Talk:Alexander Tschugguel

Stealing vs. Removed

Tschugguel stole the statues from the church. Even Catholic publications have acknowledged this: [1], [2], and [3], for example. "Removing" implies that he had permission to take the statues, which he did not. He discarded property that did not belong to him.

From Oxford dicitonary, "stealing" is to "take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.". Tschugguel removed property that did not belong to him, and threw it into the river (i.e. no intention of returning it). That is stealing. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 20:17, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Whose property was it?Safebreaker (talk) 20:26, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Clearly not Tschugguel's. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 20:27, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Nobility Titels

As already pointed out in the deletion discussion, there are no nobilty titles in Austria.

https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10000036

Their use is illegal and this is not amended by admitting it with a reference note.

Given that the titels are non-existent (as they have no legal basis) there cannot be a valid source for them. I challenge you to prove otherwise or to delete them. On a more broader note, acceptance of fake royal titels is an act of political positioning in itself and as such unsuitable for the wikipedia. Would you accept if the article about the Queen referred to her as the queen of British America with a hidden note that today there exists some "United States of America" and they do not agree? Most certainly not. It is simply incorrect information.

A correct phrasing might be "is a decendent of a former royal family" or similar." as well as to discard the titles such as "Baron" and "von". The same applies to the Tschugguel family article, by the way.

Finally, it could potentially harm the person this article is about as yielding of former royal titles is punishable by 20 000 K or 6 months arrest as stated by § 2 of the law referenced above. So he would certainly agree with the changes. 2001:4BB8:2C8:854F:E873:F8F3:87A1:B542 (talk) 19:50, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

The fake nobility titles keep being restored without explanation. No one was able to provide a source or a reference for these claims and yet "the wikipedia" seems to collectively accept these. Given that the article is about a political person, the acceptance of "fake nobility" is a political act and questions the sovereignty of the Austrian State. This is completley inappropriate. Is there no oversight of such issues on the wikipedia? You are spreading false information.

Bonfineberer (talk) 15:42, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. There is no nobility in Austria. As he is an Austrian citizen there is no other version of his name. The fact that his family held a different status is mentioned. --Wo st 01 (talk | rate) 09:50, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Covid

What is the significance of a COVID-infection in this article? None, because he is not an outspoken Covid-denier. His medical record is of no interest, even if the person mad it public. This an NPOV-article about a person, not his instagram account. -- Wo st 01 (talk | rate) 14:03, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Back then it was notable as he opposed to the Covid-Measures of the Austrian Government, though he had been affected personally with treatment in the hospital. At this point (Summer 2020) this was rather unusual. I don't want to say, that it is worth to mention, but it wasn't normal. --147.161.169.80 (talk) 14:38, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Removal of content

• @Jordi: Please stop removing information from this article without giving proper reason. Your claims have not been backed and you are removing sourced information. Revert your edits and take the discussion here to reach a consensus. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 15:00, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@Jordi: I did not "okay" you removing sourced information from this article. Do not use my name in your edit summaries to justify your edits. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 19:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, seems I misunderstood your behaviour, I thought you had now read the German sources and talks on German WP and were convinced. As I said in my edit comment: There was no removal of sourced information, and you (should) know that by now. It was an unsourced hoax, there is no reliable source at all for the existence of an Austrian noble family named Tschugguel, and there is no source or hint that A.T. belongs to such a family. All the "sources" mentioned in the old versions of this article and the family article Tschugguel were obvious fakes.--Jordi (talk) 20:28, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Jordi: You just removed (now multiple times) information that is sourced. You deleted three citations [4][5], [6]. Please revert yourself and put these back in the article. You did not provide an adequate explanation for the removal of these sources. There was no consensus, as shown in the above conversation, where you never responded. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 20:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Trakking: I saw you made a reversion earlier. Can you help me explain this to them? -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 20:44, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

If the user keeps edit-warring against other people, while making false claims about the people involved simultaneously, we should write a warning in their personal Talk page. They need to follow the rules of Wikipedia. Trakking (talk) 21:01, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Willthacheerleader18, I already told you that there are no reliable sources which back the statements I deleted. I thought you understand German and can verify it yourself. I assume good faith in your case (not so in the case of @Trakking) and I trust in your knowledge as an expert for nobility cases. So I don't understand why you want to stick to the obvious false claims this article propagated. I understand you copied this stuff in 2020 from German Wikipedia without bad faith, thinking it was true and reliable and not entering into the details, but you have to admit that it was deleted for good reasons there because it turned out to be a fake fabricated by a SPA who based his articles on false sources.

The statements I deleted are:

• Alexander Tschugguel is a descendant of the Barons von Tschugguel zu Tramin, a Tyrolean family.
• The Tschugguels were raised from the rank of Ritter to the status of hereditary barons [Freiherr] by the House of Habsburg in 1705.

None of the three "sources" you mention are backing these statements.

