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Archive 5 ← Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9

Requested move 28 November 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by page mover) Bradv 04:06, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

– "Ana Ivanović, who retired in 2017". WP:CONSISTENCY. It's time for Wikipedia to give this Serbian national icon her Serbian name back. She's been singled out on the project as the only BLP on the whole of Wikipedia with simple Unicode standard font set name (i.e. no complicated Đ/Dj ß/ss Þ/th problems) stripped of native spelling; in this case the ć is used to represent a palatalized t (or IPA [t͡ɕ] halfway between "ts" and "ch"). The Serbian, uniquely of all living people bios on en.Wikipedia, has been stripped of the "ć" not just in the title, but in the lede contrary to WP:FULLNAME, and across hundreds of articles with no relation Cosmopolitan Serbia. The second article shows how ridiculous the campaign to give the Serbian an "English name" has been. We have an article Ivanovic–Janković rivalry with two Serbian tennis big names, but one has been "English name"-ized while the other is consistent with the 100,000s of other accented bio and geo articles on en.wp. When this RM hits there'll be a flurry of votes citing ASCII websites as proof that Ivanovic is an exception among all East European BLPs and wanting to continue the special treatment. The special treatment needs to stop. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:12, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

note - I find it highly biased to only list this at the Serbia Wikiproject. Certainly you didn't need to list it at any of her listed wikiprojects, but only Serbia and you listed it as "Talk:Ana Ivanovic. It's Christmas soon." Sorry but I think that stinks. This move request has failed every time you bring it up because Ana chooses to spell her name Ivanovic instead of Ivanović. I shall list it properly in the other projects listed on her talk page. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:45, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
Well I was referring to "on earth peace, good will toward men", stink as it might. This BLP is the most famous living woman in Serbia. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:25, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Support per well-researched and written nomination. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:14, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
    Actually it was with no research at all. She is posting all her marriage and baby info on her personal web pages as Ana Ivanovic. The ITF and WTA tennis organizations also happen to spell it Ana Ivanovic. Don't fall for the "only BLP on the whole of Wikipedia" routine... this type of debate was decided long ago to go with how the person spells their own name in English. Some go with a diacritic version, and some go with the English alphabet. We simply check the sources and go with them. Heck, they live in Chicago, USA. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:32, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
Re : "Don't fall for the "only BLP on the whole of Wikipedia" routine.." Fyunck could easily prove that what the nom says "(i.e. no complicated Đ/Dj ß/ss Þ/th problems)" is untrue by naming one. Presumably one reason anti-diacritic activists watch this page is because it is exactly that, the only simple one.... In ictu oculi (talk) 14:45, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose This same request comes up every two years (usually by the same person) with the same result of not to move. The original resons for denail are the same as they've always been. This is an English encyclopedia. Ana Ivanovic spells her own name in English as Ivanovic not Ivanović. She signs her name without them, she doesn't use them in her personal twitter or facebook accounts (which she easily could), she doesn't use them on her own website (which she easily could). And she emigrated from Serbia to Switzerland. We go by sourcing here, not how we want her to spell her own name. There are other articles that also get their names spelled the way they personally spell it, and want the world to spell it... so why not Ana Ivanovic? Ivanovic is how she presents herself to the entire world. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:35, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:TRANSLITERATE as an "established English-language treatment for [her] name." Nihlus 00:57, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Same editor regurgitating the same request (using the same tricks and the same false claims) but without providing any new arguments or viewpoints to warrant yet another RfC.--Wolbo (talk) 01:16, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, of course after 2 years I am "regurgitating" the same sore thumb about a stick out article. Likewise same editors Fyunck, Wolbo, RamblingMan, who have voted before for Ana Ivanovic to be unique among en.wp's BLP corpus. There is no "false claim" in the nomination - if there were then these three editors would disprove it. And most tennis editors are well aware of WP:TENNISNAMES WP:TENNISNAMES2 RFCs, would that they would abide by the WP:SNOW result in both.... In ictu oculi (talk) 09:38, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose as per WP:TRANSLITERATE and all of the above, I find it rather sad and depressing someone comes here twice a year to request a move even tho it's failed each and every time before .... IIO you really need to get a life mate - Just give up, accept defeat and move on. –Davey2010Talk 01:27, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
