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A Work in Progress

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I have added this page as a work in progress. More text as well as more external links will be added soon. Dan D. Ric 13:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Plans

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Now that I've gotten the basics under control my plans are to add some images, then rewrite all sections to improve readability and add specific citations. Dan D. Ric 09:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Added a bit more to this. I still need to get some dates and notes in, though. Intothatdarkness (talk) 20:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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Recent Renaming

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Was this change actually discussed anywhere? ARA is not a generic term, but rather a designation used by the Army for certain units during a specific period of time. If there WAS discussion, why wasn't a notice and link posted (at the very least) on this page? Intothatdarkness 13:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, there is no evidence of any discussion, or any sourcing to support it. As you note, it's an obscure term, not a generic one, and only applied in this narrow context. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:01, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So why did the move take place? It feels like it's MOS overriding RS. ARA units were only active with two divisions, and even then only during the Vietnam War. It would be more proper in my view to leave the capitalization in place. Intothatdarkness 14:24, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I thought it being overwhelmingly lowercase in sources would mean it would be a routine uncontroversial case fix. Dicklyon (talk) 15:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An example book source here caps it when defining the acronym ARA, but otherwise always uses lowercase. It's not talking about a different subject than what our article is about. Dicklyon (talk) 15:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Counting Google nhits, especially for a term which has such an obvious generic sense, is not WP:RS. TBH, I'm surprised just how common ARA shows up to be in that analysis compared to ara, given the overwhelmingly generic (and irrelevant here) nature of the term.
Also 'controversial' does not mean what you are using it to mean. It means likely to engender controversy. It does not mean 'right' or 'I definitely think it's right' it means 'other people are likely to disagree'. Now even accepting (as you've told us often enough) that we're just the little people with our little, unimportant opinions and we have no right to question you, then get over yourself. You are not the arbiter here. We still work by WP:CONSENSUS, and you are still going to have to respect that. Which means that you will have to go to the effort of WP:BLUDGEONing each decision one by one, not just citing WP:THINGS I HAVE ALREADY BLUDGEONED as precedent and WP:POLICY. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Dicklyon, I find the reliance on Google for this kind of thing disturbing, especially since this article concerns both a concept AND a very specific unit designation. That's why you see ARA as opposed to lowercase. It's not the same thing as Armed helicopter, as is explained in the lede and elsewhere. It's also good practice to put something on the talk page explaining your rationale and sources supporting the move, even (or perhaps especially) if you think it's not controversial. Otherwise it can make the move appear both arbitrary and capricious. Intothatdarkness 16:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The great majority of sources treat this as a generic concept, even if a couple of units were designated as ARA units. Most capitalization is for defining the acronym. I don't see how it can be considered a proper name, but I'll be happy to look at sources if you have some that make that point more clear. Dicklyon (talk) 16:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The main point is that your process is broken, or at the very least can appear arbitrary and based solely on your opinions. I would have thought you'd gather that based on the amount of controversy many of your renamings appear to have sparked across a wide range of subjects. The practice of "move first, defend later" doesn't feel very open to consensus to me. Intothatdarkness 17:03, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CONSENSUS DOES NOT APPLY HERE Andy Dingley (talk) 18:08, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody is trying to capitalise a generic term 'aerial rocket artillery' where that is referring to a generic concept. That's not what this article is about. This article is about some US units tasked for it, that were referred to by that specific and capitalised name. Will you be going after the 31st Regiment of Foot next? Andy Dingley (talk) 18:07, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's the name of a unit, so, no, I wouldn't "go after" that. Are there units with "Aerial Rocket Artillery" in their name? I haven't been able to find a source that supports that. And in any case, are you saying we should capitalize Regiment of foot? Dicklyon (talk) 00:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Dicklyon, is there no policy or behavioural guideline that you won't break in order to push your crusade against capitalisation? You reformat people's talk: page entries, you interject your comments into the middle of them, and now you're inventing actions just to ascribe them to me.
