Talk:Albania/Archive 4

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Macedonia Request of Comment

The Centralized discussion page set up to decide on a comprehensive naming convention about Macedonia-related naming practices is now inviting comments on a number of competing proposals from the community. Please register your opinions on the RfC subpages 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.

Shadowmorph ^{^"^} 09:19, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Transport, Railway

I suggest that the Railway subsection be edited to remove information about the construction of highways in Albania. Most of the information is already in the Highways subsection, and the author's enthusiasm for new highway construction seems to compromise his/her objectivity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.239.197.44 (talk) 17:59, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Unclear map

The map appearing next to the religion statistics is unclear. What does the red, green and yellow mean? I can make a guess for the red, but the yellow and green I would have no clue. Kind regards.Calaka (talk) 14:15, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Fixed kedadial 14:54, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The map is based on the 1989 tottalitarian census, which is questioned and possibly biased. Green for Greeks, Yelow for Slavic/Macedonias (sometimes called Bulgarians).Alexikoua (talk) 14:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it should be noted that it is a 1989 census. AnnaFabiano (talk) 14:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

It was totalitarian but we do not need to rub that on everyones face all the time. When people read the rest of the text they will understand that it was totalitarian. AnnaFabiano (talk) 17:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Since the demographics section does not mentions that, it shouldn't be repeated. Actually this is exactly what makes this census of questioned quality, and shouldn't be avoided. Otherwise the map should be removed, this article is already overloaded.Alexikoua (talk) 19:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that there is too little information about minorities in both Albania and Greece articles. So, any map, of any sort (this one is historical - you cannot delete a part of history just because it does not suit you - it could be propagandistic, but still it is part of history and it is the only one that we have for the moment) that shows a whole or a part of the puzzle concerning minorities in Albania (and Greece) is welcome. If you want to contribute, make another one with information from foreign organisations, or something similar. AnnaFabiano (talk) 11:34, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Things are simple, if it is a propaganistic census it should be noted. Imagine in the same way uploading data sourced from the North Korean government, and in the same way carefully avoiding and label them 'biased', 'tottalitarian' or at least 'questioned'. Wiki is a free encyclopedia and according to its policy there is no way such kind of information to be presented in an amateur way.Alexikoua (talk) 16:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Fine. How would you say if we would put in brackets at the end of the caption: (before the fall of communism)? AnnaFabiano (talk) 16:50, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure, would be ok. Alexikoua (talk) 19:03, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Demographics section

The sources in the demographics section clearly say "Most Western sources put the Greek population at 200,000." 200,000 out of 3 million is ~6%, not 2%. --Athenean (talk) 18:59, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

You are saying in the article:

"Most Western sources put the Greek population at 200,000..."

then you back it up with a source which says:

"but most Western estimates are around the 200,000 ...".

Anyway, I replaced it with a neutral Western source, the CIA Factbook, which says 3% of the population. Thank you.kedadial 19:35, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

The two source you removed are also neutral Western sources, and also far more specialized and reliable than the CIA world factbook. --Athenean (talk) 19:39, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

The CIA Factbook is reliable, but it's a tertiary source. It's not clear as to where the Factbook is getting its information, therefore it is best to cite secondary sources, such as the references from Athenean's version, for this information. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 02:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if you have checked the sources that were there, I'll repeat what I've said before.

This was written on the article of Albania:

"Most Western sources put the Greek population at 200,000 ..."

While the book that was used as a source was saying:

"but most Western estimates are around the 200,000 ...".

You see what I mean. The article was alleging what the book is alleging. I think that we need a real reliable source on this controversial topic.

"The CIA Factbook is reliable, but it's a tertiary source. It's not clear as to where the Factbook is getting its information ...".

Then, is it clear where does that book get it's information, where it says that most Western estimates are around the 200,000?

Thank you kedadial 03:20, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid I don't see what you mean. If the book says ""but most Western estimates are around 200,000 ...", then what is wrong with saying that in the article? If source X says Y, then we can include Y in the article. It's called "sourcing". This is how wikipedia works. So your claim that "The article was alleging what the book is alleging." is mystifying. The book is a perfectly reliable, secondary source that specializes on the subject at hand. The CIA factbook is a tertiary source that should not be used when reliable secondary sources are available, per WP:PSTS. --Athenean (talk) 03:45, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, the second source (Pettifer) The Greeks: the land and people since the war., which you also removed and are pretending does not exist says quite clearly: "200,000 Greeks live in Albania". Another neutral, reliable, secondary Western source that specializes on the subject. I don't see how it could be more clear than that. --Athenean (talk) 03:49, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

This source is telling us that there are 1.7% of Greek minority in Albania. AnnaFabiano (talk) 15:27, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

If you continue to page 69, you will see that it says "Most western estimates are 200,000". --Athenean (talk) 17:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe the most fair is to put two or three estimates with sources. Since there is no official data about minorities. Would you agree? AnnaFabiano (talk) 21:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think that is a good proposal. If you look at this version [1], that's exactly what you seem to have in mind. One sentence about the size of the minority being contentious (which it is). One sentence about the minimalist (Albanian) and maximalist (Greek) estimates, and finally, one sentence about what most western sources say. The version I am referring to was stable for a good while, and seems to be in line with what you are proposing. Would you be fine with restoring it? --Athenean (talk) 02:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I would say that is fair enough, although, it is only fair if we put the correct CIA percentage as it is displayed there, together with western estimates (200,000). Kedad, what do you say? AnnaFabiano (talk) 13:47, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I have this independent source about Greek minority in Albania. It says that there are about 117.000 Greeks living in Albania. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AnnaFabiano (talk • contribs) 13:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Says that Albania's population is 33 million. I don't think we should put too much faith in it. --Athenean (talk) 05:51, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Autochthony of Albanians

The autochthony of Albanians is generally accepted to day by scholarship.In fact, the theory of Albanian autochthony has never been disputed with such determination and savagery as today, precisely when so much scientific proof has been produced in its support. Nevertheless, the number of researchers still today refusing to take into consideration the many arguments supplied by different academic disciplines has shrunk, or, more accurately, absolutely the only researchers who deny the theory of Albanian autochthony are Serbian.Dr. Aleksander STIPCEVIC.THE QUESTION OF ILLYRIAN-ALBANIAN CONTINUITY AND ITS POLITICAL TOPICALITY TODAY</ref> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.10 (talk) 14:15, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits on Religion

We've been over this controversial topic about religion before and we've reached a stable version of it. I see some recent edits trying to push a POV.

The CIA Factbook reference https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/al.html gives the following figures:

• Muslim 70%, Albanian Orthodox 20%, Roman Catholic 10%
• note: percentages are estimates; there are no available current statistics on religious affiliation; all mosques and churches were closed in 1967 and religious observances prohibited; in November 1990, Albania began allowing private religious practice

So even the Factbook states that there are no available current statistics on religious affiliation, those informations are probably from 1967. Thank you.kedadial 16:21, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

The International Religious Freedom Report 2007 of the u.s department of state is clear on the recent religious groups in albania, so there is no need for the wrong information someone used to put it here without giving any refrence on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eb500 (talk • contribs) 21:15, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The statistics of 70-30 (70% muslims and 30% christians) come from the very distant year 1929. That was 80 years ago, but unfortunately the last one when a religious census was taken. Now the situation is completely different in Albania as a result of a great number of conversions to Christianity. Sampling results have put the number close to 40-60 (40% muslims and 60% christians). sulmues--Sulmues 17:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Member states of La Francophonie

I see this new category has been added [2], I find it somewhat hard to believe but I don't know enough about Albania to tell. Should that category stay? FFMG (talk) 15:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Hard to believe for me too, but it's true according to the La Francophonie article.--Kotniski (talk) 15:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Albanian Religious history - before muslim

