boneheaded" mistake.
2. Rezko's role as an important fundraiser earlier in Obama's political career.

Obama's lawyer work for Rezmar Corp was unremarkable, so it isn't notable enough on its own to justify inclusion. Rezko's recent conviction did not implicate or involve Obama, so there is no reason for it to be included either - particularly as doing so would create a conflation that would result in undue weight concerns. So apart from the property deal and the fundraising, none of the other details concerning Rezko are biographically relevant. Since the two related facts do not seem to be directly connected, a concise inclusion would seem to be difficult. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a problem that a good writer can solve...how to include "difficult" material into text.Tack69 (talk) 17:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Obama's work for Rezmar shows that his relationship with Rezko reaches beyond fundraising and the deal on the house. These two men were closely linked in many ways. 70.9.18.59 (talk) 12:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

No mention. This is a biography; Rezko is an insignificant part of his life story. The only party that wants to make it significant is politically motivated. Life.temp (talk) 12:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

ACU and ADA

This article presently mentions that National Journal ranked Obama as the most liberal Senator, and mentions that Obama expressed doubts about the ranking's methodology. But why focus here on National Journal only? Why not the ADA and ACU? I haven't looked at the ratings of Obama from the ADA and ACU yet, but we should all agree that they're very notable.

"The question of how to measure a senator's or representative's ideology is one that political scientists regularly need to answer. For more than 30 years, the standard method for gauging ideology has been to use the annual ratings of lawmakers' votes by various interest groups, notably the Americans for Democratic Action (ADA) and the American Conservative Union (ACU)."

Mayer, William. "Kerry's Record Rings a Bell", Washington Post, (2004-03-28). Retrieved 2008-05-12.

Any objections if we describe the ADA and ACU ratings here?Ferrylodge (talk) 15:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's a pretty exhaustive run-down of Obama's ratings, which includes the ACU and ADA. Here're McCain's, too. Shem^(talk) 19:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I just checked the ADA and ACU ratings. Based on his years in the Senate (2005, 2006, and 2007)Obama has a lifetime average conservative rating of 7.67% from the ACU,[9][10][11] and a lifetime average liberal rating of 90% from the ADA.[12][13][14] I'll add this to the article unless there is any objection.Ferrylodge (talk) 20:21, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd say it's a good idea, but could I suggest giving a day's time for more editors to weigh in? Shem^(talk) 20:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Sure.Ferrylodge (talk) 20:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Cool; 5PM tomorrow, then. Does McCain's article include his ratings, too? If not, let's make this same proposal over there. Shem^(talk) 20:37, 6 June 2008 (UTC) Edit: It does. The wording follows:

Various interest groups have given Senator McCain scores or grades as to how well his votes align with the positions of the group. The American Conservative Union awarded McCain a lifetime rating of 82 percent through 2007, while McCain has an average lifetime 13 percent "Liberal Quotient" from Americans for Democratic Action through 2007 (see chart for progressions over time).

Looks like the work's been done for us, all we need to do is swap the names and ratings. We could even do charts, apparently. Shem^(talk) 20:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I added the ADA ratings a few months back, but it was edit warred out. As I recall Obama has voted against the ADA only once in 60 votes (in favor of MFN for...Quatar?...in 2006), but missed five votes of the 20 in 2007. So his cumulative 54/60 understates his degree of agreement with the ADA, which is really 54 of 55. Andyvphil (talk) 13:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

(undent)It's 5:30 PM where I am, so I'll go ahead and insert some stuff into the article about this. When the page is unprotected, this is what I plan to add:

---

“ A standard method that political scientists use for gauging ideology is to compare the annual ratings by the Americans for Democratic Action (ADA) with the ratings by the American Conservative Union (ACU).[1] Based on his years in Congress (i.e. 2005, 2006, and 2007), Senator Obama has a lifetime average conservative rating of 7.67% from the ACU,[2] and a lifetime average liberal rating of 90% from the ADA.[3] ”

[1]Mayer, William. "Kerry's Record Rings a Bell", Washington Post, (2004-03-28): "The question of how to measure a senator's or representative's ideology is one that political scientists regularly need to answer. For more than 30 years, the standard method for gauging ideology has been to use the annual ratings of lawmakers' votes by various interest groups, notably the Americans for Democratic Action (ADA) and the American Conservative Union (ACU)." Retrieved 2008-06-07.

