Talk:Apartheid/Archive 8

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pronunciation

Can anyone provide the Afrikaans pronunciation of apartheid in IPA? Not necessarily in the first sentence but somewhere near the beginning. Lfh (talk) 17:11, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Not in IPA, but it's 'uh-pehrt-hait' Invmog (talk) 02:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

IPA see Apartheid. -DePiep (talk) 00:20, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

-- Commentary from a first language Afrikaans speaker: The IPA given in the article is emphatically incorrect. The second syllable is stressed but is definitely not extended. The first two syllables are brief, and to an English speaker may even sound clipped, unless spoken in a cape town drawl. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.229.19.232 (talk) 01:25, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

GOLD.

This article also seems to miss the real reason for the collapse of Apartheid.

By the early and mid 90s South Africa was sending abroad some 9bn dollars in gold bullion. This was used by a large number of other countries to support their own currencies. While these same countries depending on a regular supply of South African gold for their very existance nobody was ever likely to do any more than take the purely moral high ground against apartheid. The Nationalist government would simply stop supply the gold to anybody with ambitions beyond this and transfer the gold to somebody less ambitious.

The UN embargo mnever did much good as the goods wanted by South Africa would be paid for in gold anyway.

IT was only after the worlds currancies began to move away from gold reserves that the moral cries became louder and small scale action action began.

As always it's the money that talks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.93.199.154 (talk) 09:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I think it is connected to Krugerrands and Dollar almost loosing its reserve currency status in 1980. Does anybody have more information on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.101.165.223 (talk) 15:45, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia needs reliable sources, so if you can provide any suggesting this is a factor, please do. Greenman (talk) 20:20, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

The Western economic sanctions caused huge harm to the people of South Africa - blacks mostly, of course. The sugestion of "moral high ground" is ironic, for the Wests "moral" stand caused far more harm than Apartheid ever did. South Africa still hasn't recovered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 01:33, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Separate Article?

Here's the deal: as the name suggests this article is all about South Africa and apartheid. Now, this no problem, however, this is where people are sent when they click on the link for South African history from 1948 to 1994. But this this article is mainly focused on apartheid in South Africa and its cruelties and demise, not the general history of that nation. Things like South Africa's help during the Korean War is overlooked, as it should be in an article mainly about apartheid, but I'm wondering if there should then be a separate article created to include the general history of South Africa from 1948 to 1994 as it might be inappropriate to include every last notable and verifiable detail of South Africa's general history from 1948 to 1994 into this article as this article is already well-honed to the subject of apartheid segregation in South Africa. Invmog (talk) 20:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I definitely support a separate article. This article is, quite rightly, specific to the subject of apartheid, but we should also have a more general history article for the period 1948 to 1994. I'd also suggest that we use Dablink on both the articles to give reader the opportunity to easily select the article they are interested in should they end up on the wrong one. Obviously the two articles will overlap to some extend; even in a general history article for that time period one will have to cover apartheids major events, but it can be done in less detail that this article and wiki linked where appropriate. There is a lot that happened during that time period that does not fit into this article, the Korean War being just one. First 4 SANAE bases were build. ESKOM, TELKOM and SASOL was established. Christiaan Barnard performed the first successful hart transplant... None of these has a place in an Apartheid specific article. --NJR_ZA (talk) 20:52, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

I definitely disagree with splitting them. If anything, perhaps a Scientific history of South Africa or expanding the already created Economic history of South Africa or Military history of South Africa. If the Korean War is important in your views, then create South African involvement in the Korean War. However, the apartheid regime was involved in all facets of life during that period and forking off would only create confusion and not add a substantial amount--TM 21:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Many of the Wikipedians who live in South Africa, are from SA, or are descendants of South Africans believe that apartheid was a horrible practice, just like segregation in the US and elsewhere, but we wouldn't call our government "the apartheid regime" as you and others have. As is natural we have a certain pride and respect in our heritage even if our predecessors made bad mistakes such as segregation and apartheid, and seeing as there a separate article for segregation in the US than there is for a period of history of the United States then it seemed only reasonable that a separate article be made to deal with the historical time period of South Africa from 1948-1994 apart from this article which deals primarily with the cruel practice of apartheid. Invmog (talk) 21:50, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Agree, make it so. Separate article. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 20:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree too, but that would be a massive project, should we suggest it at the WikiProject:Africa talk page or do we have any volunteers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Invmog (talk • contribs) 22:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC) Sorry; I forgot to sign -> Invmog (talk) 22:18, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. The history of South Africa from 1948-1994 cannot be separated from the history of apartheid, just as the history of Germany from 1933-1945 is indistinguishable from the history of the Third Reich. In the US, segregation, bad though as it was, was nonetheless a localized phenomenon confined to the southern states. In South Africa on the other hand, apartheid was the very base of the social, political and economic structure of the country as a whole. 161.24.19.112 (talk) 17:49, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

This article is apartheid specific; it doesn't deal with South Africa's involvement in the Korean war or other topics. This article used to be about the general history of South Africa from 1948-1994, but it changed and now it's honed to apartheid. We don't need to change it, we can just create a separate article. When you say that in the US segregation was a "localized phenomenon confined to the southern states" I hope you realize that the area occupied by the Southern States is more than one and a half times as large as the entire nation of South Africa. Many of us feel as though an independent article which focuses on the general history of South Africa from 1948-1994 is justified. Also, there is a separate article for the racial policies of the Nazis and other article for the Third Reich although they are obviously overlapping subjects. There would of course be made mention of apartheid on the new article, but its main focus would be the general history of the nation instead of an in-depth look at one of their government's regrettably flawed policies as is the main subject of this article. As you can see from the segregation in the US article it covers different subjects than what is covered in the History of the United States (1865–1918) article (I know they had segregation longer but they also had it during 1865–1918.) Invmog (talk) 05:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

As before, I concur with two previous editors that the article should not be split. 1) Apartheid is the most important feature of this period, being the basis of the country's political system and 2) that does not prevent other topics from being discussed in this article.

French Third Republic and Spain under Franco are two examples. Obviously, during these periods there were developments in France and Spain that were not directly related to the political systems under which they operated. The names of these articles don't prevent them from covering these developments (such as WW1 in France's case, and the withdrawal from Morocco in Spain's case).

If this article is deficient in its coverage, the answer is to expand it with your knowledge and research of the korean war, etc. This task will not be made any easier by splitting the article. BillMasen (talk) 07:09, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, my intention was never to split the article; this article seems to be doing OK by itself. The proposed subject at hand is that some of the editors feel justified in created an entirely separate article without jeopardizing this one.

You said, "Apartheid is the most important feature of this period, being the basis of the country's political system" Was segregation against the Aborigines Australia's most important feature? Was apartheid the the basis for the entire government of the Republic of South Africa? What about their Constitution? Apartheid was a bad facet of the old South African government, not the government a bad facet of the old apartheid.

As far as just adding things onto this article: there is an article for SA's history from 1910 to 1948 and there's an article about South Africa's history from 1994-present. This article used to be the one in between, but it was renamed and then its focused shifted to dealing primarily with the institution and demise of apartheid, and then a good general history of South Africa article from 1948 to 1994 was passed over.

I don't need consensus on this page to create that article (because it won't directly change this article), but it would be a massive project and so I was looking for ideas and help. Invmog (talk) 00:55, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

If created, expect it to be taken to AfD for discussion.--TM 01:12, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Relax, buddy. I wouldn't make an article if I wasn't prepared to discuss it. Besides, it would take me at least 5 months to get around to it and then untold weeks of work if I decide to spend that much time on it. Simply put: unless another interested editor or group of editors take the initiative then it's not likely to be a problem for you anytime soon. Invmog (talk) 03:29, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I apologize if my words seem curt. Claiming you "don't need approval", while true, is impolite, especially on a talk page. Creating such an article is a content fork, however.--TM 04:49, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Was apartheid the the basis for the entire government of the Republic of South Africa? Actually, yes. It was a system of discrimination which subjected the majority of the population, and elevated the remainder to a priveleged status. What about their Constitution? What the government actually does is far more important than what it claims to believe in. The constitution of 1961 only claims that South Africa is a "republic", a designation which has included polities as diverse as Italy and North Korea, the USA and San Marino, Pinochet's Chile and the Soviet Union. As for the claims to be represent the will of God, I consider that no more revealing than East Germany calling itself the Democratic Republic. Apartheid was a bad facet of the old South African government, not the government a bad facet of the old apartheid. Any history of South Africa in this period will identify Apartheid as its most important feature. Therefore the article about SA's history is going to have apartheid in its name. Was segregation against the Aborigines Australia's most important feature? Ask the historians. If histories of that country in that period identify that as the most important feature, then rename that article. For my money, since aborigones don't constitute a majority, their subjection is not the primary feature of that country's later history, though it was the most important in previous eras.

As I said before, there is no obstacle whatever to adding non-apartheid historical material to this page. In fact, I think it would be a great improvement to the article. Why don't you do that? What if we rename the article to South Africa in the apartheid era?BillMasen (talk) 09:41, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Alright, NamibiaTM, you're right; I should have been more civil. I wanted to point out that I didn't want to spend a lot of precious time discussing things that I wasn't planning on spending time on for least the next 5 months, probably more.

Bill Masen, in keeping with me trying to spend less time on Wikipedia I didn't want to get into a long discussion about an idea that I may never act upon anyway. If I wanted to spend a lot of time on Wikipedia we could add stuff to this article I just thought that not all historians would consider the segregation of apartheid in South Africa that nation's "most important feature" (as in fact there had been forms of segregation in SA and the USA for hundreds of years before "official" segregation and apartheid.) Even for the period from 1948 to 1994 many South Africans would feel swindled if their most honorary mention was a system which almost all of them are ashamed of and deeply regret. Many of them are proud of their infrastructure which they built in that time and the first successful heart transplant Christiaan Barnard performed in the entire world which happened in SA, etc. I thought that this article did such a good job with dealing with apartheid that it would muddle the information add things about involvement in foreign wars or the South Africans success at providing electricity without interruption to their nation (something that the current ANC fails to do, among other things.)

Anyway, so the conclusion of the matter is count me out from any serious editing for about 2 months and then I'll be without access to Wikipedia for three months and so when I get back at the end of 5 months I probably won't care to spend the amount of effort it would take to get a History of South Africa (1948-1994) page up and running, but if I do then it'll probably get shot down anyway, so until then we needn't discuss this tangent subject ad nauseam. Invmog (talk) 02:36, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Wikipedia isn't about the feelings of South Africans or anyone else. I think it is a great shame that a great part of my own country's history is defined by a venal empire. I suppose the lesson is, yet again, that we shouldn't define ourselves by our country's history, or hold ourselves responsible for it.

You are of course correct that segregation existed in south africa before 1948. However, the system of apartheid was regarded as a new departure, both by its supporters and by its critics who had authored the formerly existing discriminatory legislation.

I do believe that your suggestions would add to the article, not muddle it. BillMasen (talk) 08:22, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Well then, if you insist, if I find that I have spare time or after I get back in 5 months, having your consent, I could very well add stuff to this article in the future about other aspects of South Africa during that time period. Invmog (talk) 03:10, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Two seperate articles should certainly exist, one covering Aparthied in South Africa and the other covering the History of South Africa from 1948 - 1994. What has been stated above regarding the overlapping of the two articles is of-course true, certain events will be referenced in both articles as the history of South Africa during that period will always be dominated by Aparthied. But if Wikipedia wants to be all encompassing then it must have a complete history of South Africa during the Aparthied era 1948-1994, however at the same time Apartheid is an important enough topic to have an in-depth article of it's own, seperate from the History of South Africa during that period. It's quite logical really. 41.181.56.160 (talk) 15:16, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

This debate misses the point of the real problem, which is this: there is no article formatted to describe Apartheid-Era South Africa as a distinct political regime. The article on the Union of South Africa has at the infobox the Apartheid-era flag, but links directly to the article for present-day South Africa. Imagine if the article for the German Empire included both Wilhelmine and Weimar periods, because the state was still technically called "Deutsches Reich" after the revolution. This problem might or might not necessitate a separate article (I would lean towards yes), but thinking about this or a new article as one for a historical country, rather than for an era or a particular (albeit essential) aspect of the social structure is the solution. Then there is a place for things like South African involvement in the Korean War, or whatever else. TLDR: I want an infobox. 144.89.178.89 (talk) 22:07, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that the term "Apartheid" does not solely refer to south africa apartheid. Apartheid is a more general term, and wikipedia should reflect that. Right now the article insinuates as if Apartheid existed only in South africa alone, but that is incorrect. 84.112.136.52 (talk) 14:20, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I believe that despite this been a painful part of our history, it should remain one article. Separating Apartheid and South Africa would akin to ignoring it and it’s history. An we ( as the black community) to refer to Apartheid as the “Apartheid Regiem”. Most events that occurred in that period where directly linked to Apartheid, such as the Korean War. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DumaTorpedo (talk • contribs) 14:28, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

unsourced POV edit removed

Someone thankfully removed a biased and unsourced edit to the article but perhaps the IP editor just never heard of a talk page before so while I don't agree with just about all of what this editor said I'm putting it here in case they want to talk about or find out why it was removed. It said:

"Let's not forget that the majority of areas where in fact "blacks only" if not specified by law or mandate. Making a relatively safe area for whites to live and go to school in was not a lot to ask for. Also, why is there no mention of "mother tongue education" as this was actually meant to further black education in black regions. Without any travel or fees required. Schools were built with white tax money (as black were not required to pay tax) and subsequently, and ungratefully burned down in demonstrations against the white government regime. Just another reason to blame the whites for not educating the blacks i suppose?"