Megistias, that part shows that Albanians were Christians before being Muslim and atheist. If you remove that, than you remove a part of basic information on religion. It shows how Albanians is believed to have got their Christian religion. So please discuss before editing. —Anna Comnena (talk) 01:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

No Anna it was irregular and out of place.Main article exists.Megistias (talk) 09:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Megistias, if you remove it, that you are saying that Albanian were never Christians. That is how information is written. In religion there is the lead, than a brief history. —Anna Comnena (talk) 10:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

A simple sentence can be added at the first paragraphs that Albanians were traditionally christians.All that back and forth into time should just ofMegistias (talk) 10:18, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

But it is interesting to know how did Albanians get their religion. —Anna Comnena (talk) 10:28, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Religion, again

A sentence in the "Religion" sentence says "Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages". Since that sounds rather odd, I placed a citation needed tag. 13 minutes later, User:AnnaFabiano added a citation, except that it says nothing about Christianity having to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages. Nothing at all. So it should either be removed, or the sentence changed. This is deliberate source falsification in order to push the tired "Albanians are Illyrians" POV. --Athenean (talk) 22:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

First of all, the sentence that you are referring to was a stable for a long time now. Second, the reference clearly states that paganism was present until Middle Ages. If you do not like the way the sentence is formed, feel free to suggest, if all editors agree we can change it. On the other hand, if the previous sentence is unclear to you, you can request a reference for it too. —Anna Comnena (talk) 22:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Show me where the reference you added says that "Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages". Page number? Can you quote it? The fact that it was "stable" means nothing. Only proper sourcing matters, not whether you claim something is "stable". --Athenean (talk) 22:43, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, Edwin Jacques is most certainly not a WP:RS. Please remove him. --Athenean (talk) 22:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I do not believe that your intimidation will help resolve any issue. If you were interested in resolving anything you would behave a bit more civilized and not imply, whatever it is you imply when you say "Illyrian mania" and leave such arrogant comments. I have added another reference. Though what you are requesting seems odd: Show me where the reference you added says that "Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages". I have references that back that statement but no reference that will use those exact words. —Anna Comnena (talk) 22:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

1) Edwin Jacques is not a serious source. 2) Where does your other source say anything about "Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages"? I'm noy trying to "intimidate" you, I just asked you a simple question. In fact your other source doesn't even mention the middle ages. You quote the following: The reason may be that the Albanians were formed spiritually under the influence of Roman paganism, which was added to the pagan traditions of the Illyrians. Now how does that back up the sentence Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages? Can you please explain? --Athenean (talk) 22:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Edwin Jacques conforms to all WP:RS standards.

The reason may be that the Albanians were formed spiritually under the influence of Roman paganism, which was added to the pagan traditions of the Illyrians - 1. Albanians were signified as Albanians in the Middle Ages (do you agree?) 2. The sentence shows pagan influence among Albanians and Illyrians.

This sentence ""Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages" only shows that Christianity among Albanians was not easily accepted. There existed pre-christian religious (pagan) activities that were somehow also present in the middle ages. The reference backs that. —Anna Comnena (talk) 23:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Edwin Jacques does not conform to WP:RS at all. He is not a historian, but a priest. His book does not contain a bibliography, so it is not a WP:RS. To be considered RS, a book must have a bibliography. Now, the rest of what you are saying is just confusing. Albanians were formed in the middle ages. OK, so what? 2. The sentence shows pagan influence among Albanians and Illyrians What pagan influence among Albanians? I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. The only thing your source says is that the Illyrians mixed their own paganism with that of the Romans. Nothing about Illyrian paganism surviving into the middle ages. So if you want to change the sentence to something like Albanians were formed spiritually under the influence of Roman paganism, which was added to the pagan traditions of the Illyrians, that's fine, because that is what your source actually says. But to claim that Illyrian paganism survived into the middle ages based on this is too much of a stretch. --Athenean (talk) 23:21, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

There existed pre-christian religious (pagan) activities that were somehow also present in the middle ages. I'm sorry, but that sounds like total WP:OR. Your source doesn't even mention the middle ages. --Athenean (talk) 23:25, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Albanians were not signified before Middle Ages. So, if the reference says Albanians were formed spiritually under the influence of Roman paganism, which was added to the pagan traditions of the Illyrians it means that they are referring Middle Aged Albanians (though it could be after the middle ages, but then Albanians turned into islam). BTW, how can one make WP:OR on a talk page? —Anna Comnena (talk) 23:30, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, if you look at Origin of the Albanians, it is more likely that Albanians were formed in early Christian/late Roman times, not the middle ages. They are first mentioned in the historical record in the middle ages, but that is an entirely different point. What you are saying is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH because you take what the source says Albanians were formed spiritually under the influence of Roman paganism, which was added to the pagan traditions of the Illyrians and SYNTHesizing it with Albanians formed in the Middle Ages, which is (a) not true, (b) unsourced. So you are synthesizing the source with an unsourced statement to draw a conclusion that is not backed up by the source. --Athenean (talk) 23:36, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

though it could be after the middle ages. So now you are claiming that Illyrian paganism survived till after the middle Ages, and that Islam had to compete with Illyrian paganism? Come on, be reasonable now. --Athenean (talk) 23:38, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

To recap: Anna inserts a sentence in the reilgion section to the effect of Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages, which is unsourced. When challenged she "sources" it with a source that says Albanians were formed spiritually under the influence of Roman paganism, which was added to the pagan traditions of the Illyrians [3], which says nothing about Illyrian paganism surviving in the middle ages in Albania. She then SYNTHesizes this passage with the (unsourced) statement "Albanians formed in the middle Ages" to support the conclusion that Illyrian paganism survived until the middle ages. This is pure SYNTH/OR, it is factually wrong, and makes no sense whatsoever. The way I see it, the current silence indicates an inability to provide an adequate rebuttal or source. Therefore, since she has failed to appropriately source the sentence Christianity had to compete with Illyrian paganism until the middle ages, it should be removed on the grounds that is unsourced WP:OR. --Athenean (talk) 01:34, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

1 jacques is garbage a priest or something not a historian...2 the noel malcolm chapter cites the BELIEFS of an ALBANIAN NATIONALIST not his own opinion...noels words on the other hand 'with this argument, the mythic pattern becomes complete'...87.202.60.49 (talk) 06:49, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

i removed the badly cited sources but i didnt add a fact tag i leave that to more interested eidtors...87.202.60.49 (talk) 06:56, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

To claim that some Albanians were practicing Illyrian paganism in the Middle Ages sounds very adventurous, given the severe limitations of the sourcing. There seems to be a lot of hand-waving going on. In such a difficult area, it might be better to include some direct quotes from the sources in the references, and let the reader decide. An alternative is to omit the whole topic, since the proofs seem weak and it's not clear how important it is to the article. EdJohnston (talk) 15:46, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

After Rome was declared a Christian Empire by Theodosius in 380, laws were passed against pagan practices over the course of the following years. Many of the ancient pagan temples were subsequently defiled, sacked, and destroyed, or converted into Christian sites. As such, the Christianization attributed to Constantine eventually became a more coercive process under Theodosius.From Christianization.