• The cite from Österreichisches Adelslexikon (1822) does not mention the family Tschugguel, but the family Tschuegg. These are two distinct families which have nothing to do with each other, as shown on de:Diskussion:Tschugguel (Tschuegg was a family of knightly status from Tramin, Tschugguel is a family originally from Bolzano with burgher status only, they have different coats of arms and are not vinculated to each other.) The Adelslexikon states that in the year 1705 the Tschueggs were elevated to Ritter (knights) of the Empire, and in 1724 they gained also the knightly status of Habsburg hereditary lands. Neither the knighly Tschuegg family nor the civil Tschugguel family were ever made barons ("Freiherren").
• The cite from the Catholic newspaper Tagespost is a portrait article written by Marco Gallina, an Italian-German blogger (I personally know him) and contributor of this paper. He only mentions that A.T. supposedly comes from a former baronial family and says nothing further about the matter. He does not mention the year 1705 nor does he enter in any details. This is not a reliable source for the statements above. There are many people in the fan community of A.T. who call him a "baron" without solid evidence or further knowledge. The wikipedia articles were fabricated to support this urban legend.
• The third source you mention is a podcast from Taylor Marshall's blog. Taylor Marshall is the guy who financed and published A.T.'s Pachamama steal in Rome in 2019. In this interview from 2020 he speaks with A.T. about his Corona desease. I listened to the interview a few days ago, before I made my first edit in this article. A.T. mentions in the interview that his father is a doctor and other family members also are doctors. He does not say anything about his supposed noble descent. He also does not mention his fathers forename. I did not delete the information about A.T.'s father in this article.

Every user has the right to delete unsourced and obviously inaccurate content. If you want to restore this content, you have to present valid sources (which do not exist, as you should know). So my edit was ok an cannot be reverted according to the wikipedia rules. Initially, you seemed to accept that and I was glad about it, because you are an expert for noble families and should have easily understood my point. Now you seem to change your mind under the influence of a second user who has his own agenda. This is not a good idea I think. If you are serious you should help me, because my English is bad and I cannot defend my point very good against right-wing partisans. So please, consider what I said, thank you.--Jordi (talk) 22:33, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for arguing for your viewpoint. I will leave this topic for others to decide. But you need to learn that edit-warring is not appreciated by people on Wikipedia. Trakking (talk) 22:39, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Jordi: You have not followed Wikipedia policy, instead deciding to edit war with various editors and blank articles instead of tagging for insufficient sources or addressing your issues, and your proposed solutions, on article talk pages. I do understand German but it is not my job to go to German Wikipedia and find the conversations you keep mentioning. This is English Wikipedia, not German Wikipedia. Instead, you should have started those conversations here. You should assume good faith in @Trakking: as well, because they are simply holding you to Wikipedia standards. The statements you deleted include:

• "..remained Roman Catholic until Tschugguel's great-grandfather converted to Lutheranism." which was sourced here
• "Alexander's father, Dr. Walter Tschugguel, works as a physician in Vienna." which was sourced here
• "Tschugguel left the Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Austria and converted to Roman Catholicism at fifteen. which was sourced here
• "He is a member of the Traditionalist Catholic movement." which was sourced here
• "Tschugguel was married in 2019 in a wedding celebrated by Bishop Athanasius Schneider, the auxiliary of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Mary Most Holy in Astana, Kazakhstan." which was sourced here

None of the above statements, which you removed from the article have anything to do with claims of nobility. You even stated above that you knowingly removed sources that had nothing to do with claims of nobility (such as the source about his father's profession). Yet, in your edit summary you said "There was no removal of sourced information, and you know that. It was an unsourced hoax." Every editor has the right to bring issues to the article talk page to reach a consensus, not to blank pages and remove sources and sourced information. This isn't about whether the Tschugguel family is of noble descent or not, it is about your disregard for Wikipedia policies and standards. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 22:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

• Every editor has the right to delete unsourced information, if you want to restore it, you have to give sources.
• You copied the tale from German Wikipedia, so it is admissable to beg you to inform yourself there if you are informed that you involuntarily made a mistake and copied a fake. (Especially because I told you that my English is bad and I can't explain me very well in your language and therefore I asked you to please inform you properly and act in coherence to that. Consider that it is me who provides a service to your English language encyclopedia, if I had not informed you about my changes in German WP, the fake story would continue here and no one would notice.)
• I deleted none of the statements you mention, please look at the history properly.[7] I only deleted the two statements I mentioned and the (false) coat of arms.
• I did not delete the third source (interview with Marshall) because it contains the information about A.T.'s father's profession. So I have left the mention of his father along with this source (I only informed you above that this source does not contain the father's name). Again, check the edit history and do not make false accusations, thank you.--Jordi (talk) 00:03, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oh, I have to correct myself on one point: Yes, I also deleted the sentence:

The Barons von Tschugguel remained Roman Catholic until Tschugguel's great-grandfather converted to Lutheranism.

The reason is obvious, the Barons von Tschugguel never existed, and Marco Gallina is not a reliable source to tell us the opposite. Therefore it is quite irrelevant (and dubious) if his great-grandfather converted to Lutheranism or not, the important fact is that he himself was raised as a Lutheran and converted to Catholicism with 15 years. Contrary to what you say above, I have not removed that last statement, but left it completely untouched along with its source in the article.--Jordi (talk) 00:45, 16 May 2024 (UTC)