Some points are kinda interesting, but the tone is very unWikipedian and most the argument sort of defeats itself not to mention clear POV and no sources but feel free to comment. Invmog (talk) 19:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Lot's of the language used in the article is polemical and prejudicial. --41.135.17.23 (talk) 12:58, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

It is a good point to make - anybody from South Africa or knowing its history would care to add this info to the article? Zezen (talk) 14:46, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Philosophy of apartheid

I have removed the following text. This is important stuff and ideally needs to be developed into a section about the philosophical background to apartheid and how the thinking changed over time. However, the text I've removed was not coherent or properly cited, so I have moved it here rather than attempt to rewrite it:

However, Werner Eiselen, the man who led the design of apartheid, argued that the government could not sustain segregation and white supremacy. He also, in 1948, proposed apartheid as a "political partition" policy instead of segregation in public facilities. Hence, the idea behind apartheid was more one of political separation, later known as "grand apartheid," than segregation, later known as "petty apartheid." Hendrik Frensch Verwoerd is considered the most influential politician in the growth of apartheid and described it as "a policy of good neighbourliness".

Zaian (talk) 20:07, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

The introduction is biased and incorrect. Apartheid is not based on "white supremacy and Afrikaner minority rule". That is simply false. Grand apartheid is philosophically against the supremacy of any one group - i.e. majority rule. Afikaner rule is a separate matter entirely to Apartheid. I suggest a re-write by an editor who is not so biased against Afrikaners.124.197.15.138 (talk) 01:31, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.23.218.220 (talk) 16:49, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I AGREE THIS ARTICLE IS A SHAM. A SHAM. TO SAY THAT AFRIKANERS BELIEVED IN RACIAL SUPERIORITY. THE WHITES WERE 10% - 15% OF THE ENTIRE POPULATION, THEY KNEW VERY WELL WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THEY CLAIMED RACIAL SUPERIORITY. THEY WOULD BE CHALLENGED ON THE BATTLEFIELD BY AFRICA'S ARMIES. NO IT WAS THE SOVIET UNION THAT PERSISTED WITH THAT PROPAGANDA LIE TO SEPARATE AND BREAK WHITE SOUTH AFRICA FROM ITS BLACK CAPITALIST ALLIES - UNITA, RENAMO, BOTSWANA AND MANY OTHER AFRICAN COUNTRIES THAT SUPPORTED THE WHITES IN SOUTH AFRICA. DO YOU THINK 3 MILLION PEOPLE DIED IN ANGOLA, MOZAMBIQUE, ZAIRE, BELGIUM CONGO, TANZANIA FOR CHARITY? NO THEY DIED TO HELP THE WHITE CAPITALISTS, CAPITALISM, TO SUPPORT THEM ETC. VS. THE SOVIET UNION WHO WANTED TO DESTROY THE WHITES OF SOUTH AFRICA. THE USSR SOLD THIS RACIAL SUPERIORITY LIE TO BREAK THE ALLIANCES BETWEEN THE SOUTH AFRICAN WHITES AND ALL THEIR OTHER PRO-CAPITALIST BLACK ARMIES IN AFRICA. THE WHITES WANTED SEPARATE COUNTRIES TO REMAIN IN CONTROL OF THEIR COUNTRY. THAT WAS ALL. THEY COULDN'T CARE LESS WHO WAS SUPERIOR. THEY JUST HAD TO CHECK THE ENTIRE AFRICA VS. THE WORLD TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT ONE. BUT THE SOVIET UNION WANTED ALL THE SOUTH AFRICAN WEALTH. SO THEY LIED AND DISTORTED TO CREATE DIVISIONS BETWEEN EVERYONE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.171.251.81 (talk) 12:44, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

GOLD addition

I missed a couple of words from my original input. The figure should have read $9BN...a month.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.93.199.154 (talk) 09:56, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

More GOLD.

It was a speech by Henrik Verwoerd in Pretoria that probably best summarises the South African situation with Apartheid and the gold exports.

     "Nobody is going to bother South Africa while they need our gold".

This may have been recorded in "Die Transvaler".

According to the 1960s British newspaper "Daily Worker", Field Marshal Montgomery had offered his services to the Nationalist government

        "to clear the blacks out of South Africa".

Unfortunately I don't whether there was ever an answer to this offer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.93.199.154 (talk) 10:05, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Suppression of Communism Act

I suspect anti-communism was an excuse for that repressive law, given the early Cold War date; however, I don't have a reliable source on hand backing up that supposition. However, the Cold War and McCarthyism are both well-known facts, so I simply stated those facts without the suspicion. Nonetheless, communism was probably a pretty handy scapegoat... 192.12.88.7 (talk) 06:18, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

McCarthyism had nothing to do with suppression of communism in South Africa. Zaian (talk) 06:30, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes

This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Pending changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:06, 17 June 2010 (UTC).

ANC strategy to end Apartheid and "people's war"

The problem I have with this section is that the source used, while generally respected, makes a number of exceptional claims (like most of the ANC exiles were armed soldiers and the 1994 election was "so chaotic that no accurate result could be computed"). These claims, which are not generally supported by most other sources make me question the reliability of the source overall.--TM 10:45, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

The section is based on a single source, and uncritically reproducing the points argued by that source results in a POV section, which is not appropriate for a Wikipedia article. It would be far better to use facts cited in that source to improve other parts of the article. Anonymous editor, if you are willing to do that, great, otherwise I'm inclined to remove the whole section to the talk page until someone else does. Zaian (talk) 14:21, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

There are two sources cited for this section, including a trascript of the original Green Book which was adopted by the ANC as a strategy document in 1979. The transcript of the green book was translated by the previous ANC minister for cultural affairs and should therefore be very reliable. As such I will endeavour to list additional sources which also concurs with the information in this section. As most of the article highlights the situation and strategy of the incumbend government during Apartheid, it would seem pertinent to also state the strategic rationale employed by the ANC as main detractors of the policy of Apartheid. This therefore should rather evolve into a more prominent section and could even become an article in it's own right. Feel free to add data as you wish.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.246.222.166 (talk) 14:24, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, an analysis of the ANC's strategy is valid in this article, but however many sources you find for the text that you have added, it doesn't change the fact that this whole section is derived from the SAIRR publication and pushes the SAIRR publication's agenda. You need to merge the content with the rest of the article, otherwise it will remain a POV section. Zaian (talk) 15:07, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

It would be entirely possible to add to the section from other sources whose opinion may not be shared by the SAIRR, don't you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.246.222.166 (talk) 16:08, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's also an option. Are you offering, or are you suggesting that someone else should do that? Zaian (talk) 20:57, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't think creating another section is a solution for this section. This section should be deleted and entirely rewritten using a variety of reputable sources.--TM 05:44, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I've removed the section, since the anonymous author didn't make the suggested improvements, and why should others have to clean up his/her POV work? Zaian (talk) 10:31, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

International recognition of the Bantustans

I have added a section dealing with the extent to which the Bantustans where regarded as sovereign states by other countries. I feel this is germane to the article given that this goes to the point of Bantustan independence; the SA gov at the time wanted desperately to have the BS states as independent polities while most of the rest of the world disagreed. Further, I think it is important that Israel's very cosy relationship with the apartheid gov be recorded somewhere, and this is as good a place as any.Eccohomo (talk) 05:59, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Reverted; none of this constitutes recognition; the main source used is highly questionable. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Israel and South African relationships were up and down. In fact in a UN vote on whether to bring in sanctions against South Africa, Israel was the only country to vote for them. Israel needed to "hate" South Africa in order to make friends with the rest of Africa. After the Sixday war, when Africa severred all ties with Israel, only then did they crawl to South Africa to be friends. Even now they are both in very similar conditions, both states who give preference to one ethnic group over another. The only difference is that the Palestians have some sort of homeland (or area), the White South Africans have none. Israel never recognised the Bantustans because then other countries would threaten to sever ties with Israel such as Europe and the US. Bezuidenhout (talk) 08:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Applicability of Template:Infobox former country

Before i'd do something stupid on my own (like adding the template in question), I would like to know if anyone thinks that this template is applicable?
I, for one, think that this template is very much applicable - Because it discusses an era of which the white race was dominant, which isn't the same as today in which South Africa is multi-racial.
Your reply is very much wanted. --Jjulio Milagros Ccesar (talk) 13:45, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Well South Africa has always been multi-racial. The only difference between this South Africa and the one under apartheid is that there are multiple races in the business spectrum. Political parties are still either Black or non-black, the president has to be a black anti-apartheid activist (just like the president had to be white under apartheid). I will accept you add that template once you add one to America, when it was unofficially under apartheid too. Bezuidenhout (talk) 14:22, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

So, is that a NO, or a YES? --Jjulio Milagros Ccesar (talk) 08:03, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Err... the president has to be black just like he had to white under apartheid? which country are you talking about ? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 08:37, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

@Jjulio it is a NO :) @Seb, South Africa. I think I read it somewhere where because of the Broederbond or something the National party only allowed white male calvinists to be president. And now of course I can't imagine a non-black non-ANC non-Anti-apartheid activist becoming president? Bezuidenhout (talk) 08:52, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, I don't know about calvinist and Afrikaner, but certainly under apartheid the president, by law, had to be white. There is no law in present-day SA that says the president needs to be black. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 09:13, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Not officially Bezuidenhout (talk) 09:51, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

You're making soapbox statements, and this is not the place. Zaian (talk) 12:01, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

OK, but apart from my soapbox statements, I think this is a no because apartheid wasn't exactly a "nation", sure the flag (but not COA) changed in 1994, but just like America transformed into a more multi-racial (for example that black people had to give up their sear in buses etc.), I think South Africa did the same. However some people vaguely put a date to when SA "transformed", most commonly in 1994, but 'whites only' signs were coming down even in the eighties. On a serious and unopinionated note I think it's a no from me, the situation is different to for example the Union of South Africa/Republic of South Africa. Bezuidenhout (talk) 14:57, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Definitely a No, definitely the same country. Zaian (talk) 06:32, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Removal of 'International Recognition of the Bantustans'

This section was removed. I am not an expert, but a quick web search shows that international recognition is an important topic and it was, indeed, limited. I don't know about the 2nd paragraph yet, or the claim, by the person who removed this that the sources are not good enough. So I'm bringing this to the talk page, so that we can consider putting at least parts of it back. futurebird (talk) 14:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

It's simple: there was no recognition. The TRNC has a trade-mission in the UK; that doesn't mean it's recognized by the British government. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:37, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I think an edited version of this portion should be restored to the main article. I think readers need to know about the complex position that aparthied occupied in the world, and that other nations (such as Israel) played a role in enabling the SA government to comitt the human rights attrocities associated with aparthied. To simply state that there was 'no' recognition oversimplifies things a bit; there was never full recognition, but Israel did, in some crucial respects, treated the Bantustans as though they were real countries. The point about the TRNC supports my argument. The relationship between the UK and the TRNC is analogous to that between the Bantustans and Israel. The UK treats the TRNC as though it is a country, in some respects, even if it stops short of extending the same sort of recognition it would extend to France, for example. It is impossible for a polity to build a trade mission in a country unless the country believes, on some level, it is dealing with another country. Contrats the TRNC with Western Sahara, or many other unrecognized states; the UK would never allow such entities to build trade missions in London, because it does not regard them as even remotely country-like.

And the point about the trade mission ignores the fact that the Israeli government hosted offocials from these countires and sold weapons to their governments. Again, this shows that Israel may not have believed the Bantustans were actually fully-flegded countries, they did extend some sort of recognition to them; how is it possible for a govrenment to openly sell weapons to an entitity which it does not recognize at all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.133.30.135 (talk) 07:13, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

International Recognition of the Bantustans

Bantustans within the borders of South Africa were classified as ‘self-governing’ or’ independent’. In theory, self-governing Bantustans had control over many aspects of their internal functioning but were not yet sovereign nations while independent Bantustans (Transkei, Bophutatswana, Ciskei and Venda; also known as the TBVC states) were intended to be fully sovereign. In reality, lack of economic infrastructure meant all the Bantustans were little more than puppet states controlled by South Africa.

