Talk:Astral Weeks

Which Astral Weeks was first?

Beefart says: It seems to me that the assertion that Mingus' Astral Weeks was not released until 1990 cannot be right. Can anybody find a date for the release of the original vinyl disc? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Captainbeefart (talk • contribs) 20:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Lewiscode says: Original Vinyl was released Apr 14, 1964. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.188.199.79 (talk) 05:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Beefart says: No, I don't think so. It was recorded that day. Even the Danes, with their legendary efficiency, can't record a sextet in the morning and have the discs in the record shops before 5 pm... So the question remains unanswered.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Captainbeefart (talk • contribs) 14:16, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Split

Should the section of Mingus's album be split into another article?

• Yes

1. Of course! Camillus (talk) 03:00, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
2. Definitely - Lewiscode — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.188.199.79 (talk) 05:37, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
3. Immediately, no questions asked. Suppose there is a relationship between the two albums -- well, that's what wikilinks are for! :-) Mattbrundage 05:41, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
4. Agree with Mattbrundage. - Akamad 07:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
5. Obviously. If all other name clashes are split into other articles, why on Earth should this be an exception? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Batkins (talk • contribs) 22:24, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

• No

Beefart is opposed for the time being. There are a number of unanswered questions here. I suspect that there is an interesting untold tale buried in the relationship between the two albums. When these facts have been clarified by contributors, then it may be appropriate to separate the two articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Captainbeefart (talk • contribs) 16:30, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Beefart is retarded for the time being. If we split off a separate article on Morrison's Astral Weeks, we can include a link to Mingus's album at the top and you can have fun "clarifying the facts." - Batkins 02:12, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Beefart says: Your entry is under "No" when you voted "Yes". Meeennwhile, nobody has come up with and ANY "clarifying facts". Funny about that. Facts are hard to find, unlike snide remarks, which any fool can suck out of his orifice. Besides, the split was made weeks ago. How come you didn't notice that? Beefart is shitfaced whenever he writes for Wikipedia. What's your excuse?... Captainbeefart 12:39, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Cover

I think that Maria McKee has also covered "The Way Young Lovers Do," on her album, You Gotta Sin to Get Saved. Should this be added? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.60.212.249 (talk) 20:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Personnel

I think Van Dyke Parks added his idiosyncratic harpsichord on some of the tracks. Definitely on Cypress Avenue. Richard Davis may have played some pretty wild stuff, but listen closely to that harpsichord: typically Parks. Does anybody know if this is indeed the other 'Van'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.84.38.231 (talk) 00:07, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Larry Fallon plays harpsichord according to "Van Morrison No Surrender" by Johnny Rogan. Kitchen roll (talk) 15:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Awesome edit

On 05:49, 20 December 2005; by user: 68.77.140.193 - a huge chunk of material about the recording session. Wonderful stuff. The very heart of this article was created at that moment by that unknown user. All in one go. I sincerely hope that it's not a copyright theft. Well written information like that is what all articles in Wiki should be striving for. SilkTork 14:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• The material follows the text of Can You Feel the Silence? closely, but does not copy it, except in noted quotations. The unknown user was certainly industrious, and we all should be grateful to them.Agadant 22:02, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Wonderful edit, but still one big problem!

I am currently working on the French version of this entry. I own several books about Van Morrison, but the only thing I have ever read about the session that took place on October, the 1st is this sentence extracted from Celtic Crossroads, the Art of Van Morrison by Brian Hinton, Sanctuary Publishing: "After a morning booking, the very worst time of the day for improvising musicians, and at which the playing was so lacklustre that the session was abandoned, the reassembled cast caught fire again at dusk on 15 October." I can hardly imagine that someone who gave such an amount of (accurate) details could make up some of them. However, I am not converted yet, since these facts seem to appear somewhat magically. I mean, where do these details come from ? The influence of the English wikipedia is so strong that many other countries have already spread these pieces of information, which are possibly untrue. So I decided to hide a part of the text. I know I am not very good at English, I hope I have been able to make me understand, because this subject is a bit complicated. I am actually begging for international help! A quick answer would make me very happy.Noar 21:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The Oct. 1st session

Clinton Heylin's Van Morrison biography (Can You Feel The Silence?: A New Biography) also mentions the Oct. 1st session and dates "The Way Young Lovers Do" from this second session.