November 2015 to 2017 is a two year gap. Prompted by the subject's retirement from tennis which gives some hope that tennis editors will leave her alone. There is such a thing as WP:CONSISTENCY and WP:MOS. Or strip every article on en.wp to ASCII In ictu oculi (talk) 09:57, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:DIACRITICS. The subject is from a country that uses the diacritics in question. Encyclopedias such as Wikipedia typically don't "translate" names of living or modern people and Wikipedia does not have technical limitations or style-manual issues requiring it to drop diacritics as some less accurate sources do. (cf. Jelena Janković, Janko Tipsarević, and Nenad Zimonjić.) Diacritics such as these do no harm (they can be "read through", i.e. ignored, by those who take umbrage) but they do make an affirmative contribution to the topic as noted in the nomination. —  AjaxSmack  02:55, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    • I could try and get on board the idea of "read through/do no harm" for accents such as these. But it doesn't stop there, we use impenetrable Vietnamese/Icelandic/Cyrillic/etc characters and the same reason to support them is what is used here. It has me baffled why we have a policy that says use the most common form and so rarely follow it. Jenks24 (talk) 07:47, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:TRANSLITERATE and WP:DIACRITICS, her website, sources in the article and a Google search. Hmlarson (talk) 03:25, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:DIACRITICS. The current title is clearly the most common name in reliable sources, as has been demonstrated in a multitude of RMs, and is also how the subject herself chooses to identify, e.g. on Twitter and her personal website. If anything I think this discussion shows that it is Jankovic that should probably be moved. Jenks24 (talk) 07:47, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    So the entire en.wp BLP and geo article corpus is wrong and this one article which was stripped of ć is correct? Jenks24 can I suggest that instead of going for another tennis player, given that the history of WP:TENNISNAMES that you initiate a RM on Lech Wałęsa where a broader non-tennis selection of editors can overturn en.wp practice. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:11, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
    Our corpus has been pushed that way by a very active minority of editors. Whenever there is actually a broad discussion about this issue it's interesting that the community is relatively split, often with a majority in favour of using our current policy of reflecting the common name in sources. As to starting a RM (or RFC), I have long ago given up initiating discussions on this issue – I simply comment on the ones that happen to pop up at RM. Even that I sometimes come to regret; I've wasted too much of my life as it is debating this issue. Jenks24 (talk) 10:28, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
This completely is not true Jenks24, if en.wikipedia today has 5,522,157 articles which are wrong in your view, and 1 article, this one, which is right, then you cannot blame it on a "very active minority of editors". There are 600 new articles every day. All of them, or almost all, immediately created in UNICODE, very few as ASCII. The reason this one article (and this BLP's name every time she appears in 100 other articles) is at odds with rest of the article corpus is not because of a secret few foreignizing the other 5,522,156 articles, it is because this page is watchlisted by the remaining anti-diacritic editors who remain committed to this 1 article making a last stand for a lobby that had its peak at WP:TENNISNAMES and was WP:SNOW rejected, leaving this 1 article as some kind of trophy to anti-diacritics. If you really believe that UNICODE is so bad and ASCII is what editors and readers really want then please go back to where the big debate was at Lech Wałęsa. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:41, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Anyone reading this will see that is a ridiculous misinterpretation of what I said. If this issue such a fait accompli, as you have been insisting for years now, and this is truly the only odd article out then it should be straightforward to start a RFC to change WP:DIACRITICS. But you haven't and neither has anyone else. And the reason is because whenever it's discussed at the community level there has never been a consensus to insert characters into titles that are not supported by the majority of reliable sources. That you and others have moved tens of thousands of articles does not change that fact. Jenks24 (talk) 03:20, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
A small percentage of the 5,522,157 articles have been created in ASCII, that is undeniable. I've seen it happen often that an IP or new editor creates a bio stub and then an experienced editor comes along, adds refs, cats, Talk page templates and upgrades to UNICODE. But the idea that all these editors improving articles to UNICODE are some kind of subversive underground is ridiculous. We had large RFCs at Tennis and Ice Hockey which attracted far more editors than the handful who hang around the WP:DIACRITICS paragraph, and whenever this issue goes out to a large amount of editors they go with UNICODE. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:21, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Probably true on Jankovic. I have seen her signature and it does not contain diacritics. I'd have to check what her personal websites and other sources tell us but I'm usually busy on other projects. Fyunck(click) (talk) 11:13, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose per MOS:IDENTITY. The highest criterions are "use what reliable sources use" and "use what the subject identifies themselves as." Using a by-rote transliteration is the emergency backup when it isn't known how the subject identifies themselves and they aren't heavily covered by reliable sources. Enforcing the Serbian form of the name would be like forcing people who changed their name on emigration, conversion to Islam, or transgender transition to use their old name.... which MIGHT be okay if there was truly an avalanche of reliable sources using the old name, but the reverse is true here! SnowFire (talk) 18:56, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
