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Olive Oil and Butter

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This diff shows the removal, with the comment "absolutely not", of my addition of the alternative use of olive oil in the recipe. Now, bearing in mind that WP is not a cookbook I'm not about to get all reverty about it, nor go chasing references, the more so since I do not read gothic fonts and my cookbook is in German and gothic!.

All I wanted to do was to state clearly that olive oil, light flavoured olive oil, is valid in this recipe. I've been making apfelstrudel since 1960, taught by my father who hailed from Wien, and we have never once used butter within the pastry mix, always a tablespoon of light olive oil per strudel. It gives easy elasticity of the dough. We paint the rolled out dough with melted butter, not olive oil, and we paint the finished product with butter before baking. But oil could be used.

There are no absolutes in strudel making! Fiddle Faddle (talk) 13:43, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I should have noticed that the section says "References"not "notes", though. a ref need not always be to a source, it may also be a genuine footnote. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 13:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]



I understand that you and your father are baking your Apfelstrudel with olive oil, but the German and Austrian Apfelstrudel is not baked with olive oil. The dough should be very thin, and holes are not disregarded in real Austrian Apfelstrudel. The real Apfelstrudel is a culinary masterpiece and it is not made like the imitations around the world, with thick or broken dough layers or phyllo dough or olive oil.
It is not a difference of opinions, it is a culinary tradition we are talking about.


Warrington (talk) 14:00, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(after edit conflict)
Please tell me with some precision where Wien is located?
Why are you getting bent out of shape over this? We are talking of cookery, where things differ. The entire article is pretty poor, you know. It has a major need of citations.
Culinary tradition is not absolute, despite your confidence in it. I've never heard of strudel fascism befire.
Please do not insert headings and resign thinsg other editors have written. Leave othr people's comments as they stand. Anything else is bad form Fiddle Faddle (talk) 14:09, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


It is not fascism, and you are advised to chose your words very carefully. Remember to maintain Wikipedia policy:How to use article talk pages

I did not inserted any headings and modified what other editors have written. We were making the edit in the same time, that is why the two hedings.

Austrians were baking this dish since 1696, and my grandmothers mom was baking it since 1889. What you do with your own Apfelstrudel is not what the Austrian Apfelstrudel is. Austrian Apfelstrudel is an art and is an almost holy dish in Austria, and you can not just go on preparing it in any way like you want or do whatewer you wish. You may add a separate section In other countries and describe other countries picking up on this dish, their preparation picking up on the dish in US or Australia, but that is a copy of the dish and is not the original version. Please do that and you may write about olive oil and other blasfemous ingredients if you wish.

Please may I refer you to ownership of articles? I'm afraid your whole tone seems to be strident. I have no interest in any further attempts at dialogue with you. I perceive that you are threatening me. I am therefore going to walk away form you and not respond to you in any further manner. I will, as is my right as an editor here, edit this article further if I choose to. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 14:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I do not own articles, nobody does. This article is written by many people. I'm afraid that your tone started to be stridentand first, calling me a Strudelfascist and the entire article pretty poor. I was not threatening you in any way and you are welcome to edit it if you have the right kwnolege to do so. But you didn't even know where Wienna is on a map.

Vienna is the capital of Austria[1] and is also one of the nine states of Austria. Apfelstrudel is considered to be the national dish of Austria see http://www.holidaycityflash.com/austria/vienna_cuisine.htm http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080325023708AAbzSSY

Savoury Strudels are more often made with oil

Warrington (talk) 21:36, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that original strudel pastry is made with vegetable oil, not with butter (in contrast to puff pastry, which you also can use for kind of strudel and which contains loads of butter). Source: e.g. famous "Sacher Kochbuch" by Franz Maier-Bruck, 1975, p. 493. - But olive oil sounds unusual to me, as olive oil has only been popular and wide-spread in Austria for, let's say, the last twenty years. Library mistress (talk) 13:49, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good bless you. Remove that olive oil, please. Hafspajen (talk) 14:03, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of this article

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Why does this article not deal with encyclopaedic matters such as origin, history, etc? It seems to me that it is missing a great deal of information I would expect to find in an encyclopaedia Fiddle Faddle (talk) 14:17, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

History is in now. For Habsburg Empire see h ttp://ezinearticles.com/?Austrian-Dishes&id=1411498 called Austrian Dishes

Warrington (talk) 16:51, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

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This is stated to be an Austrian dish. The Austro-Hungarian Empire notwithstanding, the references appear to be strongly biased in favour of purely Hungarian sources. The current ref 5 appears to be broken currently. I'd correct it, but I don;t have a clue where it should point. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 17:37, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The Hungarian sources were in English, which makes them easier to read and check. Now there is just as many Austrian ones.