[2]“2005 U.S. Senate Votes”, American Conservative Union; “2006 U.S. Senate Votes”, American Conservative Union; “2007 U.S. Senate Votes”, American Conservative Union. Retrieved 2008-06-07.

[3]“ADA’s 2005 Congressional Voting Record”, Americans for Democratic Action; “ADA’s 2006 Congressional Voting Record”, Americans for Democratic Action; “ADA’s 2007 Congressional Voting Record”, Americans for Democratic Action. Retrieved 2008-06-07.

---

Ferrylodge (talk) 21:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This addition looks helpful, neutral, and relevant to me. LotLE×talk 05:16, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Dumb edit wars

This whole dispute is incredible. It has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the article, and it is entirely to do with the fact that Obama just won the nomination. I'm a realist, and I think that this edit war is really dumb. Wikidea 23:58, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

If WP:BLP means something then when if re-add an edit after being told that it is an unsourced violation of the policy,[15] and if an admin agrees it really is a violation of the policy, then maybe it's time for some kind of block - at least enough to remind people that 3RR and vandalism really aren't the only two meaningful policies on Wikipedia. Wnt (talk) 00:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Unlocking of this article.

I am the protector of this article. I am going to unprotect this article, but I will only do this after I have made clear to all parties involved in this matter that further insertion of material that violates WP:BLP, that is, volatile data that is not referenced to reliable sources, could result in blocks, as will further edit warring and/or violations of WP:3RR. The main issue seems to regard the inclusion of information relating to Ayers; this material is of a controversial nature, and regards a living person. Unless reliable sources can compliment the material and the material can be written in a neutral and non-opinionated tone, this material should be omitted in following with policy. I have now made this clear, and have made clear the way things are going to be handled, per relevant policy and practice. Please cease the edit warring, and discuss future changes and alterations to this article instead of fighting over them. Thank you. -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 08:55, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

As a further note: I am going to allow this notice to stay on here for two days before I reduce the protection, to ensure that all parties are aware of this notice. -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 09:36, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not going to unprotect this article for now. It has become obvious that this dispute is much larger than I had feared, and the problem appears to transcend the BLP issues, from what I can see; the matter of whether this content should be included has also become a problem. This is something that only discussion can work out, and this is what needs to be encouraged: cordial, productive conversation. So, please, everyone, cool down and approach these issues rationally. Warring will not be to the gain of everyone. If problems still persist, the steps documented here may help in the solving of the problem. So, for now, I will not allow further edits to this page, until it is clear that productive discussion has proven fruitful and these problems have been solved. -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 16:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Clear as mud, since it's impossible to tell what you view as violating BLP when there is so little agreement on that subject. But you can help us out, here, by being concrete. Does this edit violate BLP by (a) being written in a non-neutral or opinionated tone or (b) by not being referenced to reliable sources? I'm not asking you now to opine on any other way in which it may or may not have been acceptable. Just clarify your meaning on those two points, please. Andyvphil (talk) 13:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe we have reached a consensus that Option No. 3 above, or something more inclusive, should be added to this article. I suggest that we start by adding No. 3 since it is impeccably sourced, and 11 out of 18 editors who expressed an opinion support No. 3 or something more inclusive. Kossack4Truth (talk) 12:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I have generally avoided having anything to do with this article due to the extensive edit warring that has been going on (I didn't want to contribute to that). That being said, the statement I believe we have reached a consensus is incorrect. I believe there are many more like me who have lurked waiting for the dust to settle, and would now like to weigh in on such a discussion in what is hopefully a post edit war universe. Also, discussion of Option No. 3 above, (heck, I'm not sure WHAT that option is since it is so far up-thread) would have been nice to restate in your message including the text of the option supposedly supported by consensus. Clarity of discussion and re-stating of positions (redundancy) would make decision making a tad more transparent. -- Quartermaster (talk) 12:44, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