• Also the province of Illyricum provided military for the empire, their religious affiliations would have been taken care of as early as possible.Megistias (talk) 15:55, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Religious Data

Falcon8765, yes there is lack of religious data from Albania however you are manipulating the data from a specified and trusted source (The statiscs given here are the result of a survey conducted by Albanian WB Data and Statistics, New York University of Tirana and Mother Theresa University of Tirana) by adding data from an informal, 79 year old census that arbitrarily assigned Albanians to religious sects (70% muslim, 20% orthodox christian, 10% catholic), based on old ottoman arbitrary data, which was based on the Albanian populated territories of the ottoman empire including modern day Albania, Kosovo and the valley of Presevo, Chameria, Western Macedonia and part of Montenegro, which in 1930 where not part of the Albanian state. I don't know what your reason is for adding the range (9.43%-70% muslim), but I don't think that lack of religious data is a good enough reason to manipulate the results of a separate survey and rely on outdated, informal, far from accurate data from Ottoman times. The results of the survey accurately portray the current religious picture of Albania.--I Pakapshem (talk) 23:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

WHAT IS THIS INSISTENCE WITH MANIPULATING THE DATA OF THE SURVEY, WHICH CLEARLY PUTS ALBANIAN MUSLIMS AT 9.43% AND NOT IN RANGE OF 9.43% TO 70%?! TO ALL EDITORS WHO KEEP DOING THIS: THE 70% STATISTIC IS TOTALLY UND UTTERLY WRONG AND OUTDATED!!! IT'S FROM A PSEUDO-CENSUS CONDUCTED IN 1930 ON RELIGION! IT'S ALMOST 80 YEARS OLD!!!!! YOU THINK THAT'S RELEVANT?! ESPECIALLY WITH THE SYSTEMATIC DERELIGONIZATION THE COUNTRY HAS GONE THROUGH WITH THE REPUBLICAN, MONARCHIC AND COMMUNIST SYSTEMS! IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT'S FROM THE STATE DEPARTMET, IT'S SIMPLY AND UTTERLY WRONG AND OUDATED!--I Pakapshem (talk) 20:47, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The survey says the percentage is 9%, while the US Department of State gives a figure of 70%. From what I understand, there is no certain figure for the Muslim percentage in Albania so both figures should be left there. Just because you disagree with the statistic doesn't mean that we should disregard it. And take it easy with the caps lock button. --Local hero ^talk 21:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Where does the state department get that figure? Does the state department hold a census on religion in Albania? Have you read other information about religious activity in Albania from other American government agencies? Well let me tell you: The state department uses the same 80 year old pseudo census, which I have explained in detail above, that all other misled westerns use. And it doesn't matter wether I disagree or not, the census is 80 years old and anything but accurate and that is a fact. How would you feel if we used a 80 year old census about FYROM to represent it's current state? Would that be accurate? One more time, read my explanation above carefully and do a little more research. The 70% percent figure needs to go, and the survey is our best option until a proper census on religion is conducted in Albania.--I Pakapshem (talk) 21:30, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree, we should leave the two figures there as it is hard to say an exact number. I also believe that most of the 70% percent of population that get counted as Muslims are not religious at all, but that's just my view. Thank you. kedadial 21:17, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

In light of the recent demographic study carried out by Pew for over 3 years and just released, it states that Muslims account for 79.9% with all other religions and affiliations accounting for 19.1%. This is backed up by a 2008 report by the Ministry of Statistics of Albania as well as Unicef. Furthermore 95% of the Muslims in Albania are Sunni and less than 5% are Shia/Bektashi

I will leave this message on here for about a week before changing the article. The sources I am providing are http://www.childinfo.org/mics3_surveys.html and http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=451. You will need to download the pdf's.

I believe these are the most up to date and sources as well as unbiased. The statistics provided should not be confused with how much of the population is actually practicing that is a moot point. It’s to do with religious affiliation. Furthermore the source that has been provided for the 9% claim is not verifiable at all!! I remember seeing the link, and it did not seem to be publicised on any official website, and looked like it had been drawn up by kids. I believe what I have provided are the most authoritative and reliable statistics to date. I hope people don’t delete it when I change it, unless there is actually evidence of studies carried out that are more authoritative

Thank you

--Elias101 (talk) 10:58, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Albanias Motto

I noticed that somone had decided to input that Albanias motto is "Feja e Shqiptarit është Shqiptaria(The faith of Albanians is Albanism)". This is not an official motto of the country. Thus it deserves not to be there, its a personal motto. I will be changing it --Elias101 (talk) 06:02, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

It's not a personal motto but it's a national motto (of Albanians) as the ref says. I also added the traditional motto from Naim Frashëri. Thank you. kedadial 10:47, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Mate its note a national motto. It’s not a government motto; it’s not an official motto neither of them are. If you want you can make a section called sayings from Albania. Unless you are able to source why it’s a national motto I am afraid it can’t stand. A motto for the purpose of the article has to be official and sanctioned by Albania’s official bodies. Otherwise it’s your personal agreement and point of view of what someone said and you happen to subscribe to it.

Thank you

--Elias101 (talk) 23:01, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Scanderbeg and Albanians by Harry Hodgkinson

Reference: Scanderbeg Harry Hodgkinson published in 1999 The center for Albanian studies

Albanians never tire of reminding themselves, produced an Alexander to subdue Asia : a Pyrrhus who crossed over Italy to fight the Romans ; a series of emperors ,Diocletian among them . who staved off the collapse of the Roman empire ; finally in Constandine the man who found the second and the more enduing Rome …

The language of Albanians ,which come down from pre –classical days ,is weighty evidence in favors of their claims .

Albanian these man of our times , like those who Scanderbeg led to war ,still carried on taboo against working in iron ,for instance ,which leads the imagination back to the time , tow and half millennia ago , when the new technique of iron smelting broke down the old heroic ,aristocratic bronze age society which Homer has made us familiar … —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.60.31.51 (talk) 12:19, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Economy section

I've cleared and expanded the economy section, I don't think there is any problem with its neutrality at the moment. If there are any objections, please state them. - ☣Tourbillon ^A ? 12:34, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Recent removal of images

User:Tourbillon, it's not up to you to decide if there are too many images in the article. Discuss first, before making major changes. Thank you. kedadial 19:38, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I removed some of them because the sections looked too "crouded". Usually a section of that size doesn't need more than 1 or 2 images. - ☣Tourbillon ^A ? 21:16, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Moto

I wonder why a nationalists moto -slogan, as the cited source says- is added on the state's box. Off course it should go.Alexikoua (talk) 18:19, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Alexi, the word nationalism is not necessarily linked with bad things. So yes the motto can be considered nationalistic, but in a good way. A positive nationalism if I may. But is not a Nazi motto, neither a chauvinistic one, so it should not bother anyone. —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:44, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Frankly I agree... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elias101 (talk • contribs) 21:47, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's crystal clear that you have a biased POV towards that motto. kedadial 22:24, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

No I don’t. You are deliberately skewing the issue. The mottos that you are putting up are not official nor are they universally accepted. Albania has NO official motto at the state level or a un-official one in any capacity. That is not a biased POV it’s just a fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elias101 (talk • contribs) 22:49, 11 October 2009 (UTC) --Elias101 (talk) 00:54, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

That motto kept Albanians together on really harsh times and it still does today (so it's a national motto), including me, but probably not guys like you (by you I mean an Albanian as you declare yourself on your userpage and also a radical Islamic which is not declared on your userpage but can be sensed from your biased POV towards the religion in Albania and to the motto itself). Thank you. kedadial 13:28, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I think you are over simplifying what kept Albanians together, and I guess we could argue until you go blue in the face of what kept Albanians together.

In my opinion while nationalist poems by Naim Frasheri and others influenced and contributed to the Albanian solidarity, it played a secondary role. The fact is these sayings came during the 19th C and 20th C. Your argument, if we followed it to its logical conclusion would be that prior to the 18C there was no real feelings of Albanian identity. That is not true, the language survived, the way of living survived for hundreds of years, despite there not being a great many poets around. Those nationalist mottos are of historical value only and their use is when trying to understand the battle of ideas in the 18 C. They are not relevant to today’s Albania, which is at the precipices of entering the European Union. These mottos are not inclusive nor do they describe or relate to the modern Albania. Your lack of detailed argument clery expresses your particular partisan views. But if you are going to hold such partisan views than it would be wise if you offered something more substantive. If as you say Albanians in their masses felt these sayings were of such essential value than why not make them official?

You can accuse me of being a radical whatever, I don’t really care the fact of the matter no one has thus far explained why it is a biased POV. I put forward statistics that related to the subject. People can make up their own mind after reading the statics and the sources which implicitly you are also accusing of being "radical islamist". Stating facts might be a radical idea for some, but if we want to be a truly cultured nation and you want to be respected by others the least you could do is engage with the topic on logical level.