Warrington (talk) 19:53, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Title

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Shouldn't this be titled "Apple strudel"? I do think it's called by this English name in bakeries in the U.S. and other English-speaking nations. Badagnani (talk) 08:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Redirects handle that pretty well. I'm more concerned about the tone of the entire article, which requires a serious cleanup. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 09:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Policy (not guideline) is pretty clear on this. Regardless of tone and other aspects of the article, a name change and CSG G6 of the current Apple strudel redirect is called for. Bongomatic 17:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Deification of dessert

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While this is a dish that is redolent of the Viennese coffee houses, Apfelstrudel is a pretty generic piece of baked goods. There is no phrase "As Austrian as Apfelstrudel" in the same way there is the rather banal phrase "As American as Apple pie", and it is as generic a dish as apple pie.

It is, in fact, an apple pie with internal pastry.

In the same manner than a good apple pie is extremely enjoyable, so is a good strudel, but each is generic. Each is a dish of pretty humble origin, and each simply uses up apples.

Apfelstrudel is not a constellation in the heavens, it is not inviolate with only the one approved recipe, and it assuredly is not haute cuisine (or the Austrian equivalent). It's just an extremely enjoyable comestible provided one enjoys apples.

So can this article return from the state it is at now with the deification of Apfelstrudel to the place it ought to be, which is a simple, brief and to the point article saying what it is, where it comes from and broadly what is in it? Fiddle Faddle (talk) 15:33, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I guess this has been sorted out years ago, but let me state here once for the protocol that Apfelstrudel is not a generic baked good. It has a history of many hundred years and is made after a very specific recipe. To my knowledge it is still not sold as industrially produced food anywhere, even though many baked goods loosely resembling a strudel, basically everything with a "whirly" cross section are sold under the name, or a similar name.
Also in response to another of your, equally as old posts: you can use many types of oil replacing the butter, but a) well, duh! ;) and b) this is then a deviation from the original recipe and this would at least have to be mentioned. Gerald Jarosch (talk) 22:14, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
At a second thought: the whole controversy, if any, probably only comes from equating "Apfelstrudel" with "apple strudel". Maybe the "apple strudel"-folks are fine with the "whirly looking" apple pie definition. Apfelstrudel on the other hand means something very specific. Gerald Jarosch (talk) 04:06, 11 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I thought that the dish - being Austrian, so it would have a German name -was originally called "Apfelstrudel" and that "apple strudel" was simply the English translation of the original German name. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 10:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I like those poppyseed cakes, or are they strudels? Anyone? Danke. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:35, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mohnstrudel? I do hope I have the spelling right, but just say it aloud! Fiddle Faddle (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yankee Strudel
Yankee Doodle went to class
Riding on a gobbler
Traded turkey for some fruit
And made an apple cobbler.
—Jennifer Baxter, Grade 9
Is anyone interested in working on a poppy seed (poppyseed?) article? I am disturbed to find that the subject redirects to poppy. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:42, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The chinese translateion of the dish is based on the following

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--124.78.226.5 (talk) 12:52, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

--222.64.24.9 (talk) 13:05, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Intestine strudel: non-traditional (Retes.jpg)

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http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/File:Retes.jpg

We've got to do something about that second picture. It looks like someone's large intestine--although a deliciously crispy one. Baking Apfelstrudel this way is fine at home but it seems to misrepresent what should be in an article like this (e.g. what is common, typical, traditional, etc). Can anyone find any main-stream chefs or texts that bake it this way? I'm going to go out on a limb here, but in briefly looking through the history of the strudel this doesn't appear to be particularly common. A chef in training would also be reprimanded for baking it like this. Perhaps someone just really wanted to get their picture of a "strudel" in here?