International recognition for these new countries was extremely limited. Each TBVC state extended recognition to the other independent Bantustans while South Africa showed its commitment to the notion of TBVC sovereignty by building embassies in the various TBVC capitals. Israel was the only internationally recognized country and UN member to afford some sort of diplomatic recognition to any of the Bantustans, though formal acknowledgment of the Bantustans as fully-fledged countries never occurred. In late 1982, the Ciskei Trade Mission opened in Tel Aviv, flying its own flag and staffed by two Israelis, Yosef Schneider and Nat Rosenwasser, who were employed by the Ciskei Foreign Ministry. Bophuthatswana also had a representative in Israel, Shabtai Kalmonowitz. In 1983 Israel was visited by the presidents of both Bophuthatswana and Ciskei, as well as by Venda’s entire chamber of commerce. During this visit Lennox Sebe, the Ciskeian Prescient secured a contract with the Israeli government to supply and train his armed forces. Initially, six planes – at least one a military helicopter – were sold to Ciskei, and 18 Ciskei residents arrived in Israel for pilot training. In 1985 Israel received Buthelezi as Chief Minister of KwaZulu during an unofficial visit in 1985. Further, Taiwan encouraged business deals between Taiwanese investors and homeland industries.

Error in Introduction?

In the opening header, it reads:

"...apartheid as an official policy was introduced following the general election of 1993."

Is this an error? Does this refer to the general election of 1948? I am by no means an expert. Rfreed314 (talk) 22:11, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

It was vandalism that I reverted. Johnuniq (talk) 23:50, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Rfreed314 (talk) 19:45, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

It is worth mentioning that "Apartheid" was not used to describe the racially motivated polices in 1948. The term came later. 1948 is significant because of the National Party's rise to political dominance which, in turn, led to specific laws and policies. Racially discriminatory policies were already in place long before. Using the term to describe South Africa's racial laws and policies before the time of Verwoerd is applying it retroactively, which is not necessarily wrong, but should be clarified.41.160.161.117 (talk) 15:00, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

If anything, the term came a couple of decades earlier and was used by Malan in political debate as an alternative to segregation before the end of World War II. Giliomee, for example, documents the term's genealogy in The Afrikaners and other publications. The term "apartheid" is used repeatedly in the NP's election manifesto and other campaign documents from 1948. Perhaps you're thinking of "separate development," which replaced "apartheid" in official NP discourse later on. Sgelbman (talk) 22:06, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Publications Help?

I am aware this is not an appropriate place to post this but, I am certain that the Malaysian government is not allowing the site to contact anyone about publishing and distribution. I cannot find a copy of this book for sale anywhere. Could Wikipedia source a point of sale or help the author to get some sort of book deal? I noticed that the emails to the site are also not being answered. Maybe all communications are blocked somehow? I know that socio-political apartheid aginst the Chinese and Indian minorities is being done, also LGBT is being suppressed in Malaysia, so this could also add to the reason for this book to be published. I think the authors site has references to LGBT support, which Malaysia's extreme section of Islamists hate. Just wanted to shine a light on some degenerates and give some authors a hand. See site below :

http://malaysiandemocracy.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/ajttmhob.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.106.150.138 (talk) 18:10, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Awkward titling?

Why is the title here "South Africa under apartheid" and not just "Apartheid"? The vast majority of sources point to Apartheid as a piece of South African history. Why does the title have to call out "South Africa"? It strike me that this is a somewhat awkward attempt to differentiate between actual apartheid, and the various analogies to apartheid in other contexts that have been made over time. I'm sure this discussion has been had before, so I only ask that some more involved editor point me in the direction of that discussion. NickCT (talk) 15:09, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I partly agree with you, as an article "South Africa under.." would refer to EVERYTHING that occured under that time (such as improved healthcare and the economic boom), but instead this article focuses on apartheid. On the other hand people sometimes refer to what is happening in Israel as Apartheid, but this is very contraversial as that is actually a very different situation (in Israel the "oppresors" are Jews, who are the majority, while in SA whites are a minority, also in Israel Arabs are allowed to vote, and have almost the same rights as Jews). Bezuidenhout (talk) 15:48, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

"sometimes refer to what is happening in Israel as Apartheid" - If someone claims that what's happening in Israel is apartheid, they are wrong b/c Apartheid refers to a specific thing that happened in South Africa. If someone claims that what's happing in Israel is like apartheid, they may be correct (don't want to wade too far into that debate).

I know this is off-point, but is "Jews, who are the majority," true? If you combine the population of the Palestinian territories and "Arab Israelis" (or "Arab citizens of Israel", whatever the politically-correct term is) are Jews a slight minority? NickCT (talk) 18:12, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok, your first statement was kind of irrelevant because I meant that, I know there aren't signs saying "non-jews" for benches. Secondly I think your second point is off-topic for thie discussion. But for my own interest there are over 5.7 million Jews in Israel and an extra ~500,000 in West Bank, so thats 6.2 million, as apposed to 5.3 million Palestinians in Israel/WestB/Gaza. But I don't classify Gaza as part of Israel anymore, especially since it has mostly Palestinian control (with the exception of the military) and has virtually no more Jews living there. So that can possibly bring down the arabs to 3.8 mil arabs. Either way Jews are a majority, and a 75% Majority in Israel itself, wheras whites in SA made up a majority in NO province or region, let alone a country. Apart from that, the article shouldn't be placed at its current title. If we keep it as this then we should start a demgrophical section and maybe an economical section on the "secrets of apartheid-South Africa". Bezuidenhout (talk) 18:53, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok. Well this thread doesn't seem to have generated much comment, but there doesn't appear to be anyone arguing "South Africa under apartheid" is a logical title. Would anyone oppose a move request being put in for this page to simply be titled "Apartheid"? NickCT (talk) 19:30, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

There's a long history over several years of debate over the name - perhaps you want to read the archive arguments and see whether you still want to pursue the change. Greenman (talk) 20:42, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Can you point to any RfCs or move requests in recent history (i.e. the past three years)? NickCT (talk) 20:49, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Changing the name would not be helpful. This article is about South Africa and its apartheid system, its background, consequences, and so on. If the article were just "Apartheid", people would want to focus on merely that term, and start introducing modern day usage, and other unhelpful stuff. Johnuniq (talk) 02:36, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I think our point is that the term "Apartheid" refers to "South Africa and its apartheid system", so including South Africa in the title seems sorta redundant. I don't feel too strongly about this, but at the same time, I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of move request/RfC/straw poll to try and demonstrate consensus. NickCT (talk) 12:53, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Arpatheid also took place in South-West Africa (Namibia), so having South Africa in the title implies that this article is not fully inclusive, which it is. Besides, when people think "Apartheid", they think of the system in South Africa and Namibia that was in place from 1948 to 1994, and Apartheid already redirects here. Charles Essie (talk) 23:51, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Western influence

This part is pure Reagan and Thatcher apologetics.

Other Western countries adopted a more ambivalent position. In the 1980s, both the Reagan and Thatcher administrations, in the USA and UK respectively, followed a 'constructive engagement' policy with the apartheid government, vetoing the imposition of UN economic sanctions on South Africa, justified by a belief in free trade and a vision of South Africa as a bastion against Marxist forces in Southern Africa.

"Ambivalent position." "Constructive engagement."

This goes against Wiki's policy of not using weasel words and phrases.

Reagan and Thatcher never spoke out against racism. There is nothing in their lives that suggest that they should have felt even the least bit ambivalent about what went on in South Africa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.253.73.146 (talk) 21:17, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

End of Apartheid: 1993 or 1994

In 1993 the last of the apartheid legislation was abolished; Negotiations to end apartheid in South Africa has information. Essentially, apartheid had to be ended before everyone could vote!

Grant McKenna (talk) 06:10, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Apartheid did not end until we as black South Africa had a chance to participate in our own country via a democracatic process, thus 1995 DumaTorpedo (talk) 14:27, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Racism in South Africa redirect

Resolved

Redirect has been changed to broader racism article. HelenOnline 08:31, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Why does "Racism in South Africa" redirect here? That should be a separate article there. Racism of all kinds existed wayyy before Apartheid even started (before 1948 there was an informal apartheid just like in America that existed) but even now there is still wide-spread racism and prejudice, maybe an article of Racism against blacks and also against whites should be made? Bezuidenhout (talk) 10:16, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree, it should have a separate article, in that Apartheid is over, but racism in South Africa is still a problem. Charles Essie (talk) 18:28, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

I have changed the Racism in South Africa redirect to Racism instead of here. HelenOnline 07:59, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

---

South Africa under apartheid → Apartheid in South Africa – I think this title would be better as it would match the category title and as it would emphasise Apartheid which is the subject of the article. Vale of Glamorgan (talk). Also, as mentioned in an earlier discussion, "South Africa under apartheid" actually refers to anything and everything that happened in South Africa from 1948 to 1994 - the proposed title focuses specifically on the apartheid system.Vale of Glamorgan (talk) 13:23, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support. As per nom. Crisp and clear title. -DePiep (talk) 14:15, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
• Conflicted The proposed title suggests we should have other "Apartheid in X" articles. However that would be a mistake because while people talk about "apartheid" here and there (to disagree with some usually political position), there is no apartheid except for South Africa in the historical period described in this article. I know there are other "apartheid" articles, but they are named by a false analogy. Johnuniq (talk) 02:26, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Response No more than the current title suggests we should have other "X under apartheid" articles. My first preference would be to rename this article Apartheid but as that doesn't seem to be possible Apartheid in South Africa is second best. Changing the name of this article would not make it more or less likely that other "Apartheid in X" or "X under apartheid" articles would be created. If that is your concern the way to address that is by getting any such articles deleted, not through the naming of this article. Vale of Glamorgan (talk) 05:12, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support I have thought that this title was cumbersome and misplaced for years. First off, Apartheid in Namibia/South West Africa was quite real and different than apartheid in South Africa. Quite worthy of a separate article IMO.--TM 05:26, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support Agreed with TM. (By the way, Johnuniq, as defined under the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, the crime of apartheid (a crime against humanity) needn't be exactly identical to South African apartheid. Under the Rome Statute's definition, Israel can be called an apartheid state. Additionally, Rhodesia is another example, besides Namibia/South West Africa, of an historical apartheid state. Apartheid is not a purely South African phenomenon.) — Life in General ^Talk/_Stalk 15:24, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

  Sorry to breach NOTFORUM, but those examples are political assertions not based in reality. Yes, there are similarities, and the word "apartheid" can be stretched to mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean, but there was only ever one true apartheid, while we have Apartheid (disambiguation) for the other cases also described as "apartheid". Still, I have to get with the times, and it is true that words get watered down and extended as time passes, so I'm not objecting to the move. Johnuniq (talk) 06:42, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Van Schalkwyk apology

Regarding this edit, I've reverted, since every news source I can find refers to this as an apology, although I agree the words quoted in the article are ambiguous. The source claims it as an apology so let's rather leave in for now and search for the full text to verify. Greenman (talk) 23:51, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Reversions like this are one of the reasons I have stopped editing Wikipedia. While I appreciate the acknowledgement, frankly it is hard to asssume good faith when one has observed repeated examples of a) reversions that suggest waiting for some unspecified period; b) ambiguity as a defence, c) the reversion war, d) the apparently neutral review in which friends of the reverter get involved.

It is self-evident that Mr. van Schalkwyk's words do not represent an apology. You acknowledge as much. At best they can be attributed to the NNP as an entity rather than the individual who occupied the leadership position at that time.

In the Guardian article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/11/southafrica.andrewmeldrum) two phrases are cited verbatim on the matter of apology; a BBC article covering the same press conference (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4429307.stm) also cites item 1:

1) "The National party brought development to a section of South Africa, but also brought suffering through a system grounded on injustice,"

2) "No party ... could hope to successfully atone and move ahead in the same vehicle,"

Neither quotation represents an apology. Neither reflects any personal sentiment. The first is an acknowledgement that apartheid was a mistake; the second is merely an allusion to what a party can or cannot expect to get away with tactically.

You are obviously knowledgeable about South Africa. I assume you are familiar with the context in which Mr. van Schalkwyk made these remarks - disbanding the National Party to join that of his former enemies. He was slated at the time by FW de Klerk and faced harsh criticism from NNP supporters (see the Guardian article). He earned a reputation in the Afrikaans press as something of a quisling never mind becoming the subject of much derision.

Social psychology and communication science teach that messages from which a communicator will benefit are never as credible as those made when nothing is at stake. Mr van Schalkwyk's words hardly compare to those offered by messrs de Klerk (on more than one occasion), Vlok and Wessels: none of whom stood to benefit from what they said when they said it. Mr de Klerk withdrew from the Government of National Unity. Mr Vlok only heaped humility, if not humiliation on himself. Mr Wessels' remarks at the TRC are self-incriminating - a step considerably further down the path of contrition than apology. (see Leon Wessels)

The suggestion that "... the source claims it as an apology ..." is disingenuous. Both sources resort to editorializing. They find it necessary to frame Mr. van Schalkwyk's words as an apology rather than allowing them to speak for themselves. Consider the event that the articles were covering. What is germane: that the National Party is finally being disbanded, that the leadership is sacrificing the party to protect their political careers, or that there is an apology by another apartheid-era politician. In deciding your answer consider that Mr Wessels apologizes in 1990, messrs de Klerk and Vlok in 1997. Mr van Schalwyk waits 8 years (or 15 if one is parsimonious). When Mr Vlok washes the feet of Rev Chikane the South African Council of Churches responds: ".... Vlok and his former government colleagues still [owe] the South African people a full confession." I wonder what they made of Mr van Schalkwyk's words.Suidafrikaan (talk) 02:46, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you. However, it is not self evident since there is no link to Van Schalkwyk's full statement, but numerous sources describe it as an apology. They may all be wrong, but there needs to be a reliable source making this claim. Let's find the full statement, and let's find a reliable source that frames the statement in the same way as you do. In the meantime, the claim can be flagged with an appropriate template so that others can investigate further. Greenman (talk) 09:10, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Precursors of Apartheid

In the article there is a section that reads:

"in 1797 the Landdrost and Heemraden of Swellendam and Graaff-Reinett (the Dutch colonial governing authority) extended pass laws beyond slaves and ordained that all Hottentots moving about the country for any purpose should carry passes."