If your aim is truly to not have a biased POV (I suspect this a masquerade) than you should explain why these sources are so radical? Or my explanation of it.

Elias101|contribs]]) 15:42, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Elias, the reason why one would suggest that you are pushing POV, is because of the nature of your edits. You removed only the part about religion on Albanian motto, also you made changes related to agnosticism and atheism in Albania (removing them from the article), which can (not necessarily do) suggest a certain POV and tendencies. Also, your previous edits, like this one, help creating an opinion about your nature of edits. You seem to be a new editor, without discouraging you, I would suggest reading WP policies. It is a preferred WP policy to state all your interest in the user page (including your Islam related interest). —Anna Comnena (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Semi-protection request made

I have made a plea for semi-protection of this article due to the high number of IP vandalism edits. My request can be seen here. Monsieurdl ^{mon talk} 22:06, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Eh?

Albania, along with Croatia, received in 3 April 2008 an invitation to join NATO. Albania and Croatia joined NATO on 2 April 2008 becoming the 27th and 28th members of the alliance

Looks like these countries joined NATO (2nd April) before they were invited (3rd April)? I know these small countries are eager to join NATO, but eager enough to defy the logic of time?Gabr-el 00:03, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Albania and Croatio joined Nato in April 2009. Nothing unlogic here. --Albinfo (talk) 14:19, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Major revision to religious statistics

I am writing this message again as I know there will be a big bru ha ha when it’s eventfully published, I realise it’s a touchy subject for a small minority. Please read carefully and considerately, I will put up a template of what I will be writing, others can add or take as they wish

In light of the recent demographic study carried out by Pew for over 3 years and just released, it states that Muslims account for 79.9% with all other religions and affiliations accounting for 19.1%. This is backed up by a 2008 report by the Ministry of Statistics of Albania as well as Unicef. Furthermore 95% of the Muslims in Albania are Sunni and less than 5% are Shia/Bektashi

I will leave this message on here for about a week before changing the article. The sources I am providing are http://www.childinfo.org/mics3_surveys.html and http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=451. You will need to download the pdf's.

I believe these are the most up to date and sources as well as unbiased. The statistics provided should not be confused with how much of the population is actually practicing that is a moot point. It’s to do with religious affiliation. Furthermore the source that has been provided for the 9% claim is not verifiable at all!! I remember seeing the link, and it did not seem to be publicised on any official website, and looked like it had been drawn up by kids. I believe what I have provided are the most authoritative and reliable statistics to date. I hope people don’t delete it when I change it, unless there is actually evidence of studies carried out that are more authoritative

Thank you

--Elias101 (talk) 23:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Elias. The main problem with religion in Albania has to do with people actually practicing their religious beliefs. In the current article there are sentences that show how the population perceives itself and you can add your references there. Most Albanians (as your sources clearly show 79.9%) see themselves as Muslim. However US State Department says: No reliable data were available on active participation in formal religious services, but estimates ranged from 25 to 40 percent - this makes it very difficult to give an exact number. I think all this is very well mentioned on the article itself, although after some recent edits it could need a bit of copy-editing. —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:25, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok I have made the changes, backed with sources by 3 organizations that have done a study on religion in Albania.

Anna there is no inherent contradiction between religious affiliation and active participation; as such I have left the statistic that states 20-40% religious participation. People can see themselves as Muslim/Christian and not necessarily practice that does not make then any less of a Muslim/Christian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elias101 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

--Elias101 (talk) 20:31, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Elias your edit seems to lack objectivity. Your sources do not show anything about a research done on the issue. It shows research done on other issues, they just used statistics that seemed suitable - you are referring to those statistics. Furthermore, it would be preferable if other (earlier) sources would not be removed.

There is no major research done on Albanian religion. And yes, there is something called agnostic theist: ...It is possible to be a Christian agnostic, an Islamic agnostic.... I believe that a further more elaborate discussion would be appropriate before rushing into edits. Thanks for your efforts, please continue this discussion without further edits, until a sound solution is found. —Anna Comnena (talk) 13:15, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Anna I don’t know whether you read the sources especially the one done by unicef and the ministry of statistics of Albania, a more in-depth look will provided the answers you require, reading to the end (or skipping) will provide you with the methodology that is used.

I don’t see how my article lacks objectify I clearly stated this is about religious affiliation and not how people actually go to the mosque/church or lack of it. And yes you are correct that "there is something called Agnostic theist agnostic theist: ...It is possible to be a Christian agnostic, an Islamic agnostic...", so do you intend to make a point with this or is it just a straw man a red herring?

Furthermore there is no statistical proof of how many people practice their faith in Albania however your reversion (and I presume your support of the statistics) is not based on any factual proof. "One survey found" is not a material fact. Any chance that you will provide us with which survey this is? Or will we get a knee jerk reaction?

I will reiterate myself, hopefully not in ad infinitum.

This is what I will post:

According to the National Institute of Statistics for Albania, working with UNICEF as well as the 2009 Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, in what has arguably been the most detailed and up to date study of its kind, found that 79.9% of the population considered themselves Muslim. Other denominations including “Orthodox, Catholic and others” make up 21.1% of the Albanian population. Furthermore the 2009 study by Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life found that less than 5% of Muslims in Albania are Bektashi (Shia)

* 79.9%: Muslims Sunni, of which less than 5% are Bektashi(Shia) * 21.1: Orthodox Christians Roman Catholic Church|Roman Catholics and others

....

The Communist regime that took control of Albania after World War II suppressed religious observance and institutions and entirely banned religion to the point where Albania was officially declared to be the world's first atheist state. Religious freedom has returned to Albania since the regime's change in 1992. Albanian Muslim (79.9%) are found throughout the country whereas Orthodox Christians are concentrated in the south and Roman Catholics (21.15) are found in the north of the country. No reliable data are available on active participation in formal religious services, and estimates range from 25% to 40%.

Previously the religious figures in Albania stood at 70% Muslim, 20% Catholic and 10% Orthodox. Although these statics were based on estimates from pre-1967 information. There are about 4000 active Jehovahs witnesses in Albania.

As you may notice plenty of time has been allotted for discussion and contribution, how about some actual contribution, is this so offends your highly regarded objective standards. I

These statistics are not about:

1) How many people practice their faith 2) What deeper philosophical categories they would put themselves in if they had to write a book about their spirituality.

This is about: Religious affiliation i.e. how people see themselves prima facie. Nothing more and nothing less.

--Elias101 (talk) 21:25, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Elias for your detailed explanation. First of all, I read the references that you sent in depth, and as I said, UNICEF was not a direct survey on religion, and the other source cites the first one. In fact statistics that show similar results (with the ones you presented) are present in the current form of the article. I think stating that 80% of Albanians are Muslim is not a real objective explanation of Albanian religion. I agree that this is a really complex issue. So saying that 70% are atheist is also not very realistic. But explaining the meaning of agnostic theist in the article would help explain the situation. Also this section need more work on history. As Albanian people are known to be indifferent to religion 12345. To wrap it up: Saying Albanians are 80% muslim, when this reliable source shows that there is very little participation on religious activities, is really premature. Until an official survey is made on religion in Albania, I think we should try and make a realistic view on the issue, having in mind my above points and that we are all neutral contributors without tendencies. I believe we can propose smaller changes for now! —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely agree with you Anna. It's not a black and white issue, especially in Albania, to simply state numbers like 70, 20, 10. kedadial 13:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

The current figures of religion in Albania express the country as multi religious Muslim 38.8%; Roman Catholic 16.7%; non religious 16.6%; Eastern Orthodox 16.1%"Albania" A Dictionary of World History. Oxford University Press, 2000. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press.--Artemisa ne adenice (talk) 18:59, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

 FixedBoth figures are there now. End of discussion. Pew and Oxford have been represented. It should be INSTAT to say how many muslims there are in Albania, and it hasn't done so since 1929.sulmues--Sulmues 21:35, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Religion in ALbania.

