Talk:America: Imagine the World Without Her/Archive 6

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Shapiro quote

Regarding this, I am fine with including it per WP:BIASED ("Common sources of bias include political... beliefs. While a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context") and WP:SUBSTANTIATE ("Biased statements of opinion can be presented only with attribution"). Per WP:SUBSTANTIATE, we can state the nature of Breitbart.com (as well as the other politically slanted sources) when using them in this article. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 20:57, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Commenting further, I've seen two instances where the Shapiro quote was removed via dubious rationale. One revert cited WP:QS & WP:SPS and the other cited WP:BLP. None of these guidelines applies. Breitbart is certainly not SPS, so that does not apply. It might be a WP:IDONTLIKEIT source, but it not being used for factual assertions so QS does not apply. Finally, Shapiro does not refer to any particular people so I cannot see how BLP would apply. (Consider an extension of the BLP argument – the film reviewer summary webpages actually refer to particular reviewers, but these sources don't violate BLP.) Whether editors like or dislike Breitbart should not impact editing decisions. The Shapiro comment is WP:NOTEWORTHY and proper for inclusion. – S. Rich (talk) 22:28, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Really? I'm surprised you've chosen to cast aspersions on the motives of other editors here. We have a quote from an extremely poor source with a negative reputation in the required areas or reliablity and factchecking, written by a known fabulist (google "Friends of Hamas" for Shaprio's "reliability" regarding the individuals he opines about, I won't repeat his libel here) who is casting aspersions on the motives of individuals cited in the article. Any one of those things should make a conscientious editor think twice about including this material at all, much less edit war to include the material without consensus or discussion in violation of WP:BRD. Gamaliel (talk) 23:55, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Srich, you should read SPS because it applies to both self published sources and questionable sources. So it does apply because Breitbart.com is a questionable by multiple metrics defined by WP:QS. Furthermore, nothing in WP:QS or WP:Aboutself limits the policies to statements of "fact". They apply to all claims made by questionable sources and that includes opinions. The very nature of the word "contentious" is something that isn't verifiable as fact, and is therefore arguable/argumentative. So his opinions are his argumentative viewpoints about critics who disliked the movie and are therefore not allowed by WP:QS. Furthermore, WP:QS specifically addresses how questionable sources are heavily reliant on personal opinions, meaning that the limits on QS applies to opinions as well. WP:Abouself specifically says "it does not involve claims about third parties". This is not restricted to facts but to all "claims" which includes opinions. Is Shapiro making claims about third parties? Yes. Therefore it's a violation of WP policy to include it.Scoobydunk (talk) 10:24, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Off topic - For the record, Erik, the balancing material on the bio/legal issue is neither "SYNTH" nor "OR", as it consists of direct source quotation, any more than the background legal sentence in the old version of the previous paragraph was, which was sourced to an article that didn't mention the film, or than the current background legal clause/link is. It's irresponsible for this article to omit any mention of D'Souza's claim having serious support, which it does, if we're going to have some hack partisan blogger say it doesn't. If you're trying to make a distinction between Dershowitz and the WT commenting on the actual case while the HP bloggers are merely commenting on the film not supporting the claim, that's a fine, convoluted tightrope to walk considering the HP quotes used don't make that clear. If balancing material is banned here, at the very least it would be wise to add a clarifying paraphrase along the lines of "...embarrassing and without support" in the film. after the closing quote, lest readers be misled. VictorD7 (talk) 23:51, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I have NOT cast aspersions on the motives of any editors. My commentary has been towards the rationale given. Gamaliel, given that you said (above) "We need a pretty compelling reason to employ a contemptible source like Breitbart...." I think IDONTLIKEIT applies, but I AGF as to your motives. As for edit warring, please note that two editors commented here on the edit and you did your reverts without discussion. – S. Rich (talk) 01:54, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Dismissing the policy-based reasons offered for not including the material as IDONTLIKEIT is not compatible with AGF. How many times do we have to identify the policy based reasons we object to inclusion before you people actually accept that policy based reasons are being offered? You don't have to agree with them, but to pretend they haven't been offered again and again and again is preposterous. Gamaliel (talk) 22:57, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

At Erik, WP:Biased strictly applies to reliable sources. "However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective." It does not apply to questionable sources. Questionable and self published sources have their own stringent guidelines that have to be met. Those sources can be biased, but they can not include claims about third parties. So WP:biased does not override or bypass the guidelines in place regarding questionable source or SPS. WP:biased goes on to say "When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking." This, again, proves that sources still have to meet WP requirements for being a reliable source. If the source is not reliable, then it can not be included under an argument of WP:biased.Scoobydunk (talk) 10:24, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Try reading the RfC from not long ago - where the consensus was that Breitbart is absolutely RS for opinions cited as opinions here.

Consensus is yes/acceptable/reliable in response to the question. Samsara 06:50, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Which rather seems to end the arguments ad nauseam. Once a WP:CONSENSUS is found, it takes a bit of chutzpah to reargue the exact same issue. (proposing to change a recent consensus can be disruptive.) Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:51, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

This dispute is not about the same question. SPECIFICO talk 15:16, 6 December 2014 (UTC)source for opinions expressed by its writers?

It is precisely the same question: Is Breitbart a Reliable Source for opinions cited as opinions? I would trust you concur that film reviews are, indeed, opinions. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:34, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

The issues are a bit different than those brought up in the RFC. Mainly the RFC did not address BLP concerns. In the recent Shapiro edits and reverts the argument is made that because Shapiro is talking about unnamed critics, BLP should apply. But does Shapiro talk about any individual or about any individual's politics? Well, since we do not have individuals named, the most pertinent policy is at WP:BLPGROUP. But what is the "group" of persons we seek to protect? In this case it is those critics that Shapiro sees as liberals. But are they a "group" in the BLPGROUP sense? I don't think so – they have not identified themselves as the "Association of Film Critics who Don't Like America" Indeed, they don't even qualify as a Neighborhood Watch. They are simply an assortment of critics that Shapiro describes as liberal. And we do not know if they identify themselves as a group. Bottom line – the BLP argument is not applicable. If it were, then any critic who said "The filmmaker(s) has/have created a dud/masterpiece." would not be acceptable because of BLP concerns. – S. Rich (talk) 15:37, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

• I actually like Breitbart, but it is currently considered in general a questionable source by WP. That said, it can be a source for itself reliably. The RfC doesn't really apply in this new case, because the RfC was as to if Breitbart can be a reliable sources as to its own commentary on the film (through the Christian Toto review), this is a straightforward application without any BLP issues involved that a questionable source can be a source for its own views about itself. If there is no BLP issue, then Breitbart can be trusted to reliably report its own opinion. The question then becomes with this more recent quote by Shapiro, is there a BLP issue? Had he said "reviewer X cant separate their artistic sensibilities from their political ones" then I would say there is. In this case though he does not single out any individual critic, and instead refers to movie critics in general. I don't think this qualified for BLP under WP:BLPGROUP. The question is the group he is talking about so small that "it may be impossible to draw a distinction between the group and the individuals that make up the group." In this case "movie critics" in general is a broad enough term that I don't think WP:BLPGROUP applies. And while consensus cannot override policy, that doesn't mean it can't decide where the dividing line is in close cases. So if consensus is that the group is too large for WP:BLPGROUP to apply, then it should be added back in. Obsidi (talk) 22:10, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

