Talk:Bad Newz Kennels

Note

The content of this article was moved from the Michael Vick article on July 10, 2007. All contributors are reminded that we are working hard to keep this subject within WP policies. Special attention to WP:NPOV and WP:CITE is requested. Vaoverland 09:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

intro?

the intro to this article is hopelessly anti dog-fighting. It reeks of bias, please fix it. Skerlnik 02:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Bias? Yep, of course, it is anti-dog fighting! The whole article is about a criminal investigation of violations of state and federal laws, and allegations of extreme brutality beyond that. There is no need to fix what ain't broken. I would suggest that if you want to advocate for dog fighting, do it in the dog fighting article. Vaoverland 02:24, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

"hopelessly anti dog-fighting". . .isn't that like saying "hopelessly anti rape or murder"? last time i checked, dog fighting was a crime. somehow i don't think wikipedia would suffer much if an article was against a crime.

NPOV is a hopelessly flawed concept, and these comments are proof of that concept. The matter is a current event that took place in the US and as such it is subject to US laws and values. The article needs to be respectful of the fact that no one has been convicted, and charges are alleged. It does not need to be respectful of other countries' laws and values, which are irrelevant to this topic. Sorry, but POV is unavoidable. Start your own topic on the wonderful "sport" of dog fighting in your country....and be sure to keep it neutral. <irony> 68.35.184.95 03:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

also, you might want to expand on the fact that Vick et al can also be charged at the state level, if Poindexter would get off his ass. It was just a few years ago that VA made animal cruelty a felony when it results in the death of an animal. So for each dog killed, Vick and friends can spend up to 12 months in jail.

Expand the article on this: Bad Newz wasn't just fighting among themselves; there were certainly other dog fighting teams involved. This article makes no mention of that whatsoever. You can't have a dogfight with just one team. --Mmathu 07:28, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Comments: I have been following all this closely. I live in another Virginia county which borders Surry, so I am getting the local perspective as well as the broader one in the media. Virginia law is tougher than you say; it provides 1 to 5 years in prison per violation, not just 12 months. The lowest term set forth for any felony in the Code of Virginia is 1 year. I also think that we need to remember that Surry (local) officials are up against what is, from all indications, a very well-funded criminal enterprise, and they lack the resources of the feds. For one example, the feds have at least one forensic vet working on evidence. The fruits of all that effort will fall into local hands for their use. In this situation, they are pretty much faced with having to build their local cases from what the feds give them access to, which will come slowly as the feds are not going to want to reveal too much of their own case at the early stages of their own prosecution. The physical evidence from the site alone isn't sufficient; they need the people and witnesses. If anyone thinks the delay at the county level means there will be no effort at prosecution, I believe that will be proved not correct. I think that Poindexter and Brown have a good awareness that their citizenry does not want the to look the other way, or fail to pursue the local charge angle; let us not forget that these guys have to face election campaigns. The whole affair has already done great damage to Surry's reputation, but a poorly handled prosecution would do even more. The reality is there is plenty of time to move under Virginia laws and doing it right seems more responsible than rushing right now. My gut is that the citizens of Surry and a local jury will see justice done under Virginia laws, but we may have to wait a spell. At least, no more harm is happening to more animals and all this big bucks gambling and related corruption seems to have been curtailed, at least by these guys at this location. Surry is a black-majority county, and no where else would these guys face greater efforts to make sure they are not treated unfairly because they are black. However, I think they would be sorely ill-advised to think that race will help them be not held accountable for their actions, if those are what they appear to have been. We shall see, and try to keep our WP article NPOV and factual as we do so. Vaoverland 04:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Tone

Is Wikipedia an America only reference ? Because in my country Dog Fighting is legal . The whole tone should have a NPOV regardless . Besides should this even be eligible for an article ?

The point still remains that dog fighting is illegal in the US--"Bad Newz Kennels" participated in a felonious act. I don't think having a negative tone with regard to crimes constitutes POV. Otherwise, you could probably better spend your time checking for POV on the dog fighting page, or possibly the stoning and honor killing pages.

Also, because this is a matter of high interest for US pop culture, I think that its important to be able to obtain information about it through Wikipedia.