Would someone that knows the interface better please do strudel lovers world-wide a favor and make this small change (I don't want to engage in wiki vandalism and don't know enough about properly formating a wiki image section to do this myself).

Recommended alternatives here:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Strudly.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&redirs=1&search=apple+strudel&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&redirs=0&search=apfelstrudel&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1

Thank you.

If there were a section on variations of the strudel (which I don't think is necessary), it would be fine in a section like that.

And yes, I'm trying to be a little funny here, but this is almost like doing an article on cinnamon rolls and then including a picture of how you can also bake them straight?? (Mmmmmmm, grandma's cinnamon rolls now slighty reminiscent of turd--delicious.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.231.187.34 (talk) 16:24, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It says "Home made". Fiddle Faddle (talk) 16:49, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. I know you're right (sigh). The picture also says "old fashioned", which I think most of us agree is quite likely to be true. But I think the question was more nuanced than that, it was really: "Is that 'Apple filling'", as indicated? This, among other things is what's wrong with that photo.

And that question remains.

Honestly, my initial reaction sets all that aside. At first I was just upset at the note on this page (http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/File:Retes.jpg) letting all of us readers know that: no higher resolution [was] available.

It's too bad really. It would answer a lot of questions.

[By the way, is this your "Home made","Old fashioned", "Strudel". If so, no offense was intended in my remarks. It's quite lovely really (as "strudels" go)]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.231.187.34 (talk) 18:32, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

not mine. I make them in a U shape :)
The main thing about the dish is that it is by no means always a restaurant dish. We ordinary peasants make it too :) Fiddle Faddle (talk) 18:42, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I agree. Lots of people make strudel. Although I'm not sure that's the focus of the article or the "main thing". And besides, even if we go with that logic then it should still be a reasonably representative sample of what peasants make, not that obscure one (unless you're going for totally obscure, in which case that photo doesn't work either).

I think many more commoners make strudel the way I do, which is in several discrete sections, not one long circular pile. So, I'm willing to concede your point that it's made by many different kinds of people (even if the article doesn't really discuss this), if you're willing to agree to a more representative sample of the way people make it. Are you?

If you don't like my original suggestion: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Strudly.jpg

Then let's find an alternative together, ok? Please?

I certainly provided many other options to choose from that I feel are more common. But if you don't think any of those would work, and would still like to make a point about us peasants also making it (which I like, and think is a decent point, although perhaps not entirely necessary), perhaps this imagery would be a closer mutually agreeable fit:

(I think the apples work. Although we'd need ro replace the horse):

http://www.altstadt-kultur-programm.de/images/Pferde_Apfel.jpg

The so called non traditional image removed from article

Perhaps we can agree on a new shape, and one of us can then "bake" and take a new picture of our own? Can we agree on that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.231.187.34 (talk) 19:22, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's very kind of u to use this image, but it's puff pastry filled with curd. It was very good one, but not filled with apple. 91.127.74.7 (talk) 21:51, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I work in the Wienbibliothek im Rathaus that owns the handwritten cook-book from 1696 including the - according to Wikipedia - first documented strudel recipes. In one of them, the writer says that the strudel was to be baked "like a snake", obviously because the dough was so long. Library mistress (talk) 11:37, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It would be wery nice of you to add this information to the article (By the way the IP above was editing from Washington DC) Hafspajen (talk) 13:17, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Bavarian cuisine

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This puts the apple strudel in category of Austrian cuisine, but I have a feeling it is also associated with Bavaria, so should it not be put in the category called "Bavarian cuisine"? ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:49, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Citation please. You need more than a feeling. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 21:20, 4 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK - how about this website: http://www.germanfoodguide.com/strudel.cfm http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-apple-strudel.htm

