Talk:Afrobeats/Archive 1

Archive 1

Infobox

Please, edit the infobox. I have destroyed It mistakenly. Thank You. Cassa342 (talk) 16:30, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

OK. So, I have tried to edit this infobox. I don't know, if It looks good. Thank You. Cassa342 (talk) 16:44, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

GSoC microtask

Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2022

Add to the last sentence in the "Late-2010s" section that Barack Obama shared his favorite songs of 2019 featuring Rema’s “Iron Man” and Burna Boy’s “Anybody”. See "BURNA BOY AND REMA’S SONGS MAKE BARACK OBAMA’S 2019 “SONGS OF THE YEAR” from The Guardian ("Former President of the United States of America, Barack Obama has shared his favorite songs of 2019 and our very own stars made it to his list.") Suggested wording with citations:

In the same month, Barack Obama shared his favorite songs of 2019 featuring Rema’s “Iron Man” and Burna Boy’s “Anybody”. Dahbaeraychy (talk) 20:47, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Hello, sorry for the late reply. I have added about his first Summer 2019 addition. I believe this is sufficient personally, it seems he adds some afrobeats every year now. Madbrad200 (talk) 02:54, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Some user named iammissbee has performed a series of edits on the 20th of May 2022 that removes Ghana as one of the countries that contributed to the rise of afrobeats. I think this wrong. Her edits have also messed up the page. Please revert her changes.

 Done Cannolis (talk) 03:48, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 21 May 2022

Please change the second sentence of the first paragraph from: "Afrobeats is less of a style per se, and more of a descriptor for the fusion of sounds flowing out of Nigeria."

to: "Afrobeats is less of a style per se, and more of a descriptor for the fusion of sounds flowing out of Nigeria and Ghana."

This was the original sentence before some destructive edits by the user iammissbee. Briskman76 (talk) 16:22, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

 Done Content restored as iammissbee was reverted by another editor for deleting without explanation which they then did again. I've indicated in my summary, and will indicate on their talk page, that this really needs a discussion before further edits are made. —Sirdog (talk) 06:40, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Please remove all edits by iammissbee. I'm Nigerian myself and I can vouch her comments are wrong and unnecessarily divisive. To allow her edits to persist would discount the contributions of Ghanaian musicians like Fuse ODG, Sarkodie, producers like Juls and the fusion of Ghanaian genres like Highlife, Hiplife and Azonto into modern afrobeats. Heck, two of the biggest afrobeat songs of the 2010s were Azonto by Fuse ODG and Adonai by Sarkodie. Are we going to ignore their contributions?

 Not done: Please see my reply on Talk:Afrobeat (diff). —Sirdog (talk) 06:40, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi, if possible, please add hiplife and highlife back into the stylistic origins. I noticed iammissbee has removed them but it is not accurate to this genre. The page discusses contributions of Ghana and Ghanaian artists but the user has removed the Ghanaian genres. Akanmusic (talk) 07:00, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Zouk

To write about Afrobeat without mentioning the music from which Afrobeat developed is sacrilegious. Zouk is the music from which Afrobeat came from. This music is from the French Caribbean islands Guadeloupe and Martinique, popularized by the band Kassav. So called Afrobeat was already playing all over the Caribbean in the 1980s as zouk. The song “Zouk La sé sel médicament nou ni”, became an anthem that spread the music genre all over west Africa. Years later, Afrobeat developed from Zouk. Let’s give credit where credit is due/ 76.173.86.150 23:47, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

This article is about afrobeats, not Afrobeat. If you're able to provide sources that discuss Zouk and its relation to Afrobeats, please list them out here. Madbrad200 (talk) 22:49, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Afrobeats

The page acknowledges that it is just an umbrella term for all sorts of traditional West African music. The problem is that it goes on to state that it has a stylistic origin from certain music genre's which to me contradicts definition of it simply being an umbrella term for West African music. Moreover Afrobeats has nothing to do with "dancehall" and "R&B", I believe the person who wrote this Wikipedia confused Afrobeats for "Afro-fusion" which is a seperate genre that combines the types of west African music under Afrobeats with R&B and dancehall.

I would recommend these to be re-edited. UzumakiPDSS (talk) 10:29, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Sources generally describe afrobeats to be a umbrella for a fusion of sounds flowing out of Nigeria/Ghana. While these may have some differences, they hold roughly similar influences and origins (albeit still diverse). It's not a term for traditional music, or all West African music, - it's modern styles of West African pop music that are primarily created in Nigeria and Ghana, and their respective diasporas. The nuance is necessary because, unlike generic umbrella terms such as 'World Music' with don't really hold a graspable definition beyond "it's not western", Afrobeats does generally have a particular soundscape that defines it, even if it is an amalgamation of a few different things. In a similar sense, (western) "Pop" music is also an umbrella of various sounds, but one can still discuss the stylistic origins of modern Western pop music. With regards to Dancehall and R&B, various sources note these as influences (linked in the article) - the latter especially has become more prominent in recent years. With regards to Afro-Fusion being distinct from Afrobeats, I'm aware of this debate. However, the current consensus among reliable sources is that Afro-Fusion is merely a synonym for afrobeats at worse, a sub-genre at best. More sources will need to establish that it's completely distinct before this can be changed in the article. If you're able to provide some, by all means do so. Madbrad200 (talk) 16:05, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

References

Afrobeats: Nigeria music genre.

Lumping every genre into one and call it afrobeats origin makes no sense. Afroswing is a word I have never heard before until recently. I think if you look at the word origin it means where something is made. Afrobeats without question is a genre created from “Fela Kuti” afrobeat genre.

The Nigeria afrobeats music genre has already been established in Nigeria where music are being mixed and produced. No other country in the world can make afrobeats music expect Nigerians and other countries who recently claim they are part of the origin are not even origin in terms of making the sound. They have to come to Nigera and hire a Nigeria producers who understand the science in making of Afrobeats.