When you present four critics by name then shortly after that you present a quote directly attacking unnamed movie critics, the reader is going to interpret that as Shapiro attacking Martin Tsai, et al. So BLP issues definitely come into play here, and as a result we have a responsibility to consider the reliability of the criticism and criticism's source. Do we want to use Wikipedia's voice to present an attack from a publication known for fabrications and vicious attacks (e.g Shirley Sherrod) written by a known fabulist and character assassin (e.g. "Friends of Hamas") and present that attack as directed at four named living individuals? Gamaliel (talk) 22:57, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I'll acknowledge that it is a debatable question (I think the core question) would a reasonable reader come to the conclusion from reading the article as a whole that Shapiro was talking about the movie critics named on this page, or movie critics in general. I come down on the other side of that question. --Obsidi (talk) 00:29, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Here you admit that Breitbart is a questionable source. Yes, a questionable source can be reliable for it's own opinions, but the second part of the policies surrounding questionable sources is that they should only be used on articles or topics about themselves. If a writer for Breitbart decided to review a scientific research paper about global climate change, that doesn't mean we get to include quotes from Breitbart.com expressing a dissenting opinion, even if it's directly attributed to BB. It's because the article "global climate change" is not about breitbart.com and it is considered a questionable source which is not suitable or reliable enough to include for opinions on other subjects. Furthermore, both WP:QS and WP:Aboutself say that questionable sources can not be used to make contentious claims about others/third parties. Is Shapiro making claims about others? Yes. Is Breitbart.com a questionable source? Yes. Then it is WP policy that the quote can not be included and as you said "consensus cannot override policy." This is really very simple.Scoobydunk (talk) 15:19, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Is he "making claims about others"? The answer to that question must be based on WP:BLPGROUP, and as that policy says "The extent to which the BLP policy applies to edits about groups is complex and must be judged on a case-by-case basis." So its not so open as shut as you are trying to make it out to be. --Obsidi (talk) 18:08, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

No, WP:QS and WP:Aboutself are not restricted by BLP guidelines. They specifically speak to claims about third parties and those parties can be dead or living. Furthermore, BLP guidelines apply to reliable sources that make claims about others. This is from the lead of BLP "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a **reliable**, published source, which is usually done with an inline citation."(emphasis mine). The WP:BLPGROUP you reference only applies to a reliable source that makes those claims, they do not apply to questionable sources, poorly sourced sources, tabloids, or self published sources as is explained throughout the entire article. So if a source is considered questionable, it is automatically disqualified from the same protections that WP:BLP gives reliable sources with the exception of sources that are written by the subject because then they act as a primary source. As BLP states, "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." However, I didn't need to read WP:BLP to know that because it's already specifically outlined in WP:QS and WP:Aboutself which both take precedence since they are part of one of the 3 pillars of WP policy. So, "Yes", it's as open and shut as I make it, even more so. Trying to find some loophole on BLP wouldn't override WP:verifiable or WP:reliability guidelines which specifically state that questionable sources can not make claims about third parties. BLP guidelines offer additional clarification for sources that already meet WP reliable/verifiable standards. They do not give extra permissions to questionable sources or unreliable sources not covered by WP:verifiable or WP:reliable.Scoobydunk (talk) 09:20, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

So who is this "third party" that you say the Shapiro quote is about? You can make the argument that because of how we have put other quotes near by that a reader might think he was talking about them specifically (that's a reasonable argument, one I disagree with, but reasonable). But if it is not them, then who? --Obsidi (talk) 17:40, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

The third parties or "others" would be the critics that he's directly commenting on. It doesn't have to be a specific third party, hence why the policies don't say "a specific person". It would be the same as if he was commenting on "Jews" or "Blacks", when a QS makes contentious claims about third parties they can not be used.Scoobydunk (talk) 14:35, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Might you direct us to the policy which says that criticism about large groups of unnamed people needs the sourcing you aver, noting that the claim is opinion cited as opinion, that the source was found to be RS at WP:RS/N and that other material from the same source were found by consensus at a very recent RfC above to be usable in this article? Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:52, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

The RFC only found Breitbart to be reliable as a source for its own opinions. This doesn't stop it from being a questionable source as defined by WP:QS. Yes, WP:QS states that such sources can be used as reliable sources for their own content but should only be used on articles/topics about themselves. This is because they can act as "primary" sources for their own content and those primary sources are only applicable on articles about that source/person. For example, on the Shapiro page I can use a Breitbart.com article written by Shapiro to quote something Shapiro as said. Also, both WP:QS and WP:Aboutself both explain that questionable sources can not be used to make claims about third parties and a group of unnamed people is still a third party. Cheers.Scoobydunk (talk) 09:55, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

WP:BRD is not a problem for keeping it in the article currently, this quote was added on 5 November 2014, the next day Gamaliel reverted do to WP:UNDUE (this could be valid claim of BRD at this point), VictorD7 reverted complaining about 1 sided reverts for undue, Gamaliel reverted linking to a video of monkey sounds, really somewhat unbecoming of an administrator, which is why I think Gamaliel self-reverted 2 hours later. That was this diff and so it sat for a month until December 3rd when Scoobydunk removed it again and we got the current edit war. That month in-between established consensus for inclusion, and so now it cannot be removed without consensus or a valid policy reason. If there is consensus that BLP issue is not valid, it should be put back in as soon as protection is over (or sooner if the consensus is very clear through an edit request). Unless you can get consensus that it should be removed for non-BLP reasons. --Obsidi (talk) 22:10, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

So because I was unwilling to prolong an edit war, the most stubborn edit warrior gets his edits in the article permanently? That's no consensus, that's providing an incentive for playground-style bullying. Multiple editors object to inclusion, so it should be discussed on talk until real consensus is achieved. That's how Wikipedia works, and the rules don't change because I linked to a monkey video. Gamaliel (talk) 22:57, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Did you turn around after he added it back and discuss it on the talk page and get consensus for its removal? Because if so we can keep it off, but you didn't. You decided to walk away, which is fine if that's what you want to do. Someone else could have removed what he added. But we cant have a situation in which things are sitting live on the page for a long time and then removed long time down the road for lack of consensus. How is anyone to know what the current consensus is otherwise? Had someone else removed his addition, everyone would know that it wasn't the consensus. But as is the other editors were left to believe you changed your mind, agreed with him that it should be included, that in isolation maybe it was undue but with the other stuff on the page balancing it out that it wasn't undue. Maybe that's not what you meant at all, but it is what the other editors on the page have to assume to be the case. Otherwise it encourages people to get into disagreements and if they think the consensus is currently against them just go silent until everyone else leaves and then come back and claim no consensus for adding it. I'm not saying that is what you did, I am saying that is the incentive that would be created if we interpreted the rules as you are suggesting. --Obsidi (talk) 23:36, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

That's a fair interpretation of the potential pitfalls of that approach, but then I could justifiably point out that it provides an incentive for editors to be as obnoxious as possible to run off other editors, and whoever is left standing gets their edits in as the "consensus" version. This is exactly what has happened here. I wished to remove myself from the objectionable behavior of a certain party for a time instead of further escalating the situation. That other party's behavior should not be rewarded. I understand what you are saying at that we want to avoid editors gaming the system by dropping in and out at strategic intervals. But we also want people to be able to take wikibreaks when they need to. All of that, though, is secondary. The fact is that right now, multiple editors are objecting to certain material, and there has never been a consensus for that material to be included. At that point, regardless of how long the material has been in the article, talk page discussion should occur instead of edit warring to restore the material. Gamaliel (talk) 18:20, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

False. I'm not the one who has repeatedly resorted to trolling via giant pictures or links to youtube videos instead of replying with reasoned comments. You are. Regardless, despite you not being the only editor here, the material stood without revert for a month, so it's the consensus status quo. Removing it requires a consensus for doing so. VictorD7 (talk) 20:48, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that your understanding of the RFC is incorrect. The RFC didn't address the content of the article from Breitbart.com, it only addressed whether it was "allowable" on this article. This doesn't mean there was consensus for "inclusion" as that was outside of the scope of the RFC. There are still a multitude of other WP policies that address whether or not a specific quote should be included and those weren't discussed under the RFC. For example, many secondary sources are allowable on any number of articles, but when the majority of sources are from scholarly journals or academic presses that undergo peer review, then those less reliable secondary sources no longer merit inclusion. Regardless, the RFC didn't give a free license for any and all material from breitbart.com to be included, it only determined that it was reliable for it's own quote and was allowable. However, WP policy clearly states that questionable sources are not allowed to make claims about others and the RFC consensus doesn't override policy.Scoobydunk (talk) 09:31, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

There are many potential issues you might raise, but current consensus was to include the Shapiro quote because it didn't violate any policy, Consensus Can Change however, and if you would like to make the argument against including the Shapiro quote that is fine, can I ask that you place your arguments in a different section so we don't mix the QS/BLP potential issues that we have been talking about in this thread with any other potential problems you might object to. --Obsidi (talk) 17:29, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