The biography may have been the source for much of this information, but the wording has been changed and the information has been condensed. The book has some more interesting details regarding Morrison's troubles, like one anecdote involving the mob. Juicy stuff, but could be hearsay.L1759 20:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Origin of title of Astral Weeks

I found two references in two different books that agree that Morrison got the title for Astral Weeks while visiting an artist friend, Cezil McCartney, (when back in Belfast after THEM folded) and before he went back to the United States and recorded the album. Therefore I removed the statement that Morrison has never said how the title originated. Agadant 20:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Beefart says: Excellent! One mystery remains: Why did Mingus use the same name and did he beat Morrison to the punch? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Captainbeefart (talk • contribs) 12:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Album and article rating

How is the category: Top importance Album articles-(which is probably U.S generated) and Top importance Ireland articles (which seems to be by U2 only) rating system from [Top to Low] determined? - Otherwise, it is hard to explain how this album is rated of low importance in the country of origin of it's composer?- Best of Lists-Acclaimed Music Note: It is also in the Grammy Hall of Fame. Agadant (talk) 17:00, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Critical acclaim and influence section

It would be great to add some quotes from the initial critical response to the album from the late 1960s/early 1970s. I will see if I can locate some of that material. But if others could find some, that would be most helpful.

Designquest10 (talk) 17:48, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

"Afterwards"

I don't see what this section has to do with the album, its recording, reception or significance. It's a random anecdote. I think it ought to be deleted. Cloonmore (talk) 00:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The section is about Van meeting Astral Weeks flautist John Payne five years later and about the performences of Astral Weeks songs Madame George and Cyprus Avenue. I put it on because I found it very interesting and thought other Van fans would as well. It also gives you an understanding of how Van communicated with the "Astral Weeks musicians". Kitchen roll (talk) 15:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

This section does seem out of place and context in the article. It is written from a one-sided point of view leaving the reader to intrepret Morrison's side. I interpret it that he was "into the moment" of preparing for his coming concert but someone else might have a different view. Therefore, I believe it disrupts the flow of a very well written and interesting article and accordingly removed it. Agadant (talk) 14:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Band members

If anyone has any information on who played in the horn or string section, or know who the other flautist is it would be much appreciated. Kitchen roll (talk) 14:28, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Reviews

The reviewers Adrian Denning and Scott Floman look suspiciously like personal blogs, which make them ineligible for citation per WP:ALBUM. Anyone have any info to support their citation? Cloonmore (talk) 02:55, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

• See: Adrian Denning at toptenreviews
• Scott Floman, former Popmatters rock critic: Scott Floman-Independent music reviews.

There were also numerous reviews in Wiki listing Adrain Denning also. I'm not taking anymore time with this. You can google them both if you want more examples. Thanks, please don't reply. I'm not interested in this kind of exchange between editor's when there is plenty else to do. Agadant (talk) 21:28, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

What a bad attitude! For Danning to be mentioned on this toptenreviews website is nothing substantial. Hekerui (talk) 21:38, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Don't assume. This editor had been harrassing me for months. Tagging my song articles with "Not Notable" and questioning everything he could think of on the talk pages of articles I had worked on. Kept it up all the way to Christmas Eve too. Think he actually had a grudge against Van Morrison, for whatever reason. I finally got impatient. Shouldn't have shown it here though, I did realize that myself. Agadant (talk) 21:57, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

If you have been insulted or stalked then consider reporting it/asking an admin for help, harrassment is certainly not cool. Hekerui (talk) 22:35, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Hekerui, and I'll take your advice next time anything like that happens again! Agadant (talk) 22:42, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Internal Links

I removed dozens of useless and redundant and unnecessary links from the article. Things as prosaic as "nonsense", "painting", "guitar", "contract", "New York" etc. etc. etc. I left in many proper names, companies, locations, etc. but really, many of these should be removed as well.

The article had every other word linked in some sections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.254.174.253 (talk) 18:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for you help. I restored the links for the first time mention of instruments on the musicians section. As you can see from this FA rated article this is the approved form. Lions (album) Agadant (talk) 23:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Astral Weeks/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jezhotwells (talk · contribs) 18:59, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I shall be reviewing this article against the Good Article criteria, following its nomination for Good Article status.