This website says that many varieties of apple strudel were developed in Eastern Europe, but it definitely says that both Austria and Bavaria were famous for their apple strudel. It does say, however, that the apple strudel was developed in Austria, so this article should certainly stay in the category "Austrian cuisine". I must say, I was a little surprised to see that this article was put in the categories of Czech cuisine, Hungarian desserts, Croatian cuisine and Italian cuisine - I would have thought that the apple strudel was far more commonly associated with Austria and Bavaria than with Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Croatia or Italy! ACEOREVIVED (talk) 15:18, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the feedback. I am glad that you think so and I have just added the article to the category called "Bavarian cuisine". ACEOREVIVED (talk) 11:07, 6 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This website: 

 http://www.germanfoodguide.com/strudel.cfm

describes the apple strudel as a "speciality of Austria and Bavaria". ACEOREVIVED (talk) 16:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There appears to be sufficient material there to justify your thinking. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 17:48, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Slow down, buddies. "Apfelstrudel" came "from the east" into Austrian cuisine. Of course a lot of Austrian dishes are also common in Germany, especially Bavaria, and vice versa. But that this dish can be called part of traditional Bavarian cuisine is news to me. And while the quoted page might formally justify the addition, I have a bad feeling about this. Wait for some Bavarians to weigh in on the issue. Gerald Jarosch (talk) 21:55, 10 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean when you say it "came from the east" into Austrian cuisine? I thought that it originated in Austria. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 10:49, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It definitely did not originate within the borders of contemporary Austria, but in the Austro-Hungarian empire, probably Hungary, maybe with Ottoman influences, who knows exactly ... everything that was good was brought to Vienna and from there it spread all over the empire. Hungarian, Croatian and Czech cuisine for example know this strudel under their own name. Austria-Hungary never expanded a lot further westward than Austria does now. Gerald Jarosch (talk) 15:41, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think that my post wasn't clear enough and could add some confusion, so let me elaborate: I use the term Austria-Hungary quite freely to refer to the pre-WWI Habsburg empire, even though the name was only used since the 1860s or something.
I also find it hard to define the meaning of "origin" in such a case. If you want to find out who "invented" french fries you'd have to find the person who first cut potatoes in strips and baked them in oil ;), that's of course not possible and nothing is ever just invented in a vacuum, you always build on something that existed before. But you can find out where the first known definite recipe was written down, where it first became an important part of the culinary culture, etc.
In the last sense, Vienna is the origin.
But in respect to Bavaria I just wanted to say that the strudel is something that drew on existing dishes in the eastern parts of the Habsburg empire, which where themselves influenced by cuisine from even further to the east, it fits more in the "intersection" of the cultures of Austrian and several eastern countries, not the culture Austria shares with Germany (of which Bavaria is arguable the most compatible). If it can be called part of "Bavarian cuisine", it came there only after the recipe was refined in Vienna.
Whether it is part of the cuisine is something I have even more difficulty to define, the only thing necessary is that enough Bavarians believe it to be true, and that's something I doubt, but can not be sure myself. Gerald Jarosch (talk) 22:37, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Apples

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User:Rmhermen is reverting my removal of the "Apples" template where it was included by a novice editor wherever there was a mere tangential connection with apples. He further feels he is above the rest of us and that edit summaries don't apply to him, perhaps because he is under some kind of delusion that being en editor grants him some kind of immunity. Now on the second revert on four separate articles he filled in an edit summary on one of the four, saying "subject is in template hence the correct inclusion of the template in this article".

If we go by that logic, that we need to add the "Apples" template to wherever an article mentions the word "apple" - every country or region that produces apples, every single dish that includes apples, every movie and song that mentions apples, Steve Job and Apple, ete etc. But then the work is only half done, for we will still need to include templates for the different types of sugar used in these products that use apples, the different types of flours, for example on the page Apple strudel, ..........

Let's be serious, that emplate belongs at Apple and the various pages on apple varieties and cultivars, as we do with grapes and wines. Or shall we add the grapes and wines templates at Coq au vin? Please, allow good sense to prevail. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 12:27, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If you wish to create separate templates for different aspects, you are free to do so. However as long as apple strudel is part of the Apple template (it is the dark black word because we automagically disallow self-links), it is a natural inclusion on this page as well as on any other article mentioned in it. There is no template grape but the Template:Wines includes sections on General, Styles and methods of production, Grape varieties, and Wine-producing countries and regions and is used in articles on all those disparate subjects. Coq au vin incidentally uses template chicken which includes articles on chickens in religion, sport, food, livelihood and chicken diseases. Also "Comment on content, not on the contributor." Rmhermen (talk) 13:36, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is my practice to "Comment on content, not on the contributor." when the contributor plays by the rules - like a little edit summary. Unless you feel it is beneath you. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 14:58, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

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  1. ^ Encyclopædia Britannica, Eleventh Edition
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