SnowFire (1) Ivanović has not changed her name, nor nationality. "No, I am Serbian. You know, all of us Serbians tend to be very emotional." (2) When Lech Wałęsa's name appears in ASCII sources not UNICODE sources that is not Lech Wałęsa's choice. It does not mean that Lech Wałęsa has emigrated, converted to being a non-Pole, or transitioned to an Englishman. I am not going to change your Oppose because I am aware of your view, but I feel this explanation should be answered if only for the subject herself. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:21, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
  • We had this argument last time, but you are still (IMO) conflating something totally irrelevant. Absolutely nobody, nobody, is even talking about whether she's a Serbian, or has a Serbian nationality, or whatever. It does not matter. Please stop accusing other editors of trying to somehow remove her of her Serbian-ness. Think for a moment about the implications of that: does this mean that someone who refers to themselves as Juan, shows up in reliable sources as Juan, but is American/British, is somehow being stripped of their American identity? That we should forcibly call them John instead? No, because only insane reactionaries would do that. Someone's nationality is totally independent from how they refer to themselves. There can be proud Serbians called Ana, José, and Xiaowei. However they want to refer to themselves as, and how reliable sources want to refer to themselves as, is what matters. SnowFire (talk) 01:31, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
It'll be interesting to see if, in the future, this article ever changes to Ana Schweinsteiger, as she seems to be indicating her use of it in a couple of interviews. We'll have to wait and see. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:04, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Unless you are proposing having an article entitled Schweinsteiger–Janković rivalry that is a complete red herring, even if it were true, which her brands make impossible. You keep on implying that she's ashamed of her Serbian-ness, have you seen that her Initimissimi 2017 campaign has her speaking as Ivanović with the shameful ć?. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:30, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
You mean the same campaign, on that same page, where she's referred to in as "Mario Testino captures ... Ana Ivanovic..."? Way to go. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:26, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
0:30 "I am Ana Ivanović, I am a tennis player, and I am very proud to represent Serbia at the Olympics" In ictu oculi (talk) 14:36, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Title of YouTube movie: "Ana Ivanovic - Serbia | Tennis Player | London 2012 Olympics". Ivanovic. Way to go. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:15, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Furthermore, I recommend that a moratorium of at least 5 years be placed on this article, due to these recurring RMs on this topic. GoodDay (talk) 17:15, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
Well that isn't happening even to Hilary Clinton. But I must say I wonder if this article can ever be brought in line with the rest of the project while the same six or seven of you are watching it and making it a special case. I'll tell you what bothers me; The problem is that as long as this article is like this the potential is always there for one of the anti-UNICODE editors to reopen the disruption caused by WP:TENNISNAMES a few years back. And that's why every two years I think a RM template is required. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:32, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
Who can predict the future? GoodDay (talk) 01:45, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose in this one specific case per WP:ABOUTSELF. Most removals of diacritics on WP are jingoistic nonsense, but in this case the subject markets herself in English as Ivanovic without the diacritics, and it's not WP's job to tell her she's wrong about her own name preferences. This is exactly the same case as Stana Katic, basically, except the latter was also born in North America and has a different skill set. [PS: If anyone's wondering why most other cases are b.s., it's because numerous Western news publishers have an official policy of stripping diacritics from all names or from all names other than French and Spanish ones, to dumb down the content for their lowest-common-denominator readers, and many sport governing bodies and the like also drop all of them, for the organization's own expediency. While this pattern is decreasing a little with each passing year (probably as old people die and young people who know how them-them computer thangs work and what that Unicode whatsit stuff is, take their place, it's still a serious problem. The import for WP is that they're categorically unreliable sources for linguistic matters. They may be reliable for sports news, of course. Likewise, a linguistic journal is probably not reliable for sports news. No source is reliable for everything, but way too many Wikipedians somehow don't ever figure this out no matter how many times you tell them.]  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<  12:56, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose - the subject of this article doesn't use the diacritics in English, and neither do most sources. Academicoffee71 (talk) 05:15, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose – nothing will ever happened as diacritics are not mostly used in many Western languages. ApprenticeFan work 06:31, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Category:Footballers' wives and girlfriends