I’m not a writer or historian. What i am is a Nigerian who live in this moment and times and we all as Nigerians know this is a movement. This is why our artist since the early 2000 and before that make their music and take it all over Africa including Ghana.

Now here is where things get interesting: when artist like 2face. P square and dbanj was dominating the music scene in Africa. There is no single ghanian artist making the same sound as Nigeria artist. Not one. Yes 9ja artist go to Ghana just like artist go to other countries to sell and promote Nigeria culture and heritage.

Ghanian artist like sarkodie who is mention make unique sound that’s derive from ghanian dancehall and highlife. And the ghanian music scene focus more on rap and dance hall. This is why the biggest artist making afrobeats today are not from ghana or any other nation but from Nigeria and will continue to be because afrobeats is a way of life. Is a Nigeria style and swag. It has nothing to do with any other nation in Africa. Less than 10years ago everyone knows Ghanaian to be a hip life and dancehall culture. They even dress and talk like Jamiaca because most of their music are similar in that regard.

The success of afrobeats have been a huge topic of debate since the success of Davido, burna boy tems wizkid, Rema, ckay to new a few and by the way these are all Nigeria artist.

A few scroll through social media like YouTube. You can see evidence of Africans calling a ban on Nigeria music because of its popularity and how it take over 80% of their local AirPlay and this include Ghana lead by Ghana. This bring me to the question I ask if indeed ghana is part creator of afrobeats why did they call for a ban on Nigeria music if the two countries does the same music? Another question why is ghana claiming part origin to a genre that they themselves can not make or have the ingredients to make.

Now let me tell you my own observations and theory of what I have come to understand about the Ghanaian music industry and artist mainly. They have not take the time to develop their own hip life and dancehall culture to produce a unique sound that will flow nicely with any ghanian tune or language.

For example. One major element of singing afrobeats is by the use of pidgin and Nigeria language mainly Yoruba at the moment but you will be hearing a lot more as afrobeats get bigger and bigger. Here I make an example of the difference of why Nigeria is the creator of afrobeats. When it come to the lyrics use in afrobeats. Nigerians tends to use Africans words that are popular and meaningful regardless of the culture and country but when this is done the artist always give credits to where the word came from. I give you examples. The word banku is a ghanian word and artist like mr eazi and wizkid made it popular in Nigeria but give credit to ghana. And this also reflect on the afrobeats sound. Nigeria have always maintain that the sound was influenced by many genre from west Africa. But when it comes to the origin of the genre is Nigeria. All these are fact I know the music historian in Nigerian and Ghana if they are honest can put together. Because if two countries is claiming a genre no matter how great it is. It does take away one culture genre and I’m sorry In this case I see ghanians losing their heritage because they can’t seem to understand that by claiming afrobeats you are automatically calling yourself Nigerians. Now you have to act like Nigerians and dress like Nigerian and talk like Nigeria to sell your music. Is this really what you call origin. Because Nigeria will dominate the music scene for years to come.

Let me use this media to address something quick. Pidgin English which is a strong component of making afrobeats originate from Nigeria. Yes some Africa’s speak pidgin but no Africa’s until now is proud to speak pidgin expect Nigerians. Countries like Cameroon live close to Nigera from the south speak pidgin because of Nigera influence. Same goes to ghanians. The pidgin they speak today was learn from their exchange with Nigerians. And this is documents and in terms of promoting pidgin our movie industry have done a great job promoting Nigeria culture and pidgin to the rest of Africa and the world. So as you can see the Main languages use in afrobeats are in Nigerians DNA. I’m saying this now because tomorrow after many decade and most nations in Africa are speaking pidgin fluently like us they will come and claim part creator of pidgin also.

I applaud South Africa and other nations who are using this opportunity created by Nigerians through afrobeats to develop their sounds like amapiano. I hope to see Africans rise and dominate together with our unique culture and styles.

Let’s say no to lumping. Saying afrobeats is from Africa is like saying Africa is a country. Is not let’s not be allowing ourselves to be use by big corporations by lumping everything as one. Fight for your hip life. Develop it and trust Nigerians to jump on it and make it global. You see this is call collaboration don’t confuse it for originator.

One more point I like to point out is : you hear artist from ghana like shatta wale and stonebwoy talking about we (Ghanaian) needs to learn from the Nigerians. My question is why will they want to go learn that which they claim to be part creator. It makes absolute no sense. This is people who want to insert themselves in history. Until recently most of this country’s have a negative ideas and things to say about nigeria but the minute we make something good they want a part of it without working for it just because we are all Africans. 9jaforlife (talk) 09:51, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia exists to summarize published WP:Reliable sources. The foundation must come from WP:SECONDARY sources. You can share your views on the topic of Afrobeats all day long but if you are not citing published works, you have no leverage here. Binksternet (talk) 14:36, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Afropop / Afrofusion

With the case of Afropop, @Dxneo:, you are correct that that is a term with a much wider meaning than /just/ afrobeats, however it is also simultaneously true that Afropop is a term used often to specifically refer to Afrobeats (e.g, as a genre name). In much the same way "Afrotrap" both refers to Afroswing (an alternative name for the British genre), Afrotrap (a French genre), a generic name for African-produced trap music, afrobeats with trap influences, etc - so it isn't without precedent that a genre label can apply to distinct sounds. Hence, to answer your question, I don't believe that saying Afropop can = Afrobeats, also requires one to believe Afropop must ALWAYS = afrobeats, yet it is undoubtedly true that the genre is often called simply Afropop and therefore it's worth mentioning in the lede as an alternative name.