There wasn't a consensus to include the Shapiro quotes. The RFC dealt with a quote from Toto, not Shapiro. Furthermore, the closer as admitted that his closing consensus only pertained to the aspect that breitbart.com is a reliable source for it's own movie review, not that it automatically merited inclusion. I'm merely correcting your misunderstanding of the RFC. Since you and others keep asserting that it gave consensus for inclusion, when it didn't. The RFC covered what was allowable, not what should/shouldn't be included. So if you want to argue inclusion, I suggest you make another section relevant to those claims.Scoobydunk (talk) 14:40, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't claim the RfC gave consensus for the Shapiro quote (it did create consensus for the Christian Toto review). The 1 month of it sitting on the page without being reverted by anyone created the consensus via editing as per WP:EDITCONSENSUS. --Obsidi (talk) 05:19, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I was under the impression that you claimed I removed a review after the RFC and I only remember recently removing the Shapiro quote. Since this discussion is taking place under the Shapiro quote section, that also lead me to believe you were referring to the Shapiro quote. Regarding the Toto quote, the month of it not being removed does not imply consensus since I've been actively seeking a closure review. So that's not consensus, I merely waited until the review was closed.Scoobydunk (talk) 10:00, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I do not think it is a significant opinion and therefore not worth including. TFD (talk) 23:29, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Gamaliel: I am not dismissing the policies offered. I have considered them and presented analysis as to why they do or do not apply in this case. Regarding the placement of the Shapiro quote after the 4 named critics, that bit of unintentional and incidental synthesis can be resolved when the article is unlocked. We simply move the quote or clarify what was said. Next, there will be no permanent version of this article. Everyone can change it and consensus can change. The comment about Breibart being a "publication known for fabrications" is ad hominem because this allegation is used to attack Shapiro & his opinion. Fabrications have been seen in the NYT and just today Rolling Stone is in the news because of a possible fabrication it published recently. Besides, Shapiro is offered for the opinion he provides, not for any factual issue. Regarding BLPGROUP, my point is that the critics are not "a group". If they were, and if comments about them fell within BLP restrictions, then we could not use material about the critic aggregator webpages. Since Metacritic & Rotten Tomatoes are acceptable RS for the information they post about living persons (e.g., for the opinions they hold and publish) we cannot exclude Shapiro on BLP grounds. – S. Rich (talk) 03:20, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Srich, please review the meaning of "ad hominem." You are misusing the term. SPECIFICO talk 03:46, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Clarified. – S. Rich (talk) 04:42, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

You're dismissing the policies offered and you didn't present an analysis, you merely just asserted that Breitbart.com wasn't a questionable source and also said that WP:aboutself only applies to SPS, which is blatantly wrong. So you haven't substantiated your first assertion and have ignored a rebuttal informing you that ABOUTSELF applies to questionable source as well. So, at this point, you are effectively ignoring policies.Scoobydunk (talk) 15:19, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

The QS issue was thoroughly hashed out in the RFC above. The RFC closure was discussed and there was no decision to reverse the RFC closure. While consensus can change, there is no reason to change the RFC result here. As far as QS is concerned, it it time to WP:MOVEON. – S. Rich (talk) 16:08, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

This is not the same issue. SPECIFICO talk 17:21, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

The QS aspect was **not** discussed thoroughly as I'm looking at how no one responded to or refuted my arguments regarding QS. The only person who actually responded with intent to refute one of my arguments was Documenterror and he said my response was "too long to digest," while it was only 100-200 words longer than his previous post. Clearly he refused to research pertinent WP policies regarding the situation. So, "No" the QS issue wasn't "hashed out" as most people who contributed their comments completely ignored this aspect of wp policy. The RFC itself was an attempt to bypass WP policies regarding questionable sources but consensus on an RFC can not override policy. Your referencing WP:Moveon is what should have been told to Victor the third, fourth, or fifth time he participated in a noticeboard/dispute resolution discussion about the use of breitbart.com and this is another example of you dismissing WP policy and only referencing it when it's convenient. So are you going to actually try and offer a rebuttal to the arguments made, or are you going to tell us more about how WP:AboutSelf doesn't apply to questionable sources?Scoobydunk (talk) 09:00, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

That's ridiculous. People didn't respond to your arguments because they were clearly not valid, and different policy applied. The RfC was for there to build consensus as to how the policies applied to this specific instance from the wider community as there was local disagreement not to override policy. Its time to WP:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass as far as the RfC, you can argue that it doesn't apply in this situation, which I think is true. --Obsidi (talk) 13:07, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Obsidi, you are denigrating Scoobydunk and stating that you disagree but you are not responding to the policy issues Scoobydunk or Srich32977 have raised. It would be helpful if you could address these issues so that the issues can be resolved. SPECIFICO talk 15:18, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I gave my opinion on the substantive issues of the potential policy problems of the Shapiro quote here. And I stand by that. I didn't disagree that it is currently considered a QS, but that doesn't mean that it can never be used (just limits its use especially as applied to third parties). In this case, I don't think there is a BLP problem however, and as such I am fine with using it (as long as it is properly attributed). I object to this sentence:"The RFC itself was an attempt to bypass WP policies regarding questionable sources but consensus on an RFC can not override policy." and his allegations of WP:FORUMSHOPPING. If he wants to make those in the currently still open review of the closure, that's fine (and I have explained THERE why I don't think they are valid). This is not the place to try to undo a closure of an RfC, and continuing to do so is disruptive. If he succeeds in getting the closure reversed at WP:AN then we can talk about what to do, but until that happens its time to WP:DROPTHESTICK about if RfC closure was valid or not here (bring those arguments to WP:AN). --Obsidi (talk) 17:10, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Can we be clearer about this matter? We are discussing whether or not to use Breitbart.com as a reference, correct? The RfC discussed whether or not to reference a film review published at Breitbart.com. The conclusion was that it can be used. Now here we are talking about a passage that is more general commentary. In this article, we are dealing with political opinions, so we are attributing every statement to the appropriate source. Per WP:YESPOV, we are not stating opinions as facts; the opinions all have specific attributions that Wikipedia reports and that the readers can take however they wish. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 15:27, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

The current discussion relates to specific article content, not only to the website to which it's sourced. SPECIFICO talk 18:01, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

The discussion established that Breitbart was WP:RS for opinions cited as opinions. Thus the website issue is moot. On what actual grounds would you excise this opinion cited as opinion, and noting it refers to "film critics" in general, thus is not a WP:BLP issue. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:05, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

It's not ridiculous and you just admitted that people ignored the argument which means they ignored the policies. You admit that Breitbart.com is regarded as a questionable source, and WP:QS and WP:aboutself specifically limit where questionable sources can be used. They can not make contentious claims about others, period. This is also part of the reason that QS and self published sources aren't quoted when discussing "global warming", "physics", or "historicity" of historical figures, an aspect you and others seem keen on ignoring.Scoobydunk (talk) 14:49, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Every RS publication - Rolling Stone, The New York Times, etc. - has published stories which turn out to be false, but those publications still in general have the required reputation for factchecking and accuracy. It is a false equivalence to equate that situation with publications like Breitbart which have zero reputation for factchecking and accuracy and instead have the opposite reputation, one of falsification and character assassination. Gamaliel (talk) 18:25, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

This has been repeatedly discussed at WP:RS/N as well as in the RfC above, with the result that opinions are scarcely likely to be faked by their own authors. Here we deal with general opinions, correctly sourced and cited as such. Thus usable. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:33, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. No doubt that Breitbart has made mistakes over it's 7 year existence so far. The biggest of which is the whole "Friends of Hamas" incident. They posted what a senate aid told them, and they posted it as such ("A senate said told us..."). They should have also gone to independently confirm everything they could (like the groups independent existence), but they didn't in that case. But the Rolling Stone is basically guilty of the exact same thing with this recent UVA rape story. Stupid not to do the ground work to confirm the story they were told was actually true (like that there was a party that night or that the "Drew" even exists). --Obsidi (talk) 20:40, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I'd hardly consider Rolling Stone the gold standard, but at any rate it is not relevant to this discussion. SPECIFICO talk 20:50, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Above you note that Breitbart is considered a questionable source. Obviously questionable sources like Breitbart should not be treated as the equivalent of generally reliable ones like Rolling Stone, The New York Times, etc. Gamaliel (talk) 00:20, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Repeatedly, Breitbart has been found to be RS for opinions cited as opinions. Have you failed to note that? And specifically the RfC above found Breitbart to be usable for opinions cited as opinions. IDIDNTHEARTHAT is disheartening coming from an admin who has acted as an admin on this article (17:11 19 Aug), (19:47 26 Aug). Collect (talk) 12:15, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I hear it just fine. We can use it, I got it. However, that finding does not mandate that we must include those particular opinions in the article, nor does it eliminate all other considerations like BLP, notability, etc. As for the rest of it, since you didn't include diffs, I'm not going to dig through the edit history to figure out how whatever forgotten edits I made months ago are somehow relevant to this matter. Gamaliel (talk) 17:08, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I gave the times -- one is hard-pressed to give a "diff" on a revdel by an admin, or a move by an admin. They were specifically admin actions to be sure, but you definitely acted in that role. Collect (talk) 19:51, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

