Talk:Alexander Michel Melki

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Alexander Michel is from Swedish-Aramean origin

Alexander Michel is a player of Syrianska FC. This is a professional football club that is established in 1977 by Aramean=Syriac immigrants from Sweden. The mother of Alexander is Swedish and his father is from Syriac=Aramean origin. The family Michel is part of the famous Aramean "Melkemichel" family in Sweden. The name SYRIAC is a synonym for ARAMEAN. The name "Syrianska" translated to English is "Syriac" or "Aramean". The most Aramean football clubs in Sweden are called "Syrianska" or "Arameiska" and all of them have the Aramean Eagle in their flag. Sometimes there are people (with political reasons) are try to change the names "Syriac or Aramean" into "Assyrian". This is wrong and would not be accepted. Here was written that Alexander Michel is an "Syriac" player and linked with the "Assyrian" name. This is absolutely not correct and unacceptable. Alexander has nothing to do with this fake (Assyrian) ideology, that is created in the 19th century to destroy our Syriac-Aramean nation and church. The "Assyrians" have their own football club and flag that are called "Assyriska" and NOT "Syrianska or Arameiska".

The position of Alexander Michel is defensive midfielder. I have change this here on Wikipedia. Alexander plays sometimes as defender or defensive midfielder. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ArameanSyriac (talk • contribs) 09:18, 16 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Article name doubts

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved. See a good case made by nominator and other support to rename these articles with common name in English language sources. Effective args were unable to be mounted by the opposition. Kudos to editors for your input, and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover) Paine Ellsworth, ed. ^put'r there 16:11, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

– To make the players recognizable both in Asia and in Europe, and to remove "(footballer)" from Felix Michel's article name. Nehme1499 (talk) 21:05, 1 January 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 21:05, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from WT:WikiProject Football/Archive 121#Article name doubts

Hi,

Two Swedish-Lebanese brothers have been recently called up to the Lebanon national football team for the 2019 Asian Cup. The problem is that they have both "Swedish" names and "Arabic names": for example, Alexander Michel's full name is Robert Alexander Michel Melki, with Alexander Michel being his "European" name (the one used by his club) and Robert Alexander Melki the name used when relating to him being a Lebanese footballer (or in articles relating to the AFC Asian Cup).

The problem is that his brother's article name is Felix Michel (footballer), and I feel like it would be better to remove "(footballer)" from the article title and call him Felix Michel Melki (which, for example, is how he is called by NFT as well as by other websites). Another issue would be related to the recognizability of both footballers, as they would be more known as "Melki" in Asian/Arab countries and as "Michel" in Sweden and European countries.

So my question is, should we keep the current naming of Alexander Michel and Felix Michel (footballer) or change to Alexander Michel Melki and Felix Michel Melki?

Thanks, Nehme1499 (talk) 20:48, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The naming convention of article, usually common name weight more, instead of accuracy. Matthew hk (talk) 20:58, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthew hk: this is exactly why I'm proposing this change. While Alexander Michel is his common name in Sweden, Melki is the surname used when relating to him being Lebanese or in articles about the Asian Cup. An Arabic reader or someone who has discovered him through the Asian Cup will know him as "Melki" and not as "Michel". That's why I'm proposing to keep both surnames, like NFT does. Nehme1499 (talk) 12:52, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You know this is English wikipedia right? Name in other language are supported by redirect. You have to prove your proposal is common name in English language media. Matthew hk (talk) 13:29, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthew hk: these are a few English sources that call him "Melki":

Nehme1499 (talk) 13:44, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Two are primary source (AFC and instagram), and two others are secondary source but not really media. Matthew hk (talk) 13:47, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthew hk: these are other sources:

Nehme1499 (talk) 13:55, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the fox sports use "Robert Alexander Melki ", not the mix of the surname. May be Michel is the anglicisation of Melki ? Matthew hk (talk) 14:40, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthew hk: as far as I can see above in this talk page, one user (@ArameanSyriac) points out that "Michel" comes from the surname "Melkemichel" which is Syriac/Aramean. Melki is a pretty common surname for Byzantine Christians in the Middle East (see Melkite Greek Catholic Church and Flavianus Michael Malke). I don't exactly know if "Michel" is an anglicisation of "Melkemichel", but I think that given all of this we should include his most common name (Alexander, not Robert) and both Michel and Melki to avoid confusion. Nehme1499 (talk) 14:46, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose commonname is Michel, not both Michel + Melki. The goalless draw against Uzbekistan on the Gold Coast on Thursday allowed two of those - brothers Felix and Alexander Michel, both born in Sweden - to make their debuts. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:46, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You don't edit something you wrote before, if you have something to add you add it further down the discussion. Someone reading this for the first time might think that I haven't initially seen your source when in fact you have added it later on.
One source versus about ten I have listed doesn't suggest "Michel" being the "commonname". Nehme1499 (talk) 19:22, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@In ictu oculi: can you provide me with English (not Swedish) sources calling him only Michel and not Michel Melki? Thanks, Nehme1499 (talk) 14:35, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