Some sources for this claim: ("Burna Boy is one of the biggest stars associated with Afrobeats (also known as Afropop):"), ("t's a source of some irritation that what he calls his "Afro pop" is termed "Afro beats" in the UK, when "what we do now sounds totally different", article from 2012 from when 'afrobeats' was not yet the main term used to describe this music), ("with its constant genre-blending and reinvention, the most accurate term to describe the wave of music flowing out of Nigeria and Ghana is Afropop"), ("afropop (or afrobeats as it’s mostly referred to)")

Now afrofusion is, in my opinion, significantly less debatable than afropop is. Afrofusion as a term has been used to describe various things (like afropop), but with regards to afrobeats is specifically gained popular usage as an alternative name for the genre..

Not mentioning either in the article that they are used as alternative names for the genre is leaving out important information. Perhaps a note after-the-fact to clarify they have other associations is worthwhile, but I don't agree with their removal.

HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 02:57, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Afropiano

Hello Harry, my concern was not on "early", afropiano was not found in 2010s because amapiano was only known in Gauteng (mainly Pretoria) when it was first created in early 2010s, MDU aka TRP introduced Log drum to the genre somewhere around 2018 and that's when amapiano became a national genre in South Africa. It was popularized by the likes of Kabza de Small, DJ Maphorisa, MFR Souls and Vigro Deep just to mention a few, thus Kabza de Small and DJ Maphorisa commenced their series of studio albums Scorpion Kings (2019) and former mentioned musicians released their projects too. How was afropiano founded in 2010s when amapiano wasn't a complete genre 'til 2018? Make it make sense and please present (green) reliable sources to back your statements. dxneo (talk) 01:34, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough, if that's the case, then I misinterpreted your reversion (also, I did not notice you had originally changed 'portmanteau' which yes I agree is better phrasing) as upon seeing it, I saw that I had copied in the wrong word (early) there which completely changed the meaning of that particular sentence - but if that wasn't the crux of the issue (as it seems it wasn't) then fair play. For what it's worth, I was tidying up the paragraph originally written by User:Bernadine okoro. In either case, this particular point seems to be mentioned in the second paragraph anyhow ("In the early 2020s, Afropiano became one of the most popular..."). HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 04:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Afropop

Hello @HarrySONofBARRY. African popular music ( also referred to as Afropop, Afro-pop or Afro pop). Is an umbrella term used to describe various and all genres of the African continent's 54 countries. Hence even as a "genre" it can't be solely or predominantly exclusively categorized as afrobeats/s or in this case as you previously stipulated , a "other name"/ another name.

For instance solely to illustrate and further reiterate besides the standalone article;

• "Meet Hika the rising queen of Afro-pop" - [1]

• "Afropop darling Zahara..." - [2]
• "'A different Azana': Afro-pop artist gives insight on new record Igagu" - [3]
• "Zimbabwe: Mtukudzi Inducted Into Afropop Hall of Fame" - [4]
• "The 40 Best Afropop songs of 2022" - [5]

In conclusion, Afropop ≠ afrobeats especially not as, "other name". Qaqaamba (talk) 14:33, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

• Afropop definition and meaning - [6] (Merriam-Webster
• Afropop definition and meaning - [7] ( Collins English Dictionary)
• "AFROPOP — A catch-all term casting a wide net over the diverse musical approaches originating and dominating from Africa" - [8] (Rolling Stone)
• "Afro-Pop is a catch-all term encompassing the rich variety of contemporary African music styles -- typically urban, electric dance music. As each of Africa's 54 countries lays claim to dozens of distinct languages and musical traditions, Afro-Pop is a blanket description of the continent's many diverse styles, from Algerian rai to Senegalese mbalax to East African taarab." - [9]
• "Afro pop - for 15 years "AfroPop the Ultimate Cultural Exchange has featured contemporary stories reflecting the spirit ,ingenuity and resilience found among people of the African Diaspora", (Black Public Media) - AfroPop the Ultimate Cultural Exchange , Seasons 1 -15 ; [10]
• "Afropop: The Pulse of a Continent’s Musical Legacy" - [11]
• "Afropop Expert Georges Collinet's Favorite Tunes Collinet is one of the foremost experts on African Pop music and perhaps the best-known broadcaster on the African continent. He shares his personal playlist as part of Tell Me More's series, 'In Your Ear.'" - [12] (NPR)

https://www.britannica.com/art/African-popular-music (Encyclopædia Britannica)

https://sites.ualberta.ca/~michaelf/African%20Music_Site/AfricanPopularMusicCollins.htm (University of Alberta) , Professor John Collins (2002) Qaqaamba (talk) 21:56, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The existence of other usages of the term "afropop" was already addressed in the note that you reverted. This does not, in-fact, dispute the fact that "afropop" Is also used as a synonym for Afrobeats, as the sources I've linked suggest. Once again: other, unrelated, meanings of a term are not relevant to this article. What is relevant is how it is used in relation to afrobeats. For Nigeria, Afrobeats IS pop music, hence it is often simply called Afropop. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 22:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Afro rave

Hello @HarrySONofBARRY. South African artist, Toya Delazy "coined" or came up with the term - as well as invented the genre "Afro rave", not as per stipulated in this article. Additionally, the genre appeared to be created/ publicized as far back as 2019, which appears to be direct contradiction in regards to evidence presented as year(s), 2021/2022. Please see: [13] . Is it a case of unintentional genre mislabeling/ misidentification? Furthermore, how will the edit be clarified in order to not appear to be misleading to readers? Qaqaamba (talk) 07:38, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello, thank you for raising this. Firstly, I would caution reading too much into "Afrorave" being a subgenre. It's a small comment meant to further illustrate artists distancing themselves from the afrobeats moniker, versus a deeper exploration of an entire subgenre. It's perhaps more accurately referred to as a sub-style of afrobeats, and its addition in this article isn't super important to be honest (or rather, its mention of being a 'subgenre' could perhaps be removed harmlessly, as it's not the focus and it isn't widely picked up). If we read Rema's take on it https://www.rollingstone.co.uk/music/features/rema-music-interview-22177/: "Afro-rave is my perception of Afrobeats, it’s a sub-genre. It includes the melody, delivery and diversity and its flexibility to maintain its own stance, sound-wise, in any beats pattern and outside Afro. So yeah, that’s Afro-rave"

He's basically just describing his personal musical style there and not really a full on genre. Elsewhere he notes his Arabian etc influences, but ultimately it's still just afrobeats. Is this any different than artists just calling their music "afrofusion", "afropop", "afrowave" etc? The reason I raise this is because it's quite different to what Toya is doing.