Ok , let's start with this problem. Someone says that in Albania 79.9% of population is Islam (Sunni and Bektashis? or what?) and tha other 20,1% are Christian (What? Orthodox or catholic, or maybe protestants?) , and its not written in the link. 779.9+20.1= 100%. It's impossible, because no contry has this percentage of religious people, and not in Albania, the first atheist state. So, if you do not want to spread disinformation, mus think a bit before writing. Today, 60-75% of Albanians do not practice any religion. The other are Muslim , Catholic and Orthodox. But you can't write in all pages of demography of albania only. And, finaly, in Albania there are other minor religions, and according to the data that someone has written here, there don't exist. Please, correct the religion in Albania because it's a false propaganda of users that doesn't respect neutrality of Wiki. Thank you! --Albopedian (talk) 16:23, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The 79.9% statistic was conducted by the Pew Research Center and is the most recent study on the subject (conducted within the past few months). This source is completely neutral and definately not propaganda. We can't just disregard it because you don't agree with it. The idea that most Albanians are nonreligious is also mentioned in the religion section. --Local hero ^talk 16:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

As a neutral editor, I see this as a very concerning problem- one source says a majority of Albania's population is non-religious, while Pew says 79.9% of the population is Islamic. Which source is more correct? Hard to prove... the only way you can resolve this is to present both sources, plain and simple. Monsieurdl ^{mon talk} 01:05, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

This is very easy to explain anecdotally, although I don't know if I could give you a source. Most Albanians are nominally Muslim but are uninterested in either the practices or the doctrines of that religion. So the figures differ because of different definitions of "Muslim": a) a person who if asked their religion, says "Muslim", but probably doesn't do or believe anything as a result of that identifier except a general belief in God, or b) a person who believes in the doctrines of Islam and performs the religious duties of a Muslim. The latter are definitely a minority in Albania, while the former are by far the majority. Again, this is just my anecdotal experience, unsupported by systematic research. Kenji Yamada (talk) 01:56, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I put all the three options. It is right now? I think that we must do the same in Religion in Albania and other pages. Thank you!--Albopedian (talk) 09:21, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

 Fixed I believe the best version so far has just been written. If there are no censuses since 1929 the foreign countries can make a lot of mess with their "studies" (how come the PEW gives 79% muslims and Oxford gives 39%?): it should be INSTAT to give an answer but the govt of albania doesn't want to do that census (s'e ha ate koqe ulliri, ;-).sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 21:32, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Prehistory section

The prehistory section is dreadful. First, it has nothing to do with prehistory. Second, it is a badly written list of archeological sites from various historical periods (e.g. Buthrotum) that again have nothing to do with prehistory. Third it contains empty meaningless statements to the effect of "The fact that history and legend afford no record of the arrival of the Albanians in the Balkan Peninsula has rendered the question of their origin a particularly difficult one to answer." Brilliant. The way I see it, there is nothing to salvage, so unless anyone objects, I will remove it. --Athenean (talk) 00:00, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

It's been five days since my previous posting. Since no one has objected, I am removing the section per WP:SILENCE and WP:SS. There is nothing in there that has anything to do with Albania's prehistory or that is not repeated elsewhere in the article. --Athenean (talk) 23:31, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Hey Greek , hands off Albanian History or pay back on the Greece page.--Lceliku (talk) 20:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

It's funny how I waited 5 MONTHS (not days, months) to build consensus on putting the unique infobox in Kosovo article [4]and [5], had a consensus reached, and then when I made the change per WP:SILENCE and WP:SS, I was banned because Athenean filed an WP:ANI report on my "disruptive behavior". Now I cannot edit on Kosovo related articles, and for that matter even on Albanian Alps because Athenean has reported me again in breaking the ban. According to Athenean when I talk about the Albanian Alps for some reason they are related to Kosovo. He reported me here [6] yesterday.

Lceliku: I would urge you to be polite with Athenean anyways. He has already reported many Albanians to admins and the only thing that you will obtain, is that he will patrol himself all the Albania-related topics. To the English users Albania will just look like a province of Greece mistakenly having an independent country and that's not what we want. I have noticed that Athenean is an expert in making very good use of all the sources of Wikipedia to make his point.

Athenean: I would urge you to read this [7] and be nicer to newcomers. I am a newcomer as opposed to you and so are a lot of new editors. Making their lives difficult without letting them contribute to Wikipedia articles and without letting them be bold will make Wikipedia a poorer place to be. Again I would like to remind you not to make massive reverts in Albania. Thanks!sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 15:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Patos Marinzas

The article has nothing about Patos Marinzas, the biggest on-shore oil field of Europe.Agre22 (talk) 01:45, 8 November 2009 (UTC)agre22

It is Patos / Marinza stgupid —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.59.88.57 (talk) 15:24, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Arnavutluk

I was surprised to find out that there is no mention of the Ottoman/Turkish name of the country in this nice and long article. At least the etymology section should have included something. After all, Arnavutluk and Arnavut (Albanians) have been a very visible if not prominent part of Ottoman history for centuries. A sizable Arnavut community in Turkey still recognize and identify their roots.--Murat (talk) 18:04, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Murat! I was not aware that Albania was called Arnavutlk during the Turkish presence. Could you please provide a map to show Arnavutluk within the Ottoman Empire? I'll make sure to update the article. As a matter of fact many improvements are due here, but unfortunately many albanian users have been banned. If you ban too many users of a small people, that's what you get. sulmues (talk)--Sulmues 16:58, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by Albania was called Arnavutlk? Further more, the article states that it was official! Arnavutlk or Arnavut is the way how the otomans used to call albanian and albanians during that time but that was not any official name! Sulmues, I think you should remove the term "officially". Even nowodays, Trukish people refer to albanians as Arnavut, but that does not make it an official naming for Albanians. Piasoft (talk) 02:13, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Shingen

Is it not an important port city in Albania? I know it may have different names, but could not see any reference anywhere. I made a little stub (San Giovanni di Medua) which needs much input.--Murat (talk) 18:04, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

You may be thinking of Shëngjin, which today is a small town near Lezha. The only port cities in Albania are Durrës and Vlora. Kenji Yamada (talk) 07:49, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually Shëngjin has a port and it is very important. You can check on google for images of Shëngjin port. A lot of goods that go toward Kosovo is processed thought this port. Piasoft (talk) 02:21, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Oops, I was mistaken on this point! Thanks for the correction. Kenji Yamada (talk) 18:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Religious numbers

I made useful changes to the religious statistics here: [8] because the numbers in the reference [9]was incorrectly used and added so I had to foot the numbers properly. It took me some minutes to do that.

But here comes athenean and reverts the WHOLE THING with other things as well and makes a mess in the article. Of course his numbers in the article for religious statistics won't add up to the right amounts that appear in the source. [10]. Athenean, please do the math and you will see that your numbers don't make any sense. And stop whispering to the admins to ban all the albanians that you find on your way, otherwise you'll get IP editors getting back at you. All you'll get is to ask for protection and have no life. sulmues (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:39, 29 December 2009 (UTC).

What I find most disturbing is that people are even suggesting basing the religion statistics on little-known dubious sources, while the sources most commonly used for the same purpose on other articles are not even mentioned. According to Britannica:

In the early 21st century about seven-tenths of the Albanian population was nominally Muslim, more than half of them Sunni Muslims and the next largest group being the Bektashi sect. Those who identified with Eastern Orthodoxy constituted about one-fifth of the population, and those associated with Roman Catholicism constituted about one-tenth. Muslims are spread throughout the country, although they particularly dominate the centre. Roman Catholics have settled primarily in the northern part of the country, mainly in the city of Shkodër, while Orthodox Christians are prominent in the southern districts of Gjirokastër, Korçë, Berat, and Vlorë.