The problem with this statement is that the Dutch had already surrendered the Cape to the British on 16 September 1795. In short, there was only a BRITISH colonial governing authority at the time, and no Dutch authority. The new British Commander at the Cape, Major-General Craig, was very clear about his intentions towards the white "Dutch" Afrikaners ("Boors", as he calls them), as can be seen from his own 12 April 1796 letter to his bosses in London. He proposes to arm the indigenous Hottentots to intimidate the "Dutch" Afrikaner citizens whose welfare had been entrusted to him :

"Amongst the measures which I have been anxious to carry into effect for some time past has been that of collecting and arming a body of Hottentots. Nothing I know would intimidate the Boors of the Country more..[...]... I have assurance of near 200 who ought to have arrived some days ago...[...]... I have promised to arm and cloathe them, to give them rations, and sixpence per week, on condition of their engaging not to quit His Majesty's Service for a year."

The above provides both the required references and the essential background to events at the Cape at the time.

References:

Cfogge (talk) 06:08, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

The end of Apartheid and the end of Communism

There has been some small mention of the West seeing Apartheid as a bastion against Marxism.

However, I feel that this needs to be stressed. Apartheid was kept afloat by US and European loans and investment. As soon as it became clear that the USSR was finished, that money dried up. The West had no more use for a government that was founded by people who had been jailed during the Second World War for being Nazi sympathisers, a system which they had lost millions of men in defeating.

It's no coincidence that Apartheid and the Berlin Wall came down within a year of each other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.77.168.5 (talk) 14:25, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Misleading

Resolved

Redirect has been changed to broader racism article. HelenOnline 08:35, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

This article is not about racism in South Africa, it is about historical Apartheid. Two different things. I do research and I'm looking for anti-White racism in modern South Africa. This page is misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.57.129 (talk) 02:11, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I see Racism in South Africa redirects here. It is about state-sponsored racism in South Africa. The general racism article and Julius Malema#Racism controversies and hate speech convictions might help you. Helen (talk) 05:47, 7 May 2013 (UTC) See also Employment Equity#South Africa (which is not considered racism post-apartheid). Helen (talk) 05:56, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your help, however I was looking more for something like this [1], [2]. I've found South African farm attacks but it focuses only on the farm attacks while excluding anti-White racism in media, work employment, education and so on. For example, on 8 January 2012, after giving a speech at the ANC Centennial 2012 celebrations in Bloemfontein, South Africa, president Jacob Zuma sang the "shoot the Boer" song. If the president of South Africa sings songs about shooting anybody, and especially Boers (White South Africans) then there's a serious problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.57.129 (talk) 04:00, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

We have crime and we have Employment Equity, but these issues are not necessarily about racism even though some people might have that opinion. My personal view is that there is some anti-White racism in the political arena, but anti-White "racism" in general society is not a major issue. Other people may differ, and someone may even feel strongly enough to write a Wikipedia article about it one day. Helen (talk) 07:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Section and/or Article for Misconceptions?

There is a lot of info that holds that some of the official facts of the conditions of Apartheid are at least somewhat arguable. Is anyone looking into setting up a page or section that covers these claims? CarringtonEnglish T C 20:53, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

My personal impression, as a South African, is that several articles on South Africa need a lot of work to clean them up and improve neutrality. I am trying to do what I can but I am only one and we don't have an army of editors with capacity to do radical editing (versus monitoring articles for vandalism). HelenOnline 07:30, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Dating of student protests seems to be wrong

"One such protest was conducted on both University of Illinois campuses in the spring of 1977 influenced by a similar protest at Columbia University in 1985."

Something's not right here. The later event can't influence the earlier event. 79.97.91.65 (talk) 18:00, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I removed the confusing part which did not tally with the source cited either. HelenOnline 18:27, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move per request. A history swap will be done with existing page history at Apartheid--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:53, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

---

Apartheid in South Africa → Apartheid – The title is not inclusive enough, as Apartheid was also was in place in South-West Africa (Namibia), plus, when people think "Apartheid", are they really thinking about anything else. Charles Essie (talk) 04:18, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support With respect to Charles, I'm not sure I understand the nomination. However, the proposed title already redirects here, so WP:CONCISE applies, and you're certainly right that when people think "apartheid" that this is what they're thinking of (i.e., WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, although it's already established as such). Finally, WP:COMMONNAME applies as well. This system was called apartheid. The phrase "apartheid in South Africa" borders on redundant, and is generally only going to be used in comparison to similar systems elsewhere (e.g., Jim Crow laws) or to an audience that is just learning the term (e.g., schoolchildren). --BDD (talk) 06:24, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support per User:BDD, i.e., WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The current title is redundant and apartheid already redirects here anyway. Other uses such as the crime of Apartheid are analogies of or derive from the South African system. —  AjaxSmack  18:35, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support apartheid as a system of laws only happened in South African and Namibia. Bevo74 (talk) 20:11, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support - "apartheid" unqualified always refers to South Africa. The fact of the redirect further bolsters the argument. - htonl (talk) 19:03, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
• Support The soft disambiguation page doesn't really serve any benefit. The other uses of the term, such as the crime of apartheid, are sufficiently covered by the hatnote. Neljack (talk) 02:34, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
• Strong support but can we include a section about Namibia and slightly rescope this article? Red Slash 05:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
• Support and I agree with Red Slash's suggestion, Namibia and South Africa were basically the same country until 1990.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 13:14, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
• Support per htonl above. —Bruce1ee^talk 07:05, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Move to Apartheid, slightly rescoping and generalizing the article to a broad concept article, and spin out Apartheid in South Africa to cover specifically the the period of of official South African apartheid. Apartheid is a word, albeit foreign, and primarily associated with the South African practice, but it has a longer history, slightly more broad than South Africa, and significantly widened in modern usage. It is more than the system of laws only happened in South African and Namibia. "Apartheid" unqualified does not always refers to South Africa, although when it doesn't, a comparative allusion is always there. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:21, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 15 January 2014

The following sentence is 100% incorrect - it even says at the bottom [dead link]!

"Colonialism and apartheid had a major impact on women since they suffered both racial and gender discrimination. Oppression against black and coloured women was different from discrimination against men. They had very few or no legal rights, no access to education and no right to own property."

This person was never in South Africa during apartheid. Never. It is absolutely 100% untrue.

Here's an article on Wikipedia:

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Women_in_South_Africa

Check in the right hand column: Females over 25 with secondary education. Secondary education means high school.

68.9%

68.9% of South African women went to high school during apartheid. Apartheid was from 1948 to 1990. That's 20 years ago! Females over 25! that had high school: I repeat: 68.9% of South African women went to high school during apartheid. 68.9% of the women have high school.

South Africa had the highest literacy rate in Africa.

South Africa was not a Middle Eastern country where the women didn't have rights. They went to school. You've probably seen the 1992 movie Sarafina? Where Whoopi Goldberg, a black teacher and a black school girl dances around, singing songs? The black South African school girls went to school. 68.9% of the South African women, over 25, have high school.

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Sarafina!_(film)

"no right to own property" - untrue "no legal rights" - also untrue - Mandela even defended black women in court. Just watch the 2013 movie "A long walk to freedom".

Please remove that sentence because it is 100% untrue.

Thank you for help,

Best regards,

Wynand Meyering.

Wynandmeyering (talk) 14:45, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Partly done: I left the first sentence in. Women did not have equal rights to men, that much is true. HelenOnline 14:55, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I grew up in South Africa during apartheid, and remember e.g. married women not being able to open a store account without their husband's permission. This source covers some improvements in women's property rights in South Africa in the 1980s and 1990s. HelenOnline 15:16, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

As a general statement, this is also misleading. I also grew up in South Africa (and was married) during the apartheid era, but none of these restrictions applied, since we had an antenuptial contract. In fact, these restrictions did not apply to my mother either, for the same reason, and my parents were married in the 1950s. The restrictions on married women which you refer to applied only if they were married in community of property, and as your source indirectly points out, antenuptial nuptial contracts existed long before the 1980s. Going back further in South Africa's history, Hermann Giliomee points out in his history of the Afrikaner people that the community of property laws under the Dutch administration were more enlightened (in terms of protecting women's rights) than contemporary laws in British colonies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.147.147.73 (talk) 18:14, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

dompas

The dompas was so-called because it was introduced under Johannes Strijdom, not because it means "stupid pass" in Afrikaans.

197.87.92.48 (talk) 18:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

The Communists have written a lot of rubbish here

Now what must we do? We that know the truth? They quote from communist literature. What must we do that know that the truth is different? Must we now go and find literature that disproves them or WHAT!? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.48.223.241 (talk) 10:11, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you have to find a WP:Reliable source for anything you add to Wikipedia. If you know your subject, that should be easy to do. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 16:55, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Proposed change to second par

"colonial times under Dutch rule" change to "the former South African Republic" Reasoning:

• There are multiple acceptable citations for this, but after looking at the existing citation, it can/should remain and additional citations added.
• A very simple and completely adequate and undeniable citation would just be the actual racist constitution and laws of that former country.
• It is a Neutral Point of View WP:NPOV edit
• This was legislated racism in Southern Africa, with a pass system, for: "coloured people"
• All people of SA should be mature enough to deal with this at this time
• One could also expand on this and add that in the ZAR, all "coloured people" were forced to have a pass, after the discovery of gold, people of other races were forced to live in ghettos outside cities. Although, all I want to edit at this time, is only the replacement of the five words with five other words, as stated above.

Any comments/additions before I do this edit? Zarpboer (talk) 14:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I think my POV as per above is incorrect, I do want to bring in the legislated and forced racial segregation of the ZAR, as this is one of the places where this crime on humanity started/was promoted or made somehow "acceptable" also, it was not just racism, but racialism, any comments, help with where this caould go, if it all?

Zarpboer (talk) 14:43, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Having now researched, from neutral sources, I wish to develop and improve this extremely important page as it assists many people to understand Apartheid, what it was, where it came from, how it developed and how it became a heinous crime against humanity. Proposed new heading below, please edit and develop on this talk page, as Apartheid has many strong POV.

It is important for the many coming generations of Africans of all races to understand how terrible and how heinous this crime was.

Please edit the section below, so that we can build this in a WP:NPOV manner, with consensus and discuss your changes below, in the changes section (new heading) and please do not edit here to avoid confusion

Early History of Apartheid

Apartheid did not suddenly happen one day in 1948 when an Afrikaner Broederbonder awoke and decided that it was a good idea to oppress the Black race. Black people have been discriminated, dehumanized, oppressed and stolen to be sold as slaves in overseas foreign white countries for many hundreds of years in Africa and Southern Africa. From the first day that white Europeans arrived in Africa they viewed the Coloured races as dirty ungodly savages. Racial segregation, racialism and racism has a very rich and often violent history in South Africa. The technology that eventually resulted in the application of large scale separate racial development developed from the initial racism to the township or legislated ghetto Apartheid of the late 19th century. After the discovery of Gold in the South African Republic, all non European races were forced to stay in ghettos outside cities. Reasons used by the Dutch ZAR Government to justify this forced separation were often that blacks were dirty and that racial segregation was required for health and hygienic reasons. It is these ghettos that developed into townships which kept races apart in South Africa and that eventually gave birth to the full scale separate racial development legislation or Apartheid.

The european races, as well as other races, have been discriminating against each other for centuries. In Africa, black races were viewed as uncivilized animals and entire tribes were captured and sold as slaves. Internationally the practice of slavery began to cease after 1833, when Britain also outlawed slavery. In South Africa, slavery however did not cease. It was replaced with a system of indentured workers, which is still a form of slavery. From the first day that white Europeans arrived in Africa they viewed all the Coloured races, those of the San through to the Black tribes, as dirty ungodly savages. Racial segregation, racialism and racism has a very rich and often violent history in South Africa. The technology that eventually resulted in the application of large scale separate racial development developed from the initial racism to the township or legislated ghetto Apartheid of the late 19th century. After the discovery of Gold in the South African Republic, all non European races were forced to stay in ghettos outside cities. Reasons used by the Dutch ZAR government to justify this forced separation were often that blacks were dirty and that racial segregation was required for health and hygienic reasons. The stated public view of the British overlords of the time was of white race superiority and that the black man was inferior to the white race. With the vast majority of development in South Africa occurring around the extremely rich gold fields of the Witwaters Rand, this is also where the beating heart of the policy of Apartheid was further developed, influenced and formulated. Zarpboer (talk) 10:44, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

To understand the history of Apartheid and how it developed into a crime on humanity, the untenable essentialist and typological conceptualizational race point of view has to be understood. The social commentator, Martin Warburg said "Races are not equal. What is more, they never have been" and "People – and groups of people – are simply different or, if you prefer, unequal", he added: "As the technologically developed world and one less so clashed, inequality was exposed and races became shorthand for the cultural and cognitive asymmetries between peoples". It is also these perceived differences in races, their cultural development and technology that led to racial exploitation and justification in terms of slavery, colonialism as well as the heinous crime of Apartheid. However, the domination of one race over another in Southern Africa was not exclusive only to the European race. The stronger, bigger and more powerfully developed Black race displaced the San race. The superior weapons technology of the Zulus was used to dominate, displace and destroy during the Mfecane. Similarly, in Africa, you also found Europeans held as slaves to Black races and racism is not an invention of or limited to, any specific race. Stronger and more technologically advanced races, have been dominating one another from ancient times and racial subjugation is not a recent invention. It is this belief that races are so different, that races could not live together with their differences, and that races are and could never be equal, that led to legislation and laws that was based on race.