Anywho, that's mostly an aside. The point is that Rema's "afrorave" is just a name for his style of Afrobeats. If we hop over to Toya, https://www.musicinafrica.net/magazine/interview-sas-toya-delazy-her-new-musical-direction-afrorave-vol-1 "her new sound adds ’Afro-rave’, which she defines as an unapologetic alternative African genre that celebrates indigenous languages through rave music, which includes “left-field bass, techno, and drum and bass.”

This sounds fundamentally different to what Rema is doing (or claiming). Therefore, I do not agree that they are the same or really trying to be the same thing, nor are describing the same "genre". Just another case of two different sounds co-opting the same name, perhaps (most likely) accidentally. You can see similar examples of this with an earlier debate on this page: Afropop. In Nigerian context, it's often used as a synonym for Afrobeats. In a wider context, it's used to describe a ton of different things. Also see Afrotrap (a French genre, not to be confused with the British genre called Afrotrap, both of which are quite different from one another).

To summarise: I think it's clear these are describing different things despite sharing a name, howerever, upon looking into this more deeply, referring to "afrorave" as a "subgenre" purely off of a single artists description is perhaps misleading, and it should probably just be rephrased into something like "Rema calls his personal style 'Afrorave'". HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 01:58, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Instances of contradiction or the sort:

• 9 October 2019 ; "Toya Delazy is creating her own genre called Afro-rave, and she says it’s the future" - [14]
• 25 May 2021 ; "Rema Claims His Genre is Afrorave" - [15]
• 21 June 2021 ; "Brits thrilled by Toya Delazy’s Zulu rave" - [16]
• 1 September 2021; "Rema, the Nigerian star bringing ‘Afro-rave’ from Benin City to the world" - [17] (UK publication)
• 6 December 2023; "But his calling is to take Afro Rave global" - [18] (UK publication)
• Toya Delazy appears to be based in London - "London-based South African artist Toya Delazy" - [19]

Instances of controversy:

• 14 November 2022 ; "Afrorave, the genre founded by Toya Delazy, has been appropriated by a major male Afrobeats artist in Nigeria. Multiple media sources, including the Rolling Stone magazine have misreported the story; claiming him to be the founder. " - [20]

Qaqaamba (talk) 07:02, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

@HarrySONofBARRY. Regarding what you appear to describe as music/ genres with the same title - by definition and purpose a music genre usually specifically categorizes and is used to identify music or musical pieces belonging to an "already" set of conventions or tradition etc. In my personal opinion, "re-creating" a genre with the exact same title of an already established or created genre, obviously leads to not only confusion however even a form of disregard/ disrespect towards innovator(s) as well as artists who were / are already publishing that set tradition style beforehand. Furthermore, could even appear to be quite malisciously controversial, exploitative and/or reason being due to ignorance of the mentioned former or lack of creativity. For instance, I have never encountered a Russian musician claiming a genre/ sound titled "afrobeats" or "afrobeat" however insisting it's two totally different things.

Off topic: Afropop is not and has never been a genre, it is an umbrella term to describe African popular music and all the various genres from different African countries or majorly African pop music (which even in this case would refer to solely contemporary music), however as per data and genre tags, a genre may still need to be explicitly further categorized or identified as what exactly it is, especially if it is not within the scope of the pop genre itself.

On topic:

Additional controversy / contradiction:

• 3 August 2020 ; "How Toya Delazy carved out her own path and created a unique sound" - [21]
• 15 September 2022 ; "Rema opens up on creating afro rave sound +.." - [22]

Qaqaamba (talk) 07:33, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello,

The crux of your argument is solely based around that there simply cannot be multiple sounds that share the same name. I'm not sure how else to say this: that is just demonstratively and clearly false, as shown above. It's very clear that what Toya calls "afro-rave" is not at all related to what Rema is calling "afro-rave" (I mean, just read their own descriptions of their respective "genres"....). Just like it is also very clear that what MHD called "afro-trap" has nothing to do with the British "afro-trap" sound (aka Afroswing). Just like how Hardcore has nothing to do with Hardcore. Or how like Jump up has absolutely nothing to do with Jump up. It is absolutely not the case that you cannot have multiple genres that share the same name, as all of these examples (and the ones in this very article) showcase. It's simply false, and it's very clear that Rema and Toya are not doing the same thing, claiming to be doing the same thing, or even trying to be doing the same thing. Their "afro-rave's" are different.

Ultimately, our personal views in this matter really aren't important here. It's just a simple fact that Humans re-use names for different things. You see this in other spheres as well, it's not unique to music. It is absolutely the case that names get re-used.

