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An editor has recently added Hungary as one of the Allied powers in the Soviet zone of influence. As far as I know, the there was no recognised government of Hungary which fought on the Allied side. A provisional government was appointed by the Soviet Union in the areas it occupied and some Hungarian volunteer units fought with the Soviet army, but more fought against both the Soviets and the Arrow Cross. This article is getting to the absurd point that all the main Axis powers are also portrayed as allied powers if one of the Allies appointed a puppet government on any part of its territory. One problem is that one of the cited sources is in Russian with no translation. Under policy, the relevant sections of foreign language sources should be translated into English so that English speaking editors can assess their reliability as sources. WP:NONENG.
@Opostylov Could you provide a translation of this Russian source? As far as I know, the provisional Hungarian government was established by the occupying Soviet power and didn't hold national elections until after the war.
@Aemilius Adolphin the provisional government was established in december 1944, and in january 1945 it signed an armistice with the ussr and the western allies (what means that it was at least de facto recognized) - you can read its text here. this provisional government was formed by the provisional parliament formed by the elections which were held in december 1944, so it was not just appointed, it was formed on a relatively democratic basis, its just that the elections were idirect and the party composition of the govt was agreed with moscow. from its behalf, the government of hungary promised to form 8 divisions allied with the ussr and began the mobilization of volunteers to the new army which was being created by the nkvd in pow camps; some companies of these volunteers and larger units and military engineering brigades were sent at the front, the largest unit was the Volunteer Regiment of Buda. hungarian government managed to form only 2 divisions of the promised 8, and they were sent at the front when germany signed the capitulation.
so it didnt have an actual big army, but it was recognized, and these small units were loyal to this government; since a czech battalion of the red army is enough to include czechoslovakia into the list of participants of the war in 1943, and since a de jure croatian regiment is enough to include croatia as a full participant on the eastern front, i dont see why units loyal to this (recognized) government are not enough to include hungaryOpostylov (talk) 11:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
also one of the sources i cited, "the hungarian royal army in ww2", is in english; i cant fully read it cuz google books doesnt allow me to but it seems that it describes more or less the same stuff as the book in russian Opostylov (talk) 11:59, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that there is a problem with the inclusion of other states as "Allies". I think this whole section on "Client and Occupied states" doesn't belong in this article because it is discussing things other than the Allies of WWII. I am aware that a provisional government was set up by the Soviet Union in Soviet occupied areas following partial "elections" in those areas. I am also aware that this provisional government signed an armistice with the Soviet Union. However, I am not aware that it signed the Declaration of the United Nations before the end of the war or fielded an army of its own. My understanding is that the Hungarian forces in the occupied areas were volunteers, POWS and conscripts and they served in the Soviet Army. My understanding is also that the Horthy government also signed an armistice with the Soviet Union in October 1944 and that many in the regular Hungarian army were still loyal to the former government and continued to fight into April 1945. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 11:59, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've read the English source. I will look up the other sources you mentioned. In the meantime how about we say, "Following elections in the Soviet occupied areas of Hungary, a Provisional National Government of Hungary [ru] was established in the Soviet-occupied city of Debrecen on December 22, 1944. The provisional government signed an armistice with the Soviet Union in January 1945 and began forming small military units to assist the USSR, the largest of which was the Volunteer Regiment of Buda. Following the Soviet occupation of Budapest in February 1945 and the collapse of the Iron Cross government in March, the Provisional National Government became the temporary semi-independent government of Hungary under the supervision of the Soviet Union. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 12:12, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"subordinate to the Soviet-dominated Allied Control Commision" would be correct i think
their relations are described in laszlo kontler's "A History of Hungary: Millennium in Central Europe" but he doesnt mention the 1944 elections Opostylov (talk) 12:15, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Basically this. Please stop this "because country X is included then country Y must be included" analysis, and go and look at whether the sources say that Hungary was a member of the Allies, when discussing the member countries of the Allies. If they don't then it wasn't. FOARP (talk) 08:54, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
PS. I've asked for the old article be be userfied/drafitied or soft-deleted so its history is visible. I very much intend to recreate it (but if it was very bad, I may just write up from scatch'; it should obviously not the just a fork of the US-UK part of what we have here, but discuss the concept of 'Western Allies' in juxtaposition to the USSR and the larger 'Allies of WW2' topic). I am really shocked several folks, whom I respect and believe to be pretty knowledgeable about WWII etc. made the strange claims that the topic is 'ambiguous' or 'interchangeable' with Allies of WW2. There are many papers or books discussing the differences between the Western Allies and the USSR (some more examples: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]...). For now, I'll ping participants of that AfD: @Shhhnotsoloud, @BD2412, @Peterkingiron, @Hugo999, @Srnec, @Nick-D, @4meter4
From having looked at the pre-deletion version of the article, I don't think that there's any worthwhile content to draw on. The article was just a couple of entirely unreferenced paras briefly describing who the western Allies were. This included some highly dubious claims (for instance, that Poland isn't usually considered part of the western Allies). I continue to think though that this is a very viable topic for a standalone article, so you might want to develop a replacement and have it approved via the articles for creation process. Nick-D (talk) 02:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I note that the phrase is used several times in this article, but never defined. Should at least be defined here as long as the redirect is pointing here. I don't know that there is enough to say that it would not be suitable to fit in this article. BD2412T03:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Nick-D Speaking as a Pole and someone roughly familiar with history of that era (although still just beginning my research into the topic of 'Western Allies'), I think it is not controversial to claim that Poland wasn't usually considered part of the Western Allies. Ref for that - lecture by Richard Overy (in Poland): [6], who talks about relation between Poland and the Western Allies. Norman Davies, likewise, talks about Western allies as separate: [7]. Or George Sanford[8]: While I cannot quickly find a good source enumerating (defining) Western Allies, I have never seen a source that would include Poland amongst them. All sources I can see are talking about Poland as an entity separate from the Western Allies (and obviously, other camps, i.e. USSR). And this is true for Polish soruces too. Leszek Moczulski[9], pl:Marek Ney-Krwawicz[10]. At most I think we could say that Poles would want to be part of the Western Allies - but never were (see also Western betrayal). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here04:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Western Allies" is a very common expression, but I don't think this means that it must be an encyclopedic topic. Does it have a meaning before July 1941? Only after December 1941? What would it mean between June 1940 and July 1941? Why no "Eastern Allies"? The problem is not that we cannot come up with good answers but that I don't see that historians have put much thought into such questions. But I will wait to see what article can be written. See Talk:Northern France for a similar situation. Srnec (talk) 17:41, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that the last element is correct. As the German Instrument of Surrender article notes, the German surrender on 7 May covered all its forces. The main issue was that the Soviets wanted the surrender to be to them and the wording be more explicit, so insisted on another surrender the next day which the Western Allies agreed with. Gernaby didn't separately surrender to the western Allies and USSR. Nick-D (talk) 06:57, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I am still inclined to think that it would be best to develop this content within the context of the larger Allies article until there is something more substantial to break out into a separate article. BD2412T18:27, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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