Re my removal of Category:Footballers' wives and girlfriends and its reinstatement by StAnselm... Category:Footballers' wives and girlfriends says "Only articles about those for whom this is a defining characteristic should be placed in this category", and WP:CATDEF says "A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having". @StAnselm: could you please provide some references that commonly and consistently describe Ivanovic as being the wife/girlfriend of Schweinsteiger (and not, for example, "Tennis ace"[1] or "Former World No. 1 [tennis player]"[2]). Mitch Ames (talk) 04:23, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Sure - it seems English newspapers tend to describe her in that way.[1][2]

References

  1. ^ https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/4980057/ana-ivanovic-pregnant-bastian-schweinsteiger/
  2. ^ http://www.wtatennis.com/news/ivanovic-welcomes-son-husband-schweinsteiger

Vast and unimportant

Some of the greatest people in history have shorter Wikipedia entries than Ana Ivanovic. Even as a tennis player she wasn't important enough to deserve this gargantuan entry. 74.128.114.146 (talk) 01:02, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 18 August 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There are more opposes than supports, and they cite the observation that the subject is commonly known in English without the diacritics. Some supporters pointed out that she uses it on her social media sites, but then others were identified that do not use it, so the MOS:IDENTITY argument is somewhat weak. Overall there is a rough consensus against moving at this time.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:26, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Ana Ivanovic → Ana Ivanović – Original name is Ana Ivanović. 5.43.102.127 (talk) 15:03, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

See also WP:SERBIANNAMES. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:39, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment – what has been the practice till now? FkpCascais (talk) 21:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
    @FkpCascais:The practice has been to ignore all tennis authority sources and all English language sources, in regards to spelling. Including the spelling anyone uses in their required tennis registration. What we have gone with was personal usage in English. If a player has personal websites that they control, verified signatures, etc, that show they do not usually use diacritics in English, then we do not use diacritics here. If we have zero to go on, as with a low ranked player that really has no English input other than tennis scores, we tend to use the diacritics from their home country. There are always exceptions at wikipedia such as actor Raúl Juliá who was shown to personally spell his name with diacritics in multiple sources, yet was voted down in its usage by the community. Ivanovic has always disdained from diacritics in all her personal usage in English. Even her signature. However, two of her personal websites have recently changed to include it (Instagram & Twitter), but not in other sites. I don't think we'll get anymore current signatures because she has official change her name to "Ana Schweinsteiger." Some wikipedia articles move to the new name but tennis tends to use the name under which they became notable. Because of the two social account changes this move request was quite reasonable. Whether those two items are enough, especially with a logo that doesn't use it, is what is being questioned here. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
    @FkpCascais: the practice for en.wp BLPs? As Fyunck says "The practice has been to ignore all tennis authority sources and all English language sources" - he's almost correct. :) There are a few high-MOS sources tennis books which use more than basic ASCII fonts, but not many, British, American and Australian sports writers and their publishers would be typographically challenged by café or Emily Brontë. And again along the lines of what Fyunck says en.wp practice is to not follow low-MOS sources for the entire article corpus, both title and text body. This is a fact - anyone can verify from a few clicks: Category:Serbian female tennis players, via Category:Towns_in_Malta to Category:Vietnamese footballers, to random article generator link Special:Random. The entire corpus of en.wikipedia's 6,146,513 follows this, except for (a) names outside the 26 letter standard Latin/English alphabet, (b) this article where Fyunck has being leading a WP:OWN local consensus since the bio was given an "English name" in 2012 Talk:Ana_Ivanovic/Archive_6#Requested_move_2012_#1. Fyunck has also been through the article corpus text removing ć from any mention of Ivanović, typically from pages bristling with full-fonts for other people. Either way this RM requires a relist to get broader set of eyes on this particular sore thumb. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:41, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
    Knock off the continual lying about me with OWN In ictu oculi, and stop making things personal. You have been warned many times by administrators about lying about people in the past so lying about them again doesn't get you any brownie points except with others who are incapable of telling the truth. Stop making things personal and stick to the topic at hand. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:30, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Fair enough. I suppose my suggestion that you have been "leading an WP:OWN local consensus" was unnecessary and and I'm happy to apologise and strike that. It's a distraction from the basic point per MOS:IDENTITY made by Nedop above the subject of the BLP uses the Serbian spelling in her Instagram profile, her own logo, etc. And as Nedop says it inconsistent to have article titles like this: Ivanovic–Janković rivalry. Let's focus on that. Cheers. -- would also politely request the admin closer (ideally should be an admin close since this is a BLP) to address in the closing statement from policy why this BLP should be different MOS or same MOS as all other East European living persons please. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
It will be a case of community consensus overrides MOS, a la WP:IAR, which is pretty straightforward to understand. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 10:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
No, it will not, because that is exactly the opposite of what WP:LOCALCONSENSUS says: "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale." Even if the same editors keep voting to have one BLP treated differently from all other East Europe BLPs, that WP:LOCALCONSENSUS cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. Fundamentally neither you, nor the others, have provided any policy-based reason why this BLP cannot have the MOS:IDENTITY shown on Instagram profile, her own logo, and shown in "sources reliable for purpose" (i.e. in this context sources with full Unicode Latin fonts). In ictu oculi (talk) 13:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
Well you sound rather angry there. The irony, of course, is that you have policy (IAR) vs policy (CONSENSUS) vs guideline (MOS). So should this discussion go against your personal preference once again, it should be taken with a pinch of salt because all such outcomes are allowable. I'm sorry it's so upsetting for you, but this is a community project. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 22:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
Would also politely request the admin closer check Category:Serbian people by occupation to verify the fact that en.wp does use Serbian fonts in Serbian BLPs, as indeed any other article anywhere on en.wp. Thank you. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:33, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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