The great irony behind this argument is this very article itself: how many people refer to afrobeats as simply "afrobeat"? It's so common that there's an entire discussion about it on the page. Afrobeat already exists, and yet people refer to modern pop as afrobeat. Names get re-used. Such is the reality of Human language. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 17:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Your presumption examples display major title differentiations and not explicitly "exactly the same name" as how you've displayed and what appears to be specifically linked, them above :

• Hardcore punk (commonly abbreviated to hardcore) - [23]
• Hardcore (also known as hardcore techno) - [24]
• Bouyon soca (sometimes referred to as Jump up soca) -[25]
• Jump up also appears to not be the designated predominant title for any musical genre however more a moniker as per ([26]) , it is a nickname for Drum and bass (commonly abbreviated as DnB, D&B, or D'n'B) - [27]

Qaqaamba (talk) 18:20, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Afroswing doesn't appear to have any/ former sources ( not even via search engine results) explictly titling it or sometimes implying/ referring to it as "Afro trap" either ,one source stipulates that it (afro trap) is sometimes referred to as afro bashment . In addition, it appears (same source) before it (afro swing) was officially titled/ differentiated from afro trap it was being referred to as afro trap or afro bashment [28]. - not that it is another/ shared name or title for afroswing.

26 May 2018 : "Whether you call it afroswing, afrowave, or afrobashment – it's the new sound of the UK" - [29]

Afroswing and afro trap are two entirely different as well as divergent titled, genres. The relation appears to be that Afro trap is a derivative or parent genre of afroswing. No relation in explicitly being titled, exactly the same. Qaqaamba (talk) 18:58, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Afrotrap, afroswing, afrobashment - all alternative names for the same thing. That's uh explicitly what those sources are saying. You're splitting hairs at this point and we're diverging from what's actually important, which is that sources clearly demonstrate that Rema's Afrorave is what he calls his style of afrobeats, and Toya's afrorave is a completely different genre all-to-gether. It does not appear we're getting past this impasse so I will inquire a third party to solve this. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 20:27, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

"Afrotrap, afroswing, afrobashment - all alternative names for the same thing." ~ @HarrySONofBARRY. Is untrue.

• Pioneer and originator of Afro trap (MHD (rapper)) ; "The French rapper continues his signature ‘Afro trap’ sound on his third album, blending West African pop and western rap" - [30], [31]
• Pioneers and originators of Afroswing (J Hus) ; "J Hus, the British rapper-singer and “Afroswing” pioneer, has been a mainstay of British rap for years", [32], "It’s got the core of an African tune in the melody – that’s where the ‘afro’ comes from – then you’ve got the mixture of drums from R&B and dancehall and that’s what the ‘swing’ stands for. The genre of swinging and building on each other.” (Kojo Funds) ,[33].

Providing sources as well as facts, in regards to edits and stipulations are not what you refer to as "splitting hairs".

Afrorave

The main point is that different green sources stipulate the genre as having being originated by two different artists who appear to have no affiliation whatsoever from two totally different countries. As per above even the differentiation between sound and genre has been blurred. What appears needs solving is the edit stipulating that Rema (musician) coined the term, when a green source with a timestamp prior to clearly displays that Toya Delazy, did. In addition, please refer to Talk:Rema (musician). Qaqaamba (talk) 20:49, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello, afrotrap being an alternative name is, in-fact, sourced multiple times in the article (both this one and the Afroswing article https://www.thefader.com/2017/10/25/new-afro-trap-playlist https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/team-salut-raise-the-bar-interview ). It has absolutely nothing to do with MHD's "afrotrap", which have similar but distinct origins and sounds. Absolutely 0 sources link the two as related, and your above quoted passages do not suggest as such either. In either case, splitting hairs or not, we ARE running in circles and a third-party would be the optimal method of solving this dispute. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 20:56, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Just to commend on your last point, because I forgot to do so, but this could easily be solved by employing the method I attempted with "Afropop" - literally just add a note explaining that it's used elsewhere in another context. E.g, "Not to be confused with Afrorave, a genre created by Toya....". This explicitly clarifies they are A) not related B) distinct from one another. With regards to the termed "coined", it's really not important in this article anyway. As I stated above, that entire sentence could just be simply rephrased: "Rema calls his sound Afrowave, a .....". HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 21:28, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Your suggested edit method appears to still confuse , mislead or disinform the reader. Hypothetically speaking visualize ;

• "Afrorave vs. Afrorave" (both musical genres as a topic) or if an Afrorave genre is added to a streaming site, what happens with the playlists and genre tags? It is not used elsewhere in another context ( a different context would be as the example of afro fusion below, such as a cuisine).
• The current circumstance is an 'already' publicized (whether locally or internationally) musical genre which appears to have been titled as the exact same name by another African artist, as well as publications presumably claiming/ publishing someone else as the founding father and genre description completely different opposed to Toya Delazy, the originator's, description.
• The originator and who coined the term/ a genre is highly and should be fundamentally important. Given the circumstances, the edit needs to be altered in a manner which is insightful to the reader, fits the benefits and purpose of the encyclopedia however not disregarding the originator, whether mentioned or not.

Envision case scenario : "Stipulating that Fela Kuti is not important as the pioneer/ or shoud be disregarded as coining the term afrobeat because Michael Jackson has described his sound as afrobeat too and the sounds are distinct from one another ." Especially when there is no/ a standalone article would what appears to be a tricky perhaps even exceededly controversial task given the circumstances.

• Afrowave has also been referred to as another title for Afroswing. ([34] ) Which appears to be offtopic.

Qaqaamba (talk) 23:05, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Afro fusion

@HarrySONofBARRY. Afro fusion can't be another /"other name" for afrobeat/s due to it being an entirely different genre, nevermind what appears not having any significant affiliation to afrobeat/s.