The dates and times don't seem to match anything in the edit history I can find. On the 19th I deleted a personal attack in an edit summary in an edit with a different time stamp, and on the 26th I can't find anything I did to the article at all. I fail to see the relevance of any of this. Gamaliel (talk) 20:44, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Inasmuch as they are in your log, I daresay that they do not "show up in the edit history." Special:Log/Gamaliel is the place to look. In one you moved the article archive as an admin, in the other you "changed visibility of a revision on page America (2014 film): edit summary hidden (RD3: Purely disruptive material) " which is also an admin action. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:56, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

The latter was the action of the 19th I already mentioned in my comment, the action of the 26th was a page move of a talk page archive which obviously wouldn't appear in the edit history of the article where I was looking and a page move is not an admin action in any case. Still waiting for the relevance of this. Perhaps we should move this discussion to my talk page since it has nothing to do with the Shapiro quote. Gamaliel (talk) 23:02, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

It's extremely inappropriate to use admin powers in a dispute in which you're a heated participant as an editor, especially in strictly one sided fashion. Were you the one who deleted my innocuous edit summary while ignoring the personal attacks coming from your side, and the trollish material in your own edit summaries? I had my suspicions, but charitably assumed you had at least talked another admin into doing it. VictorD7 (talk) 20:19, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

The New York Times and Rolling Stone are not good examples for comparison. We reference the online-only sources Daily Kos and Salon for political opinions. How is Breitbart different from these to disqualify it for referencing? Is it strictly a BLP concern, since we already reference it for a film review? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 17:27, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Salon is an RS, not a questionable source. I don't think Daily Kos belongs here either, but if a questionable source like Breitbart is included, then the same relaxation of standards should apply to both sides of the debate. Gamaliel (talk) 17:34, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Salon is a left wing opinion blog, even more questionable for most situations than a news/opinion site like Breitbart that employs professional reporters, editors, and critics, and RS depends on context. Here both sources are acceptable because we're merely covering attributed, quoted opinions. VictorD7 (talk) 20:13, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Breitbart is no more "QS" than Salon, the Daily Kos, or the HuffPo bloggers personally attacking D'Souza on a sensitive legal topic are. The RFC is pertinent here in rejecting dunk's argument because it found Breitbart RS for its film review here on the basis of it being an attributed opinion. scoobydunk incorrectly stated above that no one had engaged him on his policy argument. I certainly did extensively, refuting it (he tellingly dodged the question about whether his reasoning would also apply to the section's other sources, gutting Wikipedia review/opinion sections in general, repeatedly insisting that his only focus was on trying to get Breitbart removed), and when he pushed the RFC closer on his talk page the editor replied, "The bottom line here is that it's my role as closer to assess community opinion. In this case, a clear majority of the community did not follow your interpretation of QS." It would be an extreme NPOV violation to allow political commentary from a hodgepodge of leftist sites but prohibit it from the internet's most prominent conservative one, this particular piece from a notable best selling author with his own Wikipedia page at that, and there is no compelling, rational basis for doing so. VictorD7 (talk) 20:48, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm not disallowing opinions from reliable sources, but BB is not a reliable source. Furthermore, it's not my "interpretation" of QS, the policy says it explicitly. Furthermore, for the closer's assertion is incorrect, because the "majority" didn't address QS and ignored it outright. Also, in the RFC you didn't refute QS policy, you only made a snide comment that I misinterpreted QS which is absurd because I quoted it directly and that' requires no interpretation.Scoobydunk (talk) 14:57, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

The RFC explicitly rejected your claim by finding Breitbart RS for its opinions here. If it's RS for a film review there's no logical reason for it to not be RS for an attributed political opinion in the political commentary section. We're covering opinions in this section; we aren't using the sources in question for facts in Wikipedia's voice. Also, there was nothing "snide" about my rejection of your QS argument in the RFC. At the top of the RFC I also linked to the discussion (archived in Nov.) where you and I extensively discussed your QS argument, and where its contradictions and other flaws were exposed. Clearly the policy can be interpreted in multiple ways, as can most policies, which is why most people disagree with you, here, on the RS noticeboard, and even on the Verifiability talk page itself, where the editor most familiar with that page's construction over the years indicated my position was correct, and said QS wasn't supposed to be about automatically disqualifying sources or excluding opinions (in the comments I quoted for you in the discussion here). The problem is that your interpretation, if applied consistently, would gut review sections across the board and prohibit us from covering opinions currently covered (some of them of extreme historical relevance) throughout countless articles. Your failure to answer my repeated questioning about your stance on the section's other sources is likely a major reason why your arguments have fallen flat. Now you're reduced to insisting the RFC closer was incorrect. The closer was correct, because your QS argument failed to persuade the community, and Breitbart was deemed RS here (at least) because we're attributing its quoted opinions in the appropriate section. VictorD7 (talk) 19:29, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

There weren't contradictions, you merely engaged in multiple logical fallacies in the forms of red herring arguments and false equivalencies. You just did it again literally 2 posts up. Furthermore, my arguments weren't addressed or refuted in the RFC, they were ignored. Also, your interpretation about what others have said have proven to be incorrect. You've misinterpreted me on multiple occasions and also misunderstood TFD when you admitted you were confused about his position. I debunked your findings from forumshopping multiple talk pages as well. I never said that being a QS made a source automatically disqualified. As a matter of fact, I explained multiple times how WP:QS allows a questionable source to be used a reliable source for its own content on articles/topics about itself. I also explained that it can be used in such a way because it would be acting as a primary source for its own opinions. However, as WP:QS and WP:Aboutself clearly state, these sources can not be used to make claims about third parties and should only be used on topics/articles about themselves. There is no interpretation there, that's explicit WP policy that's reinforced and upheld across multiple WP pages. Also, the closer admitted to ignoring policies relevant to the RFC and demonstrated a number of times that they didn't understand the scope of the RFC which included a question about it being allowable. But that's a completely different subject. The fact of the matter is, consensus can not override policy and the policy is very clear about how and where questionable sources can be used.Scoobydunk (talk) 10:10, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Everything you asserted about me and my commentary in your post above is false, and you haven't "debunked" anything I've ever said. Since you failed to provide any specifics, I'll leave it to honest third party observers to read our exchanges and judge for themselves. Even if one accepted your interpretation of sourcing policy, the RFC explicitly concluded Breitbart was RS here for its attributed opinions about others, meaning it's not QS. You've certainly done little to argue that it is questionable, other than repeatedly asserting it is, and claiming that hosting ads (as does every media outlet used) somehow gives it a conflict of interest (you only mentioned FNC ads, which have nothing to do with this movie). You ignored my posts explaining to you why that's not true. The only QS criteria we can agree on Breitbart meeting is the heavy reliance on opinion, but that sentence starts with "Such sources include..", and, as someone observed on the Verifiability talk page, doesn't necessarily mean all such sources are QS (inclusion isn't necessarily comprehensive). If they were, then most of the sources currently used in the section would be QS, especially those that rely heavily or entirely on personal opinion like Kos, Salon, The Atlantic, Media Matters, etc.. In fact Wikipedia film reception sections are typically filled with heavily opinionated sources, which is a hazard of covering opinions, and countless articles would have to be substantially altered to fit with your interpretation.