Otherwise, you could probably better spend your time checking for POV on the dog fighting page, or possibly the stoning and honor killing pages.

Killing people isn't the same as animals.

I'm not saying that they are the same thing. What I'm saying is that just because something is legal or ignored in one country doesn't make it ethically right. There's nothing wrong with having a negative tone toward something that is widely considered to be wrong.

I want to chime in here; those of us contributing to this article have worked diligently to be NPOV within the topic of an investigation of illegal activities in the U.S. The laws etc. are facts, not any editor's opinions. In a democracy, we have laws by the people and for the people. So, since you are in another country with different laws, and this article makes it very clear that it is a U.S. situation, it is no more right for you to try to interject a position from your country into how we report this sad story here than it would be for us to go into a report of your dog fighting industry and try to interject our opinions or laws which are different.

We took the U.S. content almost entirely out of the dog fighting article and put it in it's own article: Dog fighting in the United States. Beyond that, this article is about a specific criminal investigation in the United States, so what do the laws (or customs) in some other county have to do with it anyway? There are ample facts that in the U.S., the practice of dog fighting is outlawed everywhere, and has been proved in the U.S. to be frequently tied to other crimes as it apparently was in this case. It is an increasingly unacceptable activity here, as evidenced by new and harsher laws, increased penalties, and calls for more. There are protests against it by members of the public. Meanwhile, it would seem that no one in the U.S. is advocating for it, anyway. If they were, WP could and should present that in the DF in US article. However, there seems no controversy here in the U.S. about the laws, except that more enforcement is needed and desired by the public, and is in fact, underway.

Regarding differing customs and practices around the world, the DF article would seem to be the place for you to be sure an article is NPOV from an international perspective. The existing article would benefit from some explanation and rational about why it is lawful or a good thing in a place like your country, since it is the opposite in many places around the world, with those explanations fairly well articulated. I, for one, would be interested in reading and trying to understand that better. Our cultures must be very different Vaoverland 04:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Michael Vick article content

I am starting a cleanup of the Michael Vick article. I will be providing a two paragraph summary of the situation with a {{main}} link to this article. In the meantime, I have stored an exact copy of the section from the Michael Vick article on my user subpage at User:Jmfangio/bad newz. If you are going to include any of that information here, please remove it from that subpage for me. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  11:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

This article contains references to media accounts of court documents instead of the court documents. for example. " WAVY-TV reported that detectives also seized guns, illegal ammunition magazines, suspected marijuana and paperwork on dog fighting.[17]"

I don't know of a single Federal or Virgina law that would limit ammunition magazines. What do the documents really say? We know how often the news media is wrong.

Well at least we have attributed the statement to "TV reported" rather than simply stating "illegal ammunition magazines". Could any illegality be due to felon status of some the men apparently involved? How do we address this? let us be mindful that this was the state/local guys search (Aptril 25), not the feds (June 7 and July 6), so there are no documents public yet as best I can determine. Vaoverland 03:31, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Reorg overhaul suggestions

I think the article needs a thorough review as it has been growing with events and in the light of retrospect, could be presented better and more logically. I am thinking that a section to provide information on the individuals would be sensible. Comments or suggestions on that concept and any other aspect? Vaoverland 22:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Lead

The lead section has gradually grown bigger and bigger. It is accurate, but has become way too big. Some of the earlier details are just not major anymore. It needs to be condensed. Mark in Historic Triangle 18:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but perhaps maybe get rid of the any information that is obsolete or irrelevant and prune it down a bit. --Hourick 20:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I hacked it down and made most of it an "Overview" section. It still needs cleanup, but at least you can see the TOC again. Sidatio 21:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Coordinates?