The CIA World Factbook also repeats the traditional figures (Muslim 70%, Albanian Orthodox 20%, Roman Catholic 10%) as "estimates".

While I do understand and respect the POV of certain Albanians to underestimate the extent of traditional/nominal Islam in Albania believing that by doing so they are presenting Albania as more "Western" or "European", and the point of even doing so is in itself debatable, these facts should not be removed from the article. I suggest including all available sources.--Ptolion (talk) 21:56, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Very good point Ptolion. There is definitely a concerted effort to portray Albania as "Christian" and therefore "Western" and "European" as possible. There is a very simple way to deal with this, however. What is sourced to reliable sources can stay, what is sourced to dubious sources goes in the trash. Simple as that. There is absolutely no need to respect or tolerate any sort of POV-pushing. We have ways of dealing with that as well. --Athenean (talk) 00:22, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

The situation is actually much worse than that. There are deliberate attempts at deception here. I noticed that the article says the World Christian Encyclopedia published in 2001 by the Oxford University Press. Vol 1: p 51 says that roughly 39% of Albanians are Muslim, and 35% being Christians. However, when I check the citations provided, neither of them has anything to do with the "World Christian Encyclopedia". One is from some website [11], the other is from the website of the Albanian consulate in Milan [12]. Whoever inserted these mentioned the Oxford University Press in a deliberate attempt to mislead and cast an air of respectability on these dubious sources. I will consequently remove them and replace them with the CIA World Factbook and Encyclopedia Britannica. --Athenean (talk) 00:39, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Now you have the reference directly from the World Christian Encyclopedia with full isbn. sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 01:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

That's an improvement, although do you think you could include a link to the citation? It's impossible to verify the way you have provided it. In general, the World Christian Encyclopedia should be treated with caution as a source, as it is known to be pro-Christian and consistently gave a higher estimate for percent Christian in comparison to other cross-national data sets. I am not terribly interested in this debate, so I will leave it there for now, but that is something to keep in mind. --Athenean (talk) 02:21, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to touch this any longer either. I really can't provide a citation for the fact that 1929 is really the last year when Albania had an official religious census, so it's ok if you take it out: it's unsupported, even though I'm sure about it. Now World Christian Encyclopedia might be biased, but I could argue that also the PEW research is also biased. Bottom line the company is a think tank that works for the US government. And so does the CIA (that refers to the 1929 data). I could argue that the interest of the USA is to depict Albania like as a muslim country because it wants to make it an example of a democratic muslim country for other muslim theocratic countries. That's why the truth might be closer to what the World Christian Encyclopedia is saying. Furthemore there are 1200 christian churches in ALbania and 500 mosques, what does that tell you? sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 16:57, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I removed a small section that pertained specifically to the Jehovah's witnesses and LDS or 'Mormons'. With a population of over 3 million, it didn't seem noteworthy to single out these 2 groups and note their numbers with only a few thousand apiece, without attempting a more detailed breakdown of the christian percentages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.217.144.112 (talk) 23:31, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd say that as Jehovah's witnesses and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are among the fastest growing religions in the world, this is very relevant. 2007apm (talk) 20:56, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Sulmues I really doubt the US govt is peddling an agenda of trying to showcase Albania as some kind of shining example. This is just fanciful, especially since there are other more successful Muslim democracies other than Albania’s weak emerging one, with the added gravitas of being more important and much larger than an island, like Indonesia or Turkey.

Were are these 1200 Churches in Albania, that’s ridiculous, your statements are ridiculous. That goes for mosques as well? What I want to know is why they have stopped at these nice round numbers. Just let Albania be what it is stop inventing facts--Elbasan101 (talk) 19:09, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Science and technology section

I think it would be appropriate to add a section to Alabamian Science and technology. I have found some sources can someone help me put something together.

R&D research does not exceed 0.18% of GDP 24 research studies institutes

"From 1990 human resources in sciences and technology have drastically decreased.

Various surveys show that during 1990-1999, approximately 40% of the professors and research scientists of the universities and science institutions in the country have emigrated. This exodus is growing and according to a survey run in 1998 a greater number of highly educated people want to emigrate. They are mainly young people who wish to emigrate for a long time or forever. It is clear that if the economic and social situation in the country does not improve, the Albanian brain drain will continue as intensively as before.

However, the continuous brain drain poses a severe threat to this system. Driving forces for the brain drain are found in the deteriorated economic living conditions, the lack of state – of – the – art infrastructure and funds that constitute serious obstacles for research. The restrictive visa regulations also hinder scientific exchange and temporary employment abroad.

Some of the highly educated people do return after their studies and others may also consider it. During this year the new government has planned many ways to provide the acilities to have the new situation changed into : the brain gain.

Mapping Exercise - Albania

There is a total 578 scientific workers in our country: 274 in Academy of Sciences and 304 in R & D institutions of Ministries. The number of personnel in R & D in Albania are about 0,2 for 1000 habitants" http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:JGpOLZ36GhYJ:webmob.masfak.ni.ac.rs/uploads/articles/webmob_mapping_exercise__albania.ppt+Research+and+development+in+albania&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a

"Albania approves science strategy. On 29 June, the Council of Ministers approved the National Strategy for Science, Technology and Innovation in Albania covering the period 2009–2015.

It fixes five strategic goals to 2015:

To triple public spending on research and development (R&D) to 0.6% of GDP;

To augment the share of gross domestic expenditure on R&D from foreign sources, including via the European Union’s Framework Programmes for Research, to the point where it covers 40% of research spending;

to create four or five Albanian centres of excellence in science which will be equipped with dedicated laboratory equipment and workspaces that could be used for pre-incubation, testing, certification and so on of new technologybased firms;

to double the number of researchers, both through ‘brain gain’ incentives like a returning researchers grant scheme and through the training of new researchers, including 500 PhDs: this will entail establishing up to three new doctoral programmes in Albanian universities;

to stimulate innovation in 100 companies, either via investment in local R&D or via consortia with academic research institutes or foreign partners."

http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=46557&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html

http://cordis.europa.eu/fetch?CALLER=MSS_AL_NEWS_EN&ACTION=D&DOC=3&CAT=NEWSQUERY=012781319cf6:585a:79a1ee85&RCN=28126

http://cordis.europa.eu/fetch?CALLER=MSS_AL_NEWS_EN&ACTION=D&DOC=1&CAT=NEWS&QUERY=012780c04814:b450:09ce483b&RCN=29062

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:1gIeJX2H-HAJ:www.wbc-inco.net/attach/Report_Albania.pdf+Research+and+development+in+albania&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiVyVg-g24X1JrNgP4MR0kEohPCbi4GKeMk_Fr6f37xM4YM9ktL81AFlmlZpwtfI1V0zqupMN33_qHvlQeDmaylE1NwW4dQHxMPEvJTOlHGkrTIXetsgaK0PthxdmhmpdWTcn9x&sig=AHIEtbR1QZwMakonOSgkdrkitiO4CO-CCw

--Elbasan101 (talk) 12:55, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

I cobbled something together...some pics would be nice, looks a bit dull, maybe I can reduce teh words later, easier in the eyese and evrything--Elbasan101 (talk) 20:35, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Motto

The motto part in the infobox is incorrect. Albania does NOT have an official governmental motto. That reference is obviously not referring to any official government motto. I suggest that the motto part of the infobox be properly removed, as it's not referring to anything properly sourced. Anyone who disagrees? --Sulmues _talk 20:42, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Nope. I agree —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elbasan101 (talk • contribs) 11:10, 10 April 2010 (UTC) --Elbasan101 (talk) 11:28, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Religion for the umptinth time!

Should this be added

A second study of religion in Albania under the International Religious Freedom Report 2009, performed by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor of the United States's State Department, found that a majority of Albania's population is nonreligious.