For instance:

• 24 August 2023 ; " Why I created afro-fusion genre – Burna Boy" , In addition, "Grammy-winning Nigerian singer, Damini Ogulu, aka Burna Boy, has claimed that he pioneered a new genre of music called afrofusion because he did not want to be boxed into the popular West African genre, afrobeats. In an interview with American media outlet, Complex, the self-styled “African Giant” said he does not believe in genres. Burna Boy said, “Afrofusion is a big melting pot of cultures and sounds. Afrofusion is not a box." [35]
• 1 February 2013; " Freshlyground – Refreshing music hailing from South Africa", In addition, "Cape Town – Their music is dubbed Afro-pop or Afro-fusion, it is original and incredibly enjoyable to listen to. The style combines certain elements of traditional South African music with blues, jazz and a spoonful of indie rock."

**Afro-fusion as a dance genre ; [36]

**Afro fusion as a cuisine ; "This chef visited 48 African countries to create a new ‘Afro-fusion’ cuisine" ( [37]). Qaqaamba (talk) 14:51, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Both of these terms were properly sourced throughout the article. I elaborated here the last time it was reverted and nobody disputed it https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Afrobeats/Archive_1#Afropop_/_Afrofusion both of these names are widely used, explicitly, in a variety of sources as alt names for afrobeats. I even re-added it with a compromise of a note that explained its wider usage unique from afrobeats! I will copy my previous comment for easy reading:

With the case of Afropop, it is also simultaneously true that Afropop is a term used often to specifically refer to Afrobeats (e.g, as a genre name). In much the same way "Afrotrap" both refers to Afroswing (an alternative name for the British genre), Afrotrap (a French genre), a generic name for African-produced trap music, afrobeats with trap influences, etc - so it isn't without precedent that a genre label can apply to distinct sounds. Hence, to answer your question, I don't believe that saying Afropop can = Afrobeats, also requires one to believe Afropop must ALWAYS = afrobeats, yet it is undoubtedly true that the genre is often called simply Afropop and therefore it's worth mentioning in the lede as an alternative name.

Some sources for this claim: ("Burna Boy is one of the biggest stars associated with Afrobeats (also known as Afropop):"), ("t's a source of some irritation that what he calls his "Afro pop" is termed "Afro beats" in the UK, when "what we do now sounds totally different", article from 2012 from when 'afrobeats' was not yet the main term used to describe this music), ("with its constant genre-blending and reinvention, the most accurate term to describe the wave of music flowing out of Nigeria and Ghana is Afropop"), ("afropop (or afrobeats as it’s mostly referred to)")

Now afrofusion is, in my opinion, significantly less debatable than afropop is. Afrofusion as a term has been used to describe various things (like afropop), but with regards to afrobeats is specifically gained popular usage as an alternative name for the genre..

Not mentioning either in the article that they are used as alternative names for the genre is leaving out important information. Perhaps a note after-the-fact to clarify they have other associations is worthwhile, but I don't agree with their removal.

Whether or not these names have OTHER, distinct, usages is not really relevant (beyond, of course, clarifying with a note). What's important is that a variety of sources use these terms specifically as alt names for Afrobeats.

Now, referring to afrofusion NOT as an alt name but rather, a subgenre, is a discussion that's been had before. If enough sources can be gathered that support that claim, then certainly Afrofusion can be rephrased. This was noted here previously https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Afrobeats/Archive_1#Afrobeats by another user. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 20:30, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The fact is that Afropop is not a genre. Afropop can't be solely used as another name for afrobeats as per reasons above. Afro fusion is a different genre which an apparent distinguished afrobeats artist has stipulated has no affiliation to afrobeats. Nevermind former sources stipulating that genre has no affiliation to Nigerian genres as well as a completely different description. Qaqaamba (talk) 20:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not you personally think Afropop is a genre, the above reliable sources refer to it as such (in reference to an alternative name for afrobeats). Purely off the back of these sources, it should be added to the article as an alternative name. How other people use it, in other contexts, with other meanings, does not take away from the fact that in a Nigerian, afrobeats context, is is often used (by multiple reliable sources) as an alternative name.

With afrofusion, I do believe there is room for further debate in light of it possibly being a subgenre (instead of just an alt name), but there are a great many, many sources that explicitly link it to afrobeats either as a subgenre or alt name. See https://web.archive.org/web/20231226235008/https://pitchfork.com/features/podcast/afrobeats-global-takeover/ as one example. You can't just remove information purely on the basis you disagree with the source....

Burna Boy completing rejecting the "afrobeats" moniker is related to the debate already discussed at Afrobeats#Name. Ultimately, if sources don't agree with him then they don't agree HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 21:14, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

• "The Colombian singer’s trilingual “Waka Waka,” featuring Freshlyground — which served as the official FIFA song in 2010 for the World Cup that took place in South Africa — captured fans globally thanks to its irresistible joyful and upbeat style powered by an Afro-fusion and soca-influenced beat." - [38] (Billboard)
• "Their music is dubbed Afro-pop or Afro-fusion, it is original and incredibly enjoyable to listen to. The style combines certain elements of traditional South African music with blues, jazz and a spoonful of indie rock." - [39]
• "Burna Boy on creating afro fusion: “ I didn't want to be boxed in” - [40] (The Guardian (Nigeria)
• "Afro-fusion star Siphokazi chats music hiatus and new project in the pipeline" - [41] (TimesLIVE)
• "Cameroonian singer, Naomi Achu drops Afro-fusion single ‘Waiting All My Life’" - [42] (Vanguard)
• "Kenya, the vibrant melting pot of genres", "Two weeks ago, fans of afro-fusion and folk were treated to energetic performances from acts like Chief Matigari, Ayrosh, Ambasa Mandela, Kwame Rigii, and H_art the Band at the Folk Fusion event in Nairobi." - [43] (The Standard (Kenya)
• "LIVE! A Music Calendar: An Afro-Fusion Affair happens in Bentonville, Brick Fields plays weekend of shows around Northwest Arkansas" - [44] (WEHCO Media)