Regarding your QS interpretation, you also mischaracterized what policy actually says, despite being corrected repeatedly (in the past you literally misquoted it). It says "especially in articles about themselves", not "only". The word "topic" doesn't appear in either section you cite. It states that questionable sources can be used for "material on themselves". It's certainly not only possible but extremely reasonable to interpret an attributed quote capturing the source's own opinion as material on itself. In that case we aren't using the source to support facts in Wikipedia's voice, but rather we're directly covering a source's opinion as material in its own right (the "topic" here being political commentary). You say that the section doesn't explicitly mention quotes as an exception, but it doesn't state that it's referring to quotes either, nor does it clearly define "material on themselves". Context guides us. The page is Verifiability, the focus of which is making sure that the sources used can be trusted to support the material they're supporting. Content decisions, by contrast, are properly guided by factors elsewhere like NPOV and DUE. Note that quotations are mentioned in a couple of places in the Verifiability page's first few paragraphs (intro and first section), where they're lumped in with other "material" and the concern is making sure they're properly sourced, not whether the view contained within the quote is appropriate. You would have an easier time making a sourcing argument against Breitbart for quoting someone else, like a leftist (though I'd still disagree with you), than claiming that Breitbart isn't RS for its own opinion.

In a vacuum is there room for differing interpretations of QS and some other Wikipedia policies? Sure. That's true even with laws or rules written entirely by one person or a small group with a shared agenda, much less ones constructed gradually by many over time in Wiki fashion. But my interpretation is more reasonable because it better fits the context of the page's primary purpose, and consistently applying it wouldn't require us to substantially alter countless articles, including this one. By contrast, slavishly following the alternative interpretation as a perceived technicality would prevent us from covering noteworthy opinions in sections ranging from film reviews to political commentary to the views of historical figures. Selectively applying it would constitute a gross and unacceptable NPOV violation. More saliently, the community has already rejected your interpretation. VictorD7 (talk) 21:46, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

My claims are not false and I've explained precisely how you've engaged in multiple red herring arguments by making false equivalencies. Furthermore, I don't interpret WP:QS, I quote it directly. In the RFC my position wasn't rejected, it was ignored, which are 2 completely different things. The Supreme Court ignores cases all the time, that doesn't mean it rejected a position or previous ruling in the case it ignored. Furthermore, I haven't "misquoted" WP:QS sine quoting is literally a matter of copying and pasting. WP:QS says "Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves". Is this movie/article about Shapiro or his article from Breitbart.com? NOPE. That's not a policy interpretation, that's literally what the policy says. Now, I have said "topics" because that would be synonymous with "material" but if you want to take the policy literally, then we can just limit the inclusion of questionable source to "articles about themselves," and then the inclusion of Shapior's quote would certainly not apply here. Everything you did above with discussion what "especially" meant and all that nonsense, is what actually qualifies as interpretation. WP:QS says they "SHOULD ONLY" be used as sources of material about themselves and this film/WP article about this film are not materials about Shapiro, Breitbart.com, or his article. The RFC didn't address this AT ALL and the "consensus" of the RFC can not bypass WP policy.Scoobydunk (talk) 09:34, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Everything you asserted about me here is false again. I even quoted where the closer (the SCOTUS opinion writer in your analogy) explicitly told you that the community had rejected your QS argument. In what universe would interpreting "especially in articles about themselves" "literally" (your word) mean only articles about themselves? Again, you and I literally disagree about what precisely "material on themselves" includes, so yes, interpretation is involved. Regarding the RFC, explicitly finding that Breitbart is reliable for its own film review here (that's contentious material about others) is logically a rejection of your argument (which was addressed by me and others), as the closer correctly concluded. You opposed the film review's inclusion based on the same flawed rationale you're using here, and there's no meaningful difference between the cases. As explained before, the interpretation of the community here is superior to yours because, unlike yours, a consistent application of ours wouldn't require most of this section's sources to be purged, wouldn't cause countless articles to be gutted, and wouldn't prohibit editors from covering historically important and other noteworthy opinions. VictorD7 (talk) 18:57, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Scoobydunk, per WP:QS, are you considering Breitbart.com to be either "extremist" or "promotional"? Is it the political slant itself or something else? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:39, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

"Questionable sources are those that have a poor reputation for checking the facts, lack meaningful editorial oversight, or have an apparent conflict of interest. Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely considered by other sources to be extremist or promotional, or that rely heavily on unsubstantiated gossip, rumor or personal opinion." I've argued that Breitbart.com is a questionable source for nearly all of those aspects. It has a poor reputation for fact checking and has an apparent conflict of interest. It can be considered promotional towards Fox news since it runs advertisements for Fox and uses multiple fox news polls in their articles. I do believe it is considered extremist and it relies HEAVILY on personal opinion. There are multiple aspects as to why it's considered a questionable source.Scoobydunk (talk) 14:57, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is arguing to treat the commentary as truth. We are attributing the statement so it is clear where it comes from, a conservative source. The same is done in the article with Daily Kos. We could add modifiers to all sources that mention a political slant in their respective Wikipedia articles. Being politically slanted is not grounds for excluding the opinion. Commentary is rarely objective, hence the need for attribution. Per WP:YESPOV, we're not trying to describe opinions as facts, we're reporting opinions. Per WP:DUE, for this political (not scientific or historical) topic, there is strong liberal and conservative bases, so including such commentary is warranted and should also be folded per WP:STRUCTURE. I'm looking for more commentary about the political slant of reviews as they apply to this film. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 15:23, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Erik, please: In this thread, are not discussing Daily Kos or anything other than the a particular bit of text sourced to Breitbart. Policy clearly does not provide a safe harbor for WP text to present derogation merely because it such derogation is called opinion. SPECIFICO talk 16:27, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

If we are focusing strictly on this passage, a conservative commentator is saying that the mainstream film critics have a liberal slant in their reviews. Are we concerned about this because of BLP concerns, or undue weight, or both? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 16:38, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Erik, treating the commentary as "truth" has nothing to do with it. There is nothing in the QS policies that make a distinction between opinions or factual statements or statements made in WP voice. The policies regarding questionable source are clearly defined and they CAN NOT make claims, especially contentious claims, about third parties. That's it, end of argument. This is further reinforced on nearly every other policy that has been cited so far, that explicitly restrict the inclusion of questionable sources. WP:Biased only applies to reliable sources and you've yet to refute that. That's directly inline with what WP:QS and WP:AboutSelf say. WP:BLP also limits it's application to reliable sources and specifically says to remove material from sources that are not reliable, poorly sourced, or are quesitonable/self published. There is no inconsistency or ambiguity with how these policies are applied. They apply to opinions and statements from sources considered reliable, and they do not apply to sources that are questionable. Every time I quote how the policies explicitly state this, it gets ignored by editors trying to include opinions from questionable sources.Scoobydunk (talk) 09:49, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Scoobydunk, you stated above, "[Breitbart] has a poor reputation for fact checking and has an apparent conflict of interest. It can be considered promotional towards Fox news since it runs advertisements for Fox and uses multiple fox news polls in their articles. I do believe it is considered extremist and it relies HEAVILY on personal opinion." We know that reliable sources can be biased, so a relationship to Fox does not matter, since this is unsurprisingly a conservative outlet. However, beyond having a conservative bias, why do you think it has a poor reputation for fact checking? I just used a Breitbart reference to provide some details in "Production". Is where it filmed questionable? How is the website more "extremist" than National Review? I'm not seeing a distinction between these conservative outlets. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 12:20, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Reliable sources can be biased, but that is a completely different issue than a blatant conflict of interest which is outlined on WP:QS. So WP:Biased doesn't excuse or absolve things from being identified as having a conflict of interest. The "extremist" claim in WP:QS isn't up to editors discretion but up to other sources that consider the outlet to be extremist. So your inability to differentiate its extremism is irrelevant. If you want to open up a noticeboard discussion about BB being a questionable source, then feel free and I'll happily post everything relevant. However, it should be noted that this has been discussed multiple times before and Breitbart.com is not considered a reliable source. You also seemed to overlook the part about it being heavily reliant on opinion pieces.Scoobydunk (talk) 09:04, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Of course RS is context specific, but I haven't seen any noticeboard discussion conclude that Breitbart "is not a reliable source". Certainly the recent round of such discussions have found it RS. VictorD7 (talk) 18:57, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Except the RFC explicitly found Breitbart RS here, for its attributed opinions about others, so that's a settled issue. Your "QS" argument has been rejected for multiple reasons. Perhaps you should move on to challenging sources that haven't been approved as RS here via RFC, like the entirely opinionated Salon, Kos, Media Matters, etc.. I'd disagree with you there too if you applied the same type of QS argument, but at least it would advance the discussion from the dead horse. VictorD7 (talk) 20:36, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