International Religious Freedom Report 2009 Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor United States Department of State

1) The "study" posits a view "that a majority of Albania's population is nonreligious". That may well be the case, probably true, but surely we need to see the data on which this assumption is based on. I assume come kind of study was done, or some local sources acting in an official or neutral capacity were used. Or maybe religious attendance figures have been compiled. If this is the case than this should be published.

The religious section has become a monstrosity, with personal innuendos backed by doggy sources trying to accommodate every view. This source adds to the speculation without any proof. Merely saying something is true does not make it so.

2) There is a suggestion that this is a NPOV source, and assumption being that it is accurate or quasi-accurate. However when I read the report there seemed to be inaccurate reporting on religious freedom in Albania. The constitution allows religious freedom both in school and in society. The government has made it clear that religious discrimination on the basis of ones attire is prohibited. This is backed up by the Albanian constitution Art 10. The study/report seems to condone the practice that some teachers in Albania do not allow their students to hear hijabs, quite contrary to religious freedom. This is either sloppy or biased work.

For these reasons I would that the source not be included pending further information concerning the statement made.

There is no law prohibitng hijabs, but social attitudes tend to be against the use of hijabs so obviously some teachers won't let their students wear hijabs. I don't see why that shouldn't be mentioned. The Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor of the United States's State Department is a reliable source, so I don't see why this isn't rs. --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 16:00, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

No there isn’t any law prohibiting hijabs, no one is suggesting that. Without going to much into this, the law on religious freedom is not respected and rarely enforced, especially in the case of the Islamic community where teachers/professors and heads of university deny students in their unis/schools because of beards or hijabs. This is well documented yet this report mentions in passing and seems to condone their actions. My point being is that this report is not adequate enough to be mentioned, as its in-complete and factually unsubstantiated with the statements it has put forward, i.e majority of population is non-religious.

So we have a report that condones or under-plays abuses, makes statement which are not backed up; this equals to a report that is not reliable. To suggest that the majority of the population is "non religious" is a big statement, which in my opinion should be able to have some basis. No such thing is put forward. Surely we should know how this conclusion was formed? Not every assumption that is put forward about religion in Albania should be posted.--Elbasan101 (talk) 17:55, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Albania was not founded in the Twentieth Century

In the info boxes for Montenegro and many other countries in the region, information pertaining to independence from the Byzantine Empire and anteceding political entities is included. Why is there no mention in Albania’s info box of the Principality of Arber, Skanderbeg and Lezhe’s confederations, etc? A quick glance at this article seems to imply that Albania just sprouted out of the Ottoman Empire relatively recently, when in fact the Albanians are the oldest continuous inhabitants of the Balkans. With all due respect, I think that fresh data should be added to the formation heading, especially references to periods in Albania’s long and documented history of independence from regional powers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.201.163.5 (talk) 09:23, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Albania's university started in 1950s no question: Moscopole's wasn't a University if that's what you meant.

Removed this edit as possibly vandalism, but actually I apologize, maybe I have to AGF the editor. Nevertheless, the edit is completely unfounded and I reverted. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 02:08, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

The minority map

Since there is no official data that shows minority distribution and percentage in general the map seems to be without a source to back it. New data will come in 2011. Maybe then a map could be made. (AnnaComnena) 91.187.96.236 (talk) 18:58, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

This map is about the traditional precense of ethnolinguistic minorities and doesn't include precentages. Apart from being well sourced, I can't see a reason why a future census in Albania should change the traditional precence of this minorities.Alexikoua (talk) 19:10, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

AnnaComnena are you User:Anna Comnena? The map seems to have been reported for deletion on commons here by BW.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Why is "traditional presence of the minorities" relevant to an encyclopedic article about Albania? There seems to be no source backing the presence shown on the map. —AnnaComnena 91.187.96.236 (talk) 16:45, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

The "minority map" is erroneous. The greek minority does not extend that far inside Albania. There are plenty of other maps online showing the traditional minority zones. Again this just devalues Wikipedia as a trustful source of information than anything else. -Fieraku —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.181.8.202 (talk) 04:44, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Jews in Holocaust

Currently one sentence reads >Albania was one of the European countries occupied by the Axis powers that ended World War II with a larger Jewish population than before the war.[34][35][36][37] ... <

I would like to change this sentence to:

>Albania was the only country occupied by Germany that ended World War II with a larger Jewish population than it had before the war. [34][35][36][37] ... <  

i.e. I want to make the statement stronger and also truthful ... the older existing statement implies that some other European countries occupied by the Axis powers also had an increase in its Jewish population 1939-1945. No other did. And the words "Axis powers" are in the context wishy washy. The only Axis occupiers in Europe were Italians and Germans. And Jews generally survived Italian occupations but not German. And the word "European" modifying "countr[ies] becomes unnecessary once German is substituted for Axis ...

Any objection to the change, suggestions ? Kits2 (talk) 23:31, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Albania Receives 2010 United Nations Award

Please rephrase and re-apply for this edit. This is possibly in copyright violation since it was copied and pasted. Joe Gazz84 (user)•(talk)•(contribs) 10:22, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

On June 23, Albania was recognized by the United Nations for its contribution to improving transparency, accountability and responsiveness in the public sector. Albania's Public Procurement Agency was awarded the 2nd place prize for.......

http://albania.usaid.gov/shfaqart/472/31/Albania_Receives_2010_United_Nations_Award_.htm 108.7.5.36 (talk) 23:01, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

EU Aid in 1997 NOT military

I cannot post directly because of personal involvement, having led the financial team of the Western European Union's Multinational Advisory Police Element which restabilised the country after the pyramid banking schemes collapsed, leading to the generalised raiding of the arsenals. My key point here is that although this unit had a General of the Italian Carabinieri at its head, this was principally because Italy was most exposed to Albanian refugees. Its other staff were principally normal police attached by a number of nations and civilians, including Albanians, and it was managed under the close supervision of the Council of WEU with a number of extra nations participating actively. Consequently, to say that it was led by an Italian Military force is entirely wrong, it followed on exactly the same policy and staff as the earlier UN Sharp Guard blockade also run by WEU but using a much less military force. Indeed, the bulk of the political stabilisation was done by just one man, a Norwegian Police Colonel whose John Wayne impression from the Rogner Hotel to the Ministry of Justice delivered the message that this time it wasn't the Russians invading and the locals had better calm down! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.63.24.114 (talk) 17:53, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Modern period

I will not edit the page while it is locked despite being able to do so. The independence section is inconclusive. November 1912 saw the proclamation of independence but the question is: when was it recognised? The first major world treaty affecting that area was London 1913 that officially banished Serbs and Montenegrins by giving them Kosovo instead. I thought from previously reading this page, Albania was a principality from 1914. The phases of the Ottoman Empire presentation (marking its territory green, all else white) keeps Albanian green (Ottoman) until 1913 when the whole surrounding area turns white (First Balkan War result). Can anyone paint a clear picture as to the events, and what was the ceremony of recognition? Evlekis (Евлекис) 20:38, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from SkifterShqiptar, 12 August 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} I request the coat of arms be changed to the upgraded Albanian eagle currently used by the Albanian repubic, then one Winkipedia has in used is the old Albanian Kingdom Coat of arms over 70 years ago.