Not really sure why coordinates are given for this article, since it is about an investigation, which naturally has no fixed location. I suppose it's for the location of the kennel itself, but still. hateless 22:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Refractored text from Vick article

What follows is an exact replica of text i recently refractored from the main article. It needs to be incorporated here, but seeing as I'm more focused on cleaning up the main article - i thought housing it here would be the first step Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  05:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Moved content

Federal laws On July 17, 2007, Vick and three other men were indicted by a federal grand jury for felony and misdemeanor charges involving a 6-year long interstate dog fighting venture called "Bad Newz Kennels" and tens of thousands of dollars in gambling activities. Authorities contend that Vick's 15-acre estate in Surry County near Smithfield, Virginia was purchased and developed specifically for the "continuing criminal enterprise." Even within a controversial and brutal blood sport, the federal allegations detailed exceptionally extreme violence involving execution of losing and under-performing dogs, including Vick's direct involvement, drawing widespread protests and expressions of public outrage regarding dog fighting and animal cruelty. Vick supporters and animal rights groups each waged public campaigns. Following a detention hearing and arraignment on federal counts on July 26 in U.S. District Court in Richmond, Vick was released to bail under direct supervision of the U.S. District Court in Richmond pending a trial on November 26, 2007. The charges carried a maximum penalty of six years in prison. After his arraignment, corporate sponsors including Nike, Reebok, NFL Shops and trading card companies withdrew Vick-related products from retail sale. In early August, co-defendant Tony Taylor submitted a guilty plea. The related plea agreement confirmed many details of the federal indictment, notably Vick's participation in the "continuing criminal enterprise." More seriously, Taylor named Vick as the primary financial source for the dogfighting operation. By August 13, Vick's other two co-defendants, Purnell Peace, 35, and Quanis Phillips, 28, had also agreed to also plead guilty under their own plea agreements. The Richmond Times-Dispatch reported on August 15 that a federal grand jury in Richmond was due to begin hearing new allegations against Vick stemming from the dogfighting case beginning the week of August 20. At Vick's arraignment, they had announced their intention to file a superseding indictment against him. Despite reports that Vick had until the morning of August 17 to accept a deal, Vick's lawyers denied that there ever was a deadline. ESPN legal analyst Lester Munson suggested that Peace and Phillips' guilty pleas put Vick in a "legal checkmate," as their testimony, added to the other five potential witnesses the prosecutors already had, would make it very difficult (if not impossible) for Vick's legal team to mount an effective defense. He also suggested that the superseding indictment would include charges under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO). This law carries much more severe penalties than those under the current indictment (20 years in prison per racketeering count, plus treble damages), and is also relatively easy to prove in court as it focuses on patterns of criminal behavior rather than specific criminal acts. A source close to the investigation told the (Norfolk) Virginian-Pilot that federal prosecutors were seriously considering RICO charges in any superseding indictment. A RICO indictment would have also made it very difficult for Vick to pay his attorneys, as the prosecutors would have almost certainly asked Hudson to freeze Vick's assets; this provision was put in place to ensure there is something to seize in the event of a guilty verdict. Speculation surrounding RICO charges may have come from the specific "continuing criminal enterprise" language in the original indictment and in Taylor's plea agreement. A key element of proving racketeering is the existence of a "criminal enterprise," and the gambling alleged in the case would have qualified as an indictable offense under RICO since it took place on several occasions within the 10-year window required by the law. According to the Journal-Constitution, Vick's legal team began talks with federal prosecutors regarding a possible plea agreement. Initially, they sought a deal that would have dropped the conspiracy charge (a felony) and allow Vick to plead guilty to one or both counts related to the dogfighting operation itself (both misdemeanors). However, the Times-Dispatch reported that prosecutors offered a deal in which Vick would plead guilty to the conspiracy charge. The negotiations were prompted by the co-defendants' guilty pleas, which a spokesman for Vick's legal team said that they "didn't see ... coming." As the weekend progressed, sources familiar with the negotiations told ESPN that Vick was still considering all of his options and wanted as much information as possible before deciding to