Apartheid in South Africa rested on the dehumanization of other racial groups by the European race and the incorrect but strongly held belief that the European race is superior to other races. From the first day that white Europeans arrived in Africa they viewed all the Coloured races, those of the San through to the Black tribes, as dirty ungodly savages. Racial segregation, racialism and racism has a very rich and often violent history in South Africa. Zarpboer (talk) 09:02, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

---

> You have to be joking! They decided to split the country into other countries.

Google May 20, 1959 Senate Speech Promoting Bantu Self Government - HF Verwoerd

"Is that different from what we have in Europe? Are there not in other parts of the world such as Europe, South America and Asia, various nations and states next to each other within the same continent or part of a continent? What would have happened to France, to Germany and to Britain if they had lost all their borders and their populations had become intermingled? And if those nations do not desire anything like that, and if it is not necessary there, and if it cannot happen there, why is it so terrible if in South Africa there are also various nations and territories and even neighbouring states? Do we find that the all-white nations and states in Europe try to or succeed in becoming one unit without borders? Have those nations become intermingled or has a multi-racial state been established in Europe? Or did we see throughout the centuries, even after the one state conquered the other, e.g. when Charlemagne established his empire, that the various nations again split up and re-established their national borders? Therefore, just as in other parts of the world, we must be able to accept that in Africa there can be various states on one continent or part of it."

"During the transition period we may still have to apply certain forms of discrimination, and during this period there may be White domination. But the basis of our policy is to try to get away from it. That is why we adopt the policy that the ..., wherever he may live in various areas of his own, must be given political control and domination or dominion over his own areas and people. Just as the Italians in France retain their vote in Italy, so the Bantu, who are living temporarily in our urban areas, must have a say in their homelands. They should be able to get it up to the highest level and we want to help them to attain that position. After all, there cannot be domination by Whites over Blacks where there are two neighbouring states."

---

> — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.7.103.5 (talk) 18:13, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Slavery

Slavery is a very old principle where people of all races are treated as property. In Africa it was more common for the more technologically advanced Europeans to enslave people from Africa but European races were also captured in Africa and sold as slaves. Historically, slavery was institutionally recognized by most societies. All races have been dominating and exploiting each other for centuries. Internationally the practice of slavery began to cease after 1833, when Britain passed the Slavery Abolition Act which outlawed the practice of slavery. In South Africa however slavery did not simply cease. The British replaced it with a system of indentured workers in 1835, which was still a form of slavery. Many Europeans, Blacks and other races were held under the indentured worker system in South Africa.

Colonial racialism and segregation

In Colonial times the Khoikhoi were segregated from the Europeans, staying in kraals and outside of European settlements, in their own settlements. In 1797 the Landdrost and Heemraden of Swellendam and Graaff-Reinet (the Dutch colonial governing authority) extended pass laws beyond slaves and ordained that all Khoikhoi (Hottentots) moving about the country for any purpose should carry passes. This was confirmed by the British Colonial government in 1809 by the Hottentot Proclamation, which decreed that if a Khoikhoi were to move they would need a pass from their master or a local official. Ordinance No. 49 of 1828 decreed that prospective black immigrants were to be granted passes for the sole purpose of seeking work.

Racialism and segregation during 19th century

The Franchise and Ballot Act of 1892 instituted limits based on financial means and education to the black franchise,[14] and the Natal Legislative Assembly Bill of 1894 deprived Indians of the right to vote. Racialism was also institutionalized in the ZAR country (1852-1902) and discrimination on the basis of race was prevalent. Even coloured British subjects were forced to reside in ghettos outside cities with Asian and black races, whilst white races were free to live anywhere. The ZAR Government was extremely racist and excuses often used for segregation was: "sanitation and regard to public health necessitated that measure of segregation". During the Second Boer War, the British exercised racial segregation and kept the white boer women and children in separate concentration camps to the black women and children. The number of dead black children and dead black women are unknown but are estimated to have exceeded that of the white women and children, there is scant information regarding the native camps as any information in regard to the native camps were "incidentally furnished" with information about the working of the white refugee camps. Even the total number of natives (black people) in all the camps were only estimates (80 000) and death rate estimates are on average of around 50 to 271 per thousand per month. In 1903, British Lord Alfred Milner argued eloquently, in a public speech, for white race superiority and stated convincingly that the black race was inferior to the white race.

Racialism in the early 20th Century

In 1905 the General Pass Regulations Act denied blacks the vote, limited them to fixed areas and inaugurated the infamous Pass System.[16] The Asiatic Registration Act (1906) required all Indians to register and carry passes.[17] In 1910 the Union of South Africa was created as a self-governing dominion, which continued the legislative programme: the South Africa Act (1910) enfranchised whites, giving them complete political control over all other racial groups while removing the right of blacks to sit in parliament,[18] the Native Land Act (1913) prevented blacks, except those in the Cape, from buying land outside "reserves",[18] the Natives in Urban Areas Bill (1918) was designed to force blacks into "locations",[19] the Urban Areas Act (1923) introduced residential segregation and provided cheap labour for industry led by white people, the Colour Bar Act (1926) prevented black mine workers from practising skilled trades, the Native Administration Act (1927) made the British Crown, rather than paramount chiefs, the supreme head over all African affairs,[20] the Native Land and Trust Act (1936) complemented the 1913 Native Land Act and, in the same year, the Representation of Natives Act removed previous black voters from the Cape voters' roll and allowed them to elect three whites to Parliament.[21] One of the first pieces of segregating legislation enacted by Jan Smuts' United Party government was the Asiatic Land Tenure Bill (1946), which banned land sales to Indians.

Please edit the above and discuss your edit in the section below Zarpboer (talk) 00:45, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Changes to Apartheid: Discussion

• I currently have multiple acceptable academic and historic citations to add to the above, which ones to use, we can discuss as we go?

References sofar proposed to be used: THEAL, Early history of South Africa, JUTA Legal Library, Eybers, Select Constitutional Documents, THEAL, History of SA Vol4, various Media24 publications, Aversive Racism, Dovidio and also maybe Prejudice, discrimination, and racism: Historical trends and contemporary approaches Zarpboer (talk) 06:46, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• It is quite obvious that "How Apartheid developed" needs to be explained in order to understand it more completely as from reading the present article, I did not. In fact he present article needs general improvement as it is v shaped in terms of bias,perceived bias or perceived POV.
• Proposed future development of sub sections on how the dehumanization of black people grew the feelings of white superiority and white race supremacy. Addition of early racism, early racialism, early racial separation, development and violent enforcement of racial laws, legislation and institutionalized racism, the father and the mother of Apartheid, and how they gave birth to Apartheid. All this we can discuss once we can achieve consensus on the History and Development section? or now?

Regarding my POV: I do consider myself neutral as I do not have any strong feelings for pro Afrikaner, pro Boer, pro Colonialist, pro Black, general pro White, etc. That said, I am a normal human person, so I do have bias and of course the same as you, I cannot objectively see my own bias. My intentions with editing here is simply to produce a high quality, accurate, historically and academically factual encyclopedic quality entry. Not to promote any specific point of view. Please Help Me. If nobody responds, I will presume general acquiescence and proceed with this edit. Zarpboer (talk) 00:38, 13 September 2014 (UTC) Just to be clear: I intend to replace the above with this present section: "Precursors of apartheid" - Presently this section is extremely well written vs my still poorly written first version draft. To add, the present section is mostly about eloquently pushing British POV and has to be removed/replaced entirely. Anyway, the section also skips the ZAR. The Boers were also part of developing Apartheid, mainly this needs to be added to understand how the idea of townships started. In the present article the idea and actual townships started in the 1950's with the infamous group areas act. - This is not the whole history and seems biased, is misleading and more importantly, it is not complete. It also does not explain in a short summarized, easily read and commonly understandable way, that Apartheid (which this page is about) developed over hundreds of years, with many contributors. Instead it is an apologetic explanation of the "precursors to Apartheid", without anyone actually fully accepting credit for their contributions to the development of practical Apartheid. So for clarity, this proposal is for the replacement of "Precursors of apartheid" with a new History and Development (to be developed with some of that content...) and to be written in a more direct and easily understandable (common) fashion, so it is more suited to a general encyclopedic audience and not an academic doctorate degree submission... Zarpboer (talk) 01:28, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

1st Paragraph

"Under the 1806 Cape Articles of Capitulation the new British colonial rulers were required to respect previous legislation enacted under Roman Dutch law[13] and this led to a separation of the law in South Africa from English Common Law and a high degree of legislative autonomy. The governors and assemblies that governed the legal process in the various colonies of South Africa were launched on a different and independent legislative path from the rest of the British Empire."

This to be removed entirely. It only serves to explain the British ordinances of 1828, whereas the British could extremely easily have deemed new black immigrants as excluded.. This can easily be seen when looking at the events of 1835... Either way, the differences between English Common Law and Roman Dutch law does not equate to contributing to the development (or even as a precursor) to Apartheid or the Apartheid State but as an apologetic explanation of the British promotion of racism and racist policies.

2nd paragraph

In the days of slavery, slaves required passes... - Slavery deserves at least a paragraph as it adds to the European views of the time, as well as to the dehumanization of other races, the enforcement of the idea that black people are somehow of lesser value or importance to white Europeans and did contribute to the development (and as an actual pre cursor) to the racist policies of racial separation and separate development. Propose to add Slavery as a sub heading, and with a paragraph explaining what is was, how it worked and how it contributed to the philosophy of Apartheid. Apartheid is not only a reference to the Apartheid state, but it also was(is?) an idea. -- The rest of the content of the paragraph, to be added to the section above.

3rd paragraph

To be removed. The fact that the British promulgated slavery abolition act or stopped being slavers at a point in time is not relevant to the development or history (or even as a precursor) to Apartheid, and only serves here as an apology or explanation of British POV. Either way, they simply replaced the word slave with the word indentured. To be replaced with a single sentence, saying that "In 1835 the British replaced slavery with a similar system of indentured workers, this to comply with the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833." this to be added to the slavery sub section, to where it is best suited as it will deal with slavery and how it contributed to Apartheid.

4th paragraph

The first sentence to be used as is, but placed chronologically after a similar sentence about the ZAR, to tie in with the pass laws of the ZAR, the forced racial segregation, withholding of franchise to other races, etc. Similarly, the 1905 events demand multiple sentences as well as an explanation of the racial segregation policies as they relate to the Group Areas Act of 1950, The actual Group Areas Act uses much of he same terms, structure and language as the 1905 version. This has to be expanded upon and citations/references added, so that readers can also look and read the actual historic documents and that they are also easily available to the same reader/user. This is also of significant interest mainly to show how the system of Apartheid developed and grew as well as understanding the massive scale of oppression that black people has been subjected to, over centuries of European subjugation as this does demonstrate how the crime of Apartheid grew to become supported and accepted by millions of people of one race, that believed that they were superior to millions of people of another race. The rest of the paragraph to be used, "as is" except to expand the 1913 land act, in it's current version it does not really explain why it contributed (even as a pre cursor) to Apartheid, it needs to be expanded to include the importance of land in the majority of black African cultures and how this Act was designed not to take land from other races, and not only to prevent other races from owning land or property deemed to be in white race areas, but to significantly break down the self worth and future value and prospects of any other race than the white racial grouping more specifically so when viewing this prohibition from the cultural perspective of the discriminated racial grouping. This perspective factor itself is frequently overlooked by European authors. the rest of the para after the land act, to be added as is.

European subjugation

"over centuries of European subjugation"

The white population lived in the Cape Province - 100% of the black population of South Africa was NOT enslaved. The slaves that were there was imported from Asia.

http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/History_of_the_Cape_Colony_from_1806_to_1870

"These slaves were mostly people brought in from other parts of Africa and Malays."

And slavery was abolished in 1832 in South Africa.

While at the time, the ENTIRE white controlled area of South Africa - the Cape Province had a population of 27,000 white people.

http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/History_of_the_Cape_Colony_from_1806_to_1870

so the black kingdoms were INDEPENDENT at the time with huge huge armies. There were no mass enslavement of black South Africans by white South Africans. The Black population was 10x higher than the population!