This is the new one: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Albania_state_emblem.png

SkifterShqiptar (talk) 03:22, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't know why you made such a request, the CoA that you provided is already being used. Cheers. — Kedaditalk 04:31, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Already done. See above. Thanks, Stickee (talk) 06:32, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Ethnicity in the census

Until ethnicity is indeed included in the census, this [13] should stay. Of course, if in the next census ethnicity is included, it can be removed when that actually happens. Athenean (talk) 16:18, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The questionnare has already been published and it's a very liberal one regarding minorities(you can even declare yourself as an ethnic Aromanian, something you can't do in any other Balkans country), so Athenean please don't restate outdated material.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 23:09, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

When the census actually takes place, you can change it back. Till then, WP:CRYSTAL I'm afraid. Athenean (talk) 00:16, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place, so I'll change it back adding another source too[14]. The pilot census is already being conducted and the official one will begin on April 2, 2011.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:21, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

How exactly is it certain to take place? Athenean (talk) 17:35, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

So what? What does that have to do with ethnicity? Athenean (talk) 17:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)That has to do with the fact that you have added that Albania doesn't collect stats regarding ethnicity and the fact that you have added a speculation about the Albanian government being afraid of such data.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 17:50, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Motto

Please add motto:

Ti, Shqiperi, Me jep nder, me jep emrin Shqiptar! (You, Albania, give me honour, give me the name Albanian) (national)

E mos shikoni kisha a xhamia, Feja e shqiptarit asht Shqyptaria! (Don't look at churches or mosques, the faith of the Albanian is Albanianism) (popular)

I added this before but someone told me please insert first talkpage (done now) --Vinie007 22:28, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I believe it was me asking you to do that. The problem is that none of the above is appropriately sourced to be the motto of the Albanian government or of the Albanians in general. The first is from Naim Frasheri, the second from Pashko Vasa (or Ndre Mjeda?) and they're both cool, but what are the sources? Nevertheless, I would like a consensus here before going to the main page and entering things that are unsourced. Not that other countries have it sourced, but at least let's agree on this talk page which is going to be the motto. --Sulmues ^(talk) 19:10, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Byzantine era

I think that this section should be renamed to Middle Ages or Medieval period/era because large parts of what is now Albania were under Bulgarian rule for significant periods during the Middle Ages. For now I will just add a little information because there is not even a link to the Bulgarian Empire in the section. --Gligan (talk) 15:47, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Demographics Image

The image used in the demographics section is inaccurate and somewhat misleading. It's lends to the idea that the regions listed as "minority areas" are actually inhabited mostly by those minorities. Perhaps something like what's listed on the Republic of Macedonia, Kosovo, or Greece pages using local ethnic majorities or linguistic minorities (in shading, as is the case for Greece) would be appropriate. Anyway, the districts are outdated - http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/File:AlbaniaNumberedDistricts.png Spyenson (talk) 01:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

The map is sourced to reliable sources and identical in spirit to the one used in Greece. If you notice, it says in the caption that this is the "traditional" distribution of minority language areas in Albania, which is true regardless of the current situation. The areas in the south shown in blue were solidly Greek-speaking, and still are, as are the Vlach, Montengrin ancd Macedonian language areas. Athenean (talk) 07:13, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes but the use of block shading suggests that they are either the dominant language or the only language spoken. On the File:Greece linguistic minorities.svg, the minority language groups are shaded on the map. Anyway, the districts are still incorrect. Spyenson (talk) 10:00, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

You are completely right Spyenson, because in all these shaded areas there is no majority of any of these groups(or even a significant minority in most cases). I think that a wider discussion is needed because weasel words are being used to create an unrealistic image of Albania. It seems that there has been some sort of xfd for this map. Quoting the nominator: It is totally biased, based on a clearly POV 19-th century pro-Greek map made by George Soteriadis Professor of History at the University of Athens, a 19-th century Greek historian.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 10:08, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Spyenson's note is right to perform a minor shading adjustment but doesn't mean that the map is inaccurate, it's just about 'traditional presence'. Also this has nothing to do with Zjari's comments which are irrelevant with this topic (this has been discussed on several boards and the result was clear since the map is oversourced with reliable material such as Monde Diplomatique, so there is no need to recycle the same again and again). About the districts, they change almost from from year to year (same problem with several other countries like Greece), I don't feel that there is a serious reason to change them since these were the coutry's districts for most of the 20th century and the changed are minimal.Alexikoua (talk) 19:09, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

There has been no discussion about this map and my comments are not irrelevant.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:31, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

There are also some Monde Diplomatique materials [15] and [16] which would probably give a more accurate current ethno-linguistic picture Spyenson (talk) 20:50, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the premise of the image, with which I believe the creator intends to show areas historically populated by certain ethnic minorities (debatable as they may be). However, the title of the image is "Albania minorities" and it is located in the demographics section. Located here it would lead one to believe (as a similar map led me to believe) that these areas are the majority populations of the shaded areas. I think the demographic map of Greece would be a better example to follow. As for the accuracy of the districts, I believe there have only been two major "versions" (including the current one) since 1991, so if you change the map for shading, it can't hurt to update the districts. Spyenson (talk) 20:44, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Crime and Human rights section in the article

I see that Crime and Human rights section is a peculiarity of Albania article. I can not understand the of it being there. It contains three articles Main article: Human rights in Albania LGBT rights in Albania and Albanian mafia. These topics are not mentioned anywhere in other country articles although existing as separate articles.

As for the case of Mafia (and I am getting only the most well known Mafia organizations in the world):

• We have Russian mafia article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Russia article.
• We have Italian Mafia article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Italy article.
• We have Chinese Mafia article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in China article.
• We have Japanese Mafia article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Japan article.

Something does not turn around?!

As for the human rights section (and I am getting the most well known examples) in the world we have:

• We have Human rights in Russia article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Russia article.
• We have Human Rights in India article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in India article.
• We have Human Rights in China article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in China article.

or we can continue in the Balkan area

• We have Human rights in Serbia article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Serbia article.
• We have Human rights in Croatia article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Croatia article.
• We have Human rights in Romania article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Romania article.
• We have Human rights in Greece article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Greece article, (without mentioning Terrorism in Greece which by this logic should have been there?!)
• We have Human rights in Bulgaria article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Bulgaria article.

Again something does not turn around?!

As for the LGBT rights section

• We have LGBT rights in Russia article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Russia article.
• We have LGBT rights in China article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in China article.

etc etc... In Balkan area

• We have LGBT rights in Serbia article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Serbia article.
• We have LGBT rights in Croatia article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Croatia article.
• We have LGBT rights in Romania article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Romania article.
• We have LGBT rights in Greece article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Greece article.
• We have LGBT rights in Bulgaria article, but it's not mentioned anywhere in Bulgaria article.

again something does not turn around as it should?!

As we see this is not the standard we use in Wikipedia in country articles. It is more a propaganda issue than an encyclopedia issue and as such it should be deleted accordingly. Every country has its "skeleton in the closet" but this is not the place of showing it, as other articles rightly demonstrate. Who is interested in such topis could go to the relevant articles which are stand alone articles as others of their kind explained above. Aigest (talk) 16:24, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Too many topics that shouldn't be covere on this page have been included over the years.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:54, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Good job Aigest --Vinie007 13:11, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit Request: Map in Demographics

The last point I'd like to raise for today is the map in the demographics section. There is no source given for it to make it even remotely reliable. The figure would seem to suggest an area much larger than 200,000 is Greek or speaks Greek. This is very unreliable and has no evidence to back it up. It affects the reliability of the whole demographics information and thus should be omitted until a reliable source or evidence is found, if at all.

Armendel (talk) 14:32, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

The map is based on a number of reliable sources (Monte Diplomatique etc.). It doesn't show majority/minority areas, but presence of communities other than Albanian in Albania.Alexikoua (talk) 21:05, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Kosovo

Why is Kosovo listed as "bordering with Albania" if it is not an independed country? Norum 03:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

---That is because Kosovo declared independence on the 17th of February 2008. 

It has been recognized by 76 UN member countries. On the bordering issue, Kosovo is a real geographical area and as such it borders with Albania. The fact that it is recognized by the majority of developed countries makes it possible to list it as a recognized independent republic. Armendel (talk) 11:01, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

First of all, Kosovo is a Serbian land, but Albanians gradually took it over. Second of all, Wikipedia entry states that "Kosovo is a disputed territory following the collapse of Yugoslavia". Emphasizing "a disputed territory". Also, Kosovo is UN-governed entity. Norum 03:45, 20 June 2011 (UTC)