accept a plea deal. One sticking point, according to one source, was avoiding state charges (see below). On August 17, Peace and Phillips appeared before Judge Hudson at the U.S. District Court in Richmond. They entered their guilty pleas, plea agreements, and related allocutions. They also agreed to testify if the government requests it from them. Phillips' bail was revoked due to failing a drug test. Hudson told Peace and Phillips that because of the "victimization and execution of pit bull dogs" described in court filings, they would face an "upward departure" from sentencing guidelines. The aggravating factors will be taken into consideration at sentencing, which means they could face harsher punishments at their sentencing on November 30. The documents filed with the court and obtained by the news media under the provisions of the U.S. Freedom of Information Act provided confirmation of portions of that contained in Taylor's earlier plea agreement and also gave more detail of co-defendant Vick's roles. Notable points reported by the news media include: Vick "almost exclusively" funded the dogfighting operation known as Bad Newz Kennels, but he did not share in the proceeds. Vick, Taylor, Peace and Phillips posed for a photo with Jane, a pit bull dog, before a fight against a female pit bull dog owned by Lockjaw Kennels from North Carolina. The fight happened in North Carolina in the spring of 2003. Peace, Phillips and Vick killed about eight dogs that failed to fight well after testing sessions in April 2007. Peace's summary of facts reads in part: "All three participated in executing the dogs. Peace agrees and stipulates that these dogs all died as a result of the collective efforts of Peace, Phillips and Vick." Copies of some of the documents were made available by the Newport News Daily Press at: Summary of Facts from Quanis Phillips' plea agreement (PDF, 12 pages) Summary of Facts from Purnell Peace's plea agreement (PDF, 12 pages) Purnell Peace's plea agreement (PDF, 12 pages) On August 20, Vick's lead attorney, Billy Martin, announced that over the weekend, Vick reached an agreement with federal prosecutors to plead guilty. Terms were not disclosed, but it has been assumed that he has agreed to plead guilty to the conspiracy charge. In return, Vick would have to cooperate with the government, and submit a detailed allocution regarding his role in the operation--including the specific methods used to kill the dogs and any role in the high-stakes gambling. The conspiracy charge carries a maximum sentence of five years in prison, but based upon sentencing guidelines, he would be likely to be sentenced to only 12 to 18 months in federal prison. Vick is expected to appear in court on August 27th. However, Judge Hudson would not be bound by any sentencing agreement; he has a reputation for handing down long jail terms. He would also consider the results of an investigation by federal probation officials, who would submit a pre-sentencing report that only Hudson would view. As mentioned above, Hudson indicated in his statement to Peace and Phillips that he found the facts of the case particularly aggravating. Munson said that Vick's plea was in essence, a "surrender" because they kept getting bad news from the prosecutors, and the NFL refused to entertain offers to negotiate a deal that would ensure he could return to the league (see below). He also said that Vick could be looking at a sentence of 24 months or more if he can't convince Hudson that he will be a good citizen once he gets out of prison. Another ESPN legal analyst, Roger Cossack, speculated on an August 20 edition of SportsCenter that Vick could face a sentence closer to the maximum, given Hudson's reputation. On August 24, Vick filed his guilty plea and allocution with the federal court in Richmond. As expected, he pleaded guilty to felony conspiracy to operate an interstate dogfighting ring. He admitted to providing most of the financing for the operation itself, as well as participating directly in several dogfights in Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Maryland. He also admitted to sharing in the proceeds from these dog fights. He also admitted that he knew his colleagues killed several dogs who didn't perform well enough. However, while he admitted to providing some of the money for gambling on the fights, he denied placing any side bets on the dogfights. He also denied actually killing any dogs himself. As part of his plea deal, Vick will have to cooperate with the prosecution, as well as forfeit the Surry County property to the government. Unless he is pardoned by the President, Vick will be considered a convicted felon for the rest of his life. Local (state) laws Although the federal investigation and charges placed drew most publicity in July and August, 2007, the local investigation and consideration of charges under violations of state laws were also continuing. Because Virginia is organized as a Commonwealth state, local jurisdictions are legally part of the state government. In this context, local and state have the same meaning, but are very separate legally from federal authorities and courts. The federal charges outcome and any plea bargain Vick might reach with