No, the RFC found BB to be a reliable source for its own opinions. This didn't even need an RFC because WP:QS and WP:Aboutself already say that questionable sources should only be used as reliable sources in ARTICLES/TOPICS about themselves. This wasn't covered or addressed in the RFC nor in the RFC closing consensus statement. Yes, you can use a BB article to act as a reliable primary source for something that Shapiro said, but then it would only have relevance on an article about Shapiro or Breitbart.com. This does not allow it to be used on other articles that aren't about the source in question and those policies explicitly say that those sources can not make contentious claims about others. The RFC didn't address any of this and it wouldn't matter because an RFC consensus can't override the policies that strictly prohibit using a questionable source like BB.com from making contentious claims about others.Scoobydunk (talk) 09:04, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Wrong. The RFC explicitly asked if Breitbart was RS for its own film review to be placed in this article, not an article about itself. The consensus was "yes", because Breitbart is reliable for its own attributed opinions, even if they're about others and arguably contentious, as film reviews inherently are. The RFC closer specifically responded to you to say that your QS argument had been rejected. VictorD7 (talk) 18:57, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

It's not wrong and the "consensus" and the closer can not override WP policies regarding questionable sources. You can not choose to simply ignore policies when it benefits your position. Just because you choose to ignore an applicable policy, doesn't mean that policy goes away. Breitbart.com is a questionable source and its usage is clearly limited by WP:QS. You and the closer have admitted to ignoring relevant policies and, unfortunately, that's not how consensus is determined.Scoobydunk (talk) 08:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I've "admitted" no such thing (neither did the closer from what I've seen), and I've proved that assertion wrong with quotes and links. It's getting to the point where virtually every sentence you type is false, which is extremely disruptive. VictorD7 (talk) 20:39, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

You're the one typing the falsities and you have been doing it since before I entered this dispute resolution.Scoobydunk (talk) 07:06, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

We'll have to agree to disagree on that, and let honest observers decide. I'll add that between us I'm the one who actually posts evidence. VictorD7 (talk) 22:17, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Every news outlet runs ads (even blogs like Salon.com do). It would be absurd to single out one and claim it has a "conflict of interest" simply because it runs ads. The COI described in policy is contextual (as is QS in general, per long time Verifiability policy page editor BlueBoar), and has to do with a reporter covering a particular story where he or she has a personal financial and/or familial conflict of interest. Biased sources are explicitly allowed even for news coverage, and certainly for attributed opinion coverage. Even if Breitbart was QS, which it's not, that wouldn't prohibit us from merely covering its opinions where appropriate, as such opinions would constitute "information about" itself. VictorD7 (talk) 19:42, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Gamaliel says "numerous" editors are objecting to the Shapiro material. Who are they? Presumably Gamaliel – who considers Breitbart contemptible, and Scoopydunk – who (unsuccessfully) brought up the QS issue in the RFC and in the closure review. I'm not sure about Specifico – who makes comments about what the issue is or is not, but does not seem (in my reading) to discuss policy or guidelines. TFD simply says the piece is not noteworthy, but does not present policy or guideline rationale. On the other hand, we have VictorD7, Erik, Collect, Obsidi, and myself who favor (or who do not object to) adding this WP:NOTEWORTHY material. The arguments about BLP and UNDUE have been addressed. The argument about QS was brought up in the RFC and settled. So, it seems to me that the NOTVOTE tally comes up in favor of inclusion. – S. Rich (talk) 04:55, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm counting myself, User:Scoobydunk, User:The Four Deuces, and User:SPECIFICO as against. Gamaliel (talk) 05:10, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I see. The count is two definite against !votes, supported by two Mugwump#Origin_of_the_terms (no offense intended) !votes. Your !vote is weakened by IDONTLIKEIT. Scoobydunk's is weakened by the fact that the QS issue was resolved. My !vote is a ILIKEIT vote; however, at the same time, I have addressed the QS & BLP concerns. – S. Rich (talk) 05:29, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Srich, why cite 'not a vote' and then get into a discussion of vote counts?" Your ad hominem is particularly puzzling, in light of your earlier remarks above in this thread. There's clearly not consensus at this point. SPECIFICO talk 15:19, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Since the segment stood without revert for a month, consensus is required to remove it. If there's a lack of consensus the status quo reigns, and clearly there's no consensus for removing it. VictorD7 (talk) 04:25, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

You're still on this IDONTLIKEIT bullshit? No matter how many times policy is cited in objections? At this point you're just being a troll. Gamaliel (talk) 17:29, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Gamaliel, you said that you did not think Daily Kos should be included in the article either. You said if it is being used, then the same relaxed standard should be used for Breitbart as well. Both are basically stridently political outlets, but each outlet's politics are prevalent in the United States, and I think including their commentary meets the due-weight standard. At the same time, I've added commentary from other sources that either have print-publication roots or are nominally nonpartisan or both. So Daily Kos and Breitbart are increasingly just a part of the general field of commentary. If it is a question of the content, referring to film critics as politically biased, we could link to Media bias in the United States#Liberal bias to reflect the roots of Shapiro's particular commentary. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 18:20, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that we're elevating non-notable comments from fringe political outlets from both sides to significant commentary. There is plenty of commentary out there about the movie, from mainstream film critics and mainstream political commentators and news outlets, for our purposes, both apolitical and representing all relevant political viewpoints. We should not give undue weight to insignificant, extremely problematic commentary because a few editors with ideological agendas are willing to argue about it at length. Gamaliel (talk) 18:30, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree about mainstream commentary, which is why I've referenced U.S. News & World Report, National Journal, and The Guardian in the article body. I plan to add Forbes soon. I don't think that means commentary from the political outlets should be excluded entirely, though. There is not a political consensus like there can be a scientific consensus or a historical consensus. We know per WP:BIASED, "Reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject." Liberal and conservative viewpoints are both prevalent in the U.S. so it is not unreasonable to reference them, just that we should not detail them as much as the mainstream references. I think that meets the balancing-aspect of addressing NPOV concerns. To reference socialist or libertarian viewpoints would be more in the fringe territory, I think. I'll continue adding whatever other commentary I can find, but I think the more we add, the less prevalent the liberal/conservative commentaries will be in the article body. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 19:01, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

I do not object to those sources because they are political, I object to them because they are insignificant fringe sources which are extremely problematic for us to use because of the numerous specific issues raised above. Gamaliel (talk) 19:19, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

What are the specific issues again? (Not trying to be pedantic, just trying to nail down the underlying arguments.) And are you applying WP:FRINGE here? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 19:29, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Ben Shapiro is literally "notable" in the Wikipedia sense, meaning he rates his own article, unlike almost everyone else quoted here. When a best selling author who's an editor of the internet's most prominent conservative news/opinion site writes an entire article about the reception to a movie, it's noteworthy, even without the recent expansion of the section. With the expansion, it would be criminal for us to exclude it. VictorD7 (talk) 04:17, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

"Criminal" -- really? Please cite the statute. SPECIFICO talk 04:25, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

It's an expression meaning extremely wrong or inappropriate. Obviously in this context it doesn't literally refer to criminal prosecution. VictorD7 (talk) 04:31, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Please use words to refer to their clear English meanings and refrain from inflammatory characterizations of other editors' views. SPECIFICO talk 04:42, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Please learn to utilize context clues and refrain from wasting other editors' time. VictorD7 (talk) 07:41, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Referencing Breitbart.com

I'd like to start a new thread since we have quite a wall of text above. The disputed source is Breitbart.com, and there are currently four different uses of this source in the article: (1) Production details from filmmaker interview with Kevin Williams, (2) Film review by Christian Toto, (3) political commentary by Kate O'Hare, and (4) criticism of film reviews by editor Ben Shapiro. (This is among dozens of mostly mainstream sources, aside from National Review, Daily Kos, and a couple of others.) The first three are being referenced in the article body currently. #2 was discussed in an RFC, and the determination was that it could be used. While #4 has been debated, I am not sure if anyone takes issue with #3. Based on my inquiries above, Gamaliel says that Breitbart.com is a "fringe political outlet" (in addition to Daily Kos) and that we should avoid "undue weight to insignificant, extremely problematic commentary". Scoobydunk says Breitbart.com is a questionable source per WP:QS (there is also WP:QUESTIONABLE) and that the RFC in support of referencing the review does not mean that other references from Breitbart.com should be used.