Disambiguations: none found.

Linkrot: none found. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:21, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Checking against GA criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   The lead is rather thin. It should contain a summary of the recording sessions, a little on the symbolism, and the legacy. See WP:LEAD  Done

   I added information to the lead about the recording sessions and symbolism. I wasn't sure what more to put about the legacy. Can you help with a suggestion? Agadant (talk) 04:18, 11 May 2012 (UTC) I added missing information to the lead and body about the live tour and releases 40 years later.Agadant (talk) 02:24, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   In the lead: " "neither instant nor evanescent: Astral Weeks will sell as many copies this year as it did in 1968 and has every year in between"." needs direct attribution, i.e. who said that. Done

   I added the link and ref to the author of this comment who is a noted music historian. Here is the diff. http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Astral_Weeks&diff=491276705&oldid=491272780 Whiteghost.ink (talk) 03:47, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

   Excellent! Jezhotwells (talk) 08:15, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

   What makes Acclaimed Music[1] a reliable source?  Done

   I think I added it in the lead as a convenience when someone questioned the album's acclaim. Have removed it as the individual rankings mentioned in the legacy section have sources. Agadant (talk) 22:45, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

   I don't think that "With varied rhythms and frenzied vocals, mixed with bizarre lyrics that evoke images instead of coherent ideas and narratives, Astral Weeks has been compared to the school of Impressionism in painting, which similarly seeks to evoke emotions associated with an image." is adequately supported by "Van Morrison's Astral Weeks has come to signify a soulful impressionism that wells up from sources Wordsworth deemed "too deep for tears." from ref #36[2]  Done

   I rewrote the paragraph and sourced it accordingly. Agadant (talk) 04:18, 11 May 2012 (UTC) Did a little more work on it and sorted the refs for easier checking. I've really had 'writer's block' on this one and then I found the misplaced ref for the earlier version but I think this gives more information to the reader. Agadant (talk) 20:00, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

   ref #19[3] "Lester Bangs:Astral Weeks". personal.cis.strath.ac.uk. Retrieved 29 September 2011. is not really a correct citation. It should say that it was an article in "Stranded" (is that a magazine) from 1979 hosted on a personal website of a computing lecturer.[4] As it stands the implication is that it is some sort of official document. Doesn't make it a reliable source.  Done

   Now sourced to applicable Google book listing. Agadant (talk) 22:45, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

   Otherwise sources OK.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Good coverage

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   NPOV

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   Stable

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Images licensed and tagged, correct fair use attributions for album covers and sound samples.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   Just a few points to be addressed. On hold for seven days. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:56, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

   OK, I think all is in order now. Good work, I am happy to list this. Congratulations! Jezhotwells (talk) 10:39, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

"Recording sessions" section & untrue stuff

From the "Recording sessions" section:

John Cale reported, "Morrison couldn't work with anybody, so finally they just shut him in the studio by himself. He did all the songs with just an acoustic guitar, and later they overdubbed the rest of it around his tapes."[16] This is, in fact, completely untrue – the live tracks for the sessions were performed by Morrison on vocals...

If John Cale's statement is indeed untrue, then why are we including it at all? Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 21:17, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Madam George

The following is most certainly incorrect: 'The original title of the song is "Madame Joy" and Morrison later changed the title although he actually sings the words "Madame Joy" in the song.[58]' In fact, Van Morrison clearly sings the words "Madam George" in the song - and also in the "Take 4" version now available on the remastered release. This is easily proven by simply putting on a pair of reasonable quality headphones and listening to the track. I recommend the remastered version, but it's easily identifiable as 'George' on my original 1968 vinyl version too. Van Morrison enunciates the word very clearly: /'jȯrj/, /'dʒɔ:dʒ/ etc.

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Astral Weeks/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Article requirements: Y All the start class criteria Y A completed infobox, including cover art and most technical details Y At least one section of prose (excluding the lead section) Y A track listing containing track lengths and authors for all songs Y A full list of personnel, including technical personnel and guest musicians Y Categorisation at least by artist and year Y A casual reader should learn something about the album. Andrzejbanas (talk) 07:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 07:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 08:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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