federal prosecutors would have no official standing in the local case. Double jeopardy concepts would not apply to state and federal overlapping cases. On July 24, Surry County Sheriff Harold D. Brown stated that he felt certain state indictments for additional charges in Virginia would be returned by a local grand jury during its September session. However, no individuals have been named as target(s) to date. Until August 17, there had also been no indication of how many charges might be presented to the grand jury in Surry County. Over fifty dogs were seized, in addition to carcasses recovered, and a number of the interstate fight events, all with attendant gambling activities, were allegedly hosted at Vick's Surry County estate. On August 17, Surry County Commonwealth's Attorney Gerald Poindexter told WVEC-TV, the ABC affiliate in Hampton, that the admissions contained in the federal plea agreements filed by Purnell Peace and Quanis Phillips "a road map to indictments in Surry County." The plea agreements implicate all four men, Peace, Phillips, Taylor and Vick in both dog fighting and the killing of dogs. It had been noted in earlier media reports that one of the agreements states that eight dogs were killed jointly by Peace, Phillips and Vick in April 2007 (prior to the April 25 search). Poindexter told WVEC that he's looking at two felony counts: dogfighting and killing of a companion animal. The maximum sentence in Virginia for each charge is five years. "We believed we had evidence and this is the first time someone's admitted to it. It's sad and outrageous. It's gruesome," he added. Later in the day, Poindexter told the Journal-Constitution that "yes, indeed, we will prosecute" Vick and others involved for animal cruelty, dogfighting and other offenses. Poindexter called the methods detailed in Peace and Phillips' statements "startlingly offensive and demanding of prosecution." He intends to present evidence to a Surry County grand jury on September 25. ESPN reported that Vick could face up to 40 years in prison under state law. His legal team was reportedly trying to get any state charges dropped if he accepted the plea deal offered by federal prosecutors, even though they have no official standing in the local case. While it isn't clear whether Vick will serve any resulting prison term concurrently or consecutively with his federal sentence, Munson believes that Vick will serve any sentence concurrently. League and Falcons reaction The NFL initially announced that it would not take action against Vick unless he was found guilty. Commissioner Roger Goodell, however, said through his personal assistant that Vick would face "significant discipline" if found guilty. Vick himself personally apologized to Falcons owner Arthur Blank on July 19, 2007. In subsequent meetings with Goodell, Vick adamantly denied any role in the dog fighting operation. However, on that same day, according to reports from ESPN's Chris Mortensen and Len Pasquarelli, as well as the Atlanta Journal-Constitution; the NFL, NFL Players Association and Falcons officials began what was described as an "urgent" collaborative effort to persuade Vick to miss the 2007 season. Mortensen said on several ESPN programs on July 20 sources familiar with the talks told him that no one was comfortable with Vick playing for the Falcons until the case was resolved. Among other things, Mortensen said that there was a possibility that if Vick played in 2007, it could make potential jurors think he wasn't taking the case seriously and that he needed to "lose this season in order to play 10 more." Finally, on July 23, after days of public statements, protests, and demands for Vick's suspension, Goodell ordered Vick not to report to Falcons training camp while the league investigated the matter. That night, Mortensen said on ESPNEWS that Goodell acted because Blank was ready to suspend Vick for the first four games of the 2007 season--the maximum permitted under the collective bargaining agreement for conduct detrimental to the team. This was confirmed by the Falcons the next day. In a press conference, Blank said that he and general manager Rich McKay had already drafted a letter to Vick regarding the four-game suspension. He also said that Vick should give up any thoughts of playing while the case is pending, even if it meant missing the entire season. Blank and McKay both said they were shocked at the allegations. Blank said that the Vick portrayed in the indictment "is certainly not the player or the person that I knew the last six years," while McKay said that "there was no indication, no signs, no whispers" that Vick could have been involved in this type of activity. However, even without the Falcons' opposition to Vick's return pending the resolution of the case, the terms of his bail do not allow him to leave the commonwealth of Virginia until the trial. Although it was initially thought that Vick's legal team would have to negotiate a deal with the NFL that would allow his return at some point,Goodell rejected any offers to meet with Vick's representatives. He also refused to say what the league would do if Vick admitted to certain facts under a plea agreement. On August 17, it was reported that Goodell