However, I think that WP:BIASED should be taken into consideration: "Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. While a source may be biased, it may be reliable in the specific context." This is backed by WP:RSOPINION, "Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact without an inline qualifier." I feel like we have an abundant amount of secondary mainstream sources that the use of political sources will be relatively marginal and satisfy the due-weight standards that Gamaliel was concerned about. Across the board, we attribute all statements and link to the respective publications as well. In the matter of the source being questionable, WP:QUESTIONABLE says, "Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, that are promotional in nature, or which rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions." Is Breitbart.com more extremist than National Review? U.S. conservatism is prevalent enough that conservative opinions about a work are warranted in a limited sense, per WP:DUE. It seems that WP:QS is best applied to broad topics -- counterarguments to evolution, vaccinations, etc. This topic of the film is very narrow in comparison.

To focus on #4, it appears that Ben Shapiro and his commentary has been scrutinized in mainstream media, and he has written articles for National Review as seen here. (I am assuming nobody has a problem with National Review since it is a circulated print publication.) I continue to add more content and more sources to the article, so it is hardly the same as it was when this dispute first started; even more now, it fits the balance of opinions -- mostly mainstream, with explicitly liberal and conservative ones in the margins. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 15:23, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

In addition, this is being discussed at WP:RS/N#Breitbart again and WP:BLP/N#America: Imagine the World Without Her, for those interested. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 15:30, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you say, except for differentiating between "political" and "mainstream". Every source in the article has some kind of bias, and every opinion piece written about this movie has an identifiable political slant. The "extremist" thing is silly. Breitbart is well within the conservative mainstream, and indeed is the highest trafficked conservative news/opinion site. Gallup polling has consistently shown over the years that about twice as many Americans identify as "conservative" as "liberal" (roughly 40%-20%), so it would be absurd to dismiss conservatism itself as "fringe". If anything, Breitbart is less fringe than far left outlets like Kos, Salon, and Media Matters. If one is trying to define a "fringe" view as something other than not having widespread popular following (which would be odd in a political context; this isn't a scientific issue), there's still the question of why allegedly being "fringe" would even matter to our coverage of such opinions if the views are directly pertinent to this article, which they clearly are since it's a conservative documentary.

If our task is to cover the political reception to a film, then we can't ignore the elephant in the room (so to speak). The noteworthy political views should all be covered with attribution. It's especially silly when only one Breitbart inclusion is being singled out by an editor for removal. Does he not oppose the others? VictorD7 (talk) 20:24, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Page is now protected for two weeks. I suggest that we do a new RFC on this particular matter to finalize this debate. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 22:47, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I wonder whether this makes sense in view of the recent posting of a thread at RSN. There's no rush about this, so why not let the matter play out there before starting another thread in parallel? SPECIFICO talk 23:46, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

I think the necessary difference is that the new RFC will have an explicit conclusion. I don't think an RSN discussion does that; it is still to easy to meander in dissatisfaction of whatever answers are given there. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 04:30, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

We shouldn't have to do another RFC or noticeboard discussion. The old RFC settled the sourcing issue. Yes, Breitbart is RS for its own writers' opinions. This is just a case of a few editors who didn't like the outcome ignoring it and edit warring without anything resembling a cogent, legitimate rationale. VictorD7 (talk) 06:03, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Again, WP:Biased only applies to reliable sources and doesn't apply to questionable source. You seemed to miss from your quoting of WP:Biased "When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking." Multiple other noticeboard discussions about Breitbart.com have concluded that it is not a reliable source for those very same reasons and others. WP:RSopinion speaks to sources that can be considered reliable for their author's opinion, which would make them a primary source for their author's opinion. The primary source for a Shaprio quote has no relevance to this article about a film. The only primary sources relevant to this article would be sources directly written by the director, the script, or things of that nature. Yes, just about anything can be used as a reliable primary source, that doesn't mean it's reliable for inclusion into articles that aren't about that specific source or its author. That's part of the reason why we don't take tweets from Ken Hamm and include them on the article about Global Climate Change.

Lastly, as per WP:Questionable "Questionable sources are generally unsuitable for citing contentious claims about third parties, which includes claims against institutions, persons living or dead, as well as more ill-defined entities. The proper uses of a questionable source are very limited." This specifically says that even when citing a questionable source, it is unsuitable for making contentious claims about third parties and more ill-defined entities. The entities don't have to be well defined, they can be ill-defined and Shapiro's criticisms of leftist critics would be included as ill-defined third parties/entities. Furthermore, it says that the use of questionable sources are very limited. This is the opposite of trying to include questionable sources wherever you want so long as you attribute it. That wouldn't be very limited at all. Luckily, multiple policies clearly express how questionable source are limited and how they can be used. They should only be used in articles about themselves or authors and can't be used to make contentious claims about others. Scoobydunk (talk) 09:21, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Your quote from Biased doesn't mention attributed quotes, so if one is using such a source to support statements in Wikipedia's voice of course one should consider whether it meets the normal requirements like editorial control and fact checking. WP:RSOPINION is the only section you cite that explicitly mentions attribution, stating: "Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact without an inline qualifier like "(Author) says...". A prime example of this is opinion pieces in mainstream newspapers. When using them, it is better to explicitly attribute such material in the text to the author to make it clear to the reader that they are reading an opinion." WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV states that, "Biased statements of opinion can be presented only with attribution. For instance, "John Doe is the best baseball player" expresses an opinion and cannot be asserted in Wikipedia as if it were a fact. It can be included as a factual statement about the opinion: "John Doe's baseball skills have been praised by baseball insiders such as Al Kaline and Joe Torre." Opinions must still be verifiable and appropriately cited." Multiple policy sections make it clear that attributed, quoted opinions have different standards for inclusion than facts presented in Wikipedia's voice. Indeed such an inclusion is described as a factual statement "about" the opinion, as opposed to the opinion's contents being presented as facts, the former making inclusion okay.

The Quotations section, just a couple of paragraphs above WP:RSOPINION, reads, "To ensure accuracy, the text of quoted material is best taken from (and cited to) the original source being quoted. If this is not possible, then the text may be taken from a reliable secondary source (ideally one that includes a citation to the original). No matter where you take the quoted text from, it is important to make clear the actual source of the text, as it appears in the article.

Partisan secondary sources should be viewed with suspicion as they may misquote or quote out of context. In such cases, look for neutral corroboration from another source.''" Policy goes so far as to say that quotes should ideally be cited to the original source being quoted, and only to a "reliable secondary source" as a last resort if the former isn't possible (but preferably one that at least includes a citation to the original). Unless one's premise is that only the opinions of people whose work would normally be considered RS for general fact support can have their opinions quoted in Wikipedia, which excludes countless historical figures, critics, and pundits currently quoted throughout appropriate Wikipedia sections, then sources not normally considered RS for general fact support (e.g. film critics, historical works like Hitler's Mein Kampf or Marx's Communist Manifesto that could be relevant to a multitude of historical articles, the Bible, a press release by a politician or famous actor on the topic in question, an expert professor's blog, high profile political pundits commenting on a topic where coverage of opinionated reaction is deemed appropriate) are being endorsed as sources for quotes when coverage of such quotes is appropriate (as governed by NPOV and DUE). As in the other sections, policy recognizes a difference between the sources usable for general fact support (in Wikipedia's voice) and those usable for attributed opinions, with the concern being the "accuracy" of such opinions' transmission, not the nature of the views themselves.