No, we should not capitalise regiment of foot. It is a generic term. We should capitalise 31st Regiment of Foot, as the same term is being used as part of a proper name. This makes a difference. Andy Dingley (talk) 07:56, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly so. And by the same reasoning, we should not capitalize aerial rocket artillery, right? Dicklyon (talk) 15:40, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Intothatdarkness, my process is pretty well aligned with guidelines, I think. There was no reason to have expected this move would be controversial. Compare the rest of my 100 moves of the last 30 days. Two or three have been objected to and reverted, but I was not able to predict which ones might get this kind of objection. Per WP:BRD, with the small fraction of my bold moves that have been reverted, we discuss. It would not be practical to have a discussion before every case-fix move, given how many WP articles are created by editors who don't know that our policy is to use sentence case, not title case, or editors who think their important topics ought to be capitalized even though they're not proper names. So I fix a lot of those, routinely, mostly without any pushback. Since you objected here, and Andy had the move reverted, I'm happy to discuss. But the issue is the capitalization of this article title, not my process, which has been proven to be better than 95% accurate. My collection of precedents is just to summarize (over a much longer time span) how those few discussions turned out. I must say I find the intransigence of a couple of military editors is a bit bewildering, and very frustrating. But I'm listening. If there's something in sources that implies capitalization necessary for "Aerial Rocket Artillery" when it refers to the topic of this article, I'd like to see it. Maybe I'll learn something and give it up. Or should we go straight to RM? Dicklyon (talk) 01:53, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At this stage you seem totally convinced with the correctness of your position. I must say I find your insistence on this (to use your own words) "a bit bewildering, and very frustrating." But to return to this: Shelby Stanton's Vietnam Order of Battle (p 101) lists the full unit title for 2/20 Artillery as "2nd Battalion, 20th Artillery (Aerial Rocket)". It is capitalized. You'll also note that I normally used ARA in the article, which is a standard (capitalized) abbreviation for these units and their associated (unique) mission. Maybe you learned something from that, or maybe not. But based on what I saw in the discussions around capitalizing Western when it related to the literary and film genre I suspect this will turn into a long, drawn-out "death by process bludgeoning." Some might derive satisfaction from that. I do not. Those military editors who you find bewildering might be experts in their fields, who in turn find your insistence in following Wiki's often arbitrary or frankly bizarre MOS conventions bewildering when RS clearly indicate something different. Intothatdarkness 00:43, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's great. I would definitely capitalize these words in the unit name 2nd Battalion, 20th Artillery (Aerial Rocket). I don't see how that supports your objection to lowercase aerial rocket artillery. Dicklyon (talk) 15:43, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's ANY unit designated as ARA, not just 2/20. I object because the concept really applies in practice to only these units. Other armed helicopters were called attack helicopters or gunships, and the command and control arrangements were different as well. Having Aerial Rocket Artillery capitalized in the title doesn't hurt anything except your interpretation of policy but does recognize the unique role of these units as well as the fact that they were the only ARA units ever fielded. Intothatdarkness 16:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I would capitalize those words in ANY unit designation (all 3 of the words, in all 3 of the units, like the Army does). But the current article says it's a type of unit, which it is; in a name, cap it. But "having Aerial Rocket Artillery capitalized in the title" hurts because it screams "this is a proper name", making one wonder, name of what? It's not. Dicklyon (talk) 22:44, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't hurt any normal reader who's just looking to find the article. The only thing it hurts is a particular interpretation of Wikipedia's rather nonsensical MOS. Intothatdarkness 00:36, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I accept that you prefer to capitalize important phrases, just as some sources do, depending on their style. You should continue to do so in your own writings, if that's your preferred style. But in WP, we have our own style, rooted originally in the technical necessities of being able to link things in sentences, which is why we use titles in sentence case. Personally, I find the style perfectly sensible and coherent, even if not the most common or favorite style for everyone. I'm sorry you see it as rather nonsensical; I can see why that would detract from your enjoyment in Wikipedia collaboration with editors like me who feel differently about it. Not much I can do to help there, sorry. Dicklyon (talk) 05:24, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Especially when editors like yourself are dogmatic about anything related to their particular interpretation of MOS and condescending to anyone who doesn't agree with that particular point of view. And people wonder why Wikipedia has difficulty retaining editors with subject expertise. Intothatdarkness 17:06, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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