stated he wants the legal process to run its course before he rules on Vick's future in the league. After Vick's co-defendants pleaded guilty, Blank said that their statements of fact "don't match up with what the league was told (by Vick), even our organization and certainly not what was said to the commissioner." He told ESPN's Sal Paolantonio that he expected Vick to plead guilty. He also said that once all the facts were in, the Falcons intended to "move very decisively." After Vick's plea agreement was announced, the NFL issued its own statement in which it "totally condemn(ed)" the conduct detailed in the charges and said that Vick was admitting to behavior that was "inconsistent with what (he) told our office and the Falcons." Mortensen said on SportsCenter that Vick's initial denial of any involvement was by itself a violation of the Personal Conduct Policy. On August 24, only hours after Vick filed his guilty plea with the court, Goodell suspended Vick indefinitely without pay. In a letter to Vick, Goodell said that Vick had admitted to conduct that was "not only illegal, but also cruel and reprehensible." He also said that merely providing money for gambling purposes "violate(d) the terms of your NFL Player Contract," even if he didn't place any bets himself. He also informed the Falcons that they were now free to recover part of Vick's signing bonus. Technically, Vick is a first-time offender under the league's Personal Conduct Policy. First-time offenders usually have to undergo an evaluation and, if required, counseling. They would also be subject to a fine and/or a suspension without pay. However, Goodell had been expected to hand down a stiffer punishment because of Vick's involvement in gambling across state lines. The NFL, like most professional sports leagues, does not allow its players to be involved in any form of gambling activity, even if it is legal. Under NFL policy, a player can be banned from the league for life for gambling or associating with gamblers, even if he is a first-time offender. Blank issued a statement strongly supporting Goodell's decision, calling Vick's admitted behavior "incomprehensible and unacceptable for a member of the National Football League and the Atlanta Falcons." He also said that he hoped Vick would "use this time, not only to further address his legal matters, but to take positive steps to improve his personal life." In a press conference on August 27, Blank said that the Falcons have no immediate plans to cut Vick (though they theoretically could have done so immediately, as Goodell ruled that Vick had breached his contract), but they do intend to recover $22 million of his signing bonus. McKay sent a demand letter to Vick's representatives earlier in the day. Vick must remain on the roster while the Falcons pursue his bonus money. Blank did not rule out the possibility of Vick returning, nearly all media reports suggest that Vick will never play another down for the Falcons again. ESPN's John Clayton speculated in an August 17 column that if the Falcons do sever ties with Vick, it would be difficult, if not impossible, for Vick to catch on with another NFL team. The Canadian Football League is not a realistic option for Vick should he be unable to get reinstated to the NFL; it recently instituted a policy barring suspended NFL players from playing in the CFL, and it is nearly impossible for a convicted felon to get a Canadian visa. Vick statement Following his court appearance on August 27, Vick made a statement at a press conference at the Omni Richmond Hotel in Richmond, Virginia, in which he apologized to many of the people he was "not honest and forthright" with, as well as to children who looked up to him, as well as denounced dog fighting. I want to personally apologize to Commissioner Goodell, Arthur Blank, coach Bobby Petrino, my Atlanta Falcons teammates, you know, for our -- for our previous discussions that we had. And I was not honest and forthright in our discussions, and, you know, I was ashamed and totally disappointed in myself to say the least. I want to apologize to all the young kids out there for my immature acts and, you know, what I did was, what I did was very immature so that means I need to grow up. I totally ask for forgiveness and understanding as I move forward to bettering Michael Vick the person, not the football player. I take full responsibility for my actions. Dogfighting is a terrible thing, and I did reject it. I offer my deepest apologies to everybody out in there in the world who was affected by this whole situation. And if I'm more disappointed with myself than anything it's because of all the young people, young kids that I've let down, who look at Michael Vick as a role model. And to have to go through this and put myself in this situation, you know, I hope that every young kid out there in the world watching this interview right now who's been following the case will use me as an example to using better judgment and making better decisions. Once again, I offer my deepest apologies to everyone. And I will redeem myself. I have to. So I got a lot of down time, a lot of time to think about my actions and what I've done and how to make Michael Vick a better person.