Your Ken Hamm example fails because such inclusion decisions are properly controlled by WP:NPOV and due weight, not Verifiability. There's no need to invoke the latter. The RFC rejected your QS argument, concluding that Breitbart is RS for its own film review (inherently contentious commentary about others) in this article (not one about Breitbart). If we're covering political opinions, then we should cover political opinions. VictorD7 (talk) 19:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

The Ken Hamm example doesn't fail because the logically fallacious arguments you and others are presenting would equally apply to adding Ken Hamm's opinion in science based articles so long as it was quoted and attributed to him. Again, WP:Biased only applies to sources that are already considered reliable and the same goes for WP:RSOPINION. HINT!!! The "RS" in "RSOPINION" stands for "reliable source", meaning that RS:Opinion applies to reliable sources, not questionable ones. Again, stop trying to ignore the WP policies by pretending your RFC did anything to address WP:QS. It didn't and it wouldn't matter if it did because "consensus" doesn't override WP policy. Breitbart.com is a questionable source and its content is explicitly and specifically limited by WP policy.Scoobydunk (talk) 08:47, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

No, it's called WP:RSOPINION because it discusses opinion on the RS page, even explaining that sources not usually considered "reliable" can be used with attribution (as I just quoted; the opposite of your characterization here). Your assertions are growing increasingly desperate and hysterical. I'll add that another section on the same page discussing attributed quotes, WP:NEWSORG states that, "When taking information from opinion content, the identity of the author may help determine reliability. The opinions of specialists and recognized experts are more likely to be reliable and to reflect a significant viewpoint.[6] If the statement is not authoritative, attribute the opinion to the author in the text of the article and do not represent it as fact." This implies that in some cases expert material from an op ed can be used to support statements of fact, but even non-experts can be cited with proper attribution. Of course Shapiro is an expert when it comes to political commentary and media analysis, but yet another example of different standards applying when attribution is used is still worth noting.

The RFC did reject your QS argument in finding Breitbart reliable for its own attributed opinions on others in this article (the closer directly told you as much), and there has never been a consensus finding Breitbart QS anyway, your flawed interpretation aside.

And no, as I've already explained and you've ignored, the Ken Hamm analogy fails because the inclusion of such content is properly controlled by WP:NPOV and due weight. If someone's scientific views are outside the mainstream then sourcing policy isn't required to exclude them from articles simply presenting the mainstream view, rather than the controversy. In fact WP:NPOV, due weight, and common sense editorial judgment have proved sufficient to keep countless opinionated quotes from non "QS" sources from inappropriately littering articles, something you certainly can't credit QS policy for. The same policies, guidelines, and judgement are sufficient in your Hamm scenario. Of course there are numerous science related and other types of articles where Hamm's comments might be appropriate, especially if they're covering the controversies involved, further underscoring how your erroneous QS interpretation would cripple Wikipedia. And, of course, your analogy also fails because Shapiro is firmly in the mainstream of prominent political commentators, and isn't fringe. VictorD7 (talk) 20:29, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

You quote WP:NEWSORG and completely ignore the part where it cites WP:EXCEPTIONAL that says exceptional claims should have multiple high quality sources supporting them, shouldn't contradict the prevailing view within the relevant community, and shouldn't have a conflict of interest. A person giving a movie review that criticizes other movie reviewers is a conflict of interest as described by the citation in WP:QS. All of these requirements also disqualify the use of Breitbart.com and Shapiro's quote since it's not a high quality source, doesn't have multiple other high quality sources supporting it, is a conflict of interest, and rails against the prevailing view of the high regard that necessitates the existence and profession of film critics. Furthermore, we already know that a questionable source can be used to reliably quote the opinions of the author. However, this is still restricted to the rules of WP:QS and WP:Questionable that specifically say that " Questionable sources are generally unsuitable for citing contentious claims about third parties, which includes claims against institutions, persons living or dead, as well as more ill-defined entities. The proper uses of a questionable source are very limited." Sorry, but your Shapiro quote violates multiple WP policies and NOTHING you've quoted addresses the numerous policies that such a quote violates. Also, regarding Kenn Hamm, all of those policies you cite also apply to Breitbart.com and Shapiro....as well as WP:QS, WP:Questionable, and WP:Aboutself. There are multiple policies that prohibit the use of both and all of those policies equally apply to both. Scoobydunk (talk) 10:54, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

No, I quoted the portions that clearly dealt with attributed opinions, and refuted your position. The only portion of WP:EXCEPTIONAL that explicitly deals with attributed opinions, rather than facts or claims in Wikipedia's voice, is the bullet point, "reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, or against an interest they had previously defended". In that case the concern is accurately reporting the person's statement, not necessarily that person's claim itself being authoritative or credible. That treatment further supports my argument. I'll add that, regardless, no one has even presented a view contradicting Shapiro's, much less proof establishing that the opposing view is "prevailing within the relevant community" (which would be political pundits, btw). Certainly no evidence of "conflict of interest" has been presented, and it's unclear whether that would matter with an attributed opinion since we've quoted some involved with making the film (presumably we should just disclose the COI if Shapiro helped make the film, which he didn't). Also, Breitbart is a generally higher quality source and more prominent source than most of the others currently used for the section's opinions, which is obviously why you keep refusing to answer whether you consider the other sources, including the blogs your added, "QS". At least you're finally backpedaling from the notion that your interpretation of QS is necessary to prevent articles from being indiscriminately flooded with quotes, though the rest of your repetitive claims are nonsense that has already been debunked. VictorD7 (talk) 21:15, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

WP:Exceptional speaks entirely to "statements" and "claims" and says nothing about whether those statements/claims are made in WP's voice. This is a poor attempt of you trying to exclude opinions from policies that clearly address all claims and statements regardless of whether they are made as a matter of fact or opinion. It also doesn't exclude "attributed opinions" and covers anything in the form of a "statement" or "claim". WP:QS also addresses contentious "claims" made about others and doesn't limit this to WP voice. Also, the prevailing view is the whole reason the profession of film critic even exists. They generally considered reliable and capable of evaluating films, which is why they are oft quoted and referenced. To have a single person try and undermine the credibility of an entire institution is laughable and clearly goes against the prevailing view regarding the role critics play in society, their capability, and their professionalism. However, one doesn't even have to consider the logical implications implicit with the profession to come to this conclusion as it's supported by peer reviewed scholarly journals. According to Dean Keith Simonton in his Cinematic success criteria and their predictors: The art and business of the film industry "the opinions of film critics regarding the relative merit of various films correlate positively with the views of consumers" and "critical evaluations appear to be valid as well as reliable." So, movie critic reviews are generally considered reliable and valid and Shapiro's comments about them being "absurd" and "unable to separate their artistic sensibilities from their political ones," fly in the face of the general expectations and studies regarding critics' ability to reliably evaluate films. Oh, I'm not backtracking, there are just numerous policies that prevent the usage of questionable source in the manner in which you're trying to use it. Just because I cite a few other policies, doesn't mean I'm backing away from my original argument.Scoobydunk (talk) 11:13, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Wrong. As I just quoted, part of WP:EXCEPTIONAL does deal with whether statements/claims are made in Wikipedia's voice; particularly the one dealing with "reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character...". That clearly refers to attributed statements (as opposed to statements or claims of fact in Wikipedia's voice, which is the norm), and, again, the concern is that the statement was really made by the person, not its accuracy. Again, your interpretation of policy (which trumps guidelines), if honestly and consistently applied, would require us to label virtually every source used in these sections "QS". Of course I, not you, have been quoting all the sections that do focus on quoted/attributed opinions, and your response on that score has been weak to nonexistent. Moving on, setting aside the absurdity of you trying to cite a "peer reviewed scholarly journal" here, people on your side in this debate have repeatedly stressed the disconnect between critics' and audiences' opinions. Of course there's some correlation. No one's denied that, so your argument is a straw man. But it's nowhere near a perfect correlation. Clearly there are many hugely successful films that are critically panned even in purely entertainment genres. Shapiro's quote dealt with the intersection of film and politics, and most movies aren't that political. That this one scored so high with audiences and so low with liberal critics adds enormous credence to his comments. Regardless of whether you agree with it or not, however, it's a major opinion that we must cover if we're covering political opinions at all. Remember, the "community" whose "prevailing view(s)" we're gauging aren't those of pro film critics, but rather political commentators. The pro critics have their own section all to themselves higher up. And Ben Shapiro is often quoted and referenced too, much more than most of the others quoted here. And you are backtracking away from your earlier claims that without QS articles would be flooded with opinion quotes. But don't worry, at least those clumsy steps are in the right direction. VictorD7 (talk) 07:49, 27 December 2014 (UTC)