Qaqaamba (talk) 22:25, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

None of these have anything to do with how afrofusion is used in relation to afrobeats, and the article already covers how some artists use alternative names (such as Afrofusion) in order to avoid using Afrobeats. This is already covered in the article. Spamming sources about completely unrelated things does not actually help your point. We've already discussed how terms can have multiple usages, and how afrofusion relates to afrobeats. Its usage in Kenya is completely unrelated. At this point, you're just talking past me and we are also running in circles. I will refer simply wait for a third-party to enter the convo. Please don't archive this talk page until then, cheers. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 23:10, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The point of this discussion is to introduce or highlight different and new viewpoints or in this case, sources. Afro fusion genre appears to not predominantly historically or currently center around nor originate from afrobeats. Hence why it appears to be contradictory or controversial as "another name"/ "other name" especially in the infobox parameter. Qaqaamba (talk) 23:29, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

We fundamentally disagree on the point that a single name can refer to multiple things. Its usage elsewhere is totally irrelevant. Sources, as displayed above, talk about it in relation to afrobeats. We need to therefore talk about what these sources suggest. You cannot say, "well these sources are wrong and these other sources are more important" and then just wipe the content. It is not contradictory - names get used for different things, and I've offered a compromise in attempt to find a middle ground (in both this and the case with Afrorave) that solves any confusion that might be had by readers, as well as opened up dialogue for possibility of placing Afrofusion elsewhere (e.g a subgenre?). None of this seems acceptable to you. There is no point debating further, let's wait for resolution from a third-party. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Afro house variations, Niniola and Afropiano

Hey Harry there seems to be a problem as to regards to the fusion style Niniola does. The user Qaqaamba can't seem to comprehend that there are two styles of music that can have the exact same name even after the differences have been specified within the article you can clearly see that as to regards to the issue of afro rave above as the user can't seem to differentiate between the south African afro rave and the Nigerian in which Rema claims he sings in but I digress. After including Afrohouse to the list of fusion genre lists within the infobox of the afrobeats page the user would revert the edit claiming that there is “No former milestone or historical references stipulating that the genre is or was a definite fusion genre furthermore there is a section clearly stipulating that the genre was mistaken or mislabeled and there is actually no significant link or relation” I left the user a message here on the users talk page explaining the difference between the two styles of music but when talking with the user I came to realize that the user is bent on only having one style of music with the name “Afrohouse”. When talking to the user the user also went on to imply that the style of music Niniola does is afrobeats the user also went to the infobox of her page to add afrobeats as the first style of music she does which isn't true because Niniola have often said that her style of music is a combination of afrobeats and House and she was quite specific on what she called it which is “Afrohouse”, this is her on Channels TV in an interview calling it Afro house.[45] On Niniola’s page the user also went on to claim that niniola’s style of music is Afropiano and taking out the Afrohouse link which leads readers to the fusion section on afrobeats where it clearly explains and differentiates the style of music she does to readers.

On niniola’s page in the artistry section the user also went on to add a citation to the claim that the style of music she does seems to be Afropiano. It is very crucial to note that this specific source that the user added of her music being afropiano is not a good source when tallking about niniola's sound because afropiano is a fusion of Amapiano and Afrobeats not directly house music as in the case of niniola’s Afrohouse this is a very common mistake a lot of sources make about the early beginnings of afropiano and Niniola's sound. Afropiano is recent it began from the year 2020, Niniolas Afrohouse predates that with her first release of “ibadi” in 2014. When that specific song of hers came out a lot of people in Nigeria often didn’t even call that song afrobeats even the ones that did call it afrobeats would often claim that it was different you can see this in the comment section in her Ibadi song. It was in this sound Niniola in her earlier days would often release a lot of her songs with this was before Amapiano reached Nigeria in 2020 in fact people who didn't know what to call her sound of music would call it "Niniola Type Beat".[46]

Amapiano is a very specific genre of music not just in terms of sound but in terms of its reach within Nigeria so if she was specifically and exclusively mixing Amapiano with Afro beats 3 things would happen:

1. First, she wouldn't hide it (Nigerian artists are not one to hide where they get their inspirations from in terms of sound).

2. Secondly, she would go into detail in what made her and her producer to start mixing a South African genre of music.

3. Thirdly In most of her interviews in her tone she doesn’t talk about south African genres of music in a way that would constitute or imply that she is mixing a south African genre she only speaks about south africa as to regards of her song "Maradona" doing well in south Africa and meeting people there and the fact that South Africa is the only African country that is into house music hence why her song “Maradona” did well in the country.[47] Thats why while being interviewed she calls her style of music "her sound" if she was mixing a south african genre she would have talked about how south africa is the birth place of her sound.

"...outside Nigeria I am so feeling the South Africans, and the way they have accepted my sound."

It’s also important to note that afropiano have 3 key signifiers the first one is an afrobeat’s rhythm the second is a pitched piano chord and third a log drum percussive baseline both being from amapiano. Songs like “Mogbe” by asake “Monalisa” by lojay is a good example of this style of music. Ninola’s style is quite broad and is a direct combination of afrobeats with house hence why this style varies more in sound than afropiano.

Also, the user claimed that her songs have log drums from Amapiano am assuming as a sign to back the claim that niniola’s original sound is afropiano. Most Nigerian songs right now are in afropiano so it makes sense why she also jumped on the sound too in fact she was the first Nigerian to add a log drum percussive baseline in her 2020 song “ADDICTED”. It's also important to note that Log drums alone don't make a song a fusion of or a relation of Amapiano if that’s the case various indigenous West African genres of music are all doing amapiano because if we are being honest log drums are more pervasive in West Africa than in Southern Africa. In terms of afropiano, the afrobeats melodies and rhythms but most importantly the high-pitched piano melodies make it related to Amapiano hence why It's Ama-piano and not Ama-log drums constituting afropiano style of music as a fusion genre. In Niniola's earlier afrohouse works such as "Ibadi" and "Magun" piano melodies and logdrums are absent.