Begin in 1981? You mean Vick owned a dogfighting kennel when he was 1 year old! No wonder he's going to jail. I think that's supposed to be 2001. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.25.101.110 (talk) 00:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

References

Infobox Criminal

I am adding this to the federal section of this article, for all four defendants in one box. --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 23:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Rename article?

I assume the word "investigation" was included very early on in the article creation, when it was a current news event and the charges were unproven. Now that most of the participants have been found guilty or accepted plea bargains, I think we can and should call it an "incident" or "case" or the like. Calling it an "investigation" gives the false impression that this article is about the investigation of the incident, when it is in fact about the incident itself.

Some clean-up is required. The "timeline" section probably should be written out in prose and/or integrated into the article structure.Wikidemo (talk) 21:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose at this time (February 2008). While it will be absolutely necessary, I suggest that you re-propose once all of the STATE trials are closed. This article concerns the federal case (which is closed), AND the related state case which has separate charges (still OPEN, with trials to start in spring 2008. At that time, renaming it to a case may be warranted.--AEMoreira042281 (talk) 21:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose at this time (February 2008). The Trials are still open, please to not rename —Preceding unsigned comment added by S kirkness (talk • contribs) 18:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

• Rename - Just call it Bad Newz Kennels. The article makes it clear that the investigation is the major event here, but it's inappropriate as a title since this wasn't spun off from a main article for Bad Newz Kennels. Torc2 (talk) 02:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• Rename I agree with a change to Bad Newz Kennels at this time. I am the user who created this article, which was a spin-off from Michael Vick. It was just an investigation at that time, and of course, it develope dinto a lot more than just that. The subject is more than one "case" with more than one "bad guy", and more than a single event, since the story really includes disposition of the dogs also at this point, as well as still-pending trials, and ongoing civil items. I think the simplified name really adequately identifies the content for this well-known subject by now and is less limiting. Mark in Historic Triangle of Virginia (talk) 09:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Then try something like Bad Newz Kennels case, which is shorter and describes the article more succinctly. --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 00:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Why would you insist on having 'case' in the title? It seems backwards to me not to make the kennel itself the center of the topic.Torc2 (talk) 06:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Timeline

This is the part of the article I feel most needs cleanup, being turned into easily followable prose to make the article look more presentable. --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 06:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "DP Interview" :
  • {{cite web |author=Veronica Gorley Chufo |title=Probe called 'a conspiracy' |publisher=''Daily Press'', Newport News, VA |date=[[2007-06-08]] |url=http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-55057sy0jun08,0,687089.story |accessdate = 2007-06-08 }}** {{cite web |author=Veronica Gorley Chufo |title=Probe called 'a conspiracy' |publisher=Daily Press, Newport News, VA |date=[[2007-06-08]] |url=http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-55057sy0jun08,0,687089.story |accessdate = 2007-06-08 }}

DumZiBoT (talk) 02:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Allen?

I can't find anywhere in here what Oscar Allen was accused and convicted of.

Relevance of race in support of Vick.

It is inappropriate to point out the race of people who supported Vick. Even if dog fighting is prevalent among African-American communities, this is a result of complex socio-economic, not racial, factors. Dog fighting persisted for centuries in Europe and the US among working-class white communities. That they were white was no more relevant. I am removing the reference to race.User:Johnpwm —Preceding undated comment added 02:15, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Not that I am drawing any conclusions on the motivation of the people who supported Vick in relation to the whole dog-fighting issue, but it does seem relevant that every person cited in the article as supporting Vick is black. Sennen Goroshi ! (talk) 15:24, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Although it is self-evident upon clicking the links for each person, it does seem worth pointing out. I'll run a search to see if anyone made a particular point of that. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:50, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

External links modified

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Requested move 2 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Bad Newz Kennels. Consensus on the shorter name. – robertsky (talk) 18:12, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

---

Bad Newz Kennels dog fighting investigation → Bad Newz Kennels dog fighting ring – This article is about a dog-fighting ring. While "investigation" seems appropriate for the Timeline of the Bad Newz Kennels dog fighting investigation article, the title of this article should reflect the unambiguous results of that investigation - a ring was uncovered. When an investigation yields an unambiguous result, I can't see why the title of the article would say "investigation" instead of what that result was. When George Floyd's death was investigated and rules to be a murder, the resultant article title was "Murder of George Floyd," not "George Floyd death investigation." (I also think dog-fighting should be hyphenated but that's a topic for another day). Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 20:01, 2 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 00:07, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

• Why stop there? How about Bad Newz Kennels? There's no reason to put the description in the title, WP:PRECISE and all. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 20:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support Bad Newz Kennels per TarkusAB. Dekimasuよ! 15:49, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.