The whites had not even moved into the interior of South Africa - they were a mere 27,000!

( IF you remove this talk as you removed my other talks and I am making an OFFICIAL COMPLAINT against you at the wikipedia HQ )

Subjugation is not slavery, and is a fair description of what happened. Greenman (talk) 10:15, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

---> OK Greenman they were subjugated, but why were they subjugated? They were professional, dedicated soldiers all their lives. Are you telling me the Zulu, the Xhosa were businessmen and traders?

Wikipedia Shaka

No we read that they didn't accept trade or currency or paper for any land. The diplomatic exchanges often ended violently for those who tried it. So they were opposed to foreigners in their territories. They weren't too open to trade and exchange with foreign nations, which was something new. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.7.103.5 (talk) 17:45, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

5th paragraph

this is an important paragraph and should be added mostly as is, except for this " Amid fears integration would eventually lead to racial assimilation" should be :"Amid fears that racial integration would eventually lead to assimilation" and "The commission concluded that integration would bring about a "loss of personality" for all" to :"The commission concluded that racial integration would bring about a "loss of personality" for all" Zarpboer (talk) 03:02, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Why was there Apartheid? By an Afrikaner himself

Two main reasons:

1. Ian Smith, of Rhodesia, said: "We wanted to maintain all our standards!". South Africa had high standards. 1st world standards. The largest economy in Africa. It had the 8th largest stock exchange in the world 1983. A Rand that was worth more than the US dollar in 1973 - it is currently trading at R11 for $1. The JSE is the world's 19th largest stock exchage. Unemployment is 25%. The country was one of the top 10 in terms of patents registered. Amnesty international said 30 people died in police custody during apartheid every year - it's 900 people a year that are dying in 2013! Crime is the 1st or 2nd highest in the world. The educational system is one of the poorest rated in the world etc. etc. We saw what would happen. We wanted to avoid it.

2. The Soviet Union had tried to overthrow South Africa decade after decade, the South Africa Communist Party is the 2nd oldest political party in the world. We didn't want to give up all our farm land, our banks, our mines because the ANC demanded it! Because of black nationalism. Nationalisation. The Soviet Union demanded it.

To say that we wanted to rule over the masses of poor people of Africa - no we tried to create independent internationally recognized countries - why did we create embassies? Why did we increase the literacy rate from 10% in 1955 to 93% in 1990? Egypt that was had a recorded history of 10,000 years, yet today it has a literacy rate of 75% in 2013. We didn't want to rule over people by force!

Things were far more complex. There's 100 factors that can be mentioned. One such a factor was that the ANC had an alliance with the USSR since 1927.

Google ANC president JT Gumede visiting Moscow in 1927 telling Joseph Stalin he "Has seen the promised land".

Don't give us nonsense on Wikipedia. Telling us POV = Point of View. So who's POV do you now only accept? The POV of the USSR? of Communists alone? Is that only the POV Wikipedia accepts now? Only the ANC's view and USSR's view is now accepted on Wikipedia on Apartheid - the creation by Afrikaners. POV now = the USSR's view. The Afrikaners have no right to even describe Apartheid. Their POV is unimportant.

It's absolute Politically Correct nonsense! Absolute POV nonsense! This is history! Yet we get POV and PC! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.228.192.153 (talk) 07:23, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia Primary School announcement

Hi everybody. On behalf of the teams behind the Wikipedia Primary School research project, I would like to announce that this article was selected a while ago to be reviewed by an external expert. We'd now like to ask interested editors to join our efforts and improve the article before March 15, 2015 (any timezone) as they see fit; a revision will be then sent to the designated expert for review. Any notes and remarks written by the external expert will be made available on this page under a CC-BY-SA license as soon as possible, so that you can read them, discuss them and then decide if and how to use them. Please sign up here to let us know you're collaborating. Thanks a lot for your support! --Elitre (WPS) (talk) 15:50, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Review within the Wikipedia Primary School project

Hi all. As anticipated, some weeks ago Dr. Steven Friedman (Centre for the Study of Democracy, Rhodes University and University of Johannesburg) agreed to review this article within the scope of the project linked above. You can find his notes in the PDF I just uploaded to Commons. We'd like to thank Dr. Friedman for his work and for his helpful notes. We invite everybody to feel free to reuse the review to improve the article and/or to comment it here. Best, --Elitre (WPS) (talk) 10:10, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: Dr. Friedman makes some very good points, the most important of which is the article's present state of disorganization. Is it an article about the history of apartheid or the philosophy of apartheid, or just a blanket coverage of whatever the old government associated with apartheid was up to between 1948 and 1994? I think the first step to implementing the recommended changes in the article should be to make a clear distinction between the three. Focus on the philosophy itself (as that is the title of the article), expound on its implementation and development in a concise, well-defined, history section, and push associated events/philosophies like Total Strategy and the attacks on the Frontline States to the end, and then only as footnotes. --Katangais (talk) 15:50, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Unsigned comment

Everyone wants to credit now!

Schooling in Nigeria

The section called Western influence states: "Many South Africans attended schools in Nigeria,[citation needed] and Nelson Mandela several times acknowledged the role of Nigeria in the struggle against apartheid.[citation needed]"

Those sentences are unclear and untrue - the overwhelming majority of black South Africans ( 97%+ ) attended schools in South Africa, NOT Nigeria. The banned political parties of the African National Congress, the South African Communist Party and their political members which numbered tens of thousands at most, their children often went to schools outside of South Africa, in Nigeria, Zambia, the United States, the UK, the USSR and other countries. The South African school children numbered in the millions. The South African teachers ( SADTU ) is one of the largest unions in the world! So it's nonense to create the impression that: "Many South Africans attended schools in Nigeria,[citation needed]"

Did Many South Africans attended schools in Nigeria? NO IT'S A LIE.

If you want to include it or if you want to correct it, it should read:

"Many children of parents of banned political parties such as the African Nation Congress, attended schools in Nigeria,[citation needed] and Nelson Mandela several times acknowledged the role of Nigeria in the struggle against apartheid.[citation needed]"

I don't know where anyone is going to get those statistics of how many children attended schools in Nigeria? So include it you want to, but you know that is how politicians are across the world ... if something happens *their* children, they *imagine* it happens to everyone. The 3% are suddenly representitive of the 97%+.

It all comes down to a definition of "many", but yes, I agree it's too strong. Perhaps "some". The second sentence that claim is a "lie" is about Nelson Mandela acknowledging the role of Nigeria. It does need a citation, but is accurate to my knowledge. Greenman (talk) 10:14, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

"With our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country" Ms W Mandela

There is nothing here in detail about the ANC atrocities, the murders, live burnings, kidnappings and torture. Especially nothing about the Mandelas' part in the Armed wing of the ANC nor the Mandela United Football Club. e.g. http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/20/world/mandela-s-group-abused-dissidents.html Balance needs to occur and excuses need to be withdrawn. Murder is murder no matter the color of one's skin — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.129.144 (talk) 14:27, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Information about Umkhonto we Sizwe attacks and/or militant activity on behalf of the ANC belongs in the separate article Internal resistance to apartheid. Ideally this article should only concern the philosophy and implementation thereof. --Katangais (talk) 17:06, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Forgive me but I disagree. The article has sections on the ANC including the line "The ANC then chose to launch an armed struggle through a newly formed military wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK), which would perform acts of sabotage on tactical state structure". The problem is that the article appears not to recognise and even dismiss the atrocities, almost excuse them but as they were perpetrated under Apartheid in direct conflict against it, then it seems reasonable to include such horror to illustrate the overall concept. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.129.144 (talk) 21:40, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Proposed merge with South African oil embargo

Too specific Eat me, I'm a red bean (take a huge bite)^{i've made a huge mess} 04:40, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Possibly merge into an article on Sanctions against South Africa, but Apartheid is both too broad and also cause rather than effect. Andy Dingley (talk) 06:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - alternate merge At the moment the article is one sentence, and can easily be merged. In principle the article can be expanded, and could warrant a separate article, but until then, there's no reason for it to be separate. I agree with the comment above that there is a better place to merge it though. There is no Sanctions against South Africa article, but there is a Foreign_relations_of_South_Africa_during_apartheid#Sanctions, which would be a natural fit. Greenman (talk) 08:43, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I will create the article. Eat me, I'm a red bean (take a huge bite)^{i've made a huge mess} 12:46, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

It's been two weeks with no furtherdiscussion. I have redirected South African oil embargo to Disinvestment from South Africa and removed the merge tags. Zaian (talk) 20:28, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

University of Illinois campuses

How is this of any more significance to the countless other protests in similar institutions globally? Unless the person who inserted this (or someone else) can give some clarification or justification for it being included (it looks very out of place right now) I propose it be removed. Tigerman2005 (talk) 03:12, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Go for it - it needs to be removed. Zaian (talk) 08:13, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Done.Tigerman2005 (talk) 05:08, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Japan

The whole section Others and Japan is irrelevant in this article. It needs to be moved to another article about politics in Japan, or systems of racial segregation around the world, etc, but this article is already too long to include this sort of information. Zaian (talk) 13:39, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I have removed it per WP:BOLD. For reference, here is the text if someone wants to find a home for it:

In the wake of the Charlie Hebdo shooting which was caused by decendants of Muslim immigrants to France, many pundits have discussed how to tackle immigration issues to keep immigrants from comitting a crime. Ayako Sono, an education advisor to the Abe cabinet, claimed that immigrants in Japan should be separated by race and they should live separately from the Japanese.

She argued that an immigration policy could work only if the country segragated races, adding that it was almost impossible to attain an understanding of foreign people by living alongside them. She maintained that in South Africa black Africans ruined the areas reserved for whites, and that black people would do the same things in Japan if they were allowed to live where they chose.

Chief cabinet secretary Yoshihide Suga sidestepped a question about whether or not Sono's insistence that immigrants to Japan should be separated by race reflected Abe's views, saying only that immigration policies would be fair and based on the (domestic) laws. Sono came under fire from South Africa as she suggested a new apartheid; its ambassador to Japan stated that Sono's proposal was shameful, extravagent, tolerated and glorified apartheid.

Zaian (talk) 08:17, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

References

Non-citizens (Latvia)

What is the connection between the apatheid and Non-citizens (Latvia)? The Russians decide they don't like to learn Latvian language. The majority of them arrived when Latvia was occupied by the SU. Xx236 (talk) 06:35, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

This Wikipedia page is improving

It is better than it was years ago, everyone seems to be reaching a better consensus about events, a move balanced POV ( point of view ), but I have to note that probably 100 facts are missing that can cast a far better light on events, international relations and decisions at the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.220.171.169 (talk) 14:51, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Mandela's mentor

The lede states...

"De Klerk began the process of dismantling apartheid with the release of Mandela's mentor..."

...but doesn't mention who Mandela's mentor was. I did a search through the entire for the word "mentor" but the only hit was in the lede. Can someone more familiar with the topic update this sentence so it says something like...

"De Klerk began the process of dismantling apartheid with the release of John Doe, Mandela's mentor..." where John Doe is the mentor's name.

A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:32, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Petty apartheid

The petty apartheid section is quite poor. The Immorality Act forbade sexual relations across any of the defined races, not just between whites and other races. "Acts passed under petty apartheid were meant to separate nonwhites from being apart of daily life" is poor English. From there it goes on to only mention whites and blacks, with no indication how other races were affected. Greenman (talk) 09:09, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

The Immorality Act forbade sexual relationships between whites and nonwhites, or Coloureds and Asians. It did not forbid relationships between Coloureds and blacks, however. --Katangais (talk) 11:21, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

See my comment at Talk:Immorality Act#Sexual relations between races about that point. I agree about the poor English complaint. - htonl (talk) 13:21, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

If it's the case that the Immorality Act did not prohibit sex between non-white people of different races, then the statement "which was followed closely by the Immorality Act of 1950, making it illegal for South African citizens to marry or pursue sexual relationships across racial lines" in this article is incorrect. The Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act, 1949 did, according to the article, prohibit "marriages between people of different races", but marriage != sex :) Greenman (talk) 06:03, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Further points on this section:

"The first of these was the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act 55 of 1949, prohibiting marriage between whites and people of other races." incorrect according to the article, it prohibited marriages across all racial classifications.

This article was incorrect - it has now been corrected. Greenman (talk) 08:41, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

"Acts passed under petty apartheid were meant to separate nonwhites from being apart of daily life." Besides the bad grammar, the whole sentence seems meaningless and could be removed.

Removed.Greenman (talk) 08:41, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

"Laws of these types forcibly removed nonwhite South Africans from their communities and solidified segregation." It's not clear what's being referred to. If both types, then it doesn't really add anything to the section.

Removed.Greenman (talk) 08:41, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

"Blacks were not allowed to run businesses or professional practices in areas designated as "white South Africa" unless they had a permit." Other races?

"Black buses stopped at black bus stops and white buses at white ones." There was also segregation inside the bus, so while "black buses" etc. existed, this doesn't adequately reflect the situation, and it ignores other races.

Removed.Greenman (talk) 08:41, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

"Because of the smaller numbers of white patients and the fact that white doctors preferred to work in white hospitals, conditions in white hospitals were much better than those in often overcrowded and understaffed black hospitals." Other races?