Also the user said this "there is a green source stipulating that the genre was mistaken for afrobeats, UK funky and sometimes even other genres" although i have been on wikepedia since march i don't know what a green source is since am more strictly into writing please can you look into this please and thank you. Bernadine okoro (talk) 22:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I will review this when I have a bit of time but I suspect it may be useful asking for third-parties to intervene in this particular issue. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 17:57, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Alright thank you, i will get to that later Bernadine okoro (talk) 15:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

@Bernadine okoro and @HarrySONofBARRY, "In terms of afropiano, the afrobeats melodies and rhythms but most importantly the high-pitched piano melodies make it related to Amapiano hence why It's Ama-piano and not Ama-log drums", there was never a reason on why it is called amapiano and not ama-log drum. Amapiano musicians (South Africans) did not use log drum until Mdu aka TRP introduced the sound to the genre. FYI, a piano does not make amapiano, the sound has been evolving ever since and now one of the biggest amapiano songs "Mnike" is not heavy on the piano sample, and some of the songs like "Maplankeng" and "Inhliziyo" by Mas Musiq don't even feature log drum. Another thing, afropiano is a blend of amapiano and afrobeats. dxneo (talk) 07:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

There was an article that talked about how piano was important to the genre to the point it either influenced or might have influenced the naming of the genre for the life of me i just spent a few hours looking for that article, and I can't find it but that's regardless to the point I was making. The crux of the matter is that what Niniola called afrohouse before popularization of amapoiano-influenced beats in Nigerian music had nothing to do with amapiano or South African afrohouse. Honestly, this whole section on "Afro-house variations, Niniola and Afropiano" on this talk page can be archived if the user wants the removal of Afro-house within the infobox, etc then so be it. Bernadine okoro (talk) 01:42, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Freebeat (Cruise)

@Qaqaamba: Do you have a reliable source that states that Freebeat (Cruise) is a derivative genre of Afrobeats? I did not read this info in any of the sources cited in the Freebeat (Cruise) section. This particular section is supposed to discuss the Freebeat (Cruise) genre. The way you currently have it, it is about a compilation album by a record label called MOVES Recordings.  Versace1608  ^{Wanna Talk?} 14:28, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

@Versace1608 the paragraph doesn't explicitly state that it's discussing a derivative genre; rather, it focuses on fusion, particularly the amalgamation of afrobeats with other genres.in the "Freebeat" or "Nigerian cruise scope" - the section is titled, Afrobeats#Fusion and derivative genres. There's no prescribed manual or layout dictating how the genre should be approached or documented. If the compilation highlights and showcases publications of the genre as historically significant, especially as the first of its kind, I fail to see what the issue is. Qaqaamba (talk) 14:52, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Answer my question. Do you have a reliable source that states that Freebeat (Cruise) is a fusion/derivative genre of Afrobeats? Look at the other genres in the section. All of them discusses the respective genre; they are not about a non-notable compilation album released by a non-notable record label. If you do not provide a reliable source that specifically states that Freebeat (Cruise) is a fusion/derivative genre of Afrobeats, I will be removing the section all together.  Versace1608  ^{Wanna Talk?} 15:06, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Response seems very personal? Since when is a London-based independent record label that artsists for instance such as Naira Marley are signed to been considered non-notable (according to whom and what)? A newly emerging genre or sub-genre is undoubtedly noteworthy. In this case per sources blended with afrobeats. I fail to understand the issue. Qaqaamba (talk) 15:21, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Create an article about Moves Recording and the compilation album they released and let's see if it won't get deleted. You have failed to answer my question like always. When I get to a computer, I will be remove the section. A compilation album released by Moves Recording isn't vital to the Afrobeats article. The section should be about the genre, not the compilation album.  Versace1608  ^{Wanna Talk?} 17:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I am not interested in your topic diverging, irrelevant or fight-bait chats. I've provided additional context regarding the genre and the significance of the compilation. At present, there are no articles for MOVES Recordings or cruise and according to WP: MNA, this compilation marks the genre's initial compilation. The inclusion of the other two songs mentioned aligns with the scope of being the genre's first published bodies of work, featuring afrobeats artists like Portable and Olamide. Should you choose to remove it, I will add it back in. Qaqaamba (talk) 17:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Versace1608. The only sources provided (and ones I googled) all seem to suggest freebeat is an alternative to the zeitgeist of Afrobeats, but none of them are suggesting it's derivative or a fusion of afrobeats. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 15:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

HarrySONofBARRY I understand your point and then here it stipulates "Some Afrobeats melodies", both Portable and Olamide ("Zazoo Zehh") - ("but with superstars like Olamide catching on, as on cruise-tinged hit ZaZoo Zehh, crossover success may beckon") - seem to primarily identify as afrobeats artists, additionally "It may even be considered Afrobeats' punk rock moment". The rock article includes a section on the punk rock movement and there's also the subculture one could refer to. This implies the need for an entirely new section then, what should the title be? "Zeitgeist of Afrobeats", is not it, fam. "Punk rock moment within Afrobeats"? Qaqaamba (talk) 16:28, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate your openness to discussion. Yeah I saw those quotes, I dunno, it feels a bit flimsy at the moment. I'm not like, hard against it, but I wouldn't put it in personally. I think it might just be a bit too early, seems very early days for this genre. Alte suffered a similar problem - took awhile for good sources to come around.

A sub-section about people shifting away from afrobeats and towards alternative movements such as this and the aforementioned Alte movement would be a good addition to the page, for sure. HarrySONofBARRY (talk) 01:44, 27 May 2024 (UTC)