With respect I'm not even going to look. Why would one look for English sources for a Swedish person's name? Please see WP:BLP. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@In ictu oculi: as you were the one who claimed that his common name is "Michel", it would be appropriate for you to back up what you said. Simply saying that "his common name is Michel" doesn't add anything to the debate. Your contributions both here and on Talk:Moataz Al Junaidi have only been disruptive, so if you want to give your opinions do it in a more appropriate manner, thanks. Nehme1499 (talk) 16:55, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@In ictu oculi: He would not be considered as Swedish any more if he chose to represent Lebanese. The native language would be Arabic script of Lebanese language instead. For a mid-point and as this is en-wiki, the common name is English world should be weighed more, such as the name of a country was stick to Ivory Coast instead of the French official variant. Matthew hk (talk) 16:43, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthew hk: I see, but do you think that for example keeping "(footballer)" in "Felix Michel"'s article name is better than changing it to "Felix Michel Melki"? I think that the tag (footballer) is to be used only if strictly necessary, and in this case it is possible to simply add Melki. What do you think? Nehme1499 (talk) 16:55, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Since Fox Sport Asia use given name + Melki (but should dig out more English media, such as other broadcaster, despite they may just c&p press release), as well as Melki is used in AFC Asian Cup official document, it is perfect fine to move to more "Lebanese" version, and leave the more "European" version Michel as redirect. The situation was basically he had two common names in two foreign languages/cultures (but not enough info to decide the undisputed common name in English for player in the English wiki), Swedish language media may still refer him as Michel (need to dig out source to verify the speculation) while in media and press release that related to the national team, in foreign language and English, would be Melki. The trick of this RM is how to treat piping. When English news report regarding his club is not available, Swedish would be alternative, but the name may appeared as Michel . While the two surnames version, was only used in primary source, such as the instagram of the player.

P.S. the situation was similar to Andrei Radu, primary source prefer Andrei and large part of secondary source switch to use Andrei , but also a significant number of secondary source stuck to Ionuț . Matthew hk (talk) 17:16, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthew hk: As for the common names in the different languages, I can see that in Swedish he is ONLY called "Alexander Michel" (without Melki, or very rarely with), such as for Ekuriren (a), Ekuriren (b) and Fotbollskanalen. In Arabic the translitteration is either "Robert Alexander Melki" or "Alexander Melki" (rarely with Michel). In English, such as for Fox Sports Asia, The Roar, Rippa, FaLebanon, Ghana Soccernet and others, he is called "Alexander Michel Melki". As for piping, I think that the most appropriate thing to do is to pipe the name as "Alexander Michel" when relating to his Swedish club and either to keep "Alexander Michel Melki" when relating to the national team or to pipe it as "Robert Alexander Melki", depending on what will be more common. Nehme1499 (talk) 17:29, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The pic of foxsportsasia use both surnames, but the text use "Robert Alexander Melki", while the Roar, use "Robert Alexander Melki" . Matthew hk (talk) 17:45, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Matthew hk: true, they probably translitterated from Arabic. Still, I think that the best compromise in this situation is to change it to "Alexander Michel Melki" as "Robert" is very rarely used and both "Michel" and "Melki" are equally used (either only "Melki" in Arabic, "Michel" in Swedish or "Michel Melki" in English). There is also a Swedish source that also uses "Melki" (Fotbollskanalen) and an English source that ONLY uses "Michel" (Fox Sports Asia), further showing that both surnames are equally used (even across all languages). Nehme1499 (talk) 17:50, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There are two articles from fox sports asia we are talking about. so better name this as fox sports asia (2). It seem Fox did not consistently use both surname (Compare to fox sports asia (1), as stated above, both surname in the pic but Melki in the text). Matthew hk (talk) 16:34, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Felix Michel (footballer) → Felix Michel that gets rid of dab and doesn't get into above objections עם ישראל חי (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It had no context of neither the footballer or the slalom canoeist is the primary topic of that article title. Matthew hk (talk) 16:27, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. The present title appears to be the name most commonly used in the references. Inter&anthro (talk) 20:37, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Inter&anthro: all the references in which he is called Alexander Michel are Swedish. WP:COMMONNAME applies to English names, which is what we are discussing. As you can see in the references I have cited above most if not all English sources call him Alexander Michel Melki (in this match report Melki is the name, written in English). Basically, in Swedish the common name is "Michel", in Arabic/Asian related news "Melki" is more common, with "Michel Melki" being commonly used in English. "Michel Melki" and "Melki" are more used in English than "Michel". Nehme1499 (talk) 21:04, 9 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Support the fact that Michel is not the only common name (Melki also appeared in the ENGLISH (please don't argue Swedish, he plays for Lebanon for international game and this is English wikipedia) secondary source as part of common name ), but undecided on the solution. Matthew hk (talk) 02:44, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.