"Blacks were not allowed to employ whites in white South Africa." Other races?

"Blacks were not allowed to buy hard liquor.""" Needs citation, and clarification of whether this applied in the bantustans, and to other races.

"Cinemas and theatres in white areas were not allowed to admit blacks" Other races?

"Blacks earning 360 rand a year or more had to pay taxes while the white threshold was more than twice as high, at 750 rand a year. On the other hand, the taxation rate for whites was considerably higher than that for blacks." Other races?

Greenman (talk) 06:29, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Rome statute, Crime of apartheid

Why is there no mention of the Rome statute or Crime of apartheid? Some ethnic nationalists don't like these, but we are supposed to be neutral. Keith McClary (talk) 17:00, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

This isn't the right article for that sort of coverage. All the relevant information on the crime of apartheid, as opposed to the actual South African legislative system, belongs on the aforementioned article (Crime of apartheid).

That's why it was created in the first place, if my memory serves me correctly. Consensus held that most of the editors wanted to avoid cluttering this already cluttered article by redirecting all information concerning the crime of apartheid, and all other non-South African evocations of the apartheid analogy - see Israel and the apartheid analogy, for example - to other pages. --Katangais (talk) 19:46, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Did Apartheid end in 1991 or 1994?

How come some parts of the article say 1 year and some say another? Which is it?Reversalmushroom (talk) 03:38, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Apartheid legislation in South Africa was abolished in 1991. The first multiracial elections took place in 1994. —Bruce1ee^talk 13:57, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

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Repeated unexplained addition to first sentence of the lead

Howzit all,

A phrase has been repeatedly added to the lead of this article which states, "Apartheid...was based on white supremacy and usage of the majority of the population for one group (White people)". I have repeatedly reverted the addition of this statement because - unlike the other facts in the lead - this one is unreferenced. While not all lead sections in all articles are fully referenced, it's deliberately misleading to shoehorn this phrase into the lead's first sentence with an accompanying footnote that fails to back it up.

Beyond My Ken seems to think that I am disputing the facts in the phrase. I should clarify that I am not. But it needlessly prolongs the lead sentence, utilises awkward phrasing, uses vague and unclear language, misleadingly appropriates an existing footnote, and is redundant to the sentence it was tacked on to.

The full lead sentence currently reads: Apartheid (South African English pronunciation: /əˈpɑːrteɪd/; Afrikaans: [aˈpartɦəit], lit. "separateness") was a system of institutionalised racial segregation and discrimination in South Africa between 1948 and 1991 based on white supremacy and usage of the majority of the population for the benefit of one group (i.e White people).

As you can see, we have already established that apartheid was a system of racial discrimination and segregation according to race. Describing it as a form of white supremacy is therefore just as redundant as tacking on the phrase, "based on racism" or "based on racist/Afrikaner supremacist/white supremacist ideals". Furthermore, the second part of the phrase states that apartheid was based on the "usage" of the majority of the population for the benefit of one group. What usage? Let us consider how does one use other people. Sexually? By profiting from their labour? By using them as surrogates? By manipulating them? Psychologically or physically? Socially? Economically? That is extremely vague, unencyclopedic language which is easily open to misinterpretation. It also adds no new information as we have already seen apartheid described as a form of racism, and specifically, racial discrimination (which I assume is the "usage of the majority" for the benefit of one group that the original contributor was attempting to convey).

I also take issue with the notion that apartheid was based on the "usage of the majority" as vastly oversimplifying the philosophical foundation of apartheid (which was theoretically based on geographic separation of the races) by presenting it as general exploitation - again, what sort of exploitation is never made clear to the reader - per se of the large nonwhite majority. Economic exploitation of cheap black labour emerged as a byproduct of apartheid, but was not an integral part of the theoretical apartheid philosophy and does not deserve the weight afforded it in the lead... if indeed that is the "usage" being specified.

One final nitpick I have is the repeated capitalisation of races such as "White people" and "Black people", which is a violation of precedent elsewhere in the article and also decidedly unencyclopedic - not to mention needlessly pointy - as well.

Thanks, --Katangais (talk) 03:45, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

So... after saying that you don't dispute the facts in the phrase, you actually do "take issue" with one of the facts in the phrase. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:53, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

It's poorly written and definitely needs to be improved before it can be included in the opening sentence. Zaian (talk) 10:59, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

"Poor writing" is not a valid reason for deletion, it's a reason to re-write - so feel free to do so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:07, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

No, feel free to rewrite it yourself and try again. Poor writing is very much a reason to revert. Zaian (talk) 17:29, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Please review WP:BRD. Until a consensus is reached, the article stays in the status quo ante, and you should not be usurping the discussion with you own opinion about the outcome.

As far as "bad writing" is concerned, it's certainly not ideal, but it's a matter for rewriting not for deletion. Since you're one of the parties objecting to the writing, the onus is on you to make changes which will comport with your idea of better writing - and they should be presented here for evaluation by the discussing editors. There is no immunity from the proscription against edit-warring for "bad writing" as there is for BLP violations, so please cease to remove the material without a consensus to do so. Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:41, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for engaging, but I strongly dispute your intepretation of policy. *You* repeatedly applied the same edit without attempting to improve it even after specific comments were made to you about its faults. Please do not imply that I am the one at fault here. Zaian (talk) 07:15, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Read my entire post. I don't see how I can dispute the facts in the phrase if I'm not certain how to interpret them. --Katangais (talk) 16:03, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

You're clear enough of the facts to dispute them above, so which is it? Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:07, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm making shots in the dark - for example, I had to guess that "usage" meant "economic exploitation", because the phrasing is so unclear. My point was (and indeed remains) that this isn't so much a factual discussion as a discussion over the sly abuse of footnotes, unencyclopedic language and formatting, and a redundant, needlessly prolonged lead sentence. --Katangais (talk) 16:11, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

• Ok, how about this for a suggested alteration:

"[Apartheid] was a system of institutionalised racial segregation and discrimination that existed in South Africa between 1948 and 1991. It was based on white supremacy and the exploitation of the majority of the population, black and mixed-race ("colored") Africans, for the benefit of the politically dominant group, white Akrikaaners."

Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:46, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

That's actually much clearer and more palatable. However, white supremacy as state policy already existed in South Africa for decades prior to apartheid's implementation in 1948 (and indeed, even prior to the word's very creation in 1929), as did the economic exploitation of nonwhites. That much is clarified in the sentence later on the lead which states: "Prior to the 1940s, some aspects of apartheid had already emerged in the form of minority rule by white South Africans..." Furthermore, as outlined in my initial comments economic exploitation of nonwhites was not a part of the apartheid philosophy, which was concerned with segregation and separation of the races rather than economic exploitation per se. That was more of a preexisting practical reality further perpetuated by apartheid as opposed to the basis of the actual philosophy (as the revised sentence implies). --Katangais (talk) 03:16, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough. How about:

"[Apartheid] was a system of institutionalised racial segregation and discrimination that existed in South Africa between 1948 and 1991. It was based on white supremacy and the repression of the majority of the population, black and mixed-race ("colored") Africans, for the benefit of the politically dominant group, white Akrikaaners."

Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:01, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

That looks OK. Capitalise "Coloured" (in southern and central Africa that's evolved into an ethnonym rather than a racial demonym like the American "colored") and use Commonwealth spelling for South African English. Also, change Afrikaaner to Afrikaner per WP:COMMONNAME and I won't have an issue with putting the revised phrase in the lead. --Katangais (talk) 06:14, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

 Done Thank you. Feel free to correct any spelling or other minor errors. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:27, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

This is an improvement, thank you. I think including "Afrikaners" in the sentence is potentially controversial, as apartheid benefited all whites, not just Afrikaners. Perhaps adding "and whites in general" or "and other whites" would help. Zaian (talk) 07:22, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

How about "Afrikaners and other whites"? Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:30, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

That works better, I think. I would also leave out "and mixed race (Coloured)", otherwise the sentence lists three of the four apartheid-era race categories but omits Indian. Saying "black" alone implies the broader sense of all races except white. Zaian (talk) 22:13, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

I should also have pointed out that "mixed race (Coloured)" is a simplification and controversial. I see it's already been disputed. Zaian (talk) 07:12, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm good with your last edit, which is appropriate for the lede. Details can be dealt with in the article proper. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:17, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi all just wanted to point out that for international readers after mentioning the “black majority” I showed that by an uncapitalized “b-“ black implies all groups aside from white. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DumaTorpedo (talk • contribs) 13:40, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

South Africa between 1961 and 1991/1994 as an independent article?

Hi. I know that Apartheid is not a country, but I couldn't find any page about the COUNTRY South Africa during the Apartheid era. Therefore, I made a country box about South Africa between 1961 and 1991. Therefore, I wish that someone makes a new article named "Apartheid South Africa/History of South Africa between 1961 and 1991". I sadly can't make it on my own, as I nearly got no time for Wikipedia. I add the country box here, so that someone can use it if they want to create that kind of a article. I've seen Nazi Germany as a independent article, and I therefore mean that Apartheid South Africa can get one too. DOWNLOAD LINK - South Africa between 1961 and 1991

//PP

That would be detaching Apartheid from contemporary South Africa DumaTorpedo (talk) 14:37, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Conservatism section

The current article discusses the supposed "conservatism" of South Africa under Apartheid. Examples are provided (and properly sourced), such as ban on pornography and gambling, opposition to homosexuality and restrictions on the businesses' opening hours. While some of these measures might seem "conservative" nowadays, one should remember that homosexuality and pornography were banned/persecuted in many Western "liberal" countries as well until the 1970s or 1980s, or even further. For example, Norway legalized pornography only in 2005. Gambling is still heavily regulated in many European countries, and altogether banned in most of the United States. Likewise, in many European countries (Austria, Finland, Germany, United Kingdom, to name a few) it was unthinkable that any shops or businesses could operate on Sundays and Sunday shopping was only introduced beginning in the 1990s in limited capacity. So, few of these examples are actually signs of any overt "conservatism" in South Africa, rather, they were common practices in most of the Western countries, regardless of whether these countries were ran by Progressive or Conservative parties.

While I do believe that one could describe SA under Apartheid as "socially conservative", better examples should be provided as these simply do not indicate any clear conservative tendencies that might have existed. JJohannes (talk) 00:42, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Copy editing

An editor made a fairly large number of changes to the article which I reverted because, after close examination of them, they removed sourced material, introduced POV, and did not improve the grammar or style of the article. The editor reverted – with an edit summary saying that I had to provide a justification here for the removal (which of course is not what WP:BRD says) – and he was re-reverted by another editor. The original editor then re-inserted his changes. I reverted, and left a note on his talk page reminding him of what BRD says.

I am starting this section so that the editor can explain why his changes to the article were improvements and should be retained. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:36, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2018

Add the following to the article overview section after "Apartheid legislation was abolished in mid-1991,[1] pending multiracial elections set for April 1994.[19]"

Since early 2013, the left wing political party the Economic Freedom Fighters (EFF) has been rising in popularity with a policy of racially based land expropriation of the Afrikaner population.[20] The EFF states that the policy of land expropriation along racially discriminatory grounds is not about revenge but about dignity, the party believes that South African land belongs to the countries indigenous population and that a campaign of land redistribution will rectify a historical injustice.[21] In early 2018 the ruling African National Congress (ANC) joined the EFF in passing legislation designed to commit to an official policy of land redistribution.[22] The racial hatred being generated by the political rhetoric of the land redistribution issue has created a humanitarian crisis in the country as largely impoverished indigenous African gangs have committed increasingly terrifying attacks on white owned farms. The brutality of the attacks which have included torture, rape and murder have led to calls from other "civilized countries" to open special humanitarian streams to deal with the crisis.[23]

The reason for these changes is that a new form of apartheid is emerging and becoming quite overt in its nature. If you change the race of the proposed new legislation there is zero doubt this would be considered a new form of apartheid, any attempt to justify this is hypocrisy. These changes need to be made to encourage the South African government to act more civil towards all its citizens.

20 Town, Agence France-Presse in Cape (2016-02-11). "South Africa's EFF opposition walks out of Zuma's state address". the Guardian. Retrieved 2018-03-28.
21 AFP. "South African MPs vote for land expropriation". The Citizen. Retrieved 2018-03-28.
22 AFP. "South African MPs vote for land expropriation". The Citizen. Retrieved 2018-03-28.
23 "South Africa's white farmers TWICE as likely to be killed than police". Mail Online. Retrieved 2018-03-28.