There is no consensus for "option 3". It has been determined that any mention of Ayers would constitute a WP:BLP violation on the basis that such an inclusion serves only as a form of guilt-by-association. The relationship between Obama and Ayers is not at all notable, except for the fact that Republicans (and Clinton supporters) attempted to use Ayers' dubious past to tarnish Obama's image during the Democratic nomination campaign. It resulted in a brief flurry of interest that barely registered on the mainstream media radar. Since it is a campaign-only issue, it has received coverage in the campaign article. The incident does not warrant a mention in this BLP because it is inconsequential, and would violate WP:WEIGHT. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The discussion of "options" is pointless. The issue is whether or not any mention of Ayers is appropriate. Since the only reason to mention Ayers would be to link Obama to Ayers' past misdeeds, the answer is emphatically in the negative. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Scjessey, an admin named Anonymous Dissident has just stated quite explicitly that the material can be included if written in a neutral tone and supported by reliable sources. Since you wrote No. 3, I am confident that you agree it was written in a neutral tone; and there are abundant reliable sources. Your arguments here are as hollow as they ever were.

I stand corrected. It is now 12 out of 19 supporting No. 3 or something more inclusive. Earlier in the discussion, several more editors who chose No. 1 indicated that No. 3 would be an acceptable compromise. Here is the full text of No. 3: Between 1993 and 2002, Obama served on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, a philanthropic organization providing grants to Chicago's disadvantaged people and communities. In 1999 he was joined on the board by Bill Ayers, who had previously hosted a fundraiser for Obama in 1996. His association with the former radical activist would later draw media scrutiny during Obama's 2008 presidential campaign. Quartermaster, how do you feel about it?

I would also suggest that consensus has been reached on how to address Rezko. Nine out of 13 editors who expressed a preference support Option No. 4. Here is the full text of No. 4: Early life section: The firm represented, and senior partner Allison S. Davis became a business partner with, Tony Rezko's Rezmar Corporation. Obama did some work representing Davis in his negotiations with Rezmar and also a small amount of work directly for Rezmar. Presidential campaign section: Obama also faced scrutiny for his relationship with political fundraiser Tony Rezko. Rezko, who was convicted in June 2008 for fraud and money laundering charges related to political fundraising, had raised over $250,000 for Obama's political campaigns through the years, starting with the first day of fundraising for Obama's first campaign. Obama has not been implicated in any wrongdoing. Personal life section: The Obamas received a $300,000 discount and paid only $1.6 million for the house. The land adjacent to their house was simultaneously sold to the wife of developer and Obama supporter, Tony Rezko, for full price. This deal provoked the earliest media scrutiny of Obama's relationship with Rezko.

Since consensus has been reached and the article is protected, I am asking an admin to make those edits. Kossack4Truth (talk) 12:57, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Consensus was reached in the middle of an edit war which many of us sat out. Time to readdress the question with a clean slate. This is editing by obfuscation - the lengthy discussion by obviously interested parties on both sides prohibited many of us from expressing any opinion at the time. Simply declaring victory doesn't mean victory (consensus) was actually accomplished. -- Quartermaster (talk) 13:06, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}  Not done Quite clearly there is no consensus yet. PeterSymonds (talk) 13:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Consensus does not require unanimity. A strong majority (roughly two-thirds) of editors who expressed a preference support inclusion of the Ayers and Rezko related material italicized above. Kossack4Truth (talk) 13:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

That's just plain nonsense again. You have twisted Anonymous Dissident's words to suit your agenda. The administrator said:

Unless reliable sources can compliment the material and the material can be written in a neutral and non-opinionated tone, this material should be omitted in following with policy.

It is impossible to write a sentence that mentions Ayers in a neutral tone without falsely associating Obama with Ayer's radical past (violating the WP:BLP rule concerning guilt-by-association). Excluding a mention of the radical past leaves us with a non-notable paragraph that gives undue weight to Obama's association with Ayers, ergo, WP:BLP decrees that Ayers shouldn't be mentioned at all. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

In response, I direct your attention to an excellent point that Noroton makes above: "There is also no dispute that there is a controversy about this and it's notable enough for a Wikipedia article of its own. Anything that notable, and there aren't a whole lot of them associated with the Obama campaign, should be linked in the article. The Obama campaign and its supporters are putting a special meaning on the phrase guilt by association to give it the meaning 'you cannot criticize Obama for doing that.' Well, sorry, people can and people will. And lots and lots of people, including reliable sources, have reported on it. Obama's campaign has already criticized McCain for associating with lobbyists, so even the Obama campaign sees associations as potentially a problem." Kossack4Truth (talk) 13:16, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

You are making things up. Consensus requires unanimity among the reasonable, non-disruptive editors, which we don't have. Consensus is not majority, or 2/3 majority. Any voting on any topic here is suspect due to the large political stakes, and high probability of sock-puppets. Kossack4Truth, for example, has been registered for 3 months and made 90% of his edits to this article, with another 5% to other campaign-related articles. It's a single-purpose account which has done nothing but push for the inclusion of negative material in this article. The only admin request here should be for a block of Kossack4Truth. Life.temp (talk) 13:11, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

On Wikipedia "consensus" is a term of art similar to "notability" in that it doesn't mean quite the same thing as in English. When volunteering to determine whether there is "consensus" admins are supposed to carefully weigh the strength of arguments, etc., not merely count heads, and the goal is "rough consensus" not unanimity. Now, when the Woods board, operating by consensus, decided to bring Ayers aboard and later name him chairman that presumably did require unanimity (and therefor Obama's vote)... Andyvphil (talk) 13:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think it is notable enough for its own article either. There is nothing notable about any of this, in fact. Can you produce a single source that says Obama is a 60s radical, or that he is a terrorist bomber, or that he thinks that Ayers was right to do what he (allegedly) did? No. That means you cannot talk about those thing in this biography. The other details (the "meeting" and the Woods Fund connection) aren't notable enough either, which is why mentioning Ayers would violate WP:WEIGHT. Just to be clear, there is no controversy here. It is a manufactured construct designed to give Obama election difficulties (campaign article!). But that's all it is. Shame on you for buying into this crap. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:30, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Anonymous Dissident and PeterSymond's assessments. The edit war has not subsided. · AndonicO ^Engage. 13:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Later remark by Anonymous Dissident regarding the clarification of what material will and will not be accepted in this article

Enough. This level of heated discussion is ridiculous. I am going to clarify what I have said, and I would like everyone to make sure they understand that this is policy's point of view, specifically not mine: any material concerning a living person may not be included in the article unless adequate sourcing can be provided, and the said material can be written in a neutral way. Therefore, if the material concerning Ayers and whathaveyou can be adequately sourced and neutrally phrased, it may be included. If not, it should and will be omitted. I believe that this is now perfectly clear. -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 13:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

That's all well and good, but your clarification lacks the necessary specificity. There are plenty of reliable sources that describe the misdeeds in Bill Ayers' past; however, this is not the Bill Ayers biography. WP:BLP explicitly states that "[content] should be about the subject of the article specifically." -- Scjessey (talk) 14:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

If I understand the situation correctly, several others disagree with you. I believe Anonymous Dissident meant that for the addition of the paragraph mentioning Ayers to even be considered, it must first be neutrally phrased and properly sourced. · AndonicO ^Engage. 14:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

AD, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, of course. · AndonicO ^Engage. 14:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you've missed my point. There is no doubt that the paragraph in question can be neutrally-phrased and adequately-sourced. The problem is that this is the wrong article to put that paragraph in, because it introduces controversial details (60's radical, etc.) about a person who is not the subject of the article, violating WP:BLP. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

No, I didn't miss your point (in fact, I think you're right that it doesn't belong here); I'm merely saying that for the paragraph to even be considered, it must first conform to the BLP policy (in general, not if it belongs here or there). · AndonicO ^Engage. 14:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Let me try to bolster your argument. It would make as much sense to include similar language about Obama's long time association with potential gay Senator Larry Craig. Why would we put mention of Craig, and mention of his problems in this article? I bet we could even find that Obama probably voted FOR legislation proposed by Craig, or Craig voted for Obama sponsored legislation. The point underscored is that including such associations in a biography ABOUT OBAMA (which could easily be sourced) would be absurd. Just as absurd as putting in Ayers. -- Quartermaster (talk) 14:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

My crap, pardon me, my opinion: Include and describe the connection/controversy (w/o a new section) with Ayers very briefly, with Tony Rezko briefly and with Wright not so briefly but still briefly and link them all to their own main WP where the controversy (or a lead to it) is allready included. --Floridianed (talk) 15:08, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Both Rezko and Wright have been significant, influential figures in Obama's life. As long as the article doesn't go into tangential details about Rezko's criminal activities (Obama not involved) or Wright's wild delusions (Obama not associated), their relationships with Obama deserve coverage. Ayers, on the other hand, has had no significant impact on Obama's life - certainly nothing even remotely notable. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It is these facts you dismiss as "tangential details" that make it clear to the reader why the entire American news media establishment find these alliances of Obama's to be controversial. Kossack makes a very good point. If we have the space to say that Obama thinks he's a good chili chef, then we have the space to explain to the readers why these alliances are so controversial. 70.9.18.59 (talk) 18:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC) In response to Quartermaster's comment above, I'd like to add this if I may. What is it about Obama's association with Larry Craig that is controversial? How many reporters have questioned Obama about his relationship with Craig? This is the yardstick we should be using to determine whether a particular friendship or association should be mentioned in Obama's biography. Thanks for your civility, you seem to be the most reasonable of the "exclusionists" here. 70.9.18.59 (talk) 19:06, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

languages

please go to languages and add sq:Barack Obama for the albanian site. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.72.250.72 (talk) 13:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

 Done Thanks, PeterSymonds (talk) 14:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Is Obama really black?

The news media keeps reporting that Obama could be the first black president, but is he really black? I tried to look up some information about his race, it seems he is only 1/4 black, hardly qualified to be a blackman. Correct me if I am wrong, I didn't see any information regarding this in the article, I could have just missed it. Speaker1978 (talk) 15:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

He is biracal. His father was from Africa and his mother was Caucasian who lived in Hawaii. He also self-identifies as African-American according to his auto-biography --8bitJake (talk) 20:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

However, this calls into the question of what one would consider African-American. There is a segment of that population who believe that more recent immigrant groups from the continent of Africa should not be considered African-American, who trace their history to those who were forcibly brought to the United States through the slave trade. Rather they contend that they should be catagorized based on their nation of origin.--207.114.206.48 (talk) 08:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article African American spells this out quite adequately; we link to that article. As Jake said, he self-identifies as African American and black and the mainstream media do so as well. Tvoz/talk 19:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is, he is half-black and he was raised by the white side of his family. Fixedit1980 (talk) 06:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

There are very, very few "African-"Americans who are anything approaching purely negroid ancestry. Obama probably falls right around the median in that regard. The issue is that his father was a voluntary immigrant and not the descended of West African slaves, and therefore Barak is not heir to the legacy of American black slavery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wormwoodpoppies (talk • contribs) 06:37, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Calling him solely African-American perpetuates the one-drop-rule. Further, most African-Americans don't have a white mother; so, this argument isn't solely about his father's emigration. Stop perpetuating racism, because that makes you a racist. 71.195.153.149 (talk) 17:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The label isn't "Heir-to-Legacy-of-American-Black-Slavery." The label is "African-American," which means an American with African ancestry. Life.temp (talk) 12:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

One thing people forget, that is extremely important, is what he considers himself. If he considers himself an African American, then who are we to go in and tell him differently. For example: if a person is born by a Jewish mother and a Christian father, which are they? Christianity identifies through the father (I.E. what your father is, you are.), yet Judaism identifies through the mother (I.E. what your mother is, you are.) so which are they? It is up to that person, and only that person, to choose which religion/race to identity with. So if he considers himself an African American, then so be it. Brothejr (talk) 18:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Like I have stated elsewhere, if he called himself Asian, there would likely be some sort of asterisk explaining it away. 71.195.153.149 (talk) 18:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

In the African immigration to the United States page here on Wikipedia it clearly states that there has been a delination between the two groups, and that one group is may not be considered by the other group as part of the larger African-American groupage. Furthermore the page claims Senator Obama as representative of that group. This is not to say that some may consider this group as a sub-group of the larger African-American groupage . . . much as Loasians are considered a sub-group of the larger Asian-American groupage. --207.114.206.48 (talk) 02:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Establish consensus on racial designation

We should clarify here what Obama's racial designation is and stick with it - there is the beginnings of an edit war.

As far as I can tell the overwhelming majority of reliable sources say that Obama is "African-American", point out he is the first AA major presidential nominee, and explain in detail his parentage (Kenyan father, white mother). Unless we find a preponderance of sources to say otherwise that's how we should describe him. Let's establish the consensus here and point anyone who would edit otherwise to the consensus.

Race and racial terms are complex, fluid, and subject to some disagreement. That argument is for somewhere else, an article about the semantics of race, not the article about a particular person with a given racial background.

So that we can build a quick consensus and/or policy argument, please say what you think here, argue here, etc., but not by making controversial edits on the main page. Thx, Wikidemo (talk) 01:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Why can't we also add that he is also the first mulatto/biracial to the presumptive nominee of the Democratic party. I see that it's going to take a miracle to drive it into most of the people's head that he isn't African-American; however, that doesn't mean that we can't also add what I said in my first sentence. 71.195.153.149 (talk) 08:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we can and should, but down in the personal life section in the discussion about this family background and ancestry. The first sentence is only...one sentence long, so limited room there for a discussion of race. Rightly or wrongly, as of 2008 in America people of mixed white / African parentage are considered African-American even if that ignores the subtleties and differences. That's a matter of the terminology being askew (if you think that's bad, just think of all the imprecision around terms like Native American, Asian, or Latino when people are of mixed parentage). However, there must be articles out there that go into depth on Obama's mixed parentage and what that says on matters of culture and race. That could be worth a sentence or two farther down in the article, where we have room. Wikidemo (talk) 17:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

We're sitting here having a discussion about whether or not 25% Black is Black. Why? Obama is 50% White, 44% Arab, and 6% Black. We've had previous presidents who were higher percentage black; Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson (50%, older brother sold as a slave), Abraham Lincoln (50%), Warren Harding (more than 50%, attended an all-black college), and Calvin Coolidge all had a higher percentage of Black parentage; if we're going to talk about Barack's tiny 6% makeup as a distinguishing characteristic, we need to be accurate and complete. Either Barack Obama is the first Arab-American Presidential candidate, or he's just another rich white guy, or Thomas Jefferson was the first Black President and Obama is trying to become the 6th. http://www.geocities.com/cureworks1/5blkpres.htm -Syberghost (talk) 13:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)