Martin.j.fox (talk) 08:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC) @Martin.j.fox: Source 23 needs changing, per WP:DAILYMAIL1. Also, if you use proper article referencing on this page, you don't need to match the numbering. Just use a {{reflist-talk}}, like the one below. This will help in establishing the reliability of sources. Finally, I'm not sure that this paragraph is in scope, although it might well be. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 10:13, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

References

The claims made in the paragraph in question are obscene and ridiculous. “Adding a new race” to the legislature is to ensure equal opportunity for those oppressed and land expropriation is only fair considering the extreme poverty most black South Africans face. This conspiracy theory is exactly that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DumaTorpedo (talk • contribs) 14:00, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

@DumaTorpedo: sounds like so-called "positive discrimination" to me. I don't know, I've never been to SA. However, from a UK perspective (including attending a ~40% privately educated, ethnic minority underrepresented, geographically uneven university), I strongly believe that such measures are a well-meaning evil. Here there are huge issues in society at large, which of course do originate in history. However, I don't believe that my university has an issue with racism or other biases. A "positive" discrimination policy towards black students would be papering over the issue. Many would drop out, due to the level of the work. Any degree obtained might be discriminated against due to the "positive" discrimination policy. Instead, the cause of underrepresentation needs to be tackled - e.g. encouraging applications, improving education in disadvantaged areas. Get even education and society might balance out organically. Land expropriation is likely to fuel inter-racial tensions, and very likely prove counterproductive. Certainly, such "positive" discrimination is still discrimination, and likely notable. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 17:58, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

It is a form of according to our constitution “fair” discrimination. One is only conspired if all the entry requirements are fufiled and than only is ones race a factor. The is not anything like Apartheid as it has been accepted by the world ( even implemente in America) and works to level it the still massive h (in terms of average monthly income, aproximitly R200 000 difference from a white person to a black person) economic-racial gap — Preceding unsigned comment added by DumaTorpedo (talk • contribs) 02:43, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. However, it is still advised you come to a consensus with the other edittors here first. — IVORK _Discuss 00:21, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Coloured: To capitalise or not?

Right now, the article capitalises and non-capitalises "Coloured"/"coloured" with irritating inconsistency. Should Coloureds be capitalised in this article or not? Personally, I feel "Coloureds" ought to be capitalised because in a global context it refers to a specific Southern African ethnic group. Whereas "coloureds" might be misconstrued as a general reference to all South Africans not classified as white during apartheid, and leaving the names of ethnic groups uncapitalised may be regarded as pejorative in certain cases (for example, "boer" and "Boer"). Furthermore, a precedent for this already seems to exist on Wikipedia in the form of the Cape Coloured article.

If indeed the capitalisation of Coloured or Coloureds is contentious, I'd like to hear more about it here. Let's agree on one standard and apply it universally in the article. --Katangais (talk) 21:31, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Coloured should be capitalized as it does make reference to a specific ethic group. Again the issue of international convention ( uncapitalized black VS capitalized) VS local South African connotations as, correct me if I am wrong, in the USA “colored” is considered a derogatory term for all black Americans. Wikipedia should use South African English ( along with its connotations) for South African articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DumaTorpedo (talk • contribs)

Capitalized as in this context, Coloured refers to the race group not the typical English term coloured. Waddie96 (talk) 17:48, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Pass laws, mixed marriages, and Bantu Education as Petty Apartheid?

It is surprising to see that these laws are classified as Petty Apartheid. One would expect Petty apartheid to include things like separate amenities and other "minor" segregation. This article would tend to back my viewpoint up. [3] Park3r (talk) 10:34, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, these laws where hardly “petty” — Preceding unsigned comment added by DumaTorpedo (talk • contribs) 10:58, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Petty Apartheid refers to "the practice of segregation in the routine of daily life - in lavatories, restaurants, railway cars, buses, swimming pools and other public facilities."1 Hence, Bantu education is included in this as it is racial segregation of education and the content thereof. I would not argue however if you were to move Bantu education to another section as it is fringe. Waddie96 (talk) 17:52, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Pass laws I disagree with though as it refers to the inability of freedom of movement of non-whites and unable to settle or live in certain areas which fits the definition above.Waddie96 (talk) 17:53, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

1991 and 1994

Howzit, all.

I've been following the recent edit warring on this article over the dates apartheid ended with some interest, and I was a little surprised to see that despite the apparent contention of this issue no talk page discussion has been opened to hash it out. I'm starting one now so that the contributors involved can make their input known here.

My two cents: I was taught in school that apartheid ended in 1991, but elections were not held until 1994. Hence why in my original revision of the lead I wrote that apartheid lasted from 1948 to 1991. However, it seems a sizable number of editors believe apartheid did not end until 1994, when the first multiracial elections were held. This appears to be the prevailing sentiment these days, but I find it problematic because that's not when apartheid ended per se, it's when white minority rule ended.

Why is this distinction important? Well, if no distinction is made between apartheid and white minority rule, then one could argue apartheid dates back to 1910 when the Union of South Africa was established. In light of this I feel that confusing the two concepts is a gross oversimplification of South African history. That being said, I'll acknowledge that the perception of apartheid having meaningfully ended in 1994 is currently prevalent, and it would be folly for Wikipedia to ignore it.

The lead remains contentious because of the disconnect between the opening lead sentence and a follow-up sentence which clarifies that apartheid legislation was abolished in 1991, while the first nonracial elections were held in 1994. The previous opening lead sentence states that apartheid ended in 1994. This implicitly favours one perception over the other. I've seen this type of disconnect before, and the best way to resolve it was usually through the addition of an annotation which clarifies the facts for the readership. Stating that apartheid ended in the 1990s in the opening sentence with an annotation explaining the 1991/1994 situation is, I feel, the most optimal compromise available. It does not lend weight to either perception and eliminates the redundancy of the follow-up sentence. Again, would love to get some additional input on this.

Thanks, --Katangais (talk) 20:12, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Agreed that white minority rule predates apartheid, with apartheid having a pretty clear beginning in 1948 as the name of the policy that brought the NP to power in that year. I am very sceptical of the claim that apartheid ended in 1991 because "that's when apartheid laws were abolished". 1991 was neither the first step nor the last step in the long process of dismantling the legal and political system of apartheid. 1994 was a much more significant endpoint. Having said that, I think the opening paragraph is reaching a better place and the footnote is a good step. Zaian (talk) 21:01, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, thank you to whomever added the note to the date in the lead reading 1948 to early 1990s. Provides clarity and is accurate without too much debate. Thanks! Waddie96 (talk) 07:55, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

'I am very sceptical of the claim that apartheid ended in 1991" User: Zaian

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Immorality_Act,_1927 -> removed in 1985

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Prohibition_of_Mixed_Marriages_Act,_1949 -> removed in 1985

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Immorality_Act,_1927 -> removed in 1985

I am also very skeptical that apartheid ended in 1991, I think it already ended in law in 1985 if you ask me.

Since it's contested we should just say it ended in the early 1990s as far as the lead is concerned. We can hash out the specifics in the main body text. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 23:42, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Uncapitalized “black” implies all those non-white in South Africa

I am of Asian ancestry and identity as black. In South African legislation and society “black” uncapitalized is all non-white. DumaTorpedo (talk) 14:40, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Do you have a source for that, please? First I've heard of it. — Jon C.^ॐ 16:25, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

The constitution, in the preamble it states that South Africa belongs to all “black and white”. Also, in general South African English is this is how the term is used. Started in the 1970ks with the black consciousness Movement led by Steve Biko, it was thought that non-white was demeaning and had negative connotations thus “black” was used instead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DumaTorpedo (talk • contribs) 02:37, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

"South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white" is from the Freedom Charter; the preamble to the Constitution has a similar line but doesn't include the words "black and white". Zaian (talk) 06:55, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

While I have no opinion on describing Asian, Coloured, and black South Africans as a single "black majority", I feel it's problematic to identify black South Africans solely as "Africans", as the lead sentence being discussed above stated. This ignores the fact that Afrikaners and other groups of European and Asian ancestry may also be correctly described as "Africans". Describing white South Africans as "Europeans" or simply "whites" and black South Africans as "Africans" is an inaccurate hangover from the apartheid classification system.

BTW black South African redirects to Bantu peoples in South Africa. Hence while "black majority" can refer to South Africans of all races other than white, as far as Wikipedia is concerned, "black South African" means Bantu peoples and their descendants. The capitalisation of races such as "white" or "black" is not covered under MOS:CAPS and should therefore be omitted. Coloured gets capitalised because it's in reference to a specific ethnic group in Southern Africa rather than a general description of race. --Katangais (talk) 20:54, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

@DumaTorpedo: I see the latest revision of the article capitalised "white" and again identified black South Africans simply as "Africans". Discuss here before re-adding this information. Thanks, --Katangais (talk) 01:13, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi, uncapitalized black implies all those non-white . As for the communities that fall under black; instead of just “Africa” one can insert “Black African”. It is important to add this as in Apartheid’s repression was of non-whites and due this negative connotation “black” should be used instead considering the insensitivity of being “non-“ something. DumaTorpedo (talk) 07:09, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

While "black" does imply South Africans who are not white to many South Africans, and "non-white" has negative connotations, usage of "black" would be confusing to an international audience. This needs to be taken into account. Park3r (talk) 09:00, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Agreed that it may be confusing to an international audience. Prehaps an explanation later in the article? Or a footnote? The articles conventions are South African English and this information should definitely be included as it forms an integral part of Soutb African history. I do however see your point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DumaTorpedo (talk • contribs) 10:52, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

While the article is indeed written in South African English, our audience is predominantly global, and the majority of the readership are from regions other than Southern Africa (namely Asia, North America, and Europe). General regionalisms should be omitted if they are likely to evoke widespread confusion and possibly edit warring by our international readers. We're solving an editing as well as a readership comprehension problem by finding acceptable ways to describe the topic in South African English while omitting especially confusing regionalisms like this one.

On a related note, if we're going to start capitalising "Black" as a race, this needs to be implemented with consistency across all South African English articles. I've opened a discussion to that effect here and encourage everybody to voice their opinions on the topic. --Katangais (talk) 17:06, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

In some contexts black refers to all non-white, however, in the context of this article I feel it would be of benefit to specify black, coloured and asian. Since, it would be our assumption that saying black would only refer to Black Africans. Maybe if black was used in the context of non-white a footnote could be used to explain the concept? Waddie96 (talk) 17:47, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

The foot-note that explains the context of “black” sounds like a good idea. A foot note similar to the one that explains when Apartheid ended should suffice. While I do agree that “black” is a confusing regionalism, it does relate to Apartheid and considering it was used during the struggle against Apartheid to unite those all “non-white” under a single positive banner this is an important discussion to have DumaTorpedo (talk) 06:53, 1 May 2018 (UTC)DumaTorpedo

Here a few examples that show it is unusual for Indian people to be referred to as black (capitalised or uncapitalised):

1. In the South African national census Indians/Asians comprise a distinct category from that of black South Africans
2. In the application of quota systems at public universities in South Africa, Indian people comprise a distinct group.
3. The apartheid regime considered Indian people to be a distinct ethnic group evidenced by the fact that under the apartheid government created the South African Indian Council body in 1968 to deal with matters affecting Indian South Africans. Indian South Africans also received limited representation by the House of Delegates body, which was reserved for Indian South Africans, in the tricameral parliament from 1984-1994. Black South Africans were not entitled to any representation under apartheid.
4. Jonathan Annipen's (of the Minority Front) statement that Malema was "trying very hard to frustrate the democratic gains of social cohesion and nation building and is deepening the divide between blacks and Indians." Annipen, an Indian man of a political party which enjoys large support from Indian South Africans, has clearly drawn a distinction between Indian and black people.
5. Ayesha Fakie, an Indian South African who is the head of Sustained Dialogues at the Institute for Justice & Reconciliation in an article states "How we Indians benefit more from empowerment policies than black people..." This statement alone shows Fakie does not consider Indian South Africans to be 'black'.
6. The news article regarding the National Funeral Practioners Association's call to "ban all white and Indian funeral companies from black communities..." again draws a distinction between Indian and black South Africans.
7. A SASCO review of Black Economic Empowerment states "White people held 58.1% of senior management positions‚ black people held 22.1%‚ Indian people held 10.6%..." This shows that a distinction is drawn between Indian and black South Africans.
8. A SAHO article on the history of Indian South Africans states "These laws shaped the political, economic and social fabric and experience of black, Coloured, Indian and white people in South Africa.". Again, this shows a distinction is made between Indian and black South Africans.

Classical liberal za (talk) 04:18, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps this discussion needs revisiting, especially since it appears the problem has not been solved and the inconsistency in racial descriptions within the article remains. Should "black" and "white" be capitalised here or not? --Katangais (talk) 18:58, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

The United States

How it came about seems to cue you in that it governs itself, this decision. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:DFC0:6:6869:D2C3:F526:2529 (talk) 00:30, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Ronald Reagan#How to handle Reagan's response to the AIDS crisis and apartheid in intro

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Ronald Reagan#How to handle Reagan's response to the AIDS crisis and apartheid in intro. Sdkb (talk) 05:51, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Bantu peoples in South Africa#Name on whether a better name is needed

A discussion has begun at Talk:Bantu peoples in South Africa#Name on whether the name is appropriate and if not, can a better name be found. --Red King (talk) 13:02, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

S.s

Was Afrikaans the only reason for the cause of the 1976 Soweto Uprising Tebogo mtshali (talk) 21:28, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Hi Tebogo, the talk page is for discussion on improving the article only. That said, feel free to visit the Soweto Uprising page, and be sure to check out the references cited in the article for more information. Francoisdjvr (talk) 12:31, 9